Interview with John Liley of Markwell Watches (278)
Published on Wed, 21 Feb 2024 23:01:24 -0800
Synopsis
John Liley, co-founder of Markwell Watches and the Horological Society of Utah, joins the podcast to discuss the debut Markwell watch - the Memento Mori. He shares the inspiration behind the Masonic symbolism on the dial, the unique case design, and the overall philosophy behind creating this vintage-inspired timepiece. John also talks about his personal journey into watch collecting, the connections he's made through the watch community, and what's next for Markwell.
Links
Transcript
| Speaker | |
|---|---|
| Andrew | Hello, fellow watch lovers, nerds, enthusiasts, or however you identify. You're listening to 40 in 20 The Watch Clicker podcast with your host, Andrew and my good friend Everett. Here, we talk about watches, food, drinks, life, and other things we like. Everett, how are you? |
| Everett | I mean, what's not to like? I am going to drink this Ruby Grapefruit White Claw. I'm sitting in a oversized, comfortable chair. Oversized. I'm going to emphasize that. |
| Andrew | It's way oversized. It's also real tight and cozy. |
| Everett | No, I'm doing really well, man. How are you? |
| Andrew | I'm also really well. I like your pants. Thanks, they're khakis. I hate you. You're not my good friend. I'm also good. I'm right on the back end of like a weird cold. And further, I had one of the most tragic things ever happen to me this weekend. I bit my tongue. super hard on the side of my tongue, not like a middle of the tongue bite, like a side of the tongue bite, which then over the course of the day caused me to like kind of adjust my tongue deliberately to avoid biting that same place again. And do you know what the fuck happened? I bit the other side even harder. I had like visible bruising. So my tongue has now swollen on both sides. So I have a little bit of wet mouth sound. I'm fully aware of that. And my tongue is bitten on both sides. |
| Everett | That sounds rad. |
| Andrew | It was a, it, it, it was a hard weekend for me. |
| Everett | That's incredible. Well done. Yeah, it is. I was so mad. That's a quality move. Uh, I have, I, I, I've bitten my tongue of course, but the, the one that gets me worse than the tongue is this cheek where you bite the cheek and then it swells like it gets inflamed and like it pokes itself in between your teeth. It's like, Hey, remember me? Gotcha. Gotcha. |
| Andrew | Yeah. Yeah. You just keep biting it. So that's what I've been doing. I've now been biting both sides of my tongue for the last couple of days. |
| Everett | Good man. I'm glad to hear it. Honestly. Yeah. I've got no such, I've got no such excuse for my performance tonight. It's just going to be a bad night. I don't want to tell you guys. |
| Andrew | Well, you know, you don't always have to be okay. |
| Everett | Well, Andrew, here we are. We're sitting together in this room, but, but with us sort of electronically via I don't know, wires, satellites? Sorcery. Sorcery. With us, we have a man, a man who is not only a watch brand owner, like many of our guests, but also the founder of the Horological Society of Utah and board member. We've got John Liley, who is one of the owners of Markwell Watches. And he's here today to talk about his debut watch, the Memento Mori from Markwell. John Liley, welcome to 40 and 20, the Watch Clicker podcast. How are you? |
| John Liley | Hi guys. Thanks. I appreciate you having me on tonight. I've listened for years and it was always my dream to be this, the first podcast I've ever been on. So I'm so happy. This is it. You made it. |
| Andrew | We've popped a fair number of cherries and we're happy to pop yours. |
| John Liley | We're going to get along well. Thank you. |
| Everett | Well, John, we're so glad you could join us. You join us tonight from the Salt Lake area. I understand. |
| John Liley | That's correct. Salt Lake City. I'm in the county. |
| Everett | Yeah. You're in the county. That's what they call it. |
| John Liley | Well, it's Salt Lake City is downtown and Salt Lake County is surrounding it. I'm more closer to the mountains down by the ski resorts. Yeah. |
| Andrew | But there's still no break between you and the center of Salt Lake. |
| John Liley | Oh, no, it's all urban sprawl. Yeah, it just keeps going. Twenty five minutes on a good day, half an hour with traffic. |
| Andrew | It's one of the most beautiful places I've ever been. I only I drove through once and stopping there, just like sitting in the middle of Salt Lake City and being surrounded by the bowl of mountains. I was like this. I get it. A lot of places you go and you're like, why did you stay here? Like what? What? Like, did you break down and then Like you just stayed this Salt Lake was a place that I got it. |
| John Liley | Yeah, I was kind of the same way. I, uh, 30 years ago I was offered a job, but I, I flew out at Christmas time and there was a snowstorm the whole time. So I never saw any of the mountains and I really didn't know much about Salt Lake other than it was West of the Rockies. Not quite in California. There was a lake and a bunch of pioneers showed up in the 1840s. And I came and didn't see anything. And then about a month later, when I drove out and the sun came out the next morning, I was like, wow, where did I move to? |
| Andrew | That's brilliant. Like the same the same thing that happened to the people who settled it. |
| John Liley | Like, yeah, exactly. I found it. This is the place. There's actually a monument called This is the Place Monument. And that's where they popped out. And they're like, and Brigham Young said, this is the place. And that's exactly how they got here. |
| Everett | There you go. Yeah. You know, I'll be in Utah in just a few weeks. I'll be in Alta. I understand it's not Alta. It's Alta. |
| John Liley | Correct. That's how they say it. Alta. |
| Everett | Yeah. And it's not Zion. It's Zion. I learned both of those things today when I mispronounced Alta. |
| John Liley | Zion. Zion's. Yeah. The land of Zion. Yeah. |
| Everett | Well, uh, great. So here we are. We're here to talk about Markwell. We're here to talk about the Memento Mori. We're here to talk about kind of a lot of things. We oftentimes go long in this show. I don't think today is going to be any different, but we will try to keep this a little bit efficient. So I think we would be doing a disservice to the listeners of 40 and 20. Uh, if we didn't ask you, John, how did you get into watches? |
| John Liley | So the standard answer is my father had an old little Boliva about the size of a postage stamp that was in his top drawer. |
| Everett | I've seen a picture. I've seen a picture of this watch. |
