Citizen Going Hard (282)

Published on Thu, 21 Mar 2024 08:01:03 -0700

Synopsis

The podcast hosts, Andrew and Everett, discuss various topics related to watches, including new releases from Baltic, Weiss, Christopher Ward, Citizen, and Gerard Perregaux. They also touch on legal battles involving watch brands like Rolex and the modding/customization of watches. Additionally, Everett shares his experience at the Alta ski resort in Utah and Andrew talks about the documentary "The Bloody Hundredth" related to the TV series "Masters of the Air". Towards the end, they discuss knives, with Everett describing his recent purchase of a Benchmade Bugout knife.

Transcript

Speaker
Andrew Hello, fellow watch lovers, nerds, enthusiasts, or however you identify. You're listening to 40 and 20, the Watch Clicker podcast with your hosts, Andrew and my good friend Everett. Here, we talk about watches, food, drinks, life, and other things we like.
Everett Everett, how are you? I'm doing well. I'm back in the state of Oregon, which is nice. I like home. It's pretty okay here. But I also really liked Utah. I was in Utah for Four days, which is kind of a short trip. Especially for a honeymoon.
Andrew I don't know how you got all that in.
Everett Yeah, I went to Utah for four days to ski, specifically went to the Alta ski resort, not Ulta, Alta.
Andrew Yeah, Ulta's a beauty salon.
Everett That's right. And it was really cool. If you've ever been there, you already know that place has a vibe. It's a vibe.
Andrew I've not been there, so please describe said vibe.
Everett It's ski only, which means a couple of things. One, it means the people there are kind of wealthy.
Andrew No young riffraff.
Everett And they're old. So I would say the average age there is maybe 15 or 20 years older than any other ski resort I've ever been to, which is interesting. It didn't bother me any. you'd expect there to be some snootiness, but I didn't pick any of that up.
Andrew You don't have to be snooty when you've already excluded all the people that you would snoot at.
Everett I think that's maybe exactly right, Andrew. The other really interesting, you know, and then it's just snowing. It's a beautiful mountain. It's kind of, it's smaller than I expected it to be, but it's really well laid out. And, It's just a good, it's a great skiing mountain. The other thing that I found really interesting, so they've got five lodges. I, of course, only stayed at one. And all of them are on the resort. None of them are owned by the resort. They're all sort of independently owned. And they have drastically different feelings, apparently. I stayed at one called the Peruvian, which I think is known for being rustic. to use a nice word. I wouldn't say it was shabby but maybe leaning towards that it just had this like old world naughty pine feeling like they're not dumping a bunch of money into finishes.
Andrew Like they're maybe two or three years away from closing down for two years for renovations.
Everett Well perhaps. Yeah actually I understand the owner is kind of old and when he dies his kids are probably going to sell it and who knows what happens then. it definitely had this rustic shabby feel to it, but also like everything's super expensive, right? So we were in a, there was three of us in a two bedroom suite, uh, with four single beds. Uh, and I think that it was like 1600 a night. for the three of us, which is a lot of money, but that includes food. So the other sort of piece of this is it's like, I guess, a European lodge experience where you're all eating together in a dining room for at least breakfast and dinner. We didn't really go back for lunch very often, but that was an option, but you have to take your ski boots off. So it's like, meh. But when you go to breakfast, you make reservations for dinner. So let's go. We want to eat tonight at six. We want to eat tonight at seven. And then when you get there, they sit you down at a big table, like a 10 person table. And you just talk with the people at the table, which was different than anything.
Andrew Are they paid companions or are they people who are also staying there?
Everett The latter. OK. Yeah. You may be a blue range of the former, though. I don't know. I didn't ask. And the dinner is like a two to a two and a half hour process. It's a four course meal. And the food was excellent. Excellent. The first night I was there, I was hungry and I took a flyer on a steak and it was a ribeye and it was phenomenal. Like a better steak than anything you could get at Outback. I should hope so. Wow. But you know, Outback has some decent meat. It's not good, but I expected something of that level. No, this thing was fucking clutch. I was like, holy shit. So I guess for, you know, $1,600 a night or whatever, they can throw a decent stake in there. You'd hope. Yeah. I mean, really the experience was despite being rustic and shabby, uh, was really pretty pumped. Posh. That's what, that's the word I was looking for. Pump and circumstance. Yeah. Posh, very posh, despite being this rustic shabby sort of like anti posh thing. It was actually really like upscale, weird, cool. I loved it. We've actually already made reservations to go back next year. Um, but I think we're going to go to a different lodge just for variety. But yeah, I loved it. I was like, fuck, this is cool, man.
Andrew No communal dining.
Everett Uh, still communal dining. Yeah. Different place. Interesting. We actually have, so we couldn't get the same exact space at the one we stayed at. So we, we made reservations in another one, but we were kind of on a waiting list for the, yeah. Anyway, we'll see what happens. It all books out like a year ahead. Crazy. So if you want to go there in March, you've got to make your reservations in March.
Andrew And winter's going later. So.
Everett It is. Well, it's, it's salt Lake. So March is sort of their big month anyway. Yeah. And the snow was great, dude. It looked great. It snowed on us pretty much the whole time. It was fantastic. Nice. Our very first time off the lift, we're sitting on a quad. It's the three of us who are traveling together. And this probably 65 year old woman who was solo skiing on a Monday morning, fucking egg, you go girl. And she was like, oh, you guys from here? We're like, oh no, we're from Oregon. She was like, oh, okay, well, sorry to say the snow's not very good today. And we were looking around and it's like, well, it looks pretty okay. And she's like, yeah, kind of icy out there. And I remember she said that and I'm looking, I see this guy ski by underneath us and it's just whisper quiet. And I'm like, there's no ice out here. What is she talking about? And it's just because the snow there is so good in March that this was a bad day.
Andrew Which meanwhile, it's like among the best days of snow you've ever experienced.
Everett No, I mean, I wouldn't say that, but it was definitely like totally acceptable conditions anywhere else you are in the world. Maybe besides there, the Wasatch Mountains. So, uh, yeah, pretty terrific. You know, and they have like a 400 inch or a 500 inch base at any given time in March. And it's like, whatever, not much. Yeah, that's right. It was, it was great. Really good time. Andrew, how are you?
Andrew I am good. I'm in a, I just finished day one of a class today that it's, it's hard to tell who the demographic audience is, which is really frustrating to me. Um, it's a really diverse group of people, uh, which is unlike, and I don't mean diverse, like in, I mean, in like profession diverse, which is a testament to how poorly targeted, uh, this course is for, uh, professional education, not diverse, like afterschool television. No. Uh, It, yeah, it's, it's trying. So I'm a little, I'm a little bit grumpy cause I have two more days of it. Uh, I have to drive an hour to get there and then an hour home. Where's it at? Salem. Yeah. Yeah. It's not great. So I'm a little grumpy from having that experience and looking down the barrel of two more days of it. Uh, Like it's, it's such a broad group that they're presenting such broad information to that there's no way anyone can glean anything from it. But at the end of the three days I will get a certificate from FEMA. So that's what matters is that I can put that on the wall. No, no, I'm not. I'm not, but it rounds out a big, a big basic course list that I need to finish out. So, Yeah, it's just irritating.
Everett It's just irritating. That stuff's always irritating. Like, what am I doing here?
Andrew Yeah, but if you imagine if you're in like a what's pitched as a CLE, a continuing legal education course, and you're also in it with like foresters from BLM. I mean, I've done that.
Everett I mean, not literally foresters from BLM, but a similar circumstance.
