Episode 95 - The Watch(es?) of Everest

Published on Wed, 19 Aug 2020 23:59:00 -0700

Synopsis

The hosts discuss the controversy and debate surrounding the first watch to summit Mount Everest in 1953. They go over the details of Edmund Hillary and Tenzing Norgay's historic climb, and the competing claims made by Rolex and Smiths over which brand's watch was actually worn during the final summit push. They analyze the marketing campaigns, statements from the companies, and available evidence, ultimately concluding that while Rolex was certainly involved in the expedition, the evidence suggests Smiths was more likely the first watch brand to make the summit.

Toward the end, the hosts diverge into tangents about potentially doing an adventure race together in the future, and Andrew asserts that Nicki Minaj's verse on the Kanye West song "Monster" is the greatest hip-hop verse of all time.

Transcript

Speaker
Andrew Hello, fellow watch lovers, nerds, enthusiasts, or however you identify. This is 1420 The Watch Clicker Podcast with your hosts, Andrew and my good friend Everett. Here, we talk about watches, food, drinks, life, and other things we like. Everett, how are you?
Everett I'm so good. Go Blazers. Go Blazers. Go Blazers. What a good finish too. Oh my gosh. You know what? Those guys, there's no reason they should win that game. In fact, I felt like they got destroyed the entire game. And I think that we only didn't have the lead for, I don't know, two minutes, the whole stinking game neighborhood of that.
Andrew I didn't watch. I didn't watch the game as you got to, but I watched the on ESPN. Just hit. Just pulled refresh. Just pull down, pull down, pull down. Yeah. Yeah.
Everett For most of the game and game cast or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. So we're talking about game one of the Portland Los Angeles Lakers series. Just watched game one. So it's Tuesday evening, kind of late.
Andrew Kind of. Dude, I've been, I've fallen asleep twice tonight.
Everett I'm sorry. And I appreciate you. I appreciate you respecting the decision to watch the game in full.
Andrew One of the times my wife came in and woke me up and she's like, you need to get up. And I was like, for what? She's like, you're recording tonight. I was like, what am I recording? She's like, you record a podcast tonight.
Everett Well, you know, that's that's how it goes. But yeah, other than that, I'm really good. We did our backpacking trip this last weekend, which was a blast. Looked like fun. Super fun, man. You know, we're sort of inexperienced backpackers, so I don't think that the trip was particularly in terms of backpacking. I don't think the trip was particularly technical or challenging, but
Andrew It was a good recreational backpacking trip.
Everett Yeah, I think for a couple of middle-aged parents with very little backpacking experience, it was in terms of three-day trips you could do up there, you know? And even like, I think, you know, some of these backpacking websites rate this as a difficult trail, right? So there was parts of it that were tough. You know, we're not using ice axes or needing to refine our arrest techniques or anything, but there was times where it was like we were off path no maintained trail on the side of a mountain where if we take the wrong step, we fall to our death. And that's exciting. A little bit. Yeah.
Andrew It makes you feel alive.
Everett Yeah. Yeah. So it was great, man. Three days. Like I said, about 25 miles. Beautiful campsites. Beautiful views. Day three in particular of this trip was just incredible. You know, you're in a crater glacier lake at one point. You're on an unmaintained trail on a ridge line at 7,500 feet at another point. Uh, just really fantastic. Beautiful. Gorgeous. Yeah. How are you?
Andrew I'm good. I've had a, I've had a nice long relaxing weekend.
Everett You're right at the end of your weekend.
Andrew I'm closing up my weekend today. Um, but a nice, just a relaxing do as little as possible weekend. Just how I like it. Love that. Yeah. So yeah, I'm, I'm energized. I have a, Clementine? Clementine? Clemente? White Claw? Roberto? 3.7% alcohol. This is not even alcoholic. This is like the amount of alcohol that's in kombucha.
Everett Zero gram sugar, 70 calories. Give it to me. It's pretty tasty. Put it in me, Clemente.
Andrew But other than that, doing good. I was excited to hear about your trip. Very jealous of it.
Everett It's interesting the different recitations of the trip you get from Kim versus me.
Andrew Yeah, hers is much more horror-filled, a lot more drama, many more near-death experiences.
Everett Not that she's dramatic, I think she's just, she had a different level of preparation for the danger.
Andrew Yeah, and I think those are also unfamiliar experiences to Kim. Yeah. Like, Kim has never used a rope to traverse over a river, right? Yeah, that's right. Which seems pretty mundane to us. You see it on extreme shows where people are doing challenges and they're like, hey, traverse this rope or traverse this river on this rope. You don't even have to build the bitch. You just have to hook on and slide yourself across.
Everett There's not some kid that had to jump into the river with a rope tied on him to get to the other side.
Andrew That's the fun part. What are they doing? They're just moving over on a rope. Which is a little mundane. Do that in the gym somewhere, asshole. Like just a little mundane task. It's something we've done so many times. Yeah. So part of it's just desensitization.
Everett Yeah. No, I think that's right. I think that's right. Not to say, you know, I was a judge advocate, right? So it's not like my military experience is particularly, uh, what's the word? Outdoorsy, right?
Andrew I mean. Still getting there. There's that foundational experience that everyone goes through. I mean, not many people have done a hundred foot rappel over the side of a fire training building.
Everett And I was a Cav Scout for about four months at the very least. Yeah, geez. Scouts out. Woo. At least four months I was a Cav Scout, so. All right. We should get into it because we've got, look, we are talking about real watches today.
Andrew We are. We're going to dive into a heavy topic, sort of.
Everett It's not heavy. I think it's light as far as these things go, but.
Andrew Light, yeah. Strapping bitches. Because you weigh less at higher altitudes.