| John Liley | Oh yeah. It was on the video. Uh, literally the size of a postage stamp. Um, that's after it was restored, but as a kid it was broken. It didn't have a crystal. It didn't have a crown and you, you know, you sneak into your dad's dresser and play with the things you're not supposed to. You find a lighter, you find some cufflinks, you probably find stuff you're not supposed to and don't want to talk about on a podcast live. But, um, I found this little watch and I would go in there and play with it. And for years, I put it on my wrist, had a stretchy bracelet. And that was the first exposure to a watch. And years later, about 2015, my dad passed away. And I told my sister, I said, I want the watch. And she's like, what watch? I said, trust me, it's in the top drawer of his dresser. And there it was. So I picked it up, brought it home, kicked it around for a while. Eventually I had it restored. That'll be the one that you've seen in the picture. And, um, that's the first time I think I was really into watches. And then like everybody else in high school, I'm the child of the seventies and eighties. And I had a swatch and I had a Casio, Annie Digi. My first cool big boy watch was the Tag Heuer, you know, things like that. And then I just kind of moved up, probably got really serious into it about 20 something years ago and spent more money than I needed to and continue to do so. Yeah. uh just kind of how it happened um organically it wasn't anything i read the james bond novel so i wanted a rolex and that's part of my collection is in that stand four digit five digit stuff and i laugh with the horological society when we have meetups we have these kids that'll come in and i call them kids they're in their 20s and they'll go wow look at that where'd you get that and like well i bought it Well, where'd you get it? And like, well, I bought it when it came out. I got it at the store. Yeah. |
| Andrew | I went to the store like back in the day when you could buy Rolex from a human person at a counter. Yeah. |
| John Liley | When you were two, I went into the store and bought this. I have a root beer, a five digit root beer. I literally bought that because when I was a kid, my soccer coach was this cool dude. He had a Porsche 928, like a gold one with brown leather. And I remember his son and I were in the backseat and he had a root beer. So I always remember that watch. So when I finally got to that point in my life where I could afford such a thing, that was the one. And I literally went into the mall and ordered it. And the guy called me two weeks later and I got it. So now when I go to the meetup, I'm the cool guy with the Rolex, with the root beer Rolex that I literally ordered. And they make fun of me, but that's OK. |
| Andrew | It's a jealousy making fun of you. They're like, wait, you you went in and you bought it on the spot. No, I don't accept that. |
| John Liley | A better story than that. I was in Vegas in 2006. I walked into Tornell and at the time there weren't really nicknames other than maybe root beer and Pepsi, and that was about it. Because we were just like on the Rolex forum and stuff. And I walked into the gal and I'm like, hey, do you have one of those anniversary bezel subs? Because that's what it was originally, and it wasn't a Kermit. And she's like, yeah, I got one. I said, sure, I'll take it. And she's like, OK, I'll be right back. to walk back, I dropped down my 4850 and walked out with it. And I think I used my Utah app address and didn't even pay sales tax. |
| Andrew | And nowadays, they don't even have a display model. |
| John Liley | No, well, I kept that thing for 10 years, and then sold it and made like two grand on it and thought I was really hot shit. And then I used it for the down payment on the motorcycle. And then two years later, I'm like, Oh, man, this thing's worth three times what I sold it for. |
| Andrew | but it's not a motorcycle. |
| John Liley | So, you know, there's no, I have a lot more dreams on that thing and fun with people, miles of smiles. So it was well worth it. |
| Everett | You know, about a year and a half ago, I played golf with a surgeon. He's sort of a well-known surgeon here in town. And we, we were in the same cart. So we were together for, you know, better part of four hours, uh, just chit chat. And he was wearing a black date sub and, uh, you know, not the kind of guy who cares about his watch. Right. Uh, he has a watch, he wears his watch. He, respects his watch, but also doesn't think about his watch. And I asked him, I said, Oh, you know, that's a pretty cool watch. And he's like, Oh yeah, you know, I got this at, uh, at topper, uh, or not topper. Uh, I got this at skis, our local, our local jeweler, uh, you know, a few years back. I'm thinking about get some new, but I just go in there and I don't know what to get. And I was like, well, if you put that thing on the market, you can afford a lot of watch, you know, relative to that thing. So you, you got options if you're going to get rid of it. He's like, no, I think this, you know, I only bought this for six. I'm not sure it's for three or four. And I was like, no, no. Try 15. No, no, no, no. We, we, we, we shall educate you, uh, here really quick. And his mind was blown. You know, I pulled up, I think I pulled up Chrono24 at the time and, you know, showed him similar examples and he, he, you could just see, he was like, I don't know what to do with this information. Uh, you know, if I had to guess, if I had to guess he did exactly nothing and he still wears it every day. Yep. Yeah. Uh, you know, that kind of guy, but yeah, it's one of those things, right. Where, you know, most of the people that bought those watches weren't thinking like, Oh, this watch is going to be worth three or four, 10 times as much as I'm buying it for a few years down the road. |
| John Liley | Yeah, the profane, not those the members of the club that we exist within. Right. I've had similar experiences with people, but I've also had interesting. I got a phone call from a friend of mine. He's a retired jeweler. And he goes, hey, you I want you to come up and see me on Thursday. I'm like, OK, why? The neighbor lady has something you probably want to see. And I'm like, what? Well, he said, bring some cash. And I asked him how much. And I was like, OK. So I come up there and we meet her and he's about 80. We walk down and she's got this great big condo on the golf course with a big giant furniture with the white rug. And she comes to the door and walks us in and greets us in her living room and sits down. And right there in the middle of the table is, you know, the typical old Rolex box, but it's leather with the gold buckle on it. And I go, I know what's in there. So popped it open and her husband was an extremely successful insurance agent. And her whole thing was she goes, it just sits in this box, but someone needs to have this. And Jim says, you won't sell it to anybody. And I says, no, ma'am, I won't. So we negotiated this price on this 1981 day date with original box papers, the back sticker, the tag and everything. And I walked out for five thousand bucks. Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. He was left handed. He wore it on his left hand and he wore the links through. And on the old models, the old 81s, they're hollow. You wouldn't know it. I had to find four different links. And then as I am advancing in age, I can't see the hands with the dial. So I swapped out the dial for a champagne dial and I put Gold Samariner hands on it because they fit. So it's mine. And that's the way it looks right now today. That's superb. Other than that, I wouldn't be buying a Day-Date. |