Andrew But that's the diversity of population. I know the frustration. Which means that the information is valuable to nobody. Sure.
Everett We'll make, we'll make up a way you can.
Andrew Well, I'm just heckling. I'm just like sitting, I'm, I'm using my like very insidious voice. So only the three people around me can hear as I'm like heckling under my breath.
Everett Yeah. Fair enough. You know what also is not afterschool television diverse Alta also. Yeah. In any event, we're not here to talk about skiing in Utah or about emergency management education. We're here to talk about watches. And oh boy, we brought some watches to talk about. Well, we didn't physically bring watches.
Andrew Well, we're wearing watches. Yeah, we are. But not any of the watches that we're going to talk about. And I'm going to kick us off because this is a watch that I saw this article and I was like, what do you mean this doesn't already exist? And interestingly enough, that same thought was talked about in the article that I read. So Baltic Hermetique, two new colorways, the Glacier Limited Editions in black and white. And number one, I'm really shocked that these don't already exist in black and white, such that I went and looked and was like, Oh, they do not in fact exist in black and white.
Everett It was one of our complaints about the Hermetique is that it was, there was no black or white.
Andrew Yeah. And they've sort of, Lightly fix that in the way of these limited editions of a hundred each 200 in each color so 400 total in these black and white and these are being called the glacier limited editions because The dials are textured in a way that look like the face of a glacier. They're these really beautifully carved out and textured black and white dials, and they are gorgeous. They're the Hermetique, right? They're, what, 38-millimeter cases? 37-millimeter case, 46 lug-to-lug, 10-8 thick, Miura 9039 movements, 150 meters of water resistance. They do come in two shoe options. Number one being an FKM color matched to the dial or a beads of rice or flat link bracelet. Uh, 600 euros on the rubber, 665 on the bracelet. I think these look fire on both bracelet options. I'm partial to the beads of rice, I think, but I, that black on the flat link is also really good. So I don't know, I don't know which I prefer. I do prefer both of them on the bracelet to the color matched FKM. I don't particularly dig white rubber straps. They're fun, but I think they're pretty singularly functional, right? It's just to be a fun watch. Black FKM works on virtually everything, but color matched White. I see why people will do it. I can get with it. This this dial texture is just is phenomenal.
Everett It is. It's a really neat dial texture. I actually am not crazy about textured dials, but for whatever reason, this one feels better to me than a lot of these.
Andrew I think it's because it's even though it's not subtle, it's it's very much the dial texture in the way. And this is not Grand Seiko dial texture, but very much in the same way that Grand Seiko applies dial texture and that it's really deliberate. It's really visible, but it's not the focus of the watch. It just is also on the dial. And I think a lot of dial texture becomes the focal point of the dial. And that's that's not this.
Everett Yeah, no, I think that's right. What's the name of that company? Is it Stella? Stella that does really heavily textured. They do like linen dials.
Andrew There's tons of brands that do.
Everett I am not a huge fan of that level of texture. And when I first saw these, I saw these this week and then of course you sent this link and I was like, meh. And then the more I looked at it, I was like, you know what, actually this doesn't bother me. I do think, I think the Armitique is such a great watch for 600 bucks or 650 bucks or whatever these things wind up being. I mean, on paper, so it's 10.8, including a box crystal, 37 millimeters, 46 millimeter lug to lug, 150 meters of water resistance. I mean, this is a banger. This is an absolute banger of a watch at an incredible price. 9039 movement, which I'm a huge fan of.
Andrew It's the standard. Uh, you're going to pay about this price for anything rocking a 90 39. Like this is exactly the price point that this watch needs to be at. And I think you're getting more bang for your buck and finishing. You're getting more bang for your buck in the way of tons of great loom, by the way. Oh yeah. Tons of loom. I mean the loom shots make it look like a fully loomed dial.
Everett I think this thing, I mean, I think it's an absolute banger. I think it's a shame that they don't have a blue or excuse me, a black version. in their standard lineup. So I think I think it's a mistake to have a only a limited edition blacked out in the air.
Andrew This could be the precursor to releasing black and white catalog additions.
Everett I don't need white, but give me black. I need a black dial on this.
Andrew I, you know, I like white dials. I have a couple, but I want, I want that crisp Christopher Ward white. I don't, this is a little bit off white. This is like a Sarby.
Everett 150 meters of water resistance. Dude, this thing is so great.
Andrew 11 points. This is, this is a, this is a great, great everyday watch too. Great watch.
Everett Great watch. Uh, I'm going to talk about another great watch. The, uh, Baltic Hermetique. Uh, and this is a watch that surprised me. So this actually came out about, five or six weeks ago. So it's older than our new release. But this is a brand that doesn't oftentimes make like the circuit. And I think that that is because Cameron Weiss does not market his watches the same way a lot of folks do. He's making incredibly small scale watches, making them largely in-house, meticulously crafted watches. We've talked about Weiss before on this show.
Andrew It's been a while, because it's been a while since we've seen a release from him.
Everett Well, and I think he releases more watches than you know, but they're just small scale. He's not doing a lot of watches. He's making a small amount of watches. Anyway, Weiss is not my thing. It's not my thing. They're always a little bit awkward. They've got like, some of their vibe is a little bit stodgy, I would say. I think that's the word I would like to use.
Andrew Interesting. That's not the word I would choose, but I see why you use it.
Everett It's just, there's not been a lot of these watches that interested me. And this watch also does not fit into what I like. So what this is, is a limited edition, meaning I think there's only 20 of these. They're being handcrafted. A limited edition titanium black DLC 38 millimeters standard issue field watch. His standard issue field watch is a watch that's in his regular catalog. This is a Tennessee tangerine dial with a black titanium DLC case. And I saw this thing and I was like, wait, what? I don't know what it is about this. I think that the dial color is really captivating.
Andrew It's a really, really good orange. richer than Doxa Orange.
Everett It feels to me a little bit like Foster Orange. It's got that slightly sheeny. I mean, it is just a terrific orange. And this watch is in 38 millimeters. So they also make this in a 42, which is way too big.
Andrew Big difference between the 38 and the 42 is that the 38 has a six o'clock small seconds and the 42 has a nine o'clock small seconds. which is as offensive to me as a 42 millimeter watch. It's like, hey, you can have this weird thing, or you can have this pretty great thing. The small seconds are a bit of a miss for me.
Everett Yeah, that's right. It's got a 7001 base movement, which I think Cameron Weiss fully assembles and finishes by hand. And his case finishing is particularly good. It's a manually wound. 21,600 beat movement, 42 hour power reserve, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's got a grade five titanium, so they are actually six AI-4V grade five titanium, 38 millimeters of diameter, 46.2 lug to lug, 9.2 thick, including the crystal.
Andrew That's razor thin.
Everett Sapphire case back.
Andrew Because box crystal, right? Yeah, domed at 9.8?
Everett 100 meters of water resistance, black oxide steel with hand-painted LumiNova. I mean, this is a really, really elegant watch, and it's meticulously put together. You know, I've never handled a Weiss watch, but there's nobody saying, oh, these are overpriced or whatever, because the people that have them are like, Yeah, this watch is the shit.
Andrew The amount of hours of labor that go into this are why it's a $2,500 watch. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, did we say that? $2,500. $2,500 on the 38. I think it's the same on the 42. Yep. That's probably where he's making his money back because hand painting a 38 millimeter dial is tedious, I imagine.
Everett Hand painted dials.