Everett That's science. Oh, that's good. That's good. I wasn't there yet, but you've done it. I don't think that's true either. No, I think almost certainly that's not true.
Andrew Yeah. You got to be at quite an elevation to weigh less.
Everett Like the fucking moon.
Andrew Yeah. Yeah. So we can scratch that part.
Everett Okay. Yeah. I'll edit that out. I promise. 100% I'll edit that out.
Andrew So today, this eve, we're talking Everest watches. Yeah. Specifically. the controversy and the non-controversy of the first watch to summit Everest.
Everett Let's take it back to 1953, Andrew.
Andrew So first, we need to go a little bit further than that.
Everett Oh, you always do this to me.
Andrew No, we're going to go to 1953. 1953 is like 70 years ago. There's an important part prior to 1953. You're right, and I accept it. You're right, and I accept it. And it's important because it's one of the first watches to ever attempt Everest.
Everett I think that's important.
Andrew I think you're right.
Everett I think it's important. So we're going to go back to... Are we going to talk about the G-Shock MR-G210T?
Andrew No.
Everett Okay.
Andrew It's pretty cool. We're going to talk about 1921, 22, and 24. Just real briefly. A fellow named George Mallory.
Everett I've heard of this guy. I've heard of him.
Andrew Wearing a Borg-gel to attempt Everest. And that's, so that's the first watch that we can point to. definitively and said, attempted Everest. Now he never, he never summited Everest. He got to, oh shoot, I don't recall the elevation he got to, but I just wanted to point it out that it's a surviving tool. It's a surviving watch that attempted Everest in 1923. Right. Or 1924 was his third attempt that his watch is surviving from. And the crystal was broken off during his attempt. So the dial is all oxidized and the hands have rusted away. The watch is, other than that, in generally good condition.
Everett You know, I think that it's easy to forget about Mallory, right? But it's important to the story that 30 years, I mean really, 30 years before people tried this again, Mallory was up there and he was getting super dang close. Yeah. I mean really close, like within 500 feet or so, right?
Andrew A few hundred feet, yeah. I think less than 500 feet from the summit. They were, he was there. He was right there. 30 years ahead of them. And then it took 30 years to cover those couple of hundred feet.
Everett Yeah. Yeah. And I think some of it's funding and some of it's excitement and annual attempts mandated by the Nepalese government.
Andrew They were not allowing more than one attempt per year for a good chunk of time there. So one expedition, whoever could, could get readiest to the fastest or whatever politics went into you being the one to draw your attempt. That was a big factor.
Everett Yeah. Well, and then, you know, you start to get into the war. Uh, you know, geopolitics at the time are really crazy. Uh, you've just got a lot going on really through the forties. Uh, certainly the twenties, uh, you're in the, the middle of the depression, right? You get into the thirties, you start to have real sort of scary stuff going on late thirties. into the 40s, nothing's happening, right?
Andrew Well, something's happening. It's just not recreationally. Right.
Everett Nothing is happening in terms of let's go play. Let's go play this game and get as high as we can and as far as we can. Recreation. We got other shit to conquer. We've got some shit to do.
Andrew Yeah. Yeah. So an important preface. Somebody got very close wearing a largely unknown watch brand. So now we can fast forward into the 50s.
Everett I think I think the 50s In terms of watches are really important, right? You've got a little bit earlier than that Rolex really up in the game in terms of marketing.
Andrew Yep.
Everett The Oyster Perpetual, the OP case is a hit, right? Certainly not the first waterproof watch.
Andrew But they can tell you that it was. Hans Willdorf. And people will believe it.
Everett is a revolutionary, right? And he sees what needs to happen in terms of how do I get my watch in front of the right cameras, in front of the right writers, in front of the right publications to solidify this story. And he does a phenomenal job. I say he, Rolex, they, it. does a fantastic job in this front, right? They're certainly the world leaders in terms of right place, right time, you know, at least back then, right? They're about to take a hit to the company across the river. I don't know if Omega's across the river or not. Yeah. You know, but right, they're there. They're in the right place, right time. And he's done a very good job with that.
Andrew And then come the 50s, and they're focusing on tool watches because in the 30s, they had the first watch fly over Everest. And that was, that was sort of their, their mantra was equipping expeditions and pioneers because that was how they were getting their watches in the right places at the right times. They were attaching them to these celebrities. I mean, these are the first brand ambassadors that we see, right? Are people repping Rolex on these death defying revolutionary tricks and adventures. and they've got a Rolex on their wrist, so that, you know what? Damn, I need one too.
Everett And you know, it's interesting because they're not doing it in the way that other companies were. You know, really, they're just giving people watches. They're not.
Andrew They're loaning them the watches and then taking them back.
Everett That's right. Yeah. They're not providing infrastructure support. No. Or logistics support. They're just like, hey, Here's this cool watch. Why don't you carry it with you? Yeah.
Andrew And then give it back when you're done. Don't think this is yours. You can't have it.
Everett This is not a gift. You know, which in some ways seems a little, I mean, to me, I feel like, gosh, wouldn't it be better if they were really sort of tucked into the expedition or the dive or whatever it is? Wouldn't it be better if they were tucked into that in this supportive logistical way?
Andrew That's more expansive.
Everett But that's more expensive.
Andrew It's more expensive. And it's not it's not adding anything to their goal, which is to have a great marketing campaign to sell more watches.
Everett They were already in the 40s and then into the 50s, confident enough in their brand that they would just say, hey, here's the watches. Take them with you. Good luck.
Andrew Yeah, that's crazy, right? That's some balls. And it's in a well-established brand at this point. But I don't know if it's so well established to say, hey, all your responsibility when you're summoning Everest is just to wear this watch, bring it back down, and then we're gonna take it back and we're gonna do whatever we want with it. Like that shit makes sense for Omega on the moon missions, but less so for Everest. Like when they could provide infrastructure support.