| Andrew | Rolex modding is a thing. |
| John Liley | I do that. Oh, that's kind of how I got into my creative streak. I put Submariner hands on everything. My Date, my Datejust, stuff like that. Yeah. My watchmaker hates me. He calls it sacrilege. I walk in with eBay parts and he goes, oh, seriously? I'm like, yep. |
| Andrew | Let's do it. It's the watch you like. We talk about it all the time. You make the value. So we've got the story of how you got there. There's a there's a bit of a delta between you getting there and being interested in watches and Markwell launching about a year ago. Yeah. So we have eight years ish. Right. You said 2015. Oh, no, that's long. |
| John Liley | Well, 2015, that was that was when my father passed away. But that watch I had played with since I was a kid. So that's my whole life, you know, basically. |
| Andrew | Well, so let's talk about the last like 15 years of watch, because there's a few bios of you that call you an amateur urologist and you've done, you've done some things and some interesting things. And I'm curious how, how those come about. |
| John Liley | Uh, are you talking about my bios or are you talking about the watch things? |
| Andrew | The watch things, the bios kind of makes sense. |
| John Liley | You know, we've all had to write those, but yeah. So, um, I had to write that epitaph myself. Um, So in that collecting journey, um, you know, what's really interesting. And a lot of people don't realize the, do you know where the Invictus service center is for the whole world? No, it's all like 20, 20 minutes that way. Yeah. So, yeah, there's a guy here that used to own these stores called precision time and all the malls all over the country. And he ended up being friends with a guy, converted and did that. And then the service centers here. So there were plenty of Invictas in the last 20 years as well too. I didn't just go from crummy old Bulova to, you know, nice five digit watch when I could afford it. But, um. |
| Andrew | No, there's a growth period as makes sense. |
| John Liley | Well, yeah. And then you try to rationalize, oh, I could spend that much. It's fine. I know I could do that. |
| Andrew | Well, Invicta gets you, because it's like, man, it's supposed to cost that much, but I can get it for this much. Okay. Duh. |
| John Liley | I still have a lupa in the other room. I've got, uh, I have one of their divers. My kids gave it to me, um, for my birthday, you know, 20 something years ago. So yeah, absolutely. Um, we did work with that and then just, it's interesting somewhere around 2008 when the market kind of crashed. And again, I'm in the mortgage world. So when the market crashed and money wasn't there, I had sold off a lot of my collection. A lot of people did a lot of stuff like that back then when things got hard with that financial crisis. So when that happened, I kind of went away. I had some stuff left, stuff I wasn't going to sell like that root beer and things like that. But I had to get unload stuff because you got to make your mortgage payments. You got to do what you got to do. And so I kind of walked away from the hobby for a while. It was kind of like I couldn't log in and look in the forums, but I always kind of looked at stuff. So I kind of. Yeah, it was probably good five, six, seven years in 2015 is actually a good spot because getting that watch back. that was in my dad's drawer that I had restored. It kind of got me back into the bit. I started discovering YouTube and seeing channels where I could see watch collecting. And that's what made me reach out to our aforementioned friend Bruce, who has a YouTube channel, and said, hey, do you know any groups here locally? And I'm involved with the Horological Society. I'm not the founder. I'm one of the founders. And we originally started as Chrono Group. You know Mike out in California? I think it's OC Crono and those groups. Yeah. Yes. I know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We were an affiliate group, SLC Crono, and we started that way. We still have a slight affiliation with them. And then we went one step further because the fellow that's the president of our group was the president of AWCI back in Ohio. And funny enough, we have like three or four different watchmakers on our group here locally in town. And, uh, we started it as a charitable organization, 501C3. And we started meetup groups and meeting brands and bringing people in and hosting them. We've had Catlin from Norcane, the guys from Grand Seiko. Everybody, I mean, Formex was here. All the little groups that you would think of and big groups that you would think of, all from a bunch of silly guys out here in the middle of the mountains. So, yeah. |
| Everett | You know, I think that it is, uh, I think that this world of watches is really more than anything kind of dependent on the people you meet. Uh, and, and certainly that's true for Andrew and I, uh, you know, we, by way of this show have met, you know, dozens of brand owners at this point. Uh, we, we met Will after having invited him on the show to just talk about like, how do you do a watch review? That was, I think, I think it was called the life of a watch review or something like that. And you know, as the legend goes, we were just kind of enamored by each other. And we're like, we're doing different things. We're doing different components of a, of a media group. So why don't we join up? But all along our experience has been, our experience has been sort of, uh, uh, fomented by the people we met. Uh, and it sounds, your story doesn't sound any different unsurprisingly. Is there, are there people or groups of people that you met along the way that you can, you know, point to and say, you know, meeting this person or having this experience with these people, you know, sort of set the trajectory or, or, or change the trajectory, uh, that, that landed you here. We still haven't talked about the watch. We're going to get there. But, you know, I think we're doing some foundation building here with you, and I appreciate your patience with us. |
| John Liley | Well, so within the context of the watch group that we have here, the Horological Society, and we started hosting people. We hosted a company called Swiss Watch Company. The Realmers own that. I think they've been on your show before. Yeah, that's right. And Steve has a long history with the Swatch Group. So it wasn't just, oh, hi, I'm a fellow selling watches. We got to hear his history and talk to him. uh... then that led to the next person that they knew through the next phone call which was the next step like if you sit down and talk to the romers like you talk to their sons their cousins are like friends with people that are related to who work for rafael at formax because you know switzerland's like this big and you know they're all one step away from being related from everybody pretty incestuous yeah they're like dukes i didn't want to use that word but yeah well coming from coming from utah you gotta be careful well having not Well, I'm not from here, so it's okay that I live there. Well, you are coming from there, though. I am now, you know, it's okay. But, um, yeah, so