Andrew Gorgeous. The orange is perfect contrasted against this black DLC. I really, we need to find a, um, a metallurgist and just do a anatomy of metal episode. Um, cause neither of us know shit about buck. Like we, I don't know, three, one, six L steel. That's what everyone uses or grades one through five titanium. So when I hear 681-4V grade 5 titanium, well, I have a response because I don't know what's happening. I don't know what that means. So if any of you are metallurgists or sorcerers of that ilk, we'd be super happy to have you on and talk about it. This is a baller watch. And I'm with you in the way of a lot of weiss don't scratch the itch for me. Uh, the 42 really doesn't scratch the itch. In fact, it's kind of like when you scratch a mosquito bite and it sort of makes it a little bit worse. This 38, even with the small seconds, I'm like, Ooh, I could see that.
Everett Yeah, I'm with it.
Andrew I could, I could do with a titanium bracelet instead of this kind of cross hatched.
Everett Yeah, I think it's an FKM.
Andrew FKM. That's good. But, uh, yeah, this is, this is hot. Andrew, what's next? Next up for me. I have another textured dial today. This is weird for me, because you also know that this is not my my flavor. The Christopher Ward Oracle Time C65 Dune Shoreline. And, you know, for a long time, the C65 to me was kind of like Eh, watch. And in the last like year, the C65 from Christopher Ward has been like, like siren calling me from the depths. And it's not, it's not an, I mean, it's, it's a great watch, right? It's well-sized. They, these come in at 38, 43.7 lug to lug, 11.9 thick. It's, you know, it's, it's just an appropriately sized watch, but they're, you know, kind of against the rest of the Christopher Ward lineup, just not really my jam. But as of late, these have been scratching the edge. So this Oracle time is the, uh, aptly released collaboration with Christopher Ward. Uh, kind of in conjunction with the British watchmaker, uh, event that happened yesterday.
Everett Yeah.
Andrew Recently, recently in the last couple of days. And it is gorgeous. This is a, I have to find the material. It's a matte gray brass ripple dial with applied indices, super Luminova, SW 200, COSC certified, 28.8. Elaborate grade. All of it, right? This is a spec'd out watch that it's called the Dune Shoreline because it looks just like the ripples that you find in the sand on a receding tide, and it is gorgeous. This is what the Seamaster waves should look like, as opposed to just cuts in the dial, just these really gentle waves across the dial. This is gorgeous.
Everett Yeah, no, I agree with you. I really like this. Another heavily textured dial that I am not at all opposed to. I guess they're making these this texture with a hydraulic press actually pushing the brass.
Andrew Yeah.
Everett Which is interesting.
Andrew So they're doing it. These are real ripples. It's beautiful. Yeah it's gorgeous. These are coming in at a little north of what you're what you're typically paying for it. These are 1260 on a bracelet. 1175 on the Oh, so 1260 bracelet strap combo, 1175 with just the bracelet and 1020 with just the leather strap. Get this new iteration of the Christopher Ward bracelet is by all accounts fixing all of the misses with the previous iteration of bracelets.
Everett Uh, do it. It does have, it does have a mail in link, which I'm not a huge fan of, but um, Yeah. Beggars can't be choosers.
Andrew Yeah. I'm okay with it. It curves that watch better. It gives it just more reach around on that watch. And it just, it just sucks it into your wrist. And this is, this is gorgeous. The, the loom contrast against this gray dial, like this is the gray that I want. And that light catcher case, like you really think you're looking at sand. It's beautiful.
Everett Yeah, it's a great watch. I think that's fun. I'm going to talk about Citizen. Oh, interesting. Citizen has been doing things. So Citizen is a company that I think is increasingly vertically aligned, meaning, you know, with their acquisition of Bulova and their acquisition of Le Jouperet, Their capabilities in-house, their in-house capability, I mean, they can do everything, right? Citizen can do everything. They can grow crystals, you know, they can grow their own sapphire. They can do all of it. Probably, probably most of it. I'm not sure they can actually do all of it yet.
Andrew I wonder what they're not doing though, because of the financial ass they have working.
Everett You know, maybe hairsprings. I'm not sure. And maybe they're doing hairsprings. Shit, I don't know. If you know, let us know. But Citizen is an increasingly vertically aligned company. And I think but for maybe one or two other companies I can think of, maybe Rolex being one, Citizen's got just a ton of ass right now. And they're doing good stuff with it, right? Between their really sort of like tech forward JDM stuff and You know, the Suyosa, they came out this year. They're just doing a lot. So they've released a new Series 8. So Series 8 is their kind of like luxury models in between their like approaching Haute stuff and their like lower end Suyosa or whatever. They released this week the Citizen 8 890 mechanical models. Um, I believe this is a, um, so it's, it's not the caliber 210 rather. I believe these come with a, um, 90 15, but it's a full on integrated sports watch. that's I think competing with things that are significantly higher. Now this is got a very, very definite Royal Oak vibe to it. You know, you've got the big, uh, octagonal bezel that sort of sits high. You've got the case that the mid case that if you didn't know better, you might, is that multiple parts? Um,
Andrew They do like they cut out underneath that bezel separation to create a shadow.
Everett Yeah, that's right. And so it looks like it could be a multi-part mid case. I don't believe it is. I think it's just one part with, with, you know, cuts and, and shaping, uh, 90 51 movement, which is again, a great movement. They've got this thing, um, spec'd at like 10 to 20 per day, which is fine. Um, I think these things are just, they're just like sort of building out their like cool watch catalog. And, and I'm having a hard time being upset about anything with this watch. Um, the, the only thing I'm maybe not crazy about with these watches. So, so they're, they're coming in at like, uh, $1,600 depending on what you get. which is a lot of money. It's 40.5 millimeters, which is fine. 11.7 thick, which for this watch, I'd really like them to get that down, but we've got 200 meters of water resistance on this, so I'm sure that that creates some thickness.
Andrew They're also trading some of that thickness for depth in the dial because they have this huge, like really gradually sloped chapter ring to create some depth into that dial and almost achieve the light catcher thing. Uh, and I, I think they could, they could stand to lose some of that, but you'd also lose some of the legibility that is kind of achieved by that reflection off of that chapter ring.
Everett And I think, I think that that gets me to the one part of this that I'm not actually pumped about, which is the dials on these. They're doing a lot with these dials. So they've got this sort of like grid pattern and they've also got like a limited edition copper dialed version which has like this geometric mosaic thing. I think they're doing too much with the dials here.
Andrew But that's Citizen. Yeah.
Everett They're doing the Citizen thing. It maybe is par for the course with Citizen. I would like these a lot better if they had a more simple dial. The handset, I'm not wild about.
Andrew Again, the citizen things. Those are citizen hands.
Everett The markers are fine. I don't mind the markers. The chapter rings or the re-outs, not crazy about. So I don't know. I'm torn on this. I want to say that this is a really, really neat entry into the citizen lineup. But this is iterative growth.
Andrew That's what we're seeing right now. We're seeing iterative growth. toward this really cool shit, and they're seeing who they can drag with them.
Everett Yeah, maybe. Or bring along. I'm not exactly sure I know what you mean with that, but I do see this as a positive step, but there's enough here that I'm like, did you ask anybody what they thought about this? Because it seems like you created this for someone who doesn't exist.
Andrew They're grabbing people who are going to the Macy's counter who want a Royal Oak.
Everett Nobody's going to the Macy's counter to buy a $1,600 automatic.