Everett You know, and I think that that is a good segue into the other company that's really important in this story, which is Smiths.
Andrew Yeah, so Smiths. importantly was providing additional infrastructure and provided instruments and tools for this expedition.
Everett Yeah, that's right. And you know, Smith's, I think Smith's is sort of a funny brand, right? Because Smith's watches exist today, but Smith's watches are divorced from the Smith's group, which is today, still today, an extremely important engineering firm. that's making gauges and all sorts of other crazy shit that I don't even know about. Smith's Group is actually an incredibly powerful British company still today, but the Smith's watches that are made by Time Factors are not the same. No. Right? Smith's is a company that had incredible power in, I mean, really internationally, but certainly in European operations. And their watch group, really, in the late 70s, with the advent of the quartz watch, sort of fizzles out. Sort of fizzles out. But in the 50s, Smith's group and Smith watches were very much one in the same. They were the, I think, Smith's Engineering is what it was called, or Smith's of Europe, perhaps. These are the same company, right? It's a, like, Seiko, perhaps, or even, dare I say, Casio, right? This is a company that's very much married to the pursuit of all sorts of technologically important things.
Andrew So we've now introduced the players, right? We talked about the expedition.
Everett Let's do it, man. Let's do it.
Andrew The expedition itself was it has is fascinating to me because it's like so many other expeditions where the guys who were supposed to be first weren't first.
Everett Yeah, it feels like It feels like space, right? I mean, it feels super similar to the space race.
Andrew Because it's so unpredictable, so challenging and very little. I mean, so a large part of it is your ability, your courage, your inclination, but a far greater part is, yeah, no, we can't even see the top. So we're not going to go like here. Here we are 500 meters below the summit and we're turning around. Thanks for trying. So this first crew goes up. And they get turned around in 1953. And this was, this was their, ooh, which attempt was this for them?
Everett This is the second attempt, right?
Andrew Yeah, their second attempt, because they did one two years prior.
Everett So in 1953, I think the, there's a UK group put together by the Royal Geographic Society, largely by the Royal Geographic Society, 15 people from New Zealand, the UK, obviously, and Nepal. So 15 folks. get together. They've got some publicists as part of the group. They've got some Sherpas as part of the group. And then they've got some international climbers, right? Professional climbers, which at the time was sort of a really fancy occupation, right? It's not like today where you're an influencer or whatever, right? These are guys that are just dedicated to exploration. And at the time, exploration was a real thing.
Andrew Yeah.
Everett There are places we have not gotten to. And by God, we're going to get there. Let's do it. Yeah. And it was important, right? It was important in the same way the space race is important, right? This is a place that we haven't gotten to, and we should really try to get there for simply for the purpose of having gotten there, right? I think it feels sort of like Mars maybe feels like today. Like if we can get to Mars, maybe we should. If we can get to the summit of Everest, maybe we should.
Andrew To show man's conquering spirit?
Everett That's right. Manifest destiny.
Andrew So anyway, this huge team embarks on yet another attempt to summit Everest. And it's crazy that this is still a problem today. In the year 2020, this is still a problem where people have unsuccessful attempts to summit Everest. And they're up there for months, acclimating to the elevation, slowly working their way up, and they get there, Bad weather, turn around.
Everett And there's like an entire valley on Everest just full of dead people.
Andrew There's people up near the summit, the blue boots or green boots, whatever his name is. People just still just walk by this guy. There's no way to recover him. Nothing we can do about that one. Red boots. What's his name? Yeah, I don't know. It's related to the color of his boots. That's the only way they think they may have identified him, but they're not really sure.
Everett You know, John Krakauer's book on the Everest summit on that, that fateful sort of, uh, this has been a movie made. And that book is so good because he really talks about the, the desolation of the event. Uh, you know, here we are. Uh, I don't know how many people were on that expedition, 20 or so here we are 20 sort of well-to-do normal, well-adjusted people doing this thing. That's got this incredibly high risk of death. Uh, and you know, we're, we're going along the way and we're seeing people who haven't made it recently, you know, and they're dead. No, there's that guy, you know, or yeah. Uh, what's his face? I'm blanking on the guy's name, but, um, you know, yeah, well, he fell down and passed out and we left him. He was done. Guy's blinded and gets up and hikes down, you know, it's like this incredibly for ruthless, brutal event that people still do.
Andrew Recreationally, I think it's important to include in that statement that, oh yeah, no, he's just dead. In any other world, in any other circumstance, you see a person collapse and is probably dead, you seek help.
Everett Yeah, that's right. Not on Everest.
Andrew Yeah, not on Everest.
Everett That's right.
Andrew Because you got to get to the top. So we have the stage set. We have the 1953 expedition equipped with their dozen or so watches made by Smith's And Rolex.
Everett Two dozen. Two dozen Rolexes. Just Rolexes given to this team of 15 people. Unevenly, I should add.
Andrew Yeah.
Everett They give them to some people, not to others.
Andrew And I wonder how that went. Do you think they just gave them a bag and they're like, hey, here's your Rolexes? And it was just like, oh, I'll take two. I'll take three. I'll take two. And the last guy's like, I guess I don't get any.
Everett I bet that is what it is like.
Andrew So anyway, we've got this expedition. And they have their first unsuccessful summit attempt.
Everett Yeah, so two guys, Charles Evans and Tom Bourdillon. Bourdigine. Bourdigine? Yeah, something like that. Okay. Well, these two guys, they're gonna be the guys, right?
Andrew Mm-hmm.