I have been married three times, not at the same time, though. Uh, it's just part of the way it is here. But, um, yeah, so you meet those connections. I mean, right down to Will with you guys in the Watch Clicker podcast, he knew the fellas through SWC. So I talked to him and I'd have pictures taken for my, for my brand. And then he and I were talking. And he and I grew up 25 minutes from each other. Now he's like 17 years younger than me, but I mean, I think we talked before we probably took our driving test on the same streets way back when, and I haven't lived in New Jersey since 1994. When Will was born. Yeah. So it's, it's the little parts and pieces of the people that you meet and then listening to podcasts such as you folks and listening to what you did with your, your brand, Foster and And then listening to the guys like on whiskey and watches, but then meeting someone like Nicholas, we, uh, from fears, we had him out to last month and to sit and listen to the detail and the things that he does with watches. And he never wanted to call himself a micro brand. So I don't want to call myself a micro brand either. I want to call myself a brand. And although this is the first watch I have, uh, there are certain details in the way we build things and do things. much like what he's done. So am I going to fanboy on fears for a minute? Yeah, I like that. But I would also take that. Yeah, I could take that from different people that we met in different places and it is right. It's all about people and connections. And had we not got into this, let's use the word fraternity of the watch, um, uh, groups. And had I not met this person that knew that person, they wouldn't get me to that point. Um, For instance, in the Horological Society, I was able to get press credentials. And from the press credentials, we were able to go to the Couture and Antique Watch and Clock Show in Vegas. And this will be our third year that we're going. So we'd get to meet with Mike from Zodiac, the guys from G-Shock. We go to the Oris party. I'm just some silly guy that used to listen to podcasts during the pandemic. |
| Everett | Mike from Christopher Ward. |
| John Liley | Yeah, Mike from Christopher Ward. Yeah, exactly. It was Zodiac, right? So, I mean, all of those folks, and I'm just some silly guy, right? That's, that's, you know, that was listening to stuff. And now all of a sudden I've got my own brand and I'm hanging out with people and they're all normal, just like the rest of us, but they're doing something that we love. Right. And, uh, the connections are what makes all this work. I think that's why we're here tonight. I would guess. So. |
| Andrew | Let's talk a little bit more about the Horological Society and, and, and what it is. So it, I mean, you, you are, uh, uh, a founding father, if you will, of, of the Horological Society of Utah. You've already said that it's a 501C3. You bring people in to both honor and further honor the history and further the, the story of watches, but let's what's going on there. What is it? |
| John Liley | Well, much like a, you know, any kind of watch group, like a red bar or a chrono group, we do have monthly meetups. uh so folks get together with their boxes of vendettas and you know their hundred thousand dollar laga that they've got on their wrist and nobody gets to wear that but you you can look uh funny enough the first thing i went to the guy took it off his wrist and handed it around the table and he says hey i'm not trying to be a poser or anything but you guys can look at this i just got it that's the best way to not be a poser i'm like oh okay so we we went around never seen that guy since but um did the watch go home with him or |
| Andrew | I should hope so. |
| John Liley | Okay. I do know as the secretary of the society, we have, you know, insurance, so we're good there. Um, that being said, it moved further because we have an educational slant because the founding president was the president of AWCI. So we brought in the build a watch program. Have you seen that RV that's been on Instagram and places like that? AWCI brings it in and you can do build a watch. So they have 10 watchmakers tables on the inside. You pay your fee. You take an eight-hour class in this RV that's a school that's sponsored by AWCI. You sit down and build your own wristwatch. It's a Unitas movement and 17 jewels. And at the end of the day, it's your watch and you pick the straps and everything else. And you're out there taking a wrist shot at the end of the day of something that you built, taking a class with a trained watchmaker. So we've brought that to Utah three times. We've had when longer came out, we had a huge event with longer over 200 people, they brought their watchmaker out with like a microscope. And so it's not just the guys they had there, you know, watching the $100,000 watches on the table that they actually let people handle under the watchful eye of the security guard. But on top of that, you could go over and see how the watch was made and sit down with the the Dutch guy that would sit there and talk with his accent and show people little wheels and parts and pieces under the microscope and put it up on a big screen. So there's an educational factor. There's a meetup factor. And then everyone can have their, uh, their moment of, uh, stardom when they, somebody like when Catlin came in with Norkane, everybody's like, Ooh, 10 and two Catlin. It was all exciting. And we did the Norkane deal up at the ski resort. So when the glass was open and the sun was out, there's the ski slope and there's the Norkane watches. You know, and they're all we try to make it a big dramatic event. It's not just something. And we routinely sell out. We'll have 100 to 150 people. The long event had over 200 that just show up. It's more than a meetup. It's it's it's an event. You know, I don't know how else to put it. |
| Andrew | Pretty picturesque place to be hosting events. |
| John Liley | Yeah, we've one of the coolest one. So everybody gets jealous of the one up at up at Snowbird, where they held the ski resort with Nord Cain, you know, and Oris showed up and they had the RV and we were at a pretty cool place where they have like all the food trucks. And that was kind of neat. But one of the neatest things we did, because Cole Pennington used to live here. It was Hodinke's now with Tudor. He and his wife are in Switzerland now. And it happened to be Cole's birthday. But randomly, he's a Toyota Land Cruiser guy, right? So the largest Land Cruiser museum in the United States is in Salt Lake City, Utah. The fellow that used to have the first dealership here, his son was nuts about him. So he started collecting them and they have so many of them. So we started a foundation. So they have like number two or number three that was ever made in the United States. So they have all of them. So what we did is we hosted an event with Seiko. So Seiko came in, we had sushi chef, we had, you know, Japanese whiskey, the whole thing. And you can walk the whole event. We had the whole museum opened with all the vehicles and Seiko watches. So we try to theme everything. And that event got around and it got a lot of traction. So people heard about it. So for, so people like to come here and like you said, it's nice looking. So it helps. |