Andrew I don't know. They're grabbing that demographic of people who don't know any better, have some money to spend and see that and recognize the Royal Oak cues. They recognize the fashion brand cues. They're kind of, They're trying to capture a market. And when you say that person doesn't exist, that person does exist. I don't know that I agree with you on this. Just not yet in the watch world. That's who they're trying to grab. Somebody who doesn't know what they don't know and recognizes some really familiar cues and their friends and them have been wearing fashion brands, but they're like, oh, I'm a citizen. I'm going to get a, I'm going to get a, you know,
Everett something a little different. You might be right. I think the person that you're describing isn't buying a Citizen watch because they consider Citizen to be a $250 eco drive.
Andrew Maybe, yeah.
Everett But I could be wrong. I mean obviously, I don't know, somebody's buying this.
Andrew It's not me. They're not marketing this to us.
Everett Yeah, it feels really close to me and ultimately with the chapter, that like really sort of big clunky chapter ring and the dial textures, it's a miss for me.
Andrew They're trying to grab people who can't buy Panerai yet. Maybe.
Everett Yeah, maybe. I mean, it's a cool watch.
Andrew It's a sign of really good things to come. Perhaps. Which is what we're seeing from Citizen, right? We're seeing this incremental growth and development and improvement and far less, like, weird misses like we see with Boulevard. It's like, why would you do 98% of the things right and then leave the dick on the dial.
Everett Yeah. So some major problem. Yeah. I don't think this is a major problem. I think it there's subjective decisions that I don't, I don't like, but, um, yeah, it's interesting. It's interesting.
Andrew What's next? Ooh, next up. I'll talk about our homies from intersect of intersect hosting intersect presenting intersect. I'm not sure. A new watch show hits Atlanta for the first time. Intersect Atlanta is going to bring 15 independent brands together for a one-day show. If you're not in Atlanta, it's going to be a little late for you because it happens this Saturday. Yeah.
Everett You're going to have to rush over there.
Andrew So if you're near-ish to Atlanta, Intersect as presented by our friends from Notice and their partners in this endeavor are going to be coalescing in Atlanta this Saturday. And that's exciting. Intersect is a show that you went to in LA, right? Yep. As a presenter. This last year in the fall. 2022. Yep. So it was a year and a half ago, huh?
Everett Yeah, I can't remember. I thought you went last year. It may have been early 2023 that I went.
Andrew Yeah, I think so. So this is it. It's happening. Intersect is a watch show and it's designed like very much kind of the way that wind up began in hosting and lifting up emerging brands, new brands, young brands who can't afford to get into big watch shows but are doing really cool, meaningful, awesome watch shit is where Intersect is, as I see it. And that might be a little bit reductive of what's happening there, but I really see and think of Intersect as filling the vacuum that was left by Windup when Windup got big enough that brands couldn't afford to be there anymore. And it's it's an industry collection of brands who are just love and want to share watches.
Everett Yeah. I really love the idea of Intersect. I'm not convinced totally that it's doing what you're describing. I mean, the presenters at Intersect, as far as I know, we got Notice, Formex, Jack Mason, Anardane, Christopher Ward, Fears, It's Laurier, Raven, a few other brands. So we know these guys really well. I know Wes and Colin really well. I know Steve Laughlin from Raven really well. Well, I know him relatively well. I know these people, I think maybe a little bit different than what you're saying. I think these people are people that really like each other. and have a shared vision on what the community should be. I'm not totally convinced that they're doing the Yeoman's work on propping up the smaller brands of society. I don't think the show's really got the legs for that yet, although I do see a future in which that could exist pretty easily. And if anybody's going to do it, I think it's these guys that are going to do it.
Andrew If we're being fair, Foster was there.
Everett Yeah, at a very early, at a much different iteration of this event.
Andrew I think it's true. So we're, yeah, so we're seeing some growth and some change and some evolution, but I think the vision is very much, uh, industry prop up.
Everett I think support, I think that that is the, that is the platonic ideal for, for what these guys want to do. And I'd love to see that happen. I'm not sure it's, I'm not sure that's actually what's happening, but
Andrew You know, and everyone just wants to get together in Atlanta.
Everett These people want to hang out. They're like, I love these people and we want to do something that's different than the other options, which is not to disparage anybody, but the other options have gotten weird. And so let's do this the way we want to do it. District time.
Andrew Come on. Well, I actually, I really want to go to a district time. I think maybe next year is a year.
Everett I think district time is the closest thing. to what you're actually talking about. And for whatever... Oh, I know.
Andrew I just like to take jabs at Mike every episode. I usually have one planned out.
Everett For whatever reason, district time doesn't have the same level of sexiness. And it could be because of Mike. It could be because of Mike. It could be because of marketing. I'm not exactly certain.
Andrew It's because it's a grassroots... It's totally comfortable with where it's at. And I think that's great. There's no aspiration of making district time a national representation. They're not going to take that show on the road.
Everett And I think that's great. Yeah. If you are in Atlanta, Saturday, the 23rd, go to intersect.
Andrew Yeah. Of 2024. So if you're listening to this years from now. Yes. Saturday, March 23rd, 2024. Um,
Everett You'll be able to see, for instance, the pen addict collaboration that we talked about on the show last week and leaked a little bit, uh, which will, which we also published an article on the, the website this week written by who are they going to have the, uh, the, what should be the next watch we talk about? They will. So they are going to also have a copy or at least, at least a copy, of the Notice Raven Trail Trekker. So this is a watch that if you've been paying any attention to the Notice Design Lab webpage over the course of the last nine months, you've seen a grayed out entry, Notice x Raven. I think they've even had the name up there for a while. this watch was leaked to us a few weeks ago.
Andrew I'm always really careful about the watches we talk about. Like when we, in our internal chats, cause I'm never sure what's embargoed or not until I see an article that somebody else has published. I don't say a fucking word.
Everett Yeah, that that's right. I mean, so we've, we've known about this watch while I've known about this watch now for, for several months, I, I saw pictures of it, like early pictures of it a while back. and have finally now seen what you've seen because this watch has been fully announced. This is a full collaboration between two really, really cool brands in this space, Notice and Raven. The design language of both of these brands is super apparent.
Andrew Yes. If you were to see this watch without seeing any logos on it, you'd be like, that looks like a notice, but it also looks like a Raven. Who, who made this? And the answer is they made it.
Everett Yeah. Both. Um, you know, you've got a really Raven dial. You've got a case that's noticed, but not like anything you've ever seen. I think that this is the saying, I think, don't quote me on this. I think, I understand that this is the same mid case as the one that Notice is going to use for their upcoming Contrail 3. So I think that this is a sign of things to come. This thing has some stuff going on though. So one, you get this like super highly legible Raven dial and this handset that I would say is pretty distinctly Raven. You get a bezel that sort of feels to me like more Raven than Notice in these big sort of blocky, highly legible numerals on the 24-hour track. 9075 GMT, so a collar GMT. And then you've got a cerakoted, gray-green drab bezel on top of a gray DLC stainless steel case, which, which sort of trends, I think it looks like a titanium case, but it's not, it's a gray DLC steel case.
Andrew Um, which is like kind of the worst of both worlds, right? It looks better than titanium, but it doesn't have the advantages of titanium. Yeah, perhaps it's going to, age really beautifully in a way that titanium doesn't.
Everett It's going to age really cool. You know, I don't know exactly how I feel. This watch is tacticool, right?
Andrew It's as tacticool as it gets.
Everett And I think that's what you'd expect from this collaboration. In particular, that's what you'd expect with Raven. That's kind of Raven's jam.
Andrew But this is the most tacticool Raven has gone, right? With Cerakote. Cerakote exists in guns and knives. Yeah, that's right. And now watches.