Everett And they're just totally equipped with Rolex OPs. Oh, bling the fuck out. That's right. So caliber 7065, Rolex OP 6098s, big bubble back, dope, the coolest watch on earth, right? At the time, yeah. It's a prototype Rolex. Coolest watch on earth. And so they've got these things on for sure. They've got these things on. But Bourdagene, is that how we're going to pronounce it?
Andrew We can just say what we want.
Everett Bourdagene? Mortitella. Mortitella. He's an innovator, right? He's an engineer. So he's both a climber, an explorer, and an engineer. And he's designed a breathing apparatus. And it's an incredibly complex an extremely efficient breathing apparatus. At the time, it's the most technologically advanced breathing apparatus on Earth.
Andrew And now it would be akin to a snorkel.
Everett Perhaps. The problem with it is, is it's finicky, right? It's a little finicky because it's new technology, right?
Andrew And it's prototypical, right? It hasn't been tested at this elevation. It hasn't been tested in this demanding climate. You just don't know If your regulators are going to freeze. Yeah. If the air is going to freeze, like you just don't know.
Everett And so and ultimately, that's what does that man is boarded jeans. Oxygen system, incredibly, incredibly efficient, economical freezes and fails. Right. The weather is just not hospitable enough and it fails in 300 feet from summit. And that's 300 feet. vertically, right? It's not 300 feet.
Andrew Yeah, it's not like you can crawl the rest of the way.
Everett That's right. But 300 feet vertically, his air system fails, and Evans and Bourdigin have to go back down the mountain. I think it's Bourdillon.
Andrew I think so. Brisketta, man.
Everett Brisketta. Yeah, so they fail. They fail, certainly wearing Rolexes.
Andrew And we know this because there's great photographs of these guys on their retreat. in their defeat coming back down and sitting there and lamenting their defeat. There's great pictures of them wearing Rolex watches. Yeah. Indisputable photographic evidence of them wearing these watches in color.
Everett Yes, that's right. Yellow gold, wonderful, best watch on earth Rolexes.
Andrew But guess what? They didn't summon Everest.
Everett I have one of those.
Andrew We have one of them. Yeah.
Everett Yes. I think that's the first time we've successfully used one of those on the air.
Andrew Well, you already womp womped.
Everett I know.
Andrew It's not successful. So fast forward a day. Okay. Okay. Not yet, Sir Hillary.
Everett There. That's right. So Edmund Hillary not yet knighted. Yeah. He was knighted because of his.
Andrew That's right. summit. So just regular ol' Ed. Just, yeah, just Ed the asshole stumbling up from behind, hey guys it's the B-team! Stumbling up with their... And Tenzing Norgay, right?
Everett I think we were quick to say Edmund Hillary, right? And Tenzing Norgay. There's no reason not to include Tenzing Norgay except for xenophobia? Is that appropriate?
Andrew Okay, yeah, I accept. I think you're probably right, yeah.
Everett These guys, you know, I think I struggle with this part of the story, right? Because Sir Edmund Hillary summited Everest.
Andrew Fuck that. Totally unsupported. He just he walked to the bottom of that mountain. He's like, I'm gonna climb it. And he just strolled on up. No big deal. He was wearing an OP.
Everett And Sir Tenzing Norgay. Yeah. Also was there. Right. Probably he was probably just making tea or something.
Andrew Right. You know, what's interesting of this is of the two, Tenzing is more likely to have been wearing a Rolex. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Now, oh, we dropped a bomb.
Everett Yeah, yeah.
Andrew So there's a question here. There's a lot of questions and a lot of, dare I say, conspiracy theory associated with what Sir Edmund Hillary and Ted Signe Orgay wore on that fateful summit. Yeah. And this is important. And this is important because it is kind of a cornerstone of Rolex's heritage.
Everett Right. We've got some major assumptions.
Andrew Yeah. So they summit, they do, they make it to the summit.
Everett They make it. So on May 29th, 1953, at almost exactly 1130 AM local time, Everest time, Himalaya time, they reached the summit of Everest. Hooray! Does that count?
Andrew Yeah, that's a good one. But for some reason you had to preface it with your sound effect.
Everett I'll get better.
Andrew So they summit. And there's nobody there to celebrate with them. Yeah.
Everett So they have to climb back down the mountain. Seems like they could send like the celebration party up.
Andrew Five hour climb back down to base camp from like, hey, y'all, we made it. And then it's a series of, I mean, the original marathon, like man running message. Nike. To get this message back to the United Kingdom to say we've successfully summited Mount Everest.
Everett Yeah, you know, and this is where the conspiracy, I think, sort of starts to take off, right? There's a fellow that's been retained by the Royal Geographic Society. His name is, at the time, James Morris, now Jan Morris. James Morris, now Jan Morris, is waiting, in wait, retained by the Royal Geographic Society with code words. Yes. to get back to the London Times about the summit.
Andrew And who and what was worn. That's important that Rolex was so integral to this expedition that there were code words to indicate watches.
Everett And so that's right. Right. So who established the code words? Yeah. Who is controlling like this is real conspiracy shit. Yes. It's fun.
Andrew So so now now here's the next thing. There's some photographs of them post summit.
Everett There's no OP in sight. Well, you know, there's no gold watches in sight. There are only steel watches, which fit the description of a certain... Smith's watch. Smith's watch, and not of a dope 1698 bubble back gold Rolex.
Andrew Why is that? There's some questions. And so, so one, there's a bazillion theories, and we're only going to cover a couple of them. Now, Among the theories are that how on earth could you get a clear enough photograph in 1953 to indicate yes or no? Totally reasonable. The truth is controlled by the winners. Rolex was the winner. They get the truth. Another one is that Edmund Hillary didn't wear his. He just kept in his pocket to keep it safe so that he could look at it until the time.