| Everett | You know, we, we probably do need to move on to your watch at some point. Uh, but I have to admit I am a little bit, uh, I find it a little bit. hard to break into the watch, uh, in terms of a simple question, because there's so much going on here, uh, between sort of some of the iconography that you can find on the dial to the name, to the logo. Um, I, I think it makes the most sense to start with the name Mark. Well, and I, I think it also makes sense at this point to break the ice on the idea of this being a Masonic watch or a Masonic inspired watch. I'll let you define that as you like. Um, why don't we get into it? Like what's your connection to the Masonic, uh, fraternity and, and how has that inspired from the name of your brand to your watch? How, how do we factor that in? |
| John Liley | So simple story. I became a Mason 26 years ago. So I'm sure everybody's got that creepy building in their town. I'm one of those guys that goes and meets in that creepy building in your town. No, actually, um, I hang out with your grandfather on the weekends. That's kind of what happens. And yes, I've had a fez and yes, we are affiliated with the Shriners and things of that nature. Um, the Masonic fraternity. So I joined that 26 years ago. And in the concept of that, Mason's just like the Elks and other folks like that. They have their jewelry, et cetera, in the fifties and sixties. In the 50s and 60s, Hamilton and Bolivar and the American watch companies. Did you guys see that? |
| Andrew | Yeah, I have no idea what that was. There was a thumbs down floating on your screen. On my screen? Yeah, it was like, and I saw that I was FaceTiming my boss earlier today. And my coworker who was with her gave me a thumbs up. And then it floated across the screen. So the only thing that makes sense is that somehow the camera picked up some kind of gesture that Everett was doing, picking up his phone and thumbs downed you. But that was not at all what happened. |
| John Liley | So maybe I should start that over. |
| Everett | Yeah. We may not cut this because it's kind of fun. |
| John Liley | Yeah, it is actually kind of fun. Anyway, part of the Masons, part of the historical factions, you could in the past, if you had a Hamilton watch, you could walk into J.C. Penney's. You could walk into Sears. And you could have bought your dad a Hamilton watch or a Boulivaux watch with a dial with the Masonic iconography on it, just like I've got a ring on right now that's got the square compass, the ones that everybody sees, you know, the national treasure, you know, the Vinci code and all that bit. You could buy that dial. So I said to myself, with all my watch collecting, et cetera, I'm into Watches from that mid-century modern type thing and that's kind of a concept of my case on the Mark. Well watch We didn't want to start with a diver and I have a business partner my friend Alan and the two of us together are both masons So we decide you know what what the hell we're just gonna launch the first one with something different Everybody does a diver everybody does purple green blue orange, whatever. Let's not do that. Let's make something classic Something that's a modern interpretation of something that you would have seen in the 50s and 60s. So the first watch that comes out, um, it's in a case that's called Telford. Telford is my grandfather. That's the watch that I had restored. Hamilton used to name their watches after the guy that designed them or a place. That's how you get the Hamilton Rodney or something like that. Who names a watch Rodney? Well, Rodney designed it. So, um, that's where we came with that idea. And then we decided to run with that Masonic case. And then the name itself comes from, oh, it's part of the Masonic lore, so to speak. It's within rituals and it's Mark Mason's. And have you guys been in Europe? |
| Andrew | No, I've not been in Europe. Not for leisure. |
| John Liley | OK. Oh, I see. So. A lot of the cathedrals, a lot of the castles, things like that, the rocks and the stones that were there, when the stonemasons built them, in order to get paid for their day's work, they would put their mark on the stone and they'd count the stones and that's how the guy got paid. So that's a mason's mark. So part of the whole play on words, marking well, making your mark in life, that's where we came up with the name. I agonized on what to call this thing. I had all kinds of crazy names based on nicknames. Part of my history where I'm from, You really don't want to call your watch the New Jersey. I don't think it'll do that well. But, you know, so that's where the name came from. So Markwell just kind of worked. And then the logo, I also agonized. You don't have a logo on your watch. It's just a name, right? |
| Everett | No, we both have logos. And and yeah, that's that's sort of the next thing I wanted to get into. So so take it away. You're right on it. |
| John Liley | Well, so logo. OK, everyone knows, you know, you've got the crown, you've got this, you've got that. Omega's got their symbol. I wanted to make something that stood out and, but didn't quite necessarily make sense for what it was, but I couldn't think of what to do. So Mark, well, M and W, well, I ended up looking like halftime, like a Volkswagen symbol. So that wasn't going to work. And, um, one day I think I was watching YouTube and there was a YouTuber that did like the history of time. And he was talking to like water clocks, sand clocks, the dimension of the hairspring, the way things went. And then they were talking about atomic clocks. And atomic clocks use cesium. I think it's the decay rate that actually figures out the time on an atomic clock. Yeah, that's right. And, uh, I randomly just got on my cell phone, um, and looked for a thumbs up or a thumbs down. And, uh, on my cell phone, as I'm going through Google, um, I looked up cesium and it had a crystalline structure or a geometric representation of cesium. And I go, huh. And then I just rotated it 180 degrees and that's my logo literally. |
| John Liley | We put the logo not only on the dial, but we put the logo on the crown. And even though the watch is like a mid-century design, um, sort of historical type element to the watch, we put the logo and we filled it with luminescent material. And then my daughter, when I was talking to her about it, she goes, well, cesium is radioactive, right? That's why it glows in the dark. Right. And I says, yes, I'm going to go with that. So that's why we put them in the crown. Most of the stuff's happy accidents, to be honest, the name, the logo, You know, but what's not happy accidents are the designs and the pieces and parts and the way I wanted it to be specifically a thoughtful thing, like a polished lug, a chamfer, where the brushing was, where the brushing wasn't. I wanted it to be a watch you could wear every day. Grand Seikos are gray, but they're polished every which way from Sunday. And after about two weeks, it's just scratched to hell. And I didn't want a watch that was all polished. I wanted it to be brushed so you could wear it and still looks nice. You know, the stainless ones have that hard coating on that. And then the, I'm not sure what the name of the coating is, but then on the gold ones, we have a DLC coating. So it's not a PVD. So we try to do that and work it out with both elements. |