Everett And now watches, yeah. I think it's terrific. I think it's terrific. I don't know who it's for.
Andrew That's not true. I do know who it's for. It's for me, man. This is fucking... This is for me.
Everett Nodex clasp on the bracelet. Nodex, in my experience, hit or miss. I love the idea of it. I also have personal experience that it can be a bit hit or miss with the opening, you know, unintended opening. It's hard for me to be mad at this watch, though. It's really just lovely. I don't like the font on the bezel. It seems a little bit blobby to me. $875. I wish it was sharper. But yeah, at the price for a collar GMT,
Andrew With Cerakote, that's, that's, I mean, I agree that the font is a little bit blobby and I think the font is a little bit blobby as a function of the Cerakoting because it's such a kind of new application. I don't know that Cerakote has ever been applied in this type of detail. in what certainly hasn't been applied in this type of detail in this application, right? You know, Cerakote gets put on on gun slides with super fine cuts and lines, not in the same way as on a watch bezel.
Everett It'll be interesting to see how these wear because Cerakote is beautiful and durable, but it's chippy, right? Yeah, it can get chippy. And so it'll be it'll be interesting to see how this wears. Um, this has got a really fun case back. So trail tracker is actually a reference to the Oregon trail. So Kansas really noted as being the gate to the Oregon trail with Oregon. St. Louis being the end point.
Andrew Yeah, that's right. St. Louis. That's in Missouri.
Everett Uh, yeah, I actually think, uh, I actually think Kansas city, but I could be wrong.
Andrew Wasn't the arch in St. Louis the gateway? Maybe.
Everett Maybe. I don't know. Shit. I only know that they finish in Oregon City. I've been to the place. Or is the gate in Kansas City? And so this has a Conestoga wagon on the back, which is a fun detail. Here's where things get interesting. Here's where things get interesting. This is a 200 meter. This is a 200 meter Collar GMT that is 11.8 thick from tip to tail with a terrific 46.6 with a terrific 46.6 lug to lug. This is I think the thinnest 200 meter collar GMT that you can buy and you can do it for under 200 bucks. Under 200, excuse me, under a thousand bucks.
Andrew Okay.
Everett Well, say a thousand bucks. Sorry.
Andrew If anybody's selling one for 200 bucks, uh, sold dibs.
Everett Um, so this is back on this, the spec on this alone makes it interesting. And, and then to the extent that the aesthetic and the style is what you want, geez Louise.
Andrew And so we'll, I'm, I'm going to credit this, uh, James Stacy article real briefly, and we'll link it to, um, he says also let's not forget that notice offers double the water resistance of the Rolex and matches that of the tutor while being nearly three millimeters thinner for $875. And, and I think that really captures what Raven and notice are doing in the way of pushing the edges of technological capabilities in their watches. And they're not being greedy about it. They know exactly what they're doing. And they're still giving the people what they want in a watch that we can all afford. And, you know, maybe that's a bit privileged of me to say that everyone can afford an $875 watch. And, you know, that is privileged of me. The fact is that for under $1,000, you can get into a professionally specced, better specced than a lot of these iconic watches that exist in the world, made by cooler people, people who we know. I think that's awesome. I love what they're doing. This Design Lab project arm, of Andrew, what's next? I forgot that we were talking about a watch that you picked. Um, sort of. Cause you picked it. Cause yeah, we picked it. Um, Ooh, I have an interesting, so I've been talking, I think, I don't know, over the last three months have talked about multiple legal battles in the watch world, um, or things that have been going on. So, A thing happened this last week that can kind of, it's on par with what we've seen of courts supporting modding and supporting, no, you can change things. So a Swiss high court ruled on a lawsuit between Rolex and the uh customizer artisan de geneve maybe artisan de geneve i don't know i'm not fancy uh so artisan de geneve is known for their modifications of rolex and other watches but rolex being kind of the primary market segment there. Um, a lawsuit began in 2020 when Rolex clandestinely purchased a Daytona from the website, uh, that had been customized. And they were like, Hey dudes, um, gotcha. Immediately Artisan de Genova stopped selling watches from their website that belonged to them and transitioned their business model to primarily modding, doing high level customizations, total reconstructions of these watches. There's a few really cool examples. There's a Spike Lee example of the cool hand Brooklyn Daytona, which is, uh, It's about the coolest Daytona I've ever seen up to and including the rainbow. Um, the lawsuit persisted because Rolex didn't want them altering their merchandise, right? You know, there's, there's some IP interaction there. There's some warranty interaction there. There's a lot of components of this, of, you send your personal watch to a company and then they do with it what you want. And we've seen this, oh, Vortex, Vertex, Vortec, Vortec. Yeah. We saw it with Vortec. Uh, we've seen this kind of before and the courts have supported the, the, um, alter Asian organization of saying, no, no, you can, you can do what you want with your property. And we see this in, this Swiss ruling that yes, Artisan de Genève can still alter your stuff. It's your stuff. They did push back down their ability to like reapply Rolex logo-ing and stuff to your stuff that you've altered because it's no longer exactly theirs. So there's like some kind of interesting IP. But what's interesting is we're seeing, we've kind of seen that over the last couple of years, the, um, monopoly power of these brands start to be degraded in a really meaningfully meaningful way. You know, we see the, uh, intervention of the French government saying, no online retailers, can sell your shit because you sold it to them and then they can sell it. That's sort of how markets work. And we've seen with Vortec, no, you can have something made for your shit. And now in Switzerland, no, you can do whatever you want to your stuff. Now they can't sell you, they can't buy it from a manufacturer. modify it and then sell it under that same name. And this is interesting. And I'm, I'm wondering with these rulings, like I'm, I'm just kind of seeing this monopoly of power of the big five kind of slowly like degraded. And I'm, I'm kind of excited for the, uh, reality that they're facing that they're that they're gonna have to make some changes. Rolex. These these brands who have kind of hung their hat and just keep doing what they're doing.
Everett You know so this is actually a pretty heavily nuanced. There's a lot to it. Yeah. Yeah. And so if you don't mind me being a lawyer for just a second.
Andrew Yeah. That's why I'm talking about it with a lawyer.
Everett The first issue, and you correctly identified it, is that ADG was at some point modifying watches on their own and then marketing those for sale. And when we talk about modifying, there's a specific type of modification that they were doing that tends to be problematic, which is that they were altering the dials and sometimes the cases, but they were altering the Rolex branding. And so when they were marketing those things, you know, maybe there's a modified Rolex crown at 12 o'clock or they've changed the text on the Daytona or the Rolex logo in a way that could potentially mislead a consumer that ADG is doing Rolex. They're being Rolex. They have agency perhaps from Rolex to do these things. That is a problematic behavior.
Andrew And based on those early cease and desists, ADG stopped that really quick too, because they knew, they knew they were pushing the envelope and they're like, yep, no, you're right.
Everett I'm sure they have very expensive lawyers who told them that almost immediately. The other piece of this, which is taking Adam Levine or Spike Lee's watch and doing whatever. So there's this idea of like, brand exhaustion. Like you can't maintain your brand forever. Once I sell you that brand, it's yours to do with what you like. And really that's what the courts said. These people can do this and they can even advertise these services. ADG still has to be careful about what they do with the brands as they advertise.
Andrew So they have like a wall to enter their website.