Everett And I think that this one goes beyond theory. I think at least with regards to Edmund Hillary, I think it's safe to say And I'll back that up in a second, but I think it's safe to say that Edmund Hillary was not wearing a Rolex on his wrist when he summited Everest. I mean, he has all but said as much. Not only has he all but said as much, but Rolex has all but said as much. Yeah.
Andrew And this is where the plot has thickened. We're talking molasses, peanut butter, thick right now.
Everett We're talking about Kraft Mac and Cheese after two hours in the pan. Yeah.
Andrew It's thick. Don't eat that. Don't eat that.
Everett That's when it's best, man. Two hours? Yeah. Yeah. Congealed. That's my favorite, man. No. Yuck.
Andrew Okay. So after this message is passed back to the UK, the next day, both Smith and Rolex published their ads.
Everett Well, so wait, Smith's runs an advertisement on the first, or excuse me, Rolex runs an advertisement on the first, along with the press release.
Andrew Yeah.
Everett It's not for two days later that Smith's gets their word into the London Times. It's not until the third that Smith's gets their advertisement in. And this is, I think, the cornerstone of the conspiracy, right? Yeah. You've got James Morris, now Jan Morris, who gives the information to the Times with code words. Let's just go J. Morris.
Andrew So we don't have to... Both names.
Everett J. Jan Morris. I mean, I think AP rules say we call Morris, J. Morris, Jan Morris. Fair. Okay, I'll accept. Jan Morris, she gets her message to the Times with code words, Rolex publishes on the 1st. It's not till two days later that Smiths catches up, right? Because of course, now we've got the ability, we know what happens. Rolex knew.
Andrew Right away.
Everett Rolex knew right away.
Andrew Yeah.
Everett Did they intercept the communique? Yeah, it seems like maybe the communique was intercepted for them. Yeah.
Andrew Yeah. So, we have these ads published. Both companies claiming to have just conquered Everest, but Rolex was first. And who's right?
Everett The first one. And interestingly, Rolex suggests but does not state. Yeah, some ambiguity there. Suggests but does not state. that their watches were on the summit. And I think that this is kind of the thing that rubs people wrong about the story, right? Because you think if you're Rolex, and you've provided all these watches, and all this support, and you're so heavily involved in this process, that if you could state, maybe you would just state. Yeah. But they don't. Or maybe you'd have a picture. Wouldn't that be great? Yeah. Right? So they've got pictures, they've got copy.
Andrew Yeah.
Everett There's a Colonel Hunt who's heavily involved in this process, and there are statements from Colonel Hunt that are almost certainly statements that he made about prior missions.
Andrew Yeah. Or made prior to the expedition.
Everett Yeah, that's right. That's right. So you've got all these sort of vague, ambiguous suggestions by Rolex that they were there, but nowhere do they ever say that they were on the summit. for that 1953 Hillary and Norgay summit. And you just, the assumption is if they were there, they would just say, we were there. Look, we're the first ones.
Andrew Why? Why wouldn't you?
Everett Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess the obvious takeaway is because they didn't, they didn't. Yeah.
Andrew Which is not to say they weren't for sure there. Cause there's some questions about whether or not Hillary just had the Rolex on him, but wasn't wearing it.
Everett Well, and we know that certainly they were involved, right? If there was a watch company involved, Rolex was as involved as anybody.
Andrew Yeah.
Everett Well, no, they were not as involved as Smiths. Yeah, perhaps in terms of logistical support. But in terms of like the watches of Everest, they were there. They were the biggest watch component of that group.
Andrew And at the very worst, they were at the highest base camp. Yeah. And 300 meters shy of the summit.
Everett And it's important to say at this point that the bubble back 6098 OP was a better watch. It was a better watch. It was an automatic watch, which a lot of the guys preferred. It was a better watch. Something about the Smith's Everest, the Smith's, uh, 4,009 or 4090. Yeah. I don't remember. It's a 4,000 series. So there's a Smith's 4,004, which was the off the shelf version. And there's an updated upgraded version with shadowed numerals. that were given to these explorers. Uh, it was a fantastic watch, but probably not as good a watch.
Andrew So, so Rolex. Not, not purpose built for this, which makes it objectively not as good for this purpose. That's right.
Everett Rolex was there. Certainly they were there with a better watch, but it seems highly likely that they weren't actually on that summit.
Andrew It begs the question, why weren't they wearing them? They were available to be worn. Why were these guys choosing? I'm gonna, I, Andrew, am accepting that they didn't wear the Rolex to the summit. Why were they choosing that Smith's watch over the Rolex?
Everett And it's, I think it's this time where it's appropriate for us to say we don't know a fucking thing about this trip. I wasn't there. I wasn't there either. We've read numerous articles in preparation in this episode and we are just giving you a very brief summary of our findings. There's Hodinke has written about this thing like eight gazillion times.
Andrew You know, the best article we found, though?
Everett Yeah.
Andrew It's from the Outdoor Journal.
Everett It's a fellow named Matthew Knight that writes for Outdoor Journal, and he's got, I think, the best article on this. And you found that article, Andrew.
Andrew And it's perhaps the most well-researched. I think that's right. Because this guy, this was a conspiracy theorist obsession just from reading the article, the news clippings. the statements he's pulling out, the research that went into it, this man was obsessed.
Everett He cared. And he comes to a slightly different conclusion than I think that the most popular lore is. I think if you read about this, you're going to come to the conclusion that Hillary was wearing a Smith's watch and carrying a Rolex watch. Probably. But that Norgay had declined the loaner watch and instead was wearing a gold Datejust that he had received for an earlier mission.
Andrew Yeah.
Everett And that he was wearing that gold Datejust as he summited. I think that most people who know this topic conclude that Norgay was wearing a gold Datejust that he owned, his own gold Datejust when he summited Everest. Matthew Knight disagrees. Yeah. And I'm compelled.