| Andrew | I'll say when, when I went over to Everett's house on Sunday to pick up the watch. At some point. |
| Everett | Across the street, right? |
| Andrew | Across the street. He was like, Hey, set a reminder tomorrow to come get something. And I was like, I want to come get it now. He's like, I'm watching a movie. I don't care. I'm watching a movie too. I'm going to come get a watch. And he shows me these two watches and there's a steel and a gold. And never in my life have I ever favored gold over steel. And I'm looking at these two watches and I'm like, I'm going to go home with that gold. That's what I want to wear right now. Will says the gold slaps. I assume that's a good thing. I'm not cool. |
| John Liley | I think that's the word. Yeah. |
| Andrew | Yeah. The gold is that's what this watch was, was meant to be right. |
| John Liley | This, this has a war back then. |
| Andrew | This has every bit of a 1950s, maybe early sixties watch and it should be in gold. It's, it's phenomenal what you, what you did with the colors and the steel is great. The steel is typically my flavor, but with the way you've designed these lugs, The dimensions of the case, this gold is, well, it slaps. Well, it slaps. I've never said that before. |
| John Liley | Interesting. So Alan and I, when we made the initial order, we're like, okay, how many gold, how many steel? So we just, you know, threw the dice and did 50-50. Well, then after we sold the first half dozen and they were all gold, the first six were like, uh-uh. And it was really funny. Until we met with Will over there at Watch Clicker, we had different photos, which were OK. But then once we had his photos up, it really accelerated it. Eventually, the stainless steel caught up with it. And it's about even right now. But I remember when the prototype showed up, and I took him out of the box. My partner just reached over, and he grabbed it. He goes, I'm going to wear that one. And he took the gold one like that. And I've had the stainless one since then. I actually wear mine on my right wrist. |
| Andrew | Yeah, I notice you're dual wielding. You're double-wristing. |
| John Liley | Yeah, well, I have all my watch collection. And I always want to wear that. But then someone says, Don't you have your own company? Oh, yeah. Well, here it is. So I get to wear it over here. Did you know I want to teach you guys a fact if you don't know this, the SW 200, the Solita movement that's in here. I don't have a date on this dial. But the holes are in the same spot for the feet for the for the dial. So you can rotate the movement 180 degrees. |
| Everett | Yeah, you can go. I did know that. Yeah. |
| John Liley | So yes, see, I didn't. And then I learned that. So this is a left hand drive. So the crown's on the other side. So I wear this on my right wrist. And funny enough, the first watch sold, a gold watch, went to my friend, and he used to be on dialysis, he had a kidney transplant. So he's got the large vein on his left arm from the dialysis, and he can't wear a wrist on his watch on his left wrist. So we customized the first one that sold to a left hand drive and sold it to him and he's just pleased his punch. |
| Andrew | So I, I did not have a dialysis, but I, we, I also have an experience of somebody making a left hand drive for me cause I'm a, I'm a right wrist guy. |
| John Liley | Ah, you know my dad and my grandfather and I didn't know this, but you know, they would always wear them on a stretchy bracelet and I've got mine on an old, um, I do, I do collect This is stupid, but I collect these old hair pullers and it's a grains of rice by now from the fifties, but they all wear them on their wrist on the this way. And they wore them on their right, even though they were right handed. And, um, the one time I remember my dad was working on the brakes on our car. I'm like, he's going to break that, but he just took it and slid it up his arm. And then when he was done to the elbow, like a sleeve, that is the truth, man. |
| Everett | That's the 1970s dad move. It is that that's the move. |
| John Liley | Yeah. |
| Andrew | So is there anything in the works to to do expandable bracelets for? |
| John Liley | So I have talked to the manufacturer and there is an opportunity. They're not complicated, but it's we wouldn't be able to do a gold one, I don't think. But the gold one that my business partner has, he literally got a Spydale off of walmart.com or something. That's the way to go. And he put it on there and it looks great. And we both basically have achieved being old men in our 50s by wearing expendable bracelets on our retro watches. |
| Everett | Let's talk a little bit about the case, because we've talked about retro, but we haven't really talked about what this case is. I think we probably ought to go back to the dial at some point, too. But for a second, let's talk about the case, because I think this case, you know, we look at watch pictures all day long. Anybody who's got an Instagram account that's even somewhat related to watches. It's these pictures of watches all day. You know, one of the things that I realized really early in watch collecting is it's really hard to get any sort of sense of scale based on a, based on a picture, a five by four picture. Um, you know, you see that citizen a hundred times and you're like, golly, I really want that citizen. And you get it on your wrist and you're like, what the fuck is this? Yeah. |
| John Liley | Remember the Sepharni? Yeah. I bought one of those and sold it like two weeks later. |
| Everett | You know, so we have this, we, it's really hard to tell, but this watch is, I wouldn't call it diminutive, but it's small in scale. It's a 37 millimeter watch and it wears a 37 millimeter. I mean, this is a watch that is true to the dimension. Sometimes we say where it's bigger, we're smaller. This thing wears 37 millimeter. Yes. It's pleasantly thin. Even with the domed crystal, we're still coming in at just a hair over 10. Um, The case in and of itself is really thin. I don't know the number. I'll let you tell me. Um, but, but really the star of the show is what I've heard you refer to as Eagle claw lugs. I'd never heard that before, but then I looked and I was like, Oh yeah, that works for me. Um, tell me about what, where your head was at when you were designing this case. Uh, you know, what, what were the things you were trying to achieve? I know you've described this as like a mid century, Uh, based in the mid century, obviously that's, that's easy enough to say, but what were the sort of, what were your specific sort of pivot points as you were designing this case? |