Everett That's right. So you can't. They can't take out an advertisement in a magazine where they have a picture of a watch and say, hey, this is for sale if you want to come to our website. But if you, Andrew, want to buy a Datejust and take it to ADG, Rolex cannot stop your ability from modifying that, nor can it stop ADG's ability for, on your behalf, modifying that. There's this really sort of nuanced, it's all about the use of the branding. And that's okay in the context of you doing what you want with your own property. The property you've purchased, Rolex has sold you their brand. They've sold you that logo, that crown, that writing, whatever it is. You have the right to do whatever the fuck you want.
Andrew To that one and that one only. That's right. That's right. What concerned me was the, uh, brand that I talked about two weeks ago in selling DLC explorers. Yeah, because it would bug me to buy a watch and then have to send it out to get a DLC. And I think that might be a little different, super different, but it's falls kind of in the same space of them selling Rolex that they've modified that isn't provided already by Rolex.
Everett And that's where the idea of modifying the actual logos comes into play. And so there's there's some there's some hair splitting there. But there's some differences as well. Right. Companies have been adding diamonds to Rolexes for ages and everybody kind of agrees that that's fair play. But there's you know oftentimes these companies are jewelers and they're doing these custom or to the extent they're doing them generally, they're not really advertising them. So there's some, there's some nuance here.
Andrew It's interesting. And we've seen a lot of really meaningful legal battles occurring in Europe about the Rolex supremacy. It's interesting to me.
Everett Yeah, we'll see. We'll see what happens. I don't I don't know that anything happens. I don't think this is a monumental change, but it does clarify that the rights of the parties, all of the parties.
Andrew And I think it was a blow to Rolex. Yeah. Maybe.
Everett Which we've been seeing. Maybe not. You know, I think this is one of those. We talked about this. We had Tony Trena on the show, what seems like 100 years ago. Now Tony obviously is a big shot. over at Houdinki. And we still suck. Is this a Tony article that you sent, actually? Seems like it may be.
Andrew Yeah, it sure is.
Everett So, you know, Tony's an educated attorney. I don't gather that he's practicing at this point, but, you know, so he's really familiar with these ideas and we had him on the show to talk about the Vordik case. And, you know, one of the things that frequently comes up in these types of disputes is on one hand, the company oftentimes looks like the big bad, you know, the big bad monolith pushing its weight around. But in some ways, a company like Rolex is obligated to protect their branding. And so sometimes you see these instances where And we talked about this where it felt like with the Vortec stuff, Hamilton was kind of pushing its weight. But oftentimes there's an impetus for a company to say, well, if we don't protect our brand in this way, if we don't fight with these guys, we could have, there could be unintended consequences about what our implicit or even explicit license in this case would mean for other people. So an implicit license is dangerous, right? Because it can lead to what we call waiver, legal waiver in the future. Well, you let Vortec do this forever and you knew they were doing this. And so you're going to now say that I can't do this similar thing. It's like, well, that's different, but it doesn't matter. You knew they were doing this and you didn't, that didn't bother you. Cause they weren't a threat. you've lost your right to complain about this. And so I think this is one of those types of cases where Rolex is like, gosh, we got to, we got to try to fight them here. And we've got to clarify what the rights of the parties are. And by way of objecting to this and getting a really sort of tailored decision from the Swiss court, we can in the future, use that decision for better or worse, to to fight off other people who might say there's a waiver. We clearly haven't waived. We've defended ourselves to the maximum ability. And we've got this really specific ruling that can be differentiated from other activities in the future. So to anybody who's at home is like, oh, Rolex is a bully. There's some really practical, sound business decision making that goes into these decisions a lot of time. And I remember Feeling like I can see why Hamilton is doing what they're doing here. Although I, in that case, I do remember feeling like, ah, they're kind of picking on Vordick, but there's good reasons for these a lot of times.
Andrew They wanted to prevent other people from doing it. I think they were probably okay with Vordick. 10 Vortecs, that could be problematic.
Everett Or companies that do what Vortec is doing, but maybe just a little differently, right? In a way that's more offensive.
Andrew They wanted it defined to Vortec.
Everett I think that's right.
Andrew And I think ADG is a good example of like, no, we're maybe not so okay with this. Like, don't sell us our watch that you've altered. Be a little bit more discreet here.
Everett And you know, there's a there's a really obvious workaround to this. And this is what often happens in these cases, these these sort of borderline cases where, you know, perhaps Hamilton in a different world, Hamilton comes to Vortec and says, hey, this thing you're doing violates these legal principles. And Vortec says, no, it doesn't. And they're like, well, we think it does. But We don't want to fight with you. So what we want to do is offer you this settlement agreement that will include a license to use our product. You'll pay us a de minimis or nominal fee for that privilege once, once, and we'll grant you this perpetual or this, you know, 99 year license to do the thing you're doing, given these parameters, you know, given these rules. And then when the next company comes and tries it and At that point, Hamilton could say, no, you can't do that and say, well, Vortec does it. And I was like, well, we have an agreement with Vortec.
Andrew They paid us. They're licensed.
Everett They're licensed. And so, you know, that's, that's the workaround. And a lot of times that happens. I think that was really what was notable about Hamilton Vortec is that as far as I know, and, and I, and we've talked to RT about this and, and, and he's never given me real specifics, but as far as I know, Hamilton never came to the table with that type of proposal.
Andrew So yeah, they were being bullies.
Everett It did. I think so. Andrew, I've got one more watch I want to talk about. Let's do it. Ridiculous. Okay. It's ridiculous. Gerard Perregaux Laureato is one of the earliest of the integrated steel sport watches. I think it came a little bit after the Royal Oak, but before the Nautilus, before the 222, um, it, This is, it is one of the players in this world, although maybe the least sort of highly regarded. Yeah. Anyway, Gerard Perregaux has introduced a Laureato chronograph, which is the same as the one that already exists, except that it's made from titanium. So grade five titanium Laureato chronograph. Which means something. It means it's light. So it's a big watch. So the L'Oreal chronograph is a 42 millimeter watch that's 12 millimeters thick made of steel. It weighs a ton, especially for a watch like this, which is sports supposed to be kind of a svelte sport chronograph heavy, heavy. So this is, they're calling this the L'Oreal chrono tie 49, um, which I think refers to, this is, the 40th anniversary of the Laureato. It's a $20,000 watch, you guys. Okay. I think the standard Laureato Chrono is $18,600. So just a small premium over... It's titanium. But it's titanium.
Andrew These pushers are just fucking phenomenal.
Everett You know, we've seen a number... Yeah, they're really good. It's actually a screw-down chronograph. great crown on this thing. I mean, this is a superb watch. There's, we just, there's no ifs, ands, or buts. It's got this, what do they call these? This dial texture, it's like, Clou de Paris, I think, which is like, I think Paris nails. Fancy. I mean, this is just a, the watch exudes fancy, right? Um, but it's obviously ridiculous. The trend I kind of wanted to call out here is that I think that this gray on gray monotone titanium thing is the thing right now. This is the thing.
Andrew This is my flavor.
Everett This is the thing. I've loved this watch. I'm never going to buy it. $19,000 and I'll never even touch Loriato. Um, But geez Louise, it's got a great movement. It's a module. It's a module on top of base chronograph, but it's beautiful. This caliber GP03300 whatever the fuck that means. It's a 28.8 chronograph movement.
Andrew I don't know anything about it, but only 46 hours of power reserve, which is just.
Everett It doesn't. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Gorgeous automatic chronograph. I will say the date window on this a little weird. I I don't love it It's it's almost an afterthought great snail sub dials Great handset great everything. I mean, we don't need to talk about everything's good. It's whatever. It's a drug paragraph. It's a fantastic everything's good, but Really really really lovely and terrific watch and I bet it wears a dream.