Andrew And there's a photograph that he references that from looking at the photograph, it looks an awful lot like he's wearing a steel, not gold watch.
Everett And Knight's biggest, I mean, I think he makes that point, but his biggest takeaway is, the takeaway that I made, that I completely stole from Knight, which is that if Rolex could say that Tenzing Norgay was wearing a Rolex on the summit, why didn't they do so?
Andrew And in fact, he goes on to say, not only did they not do so, they so deliberately skirted around the topic and dismissed the importance of it. So there is a statement. I'm going to read two statements. Please do. I'm going to read one from Smith's and I'm going to read one from Rolex. DW Barrett, the managing director of Smith's Clocks and Watches. in the September letters page wrote, and I have to read the whole thing, it's important. With reference to Mr. C.E. Fowler's letter, which appeared in the August issue of the Orological Journal, in which our name was mentioned, I would say that advertising is one thing, in fact, another. The facts are, as we know them, that the committee of the British Mount Everest Expedition indicated that in many ways the expedition was to be a national enterprise and the aim would be to equip it entirely with British goods. Our watches and certain other smiths' equipment, including oxygen gauges, were supplied, and we received a written assurance that the watches would be worn to the ultimate point reached on the mountain. Sir Edmund Hillary has stated in writing that he took a smith's watch to the summit and no other, and he has offered the actual watch which he wore to the worshipful company of clockmakers for permanent exhibition in their museum at Guildhall. Based upon the evidence which we are prepared to put before the editor and or any authority, we claim that a smith's watch was the first to reach the summit of Everest. It was not an automatic type and was wound by Sir Edmund at the time he, with tensing on May 29th, went over his equipment at camp number 9 at 27,900 feet prior to setting it off at 6.30 AM on the final assault of the summit. It was, of course, at his Smith's watch that he looked at the dramatic moment that he reached the top and noted it was exactly 11.30 AM. And he goes on to say a couple other things. Now that's Smith's official statement, basically saying Prove me wrong, bro. Right?
Everett That is the ultimate prove me wrong.
Andrew And now a letter from the director of Rolex. There have been a few comments in the recent issue of the journal concerning the question of the supply of wristwatches to the successful 1953 British Mount Everest exhibition. It is a fact that Smith's watches formed a part of the equipment of the expedition, as has been officially recognized by the Royal Geographical Society, but it is But it is also a fact recognized by the Royal Geographical Society that the team was equipped with Rolex watches, in fact Rolex Oyster Perpetual. It is also a good thing that the British watches have been associated in such a fine way with the British and successful ascent of Mount Everest, but we are also very proud to have been officially associated with that expedition and of course many other expeditions to Everest and the Himalayas in the past. In our view, it is quite unimportant as to which person was wearing which watch at the top because As has been said by Colonel Sir John Hunt, the whole job was a team effort. And there's more to go on. There was good people on both sides. But that's ultimately the gist of this letter. It's ambiguous. It's never refuting the claim that Smith's was the watch on the summit. It's saying we was there. That's what matters. We were in the vicinity. That's what matters. And this is fascinating. It's such weird And this is a question that we started at the beginning, but ultimately, why?
Everett Why? If you were there, fucking say you were there.
Andrew Or don't. Say, hey, you know what? Somebody else's watch made it to the top. That's what they happen to be wearing. But we were just as prepared to be at the top, too. Yeah. Yeah. What a strange... Why? And so that article, and we're obviously going to link to it because this is a terrific article and for sure the best researched article I've read or could find
Everett on this meaningless topic. Meaningless, meaningless, but also sort of incredibly meaningful.
Andrew Yeah.
Everett Right? In terms of the assumptions that we make with watches, right? I think that, like, the first assumption you make with watches is that Rolex was the first on Everest.
Andrew There's, I'm sure, people out there who believe Rolex to be the first watch on the moon, too. Right?
Everett That's objectively true. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Uh, you know, I, I love this story and I think it's fantastic and I think it's fun. And I think ultimately we can't really know the answers because, uh, you know, the way. The, the marketing was such an integral part of this.
Andrew Uh, and then everyone who climbed, who everyone on that expedition was suddenly snatched up as brand ambassadors for Rolex.
Everett That's right. Yeah. I mean, that's the bigger picture, right? So, so, so in the years following the expedition, Norgay, Hillary, and Hunt, who we didn't really talk about because we don't have time, but you can read about this. All three of these guys who are really the ones who we want to hear talk about this are employed by Rolex.
Andrew And definitely signed NDAs. Right.
Everett That's right. I mean, these guys are on the payroll as it were. So it begs the question, certainly it begs the question, right? But but it also suggests this glossing of the details. And it's wonderful. It's enjoyable. The process is enjoyable. We're not trying to tell you what's what. I I probably personally believe, as we sit here today, that Rolex wasn't there.
Andrew I think Rolex was a base camp. And I think I think Rolex attempted. But Rolex came up short because that's what was being worn on the day. And the funny thing is, who gives a shit what watch they were wearing? The fact is, Rolex survived almost to the summit. So did Smith's. Rolex, a objectively superior watch for that purpose, survived. Smith's, not purpose-built for that, survived. They both survived. These are technological marvels. And we're worried about which one made it?
Everett You know, and maybe that's the touching off point, right? Does it matter? And probably it doesn't. In the grand scheme of things, it certainly doesn't, right?
Andrew Because humans made it and then came back down. That's way more impressive to me.
Everett Yeah, that's right. And we know that, you know, both these brands were in the game and ultimately it's a marketing game at the end of the day. But it's always fun to sort of question your assumptions or even more than assumptions, right? Columbus circumnavigated the globe and discovered America, right? You know, it's important to correct our assumptions about what happened in history. It's important to at least acknowledge that there was a machine creating a story and now we can, with thoughtful revisiting of these topics, sort of rethink these things.