| John Liley | Well, you've hit on it and the fact that I wanted it to be comfortable. I didn't want it to be too large. The last thing I would want was to be the typical, let's call it micro brand that goes through a catalog and just picks out a case, picks out a set of hands, picks out a dial, prints it that way and puts it together. So I specifically had like, it's going to, I didn't want 36 cause it was too small. I had a friend that kept telling me 38. So I purposely made it 37 just so it wasn't 38. So I made it 37, but then I wanted the lug to lug to be around 43. Um, I got big paws, man. I'm six, four and 200 pounds and, but I have seven and a quarter inch wrists, but I didn't want it to wear. too small, but I didn't want it to wear too big. You want, I wanted it to be a watch you could wear every day. Um, so that was part of the way. So the lugs themselves don't come out straight. I always hate that you end up with that no most thing where they're too long. Yeah. So then I didn't want them to bend too much. So the lugs are close to the case. In fact, the straps, if you look at the way the spring bars are, the spring bars are curved, even though it's a straight strap as it mates to the case. Oh yeah. Yeah. So we wanted it to fit that way. So then, okay, so we're going to make the lugs the way we made them. So think about it when the plug comes out of the piece of metal and then they stick it in the CNC machine. If you look at the top of the lugs, the brushing is kind of swirled with the way it would have been a cut in the CNC machine on the top of the lugs. But then on the side of the lugs, the brushing goes north to south. And then I'm like, okay, that's just too, that just looks too like it was just made in a machine. So then we added that chamfer that's hand polished in there. The bezel itself is not a bezel. It's part of the case. Yeah. So there's actually a gasket with a crystal, but the one thing I didn't want to do was make it like a traditional bezel. So, you know, there's nothing new under the sun, right? We can agree to that when it comes to watchmaking, but I took little bits and pieces so that bezel look is concave actually. So we did that and then it goes up into the box crystal and that looks like it gives us some height, but it doesn't. So it was all about fit, wear. and the intentional thought when it was put together. But I wanted you to see that when you put it on there, that somebody thought about it. It didn't come out of a box. If that answers the question. |
| Everett | Well, maybe it does. And I think we got close to it. Were there any specific watches that you had in your mind or any specific, um, perhaps like brand language or design language, you know, it's not a secret and you just said it, uh, there's nothing left to invent. Um, were there a specific sort of like, It was the feel of this watch and maybe the element of this watch that really kind of inspired where I went with this. Something like that. |
| John Liley | Yeah. The dial is curved, much like an old Omega. Yeah. So if you looked like an old Seamaster. So I wanted that with a box crystal. So there was going to be that part. As far as the case in the lugs, you would see similar type lugs way back when. There wasn't any specific watch. It's kind of an amalgamation of like an old Belova and maybe a Hamilton. That's where I came up with that name Rodney. There is a Rodney watch that looks something like that. Um, so that's kind of where the so in the concept of the construct of putting the watch together, I wanted you to see it and go, huh, that's new. But then that's kind of familiar to at the same time. So that way, when you put it on, just the way we set it up, right down to the way the crowns made. Let's talk about the dial a little bit. |
| Andrew | So first, I want to comment on on the case design, the curvature of the dial. So this concave bezel, if you will, kind of lifts the watch up You have this curved bezel that grabs some more light. And when you look at it, my, my first thought was, man, this is going to wear big cause it looks big. And then I put it on and it's not, and I was like, no, it doesn't work. |
| Everett | It doesn't, it doesn't work. |
| Andrew | No, it is. It's fascinating. Like I would, I would liken it to the way that Christopher Ward has, has used that light catcher case to, to, accomplish a strange, like an optical illusion in the watch that you're wearing. |
| Everett | Yeah. You know, I would say I'm going to differentiate this, but you know, we've said, we've said to Mike France, to his face on this show, you know, you're, you're playing tricks, right? This is an optical illusion. We've, I think we called it watch spanks, right? You know, you're not doing that here. This is not Watch Spanx. It actually just is the size it is. There's no tricks here. This just, you know, for me, I have this anatomical hollow in my wrist, which I think a lot of people do, not everybody, but a lot of people have a similar sort of anatomical valley in their wrist, which can accommodate X amount of watches. You know, obviously there's a lot of deliberation. when you're designing a watch, but the way the lugs come into the case, it just seems to me like, oh, this thing was built for my wrist. Like if I was going to go to a bespoke suit maker, perhaps in Hong Kong or whatever, they're going to measure my body and they're going to make the suit fit the curves and the valleys. of my body so that when it lays, it's going to be perfect. This watch does that on my wrist. And I appreciate you for thinking about me. Um, but yeah, there's no watch Spanx here. There's no illusion. There's no optical illusion. It just fits. It's great. Yeah, it just fits. |
| John Liley | I, um, thanks guys. That means a lot. I mean, I really did think about that right into you know how you talk about how it lifts that the bezel lifts it up into the crystal and rolls in and then the dial underneath rolls underneath into the center of the watch where we've put the crosshairs underneath the hands that kind of brings your eye to the center and brings it in again i i don't want to get nomos syndrome where you've got on a big you know i used to have a long jeans was an admiral or whatever it was a remake or whatever that watch just always wore too big for me it was all too much dial the bevel on the bezel just wasn't right. So those are things I thought about. So right down to, yes, our first dial on this watch, it has Masonic iconography on it because it's kind of a reproduction of something way back when our next dials, because I think dials sell watches. Honestly, I think there's a lot to that. I mean, yes, it's important as we've just talked about this case, but our next dials will be sort of a bullseye, a bullseye type design. There'll be a date. And it'll bring your eye in closer to the middle. So I'm going to mess with you even more on the next one, I promise. |
| Andrew | Well, so so you've touched on it. Let's talk about this dial, because these are unique dials. These are not something like what we see now. So let's let's hear it. |