Andrew Yeah, that bracelet looks phenomenal And you know it's going to be. Only 100 meters of water resistance. They're giving up a point there.
Everett It's a BFW, a.k.a. big fucking watch, which this should be. If I buy this watch, I want it to be a BFW.
Andrew It needs to be. And the thickness on it is probably just right, even for only 100 meters of water resistance. It's got perfectly proportioned crown guards.
Everett Kind of a long lug to lug, I think. I think the lug-to-lug on this is like 52, but it curves down in a way that I think you won't even notice it. No.
Andrew And honestly, you want to notice this.
Everett This is another Tony Trena article. We're giving Tony some love today.
Andrew Yeah, Tony's hitting it. He could hit this.
Everett What, the watch or you?
Andrew I mean, take your pick. All right, fair enough. If he brings the watch, he can do whatever he wants. Yeah, it's lovely.
Everett All right, that's the last thing I wanted to talk about, Andrew. You got anything you're dying to get on the air?
Andrew Nah.
Everett Well, in that case, other things, what do you got?
Andrew We talked about Masters of the Air. Was it last week? We did. I think it was two weeks ago because we did a can episode for last week. So it's been two weeks since we talked. I think it was three weeks ago that we talked about it. Yeah. Oh, my. Yeah. We talked about it recently. Um, and I do believe I finished it now. I've been keeping up. I'm, I'm, uh, I think maybe two episodes behind, which for me keeping up, I have to watch most of my television independent of my wife because, um, I binge television on like weird days where it doesn't matter. Um, I have my shows that I watch and then, you know, we have, we shows, uh, but I'm keeping up with it and I might, kind of bitch about it is that it's, it's not in, it's in too high of definition.
Everett Yeah. That's what we were talking.
Andrew We talked with John, right? Like I watched saving private Ryan, uh, last week and that I think they shot it in all 35 millimeter. I could be wrong, but sounds right. In that like gritty pre digital, proliferation age where you get like dirty imagery where you can like actually see grit on the film that was being used to capture the imagery. There's something really compelling about that and really immersing in that when you're watching these historic war films, you know, and I think like the John Wayne spaghetti Westerns where they cut in actual footage of people landing on beaches in the Pacific and, and, and getting killed, which is horrifying. And that never should have been done, but that's what they did because that's what they had. And it was easier to just use war footage than it was to hire extras and do something shitty. Um, that's a whole other thing. but that gritty kind of dirty imagery is, it matters when you're, when you're trying to be immersed in, in film. So that's been my struggle with masters of the air. Um, but I got this tile on Apple TV that recommended to me a doc called the bloody hundredth, which is the documentary of the, people who would then subsequently inspired Masters of the Year. So if you were to imagine watching Band of Brothers and then its companion piece of all the interviews with some cut in imagery, as opposed to, you know, four minutes of interviews ahead of and following the episode, that's kind of what the documentary was. Uh, it was all of the source material that then led to the production of the show. And it was so good. You have Tom Hanks narrating, you have interviews like cuts in from Steven Spielberg, like the, the ass behind the show telling the story kind of in companionship with the, the product, you know, being the television show. It was, it was good. I like, I was second screening while I was watching it. And then I kept rewinding and ultimately put my phone down to watch the documentary. Fantastic. Yeah. It's, it's a good, it's an hour and two minutes. So it's relatively short. Um, but it's, it's really good. Uh, and, and they've got the source material interviews with these people who were the, you know, the people, who were then represented in the show. And it's, it, it tells a story in a really different way. It's like when you see the character like, Oh, I'm not going to go home. I'm going to stay here with my friends. And then when you see this old guy who was like, no, I, you know, it seemed weird to go home when all my friends were still there. And you know, I, yeah, sure. I flew 25 missions, but you know, whatever. I had more in me.
Everett No, I will say both. It's a little different. Both you and John Liley from Markwell said the same thing about the high definition cinematography. You had the opinion that it was off-putting. I didn't share that at the time, and having now finished the series, I don't share it now. It didn't bother me at all. In fact, I thought the cinematography was beautiful. It is beautiful.
Andrew It's too beautiful. It's not dirty enough. Yeah, that didn't bother me. When you see war, it's not clean. I will say,
Everett the story didn't suck me in as much as I would have hoped. And by the time I get to the end, I felt like I knew the characters a little bit better and I was like, okay. Um, but yeah, it was, it was band of brothers meets Pearl Harbor, which is, was kind of problematic with maybe, with maybe just a less compelling story arc.
Andrew Yeah. Cause it met Pearl Harbor, right? They were like, just, they, it was the cinematography. It was the, the big stuff. And when you watch things like Band of Brothers was real, and you have these story arcs, these characters who they really dive into. And Saving Private Ryan, not real, but they tell this really beautiful story with these characters who matter, and you're curious about them. And it just didn't feel that way with Masters of the Air.
Everett We did get one great escape. reference at the POW camp, which I was like, Oh man, which they, which they do talk about the three tunnels.
Andrew And I was like, they do talk about the dock, uh, which was really fascinating. Cause one of the guys there was like, yeah, these fucking Brits are like, they dug his tunnel and a bunch of them got out and then they killed a bunch and two got away and it ruined it for the rest of us. Like, Oh, you never really thought about that. And you watched the great escape with Steve McQueen. You're like, Oh, he's a fucking awesome man. Oh wait, that has consequences. Yeah. Yeah. That's right.
Everett Yeah, that's right. Oh, well, that's terrific. I'm going to check that out.
Andrew What is this called? Um, it was, it is called the bloody hundredth. The bloody hundredth. Okay. Cause that was the name of this, uh, this, uh, what do they call them? A group in, in the Army Air Corps, this, this bomber group who, um. Had to do all these missions. Not, but not more than necessarily other groups, but they just had really, uh, they just had bad luck. Yeah. There were, there was a couple of bomber groups who were doing comparable amounts of flying and losing less crews and aircraft and yeah, the bloody hundredth. Cause that's, you know, it is brutal.
Everett That's what I'll say about masters of the air. It is really, I mean, it's really the story of a group of folks that had a rough time and, and that's valuable in and of itself. So, well, Andrew, I've got another thing. Do me my other thing. I've got it in my hand. Don't shiv me. It's a knife. Oh, It's a knife. Why are you holding that? So in the true spirit of other things, I have acquired a piece of EDC gear. Is that fair to say? Yeah. I just decided recently that I wanted a knife and I wanted a fancy knife. I have been for the better part of five or six years at this point daily carrying a Case Sodbuster Jr. knife.
Andrew This is a great blade.
Everett We have matching knives. It's a yellow handled brass pin Case Sodbuster Jr. with a carbon steel blade. It's gorgeous at this point because that carbon steel just patinas really well.
Andrew It doesn't matter if you use it or not, it just patinas.
Everett I've sharpened it, you know, at this point 20 or 30 times. It is razor sharp. all the time. It does all the things I want. It is a slip joint knife, which means it doesn't lock open and that can present some problems depending on how you use it. By and large, if you know what you're doing, you're fine, right? Yeah, just be a grown up about it. If you use it like a locking blade knife or if you're prying or twisting, you will have some weird things. You might have some repercussions. That's right. But I love that knife and I think it's great. It is not, however, a fancy knife. And we're really at this point in knives where you can get the greatest knives ever made. I mean, that's probably always been true at any stage, but you just, I mean, there's just so many knives out there, right? Small brands, big brands, everybody's making terrific knives. Everybody. Yeah.