Andrew I think we demand that Rolex right the wrong.
Everett Let's do it.
Andrew I demand, I hereby demand. I'm going to need you to draft a cease and desist that Rolex market as the first watch to summit Everest.
Everett You're calling in the lawyer privilege.
Andrew Yeah. Okay. Well, I'll work on it. We'll work on it.
Everett So that's it, right? I don't suspect that any of our listeners are going to be mad.
Andrew No. I think maybe some people... This is such a fun story. That's right. We're talking about the human condition here. The weird innate desire to go and conquer shit and the weird innate desire of other people to take credit or to coattail ride what other people have conquered.
Everett And the way that coattail riding shapes a brand, right?
Andrew Our decisions. Right. Rolex leans heavily on their Everest expedition. When they don't need to, there are so many expeditions that Rolex has been a part of that if they struck Everest from the list, they would not be any less for it. They didn't need Everest, but they claimed it.
Everett Well, and I think in some ways, I think in some ways, uh, the, the behemoth that is Rolex, uh, is, is magnificent and an interesting, you know, I think people oftentimes assume Rolex had the first waterproof watch case. We've talked about that on the show a number of times. Certainly they didn't, but they claim to, uh, you know, I, I think other people assume Rolex had the first dive watch. Certainly they didn't. I think people assume Rolex had the first watch on Everest.
Andrew Probably they didn't. But as it happens, they do tend to make the best watch in that category.
Everett Yeah. That's right.
Andrew Even if they're late to the game, they show up and they show up good.
Everett And they've had the ability to tailor, you know, a lot of credit to Hans Wildorf and Rolex for having that foresight. to be in the right place at the right time and to tell a story, to really craft a story that's wonderful and that I love, right?
Andrew Beyond that, their ability to engineer is so nimble. It hasn't been in the last couple decades, but they have been so nimble and so quick to react to what the market wants and needs. And now people just mostly want the logo. But they can do it. They can get away with not releasing new stuff.
Everett They don't need to. Well, on that end, on that note, I think we've probably reached the end of our useful ability to tell this story. Ian, or anything else you want to add about that Everest trip? No, just get on and read about it. It's fun. It's fun. We'll put some links. We'll drop some links to some random articles, but I think that you could really go down a rabbit hole on this. And if you do, do, and let us know your thoughts on it, and we'll revisit this subject A cursory way on the future. Do better than Mr. Knight. Go deeper. That would be incredible. I don't know if you could go deeper, but try. Andrew, other things, what do you got?
Andrew So I recently watched on Amazon the Eco Challenge show. The world's, oh shoot, what's it called? The world's most dangerous race or the world's Something like that. Something along those lines. It's got Bear Grylls on the cover of it. It's a tile on Amazon. It's the world's something race. Sure. But it it highlights. It's a reality show of a real race of the Eco Challenge, which is a rebooted adventure race from like the 90s and early 2000s where they choose a locale and teams pay to participate in this multi day adventure race. And not a small sum of money. No, it's actually a relatively small sum of money for the support that they offer. So to register for the 2019 Fiji, it was a $5,000 entry fee. For a team. Yeah, for a team of five people. That's not bad. Plus airfare to Fiji. So you're looking at $10,000-ish. They provide accommodations for three days prior, three days after the event. And you need your food. You need your normal shit for an expedition. but they provide you your rafts, your standup paddle boards, accommodations, three days, both ends. And it also pays for all the support staff that goes into making a race like that happen. And also a $100,000 prize for the winning team, a $50,000 prize for the second place team and a $25,000 prize for the third place team. So, you know, there's that purse that has to get paid for. Now, I was vaguely familiar with the Eco Challenge having been of consciousness right kind of towards the end of the eco challenge and what this is is a multi day hundreds of kilometers race that I think 66 teams were a part of this Fiji race and they highlighted about 20 or so maybe 30 of the teams and their struggle to get from start to finish and it was grueling. It was Well, like it looked like one of the most fun and challenging experiences you could ever go through. So they start on these little, uh, like kayaks, like outrigger kayaks, and they have to kayak across the fucking ocean from one Island of Fiji to the next. And then they got to trek through the mountains, whether it on foot or on mountain bikes. And then they got to stand up paddleboard up river, and then they got to trek some more and they got a mountain bike some more, and then they got to traverse through a eight kilometers of river, and it's cold, and they got to climb up a waterfall. They got to do all these crazy things. And it's unsupported while you're out there. You have your team, and you have a radio if you die. And it's what you carry on your back. And there's not people carrying these big backpacks, right? They're not going out for like multi-day expedition in their bag. They're all carrying like 35 liter bags with enough food and water to carry them to the next point. And it was so fun to watch that. It made me like, I, it was so fun watching it. I was like, I want to do an eco challenge. And I'm like, no, dude, you don't want to do an eco challenge, but maybe adventure racing. I could get down with, you know, a hundred mile races that are multidiscipline. Cause I can't ultra ultra marathons, ultra running, never going to be for me because I hate running a lot. Right. I love mountain climbing. I love mountaineering. I love kayaking, paddleboarding and rafting and all these other things. And I love trekking through the wilderness. So. You and I, our other thing is actually more of an invitation. You and I are going to start looking around for adventure races. I'm into it, dude. Build a little team and we're going to do adventure racing.
Everett I'm into it. Yeah. And you, if you want to be part of this team, submit your applications to us.
Andrew Just hit us up on the Instagram or let us know of any adventure races. And I'm not talking like Tough Mudders because those don't look fun or like that, whatever the other like the the what's the competitor to Tough Mudder?
Everett Oh, Spartan Ray.