| John Liley | Yeah. OK, so I've said it a million times back in the day, you could walk into the store, you could buy your dad a watch. It would have the skull and crossbones on it, or it'd have the square and compass and the G that you would see on the Masonic building in town. All the little elements that come from the Masons and those watches. I mean, it used to go historically back into the 1800s. People had them on pocket watches. I collected Masonic dial watches. I have one that's over a hundred years old that has the same iconography on here. So it's not just something that Hamilton watch developed in 1950. It's been around in the zeitgeist of the human you know, watch collecting scene. So that's why we put these on the dial. And yeah, it's kind of niche. You don't have to be a Mason to buy this. We're not a Masonic watch company. We're just a company that put out a Freemasons dialed watch. None of it's copyrighted, thankfully. Right down to where it says Mastermatic. That's even a play. It's an automatic watch, but you know, the everyday Mason's a Master Mason. That's the guy on the worksite. You know, that's the guy that's making his mark in life. That's the guy that's working. So we called it a master medic. That's just another thing I pulled out of there like everything else. |
| Andrew | Is there a, uh, relevance to the positioning of the symbols around the dial? |
| John Liley | Good question. |
| Andrew | So that's what was historically done. I like knowing just, uh, just a touch about, Freemason kind of philosophy. There's nothing's random. |
| John Liley | Right. Correct. Yeah. I mean, there's some stuff in the bit, even like I say in the name, okay, the sun's at six o'clock, right? Well, that's high noon, the high noon of each day. Um, you know, the other bit, if you look, I should put my own glasses on. Um, I think it's around seven o'clock. There's a ruler, right? That ruler is a 12 inch gauge or a 12 inch gauge. You know, that would split up your day into three equal parts, right? So the high noon is going to be at the center at six o'clock. The square compass with the G is going to sit at the center. Part of the symbols represent different officers in the lodge. So real easy, basic masonry. Let's talk about the lodge at the end of the street. You have an entered apprentice. That's the guy that just joins. Then he graduates to Fellowcraft and then he becomes a master mason. There's nothing secret about any of that in the sense that they were based on stonemasons way back in the day. So an apprentice was the guy that busted rocks. The Fellowcraft was the guy that carved them and put them together and made his mark. And the master mason, he knew the secrets. What were the secrets? He could read and write. So he was the guy that was doing all the, um, blueprints and following the rules. And he was the overseer on the site. He was the one that worked with people. So as you go around, you can see the implements and tools of masonry and architecture. And each one of these represents officers in the lodge. There's a square on there. So let's think about everyday language, guys. There's a lot of Freemasonry in everyday language. You'll hear someone, are you being square with me? Are you giving me a square deal? Are we on a level here? Well, those elements are right there on your dial. Those things come from Freemasonry. OK, you talked about golfing with your friend there. You know, hey, man, I tried to get into this club for years and I got blackballed. Somebody in there doesn't like me. I can't. I can't join the golf club. Well, Masons, when you join a lodge, they vote with the white balls and black balls. It's got to be unanimous ballot. If there's a black ball in the ballot, you don't get in. So all these little everyday things right down to our name, Mark. Well, making your mark in life. And then this watch specifically, the case is called Telford, much like old Hamilton watches were named after the designer. Telford was my grandfather. So this is the Telford case. He was also a Mason. Um, this watch is called the Memento Mori. So Memento Mori, now remember you're going to die. Remember thou art mortal. Um, so on the back of the watch in the glass on the back of the watch, if you can see it in light, it's not supposed to be specific. There's a skull and crossbones there. That's always with you. That reminds you time is ticking away. And we didn't have to put it on the dial, so we put it on the back and that's part of it. And if you look at any of the watch news aggregators, you'll see that Hublot copied me today and now they have got a Memento Mori watch. So I'll be talking to you. You can send them a letter as my attorney and we'll see what kind of money we can get out of them. |
| Andrew | The sticker, when I removed it from the case back, I couldn't make out that it was a skull and crossbones. I could just see the edge of it. And I was like, how is, how did I smudge this already? And I, I, it was an embarrassing 30 seconds. |
| Everett | He got out the turpentine and. |
| Andrew | Of like, I, I like, I wiped it with my thumb and I'm like. |
| Everett | 12,000 grit sandpaper. I was like, Andrew, chill out. |
| Andrew | These aren't our watches. Kitchen towel out of this, out of the drawer. I'm like wiping it and, and like, I'm looking and I'm like, Oh, that's so subtle. Yeah. |
| John Liley | And that's the idea. Like if you go, like we were just in Boston, like a year ago, my wife and I, and if you look at the old tombstones, which correspond to the old tombstones that you would see in Europe, Freemasonry started in the UK, England, Ireland, Scotland, you'll see old skulls and crossbones. It's not necessarily a Masonic symbol. It's a life and death symbol. It was on a lot of different gravestones and things. Again, it's that same phrase. Remember, your time is coming. You've got limited amount of time. So That's why we named this Masonic Watch, our first entry, the Memento Mori, and we put it on there. You will see fake dials, Asian copies all over eBay and stuff. And what do they do? They put the skull and crossbones all over everything. They're everywhere. The only skull and crossbones we see when we go to Lodger, guys that bought T-shirts on eBay. I mean, that's about it. The standard deal, you're going to see that squaring compass with the G. People always ask what that G stands for. It refers back to math, geometry. It also refers to deity because all Masons have to have a belief in a supreme being, but it can be anybody. It's not a doctrine. So anybody, any religion, non-denominational, as long as they have a belief in a supreme being can be a Mason. So that's why we put it there. |
| Andrew | Yeah. Well, let's talk about what's next. So one of the questions that I had was using the SW 200 with a ghost date, uh, and, and you've sort of explained it. So, so what's next? |
| John Liley | Well, Ghost date. It does have a ghost date and that's an economy deal. You can buy a bunch of movements with and without a date. You can get a lot of movements with a date and just not use the date and have that ghost position. I know we as collectors kind of stress over things like that. Average Joe doesn't necessarily do that. But the question was, do we want to make the watches more expensive just so we don't have a date or do we want to produce that product? The next watch, No surprise, the Datematic will be in this case. It'll have a bullseye dial. It'll have the crosshairs in the center. And we're working on, is it the pole router? Kind of has like a trapezoid date