Andrew There's probably... Gerber is making phenomenal knives for 35 bucks. That's right. The fast assist is one of my favorite EDC knives I've ever carried.
Everett There's probably two dozen Asian companies right now making really, really, really good high end, as good as anything knives. Civivi is one that comes up a lot. There's a number of brands. Anyway, much like watches, we're in a total like heyday for good knives. If you want a knife, you can get one for well under a hundred bucks. That's going to be as good as anything that was made five or six years ago. Anyway, that's not my point because I bought a knife from the most boring knife company, which is Benchmade. You know, Benchmade.
Andrew Do you know why they're most boring? Because they do nothing fancy. You can make it fancy.
Everett They do nothing fancy, but they also are just like, and they're overpriced, right? I mean, everybody agrees that Benchmade knives are probably slightly overpriced. So I decided not only was I going to buy an overpriced Benchmade, but I was also going to buy like a heavily spec'd out like really overpriced Benchmade. Yeah, you went big on it. I bought a watch that cost roughly $300. This is not a watch for the faint of heart. It's a knife, not a watch. But I love it. Okay, so what this is, is a Bugout. A Bugout is probably Benchmade's most popular knife. It's the top three.
Andrew It's the Bugout, the Osborne, and the... There's a third. It's their three, like, these are customizable knives. And it's those three.
Everett And this one is a special bug-out. Bug-out's kind of controversial because a lot of enthusiasts don't like it. It's really a thin and a lightweight knife. It's not a knife. It's not like a bushcraft knife. Really, this is a knife that's meant to be heavily packable. They weigh like one point that the stock bug outs weigh like one point eight ounces. It feels like paper in your hand. Crooked River. Oh, the Crooked River.
Andrew Yeah. The bug out the Crooked River and the Osborne are probably their three most popular blades.
Everett I got one that comes OEM with carbon scales and it's a true carbon fiber scale. It's got an S90 V blade, which if you know anything about steels, this is a true super steel blade. Um, it's basically just trick as fuck. I immediately feel dressed it all the way down, sanded the phosphor brass watches with or washers with 1500 grit and then polished them with a Cape cloud cloth and then put it all back together, oiled up to make the action just absolutely hot.
Andrew It's a little too hot. I, uh, I have a, uh, laceration because I lost the thumb stud when I was opening the knife. Yeah, it's pretty hot. And found the found the heel of that blade. Who got me? And Benchmade comes so sharp. Yeah. Like it's a it's a laser blade. It doesn't matter how you treat your blade in the first year. You're never going to have to come near a stone.
Everett Yeah, well, and I don't know, you know, I've obviously only had this, I told you earlier, I haven't really actually even used it. It's effectively for me a- We've only cut flesh with it. That's right, that's right. It's effectively for me at this point, a fidget spinner with a really dangerous sharp edge on it.
Andrew Lessons gotta be learned, man. But I love it.
Everett It's- But I love it. I just holding it in my hand. I love it. I'm so happy with this purchase.
Andrew So, so I've been in the market for a, uh, downgraded tactical knife, right? You might carry a Presidious. Is that right? Yeah. The Presidio, the Mel Presidio, uh, knife with that like dual like beveled grip and it's heavy. It like that when I when I first put in my pocket, I had to tighten my belt loop or tighten my belt one notch to like keep my pants from falling down because it's heavy. It's thick. It's all steel. It's a great tactical knife. And that's not a world that I live in anymore. But I still really want to have a appropriately sized knife. So I've kind of been in this And I think this is the right size, because I do also keep a Case Sodbuster in my bag, but I want to have a knife a little bit more accessible than in my bag. And the Presidio is big. Just a little too big. It's too big. It's too thick. It's too heavy. This is the right size. And we were talking about it before the show. This is not big enough to be a big knife. Nor is it small enough to be a small knife, which maybe makes it perfect.
Everett Or, or as discussed off the air. Wrong. Completely. Yeah. It's, it's, it's not small, it's not big. And so it doesn't meet either thing, but it's, it's a compromise in terms of size and shape. However.
Andrew I really like the shape. It's a, it's a flat, spine grip. And that's kind of my concern with the Osborne is it's got a little bit more curve to it. And I am at, and the dimensions are virtually identical, but with that curved spine and that curved spine in that size kind of causes some, uh, second thoughts for me.
Everett Yeah. Our, uh, daddy watch clicker will is a nine 40 Osborne and a mini Osborne care carrier. So he's, he's a big fan of both of those watches, both of those knives naps. Yeah. Um, yeah, this, you know, I decided, yeah.
Andrew Cause he's all about that Osborne.
Everett I decided to take a flyer on this, you know, and I'm so happy I did. It's just a terrific knife. I'm sure there's going to be people at home that are going to write to us and tell us about how, why I'm wrong.
Andrew And, you know, we also recognize that there are a hundred other big brands and boutique brands out there. You know, this, we were talking about this knife and it led to us talking about, uh, I don't know, a dozen other knife makers out there in similar price range. And we talked about everything from Spyderco to Half Face. Uh, we're talking like $35 to a thousand dollar blades. And what it comes down to is what you like, just like with watches. And it's also okay if what you like sucks. Yeah. Because there's going to be some people out there who are like, no, you got to buy Gerber. And you know, Gerber makes some good blades. But you're not getting the same craftsmanship, the same quality of materials, and I've used a lot of Gerber blades.
Everett Or maybe you are, right? You know, I think the biggest competitor to the Bugout is a knife called the Hogue Deca. Hogue is also an American-made company. They make really high-end shit. You can get a Hogue Deca for like $100 to $150 less than this knife. And it is, by all accounts, every bit as good. Um, you know, maybe not the carbon scales. And I think a lot of people are upgrading the scales on their non-carbon bug out 180 bucks. Yeah, that's right. And I think a whole decade is like 150 or something like that. And so, you know, I spent, I think, two 75 with a, with my 80 discount on this. And, uh, that's a lot of money, right? It's not insignificant. But at the end of the day, I didn't have to think about it. I'm not upgrading anything. It's got a great titanium spacer. It's got a DLC type, you know, blue DLC titanium accents, which kind of gives it some pop. It's got scales that you'd never want to upgrade. And if you did want to upgrade them, you wouldn't buy this one. It's already pimped, which is what a lot of people are going to do. A lot of people are going to buy the regular Grivory bug out and then pimp it, right? And they're going to wind up spending more and doing all this work. Um, this is just out of the box, the, the knife that I was excited about. Um, so yeah, there's always trade offs I think is your point.
Andrew Our, our prime disagreement is that I want a combination blade and you want, I've had enough.
Everett Andrew, anything you want to add before we get going for the day?
Andrew No, we should probably call it.
Everett Well, can I just quickly thank the folks at home for tuning into this episode of 40 and 20, the WatchClicker podcast. Hey, do me a favor. Why don't you go to our website? You can find that at https://www.watchclicker.com. Look, that's where we post articles every week. You should check it out. There's some cool stuff that went up this week. It's also where we post every single episode of this podcast. You can check us out on social media, really at Instagram, at WatchClicker or at 40and20 underscore WatchClicker. And that's where we post updates about what we're doing on the website and here on the show. If you want to support us, and oh boy, we hope you do, you can do that at patreon.com slash 40and20. Look, everything we do costs money, hosting pictures and hosting audio and software and hardware necessary to make those pictures and audio costs money. The folks that are supporting us, make that happen thank you to everybody supporting us check us out patreon.com slash 40 and 20 and don't forget to tune back in next thursday for another hour of watches food drinks life and other things we like bye