Andrew Yeah, not that stuff. That's all bullshit. Bullshit. But I'm also not interested in in like just obstacle courses. Yeah. With running. It's got to be something more fun than that. Yeah. Like multi day. So there's one. There's a bunch in Oregon. Yeah. And they're going to start them back up in next year.
Everett What's the one they do in Bend? The pole pedal.
Andrew There's one of those. There's like the Bend Adventure Race. But there's a lot in the Pacific Northwest. And there's one that I read about Uh, it's through a company called like crank, uh, and they do a lot of adventure racing. And this year, because they had to cancel them all, they're selling maps, $10. They send, they, they, they're selling you the digital map and route for what these adventure races were going to be. And there's one that starts just South of Seattle to go do their adventure race. Just totally unsupported. And I'm thinking about buying the map. We'll have to look at like a timeline to be able to do it.
Everett And I mean, so I have certain skills and then other things I'm very bad at. So am I. So I'm good at overland. I'm not so good at going up. Like climbing? Like climbing, yeah, that's right. Or like just a... That's right. Lower body strength, I've got it for days. Upper body strength, I'm very limited.
Andrew I don't think that one is going to require like rock climbing.
Everett Okay, all right. Well, I'm into it either way. It sounds super fun.
Andrew Yeah, I think it'd be a blast. So if you know of any adventure races, hit us up. And definitely check out the Amazon show that highlights Eco Challenge 2019 in Fiji. It was really fun. I just, I powered through it. I love it. Yeah. I love it. It has Bear Grylls. He's a little bit of a douche, but.
Everett Bear Grylls is awesome. He's a little bit of a douche though. But he's like the most awesome douche ever. Yeah.
Andrew Okay. I'll accept that. But there's like these shots of him back flipping out of the helicopter to go do stuff. It's like, come on, dude. We know.
Everett Good on you, bro. We know. So I've got another thing.
Andrew Do it.
Everett This is a little different and I don't know how I want to approach it. I'm sort of, I'm still sort of navigating the approach mentally. Can we play it or do you think we'll get sued? I think we shouldn't play it. Okay. I think we shouldn't play it. However, however, uh, I like hip hop. Hip hop autonomous? I like the music formerly known as hip hop. Uh, formerly? Still? Perhaps. Uh, and I think that there's this thing, right? Whatever you're into, there's this idea that you've got to sort of locate the best of whatever, this or that. And I'm engaged in that sort of peripherally, right? In terms of hip hop, I think it's very fun to talk about the best verses of all time. I think it's fun. I think it's a fun conversation to engage in. And I think that there's a lot of really good contenders, and I'm not going to talk about any of those contenders except for one because I've decided in my own mind this is subjective and there's a number of arguments that you could make that this isn't true but it doesn't matter because I'm just going to tell you what my opinion is. Having been a student of hip hop for at least 30 years and having been very sort of deeply and heavily invested in the in the music and the culture I think I have decided for myself what the greatest verse of all time is. So Kanye West, a number of years ago, circa 2009 or 10, I can't remember which, released an album called My Dark Twisted Fantasy. It's wonderful. It's like the revolver of hip-hop albums. Say what you will about Kanye West, and I do not love Kanye West as a human being. He cray. He cray. With that said, I think he is one of the most talented hip-hop artists that's ever However, he is not the subject of this choice. Rather, it is one Nicki Minaj. He sort of is a subject. On My Dark Twisted Fantasy, there's a song called Monster. And this song features Kanye West, obviously. I mean, it's his song, right? So it doesn't feature him. It features Jay-Z, Rick Ross, Bon Iver, and Nicki Minaj. At the time, young Nicki Minaj. New to the game. She's still pretty young. Yeah, that's right. New to the game. So she had sort of showed up. And she had released some good shit at the time. And then she comes on Monster. And I will say, without any shadow of a doubt, it is one of the most incredible things ever recorded. But further, I'll posit that it's the greatest hip hop verse of all time. So, and she says in the verse, 50k for a verse. no album out, suggesting that I am the greatest, even though I'm brand new. And furthermore, Kanye West is on record having said, I almost took that out because I realized that people were going to say it was the greatest verse on the greatest hip hop album of all time. Now, I think whether or not my Dark Twisted Fantasy is the greatest hip hop album of all time, much more arguable than the fact that that is certainly the greatest verse on that song and probably the greatest verse of all time. So I'm coming at you, watch fam. If you're in, if you're not into hip hop, that's right over your head, then feel free to just skip this. However, if you're into it, I would love to hear your arguments, but what I want you to do is I want you to pull it up on Apple music or Spotify or whatever, pull it up and listen to it because I think it is just the greatest, just the greatest of all time. Fantastic and wonderful.
Andrew I think, I think Eminem is lying. Wrapping circles around square layers is one of the best lines of all time.
Everett All right, there's lots of good lines. There's lots of... But in terms of whole verses, holy shit, man. I'm not familiar enough with the whole verse. I'm gonna have to go back and listen. I'll play it for you after we're done. Okay. Andrew, my friend, do you have anything that you want to add before we move in the direction of shutting off?
Andrew I don't.
Everett I'm done. Totally done? You got it out of me. It was a fun episode. Thanks for doing this. I kind of brought this up on a whim. It was fun. I like it. Let us know your thoughts. I like adventure watches. Hey, thanks for joining us for this episode of 40 and 20, the WatchClicker podcast. Check us out on Instagram at 40 and 20 or on WatchClicker.com. Don't forget to check us out on Patreon.com. Patreon.com slash 40 and 20. That is where we get all the support for the show. We really need your help. And to the extent you're there to help us already, we love you for it. Don't forget to tune back in next Thursday for another hour of watches, food, drinks, life, and other things we like.
Andrew Bye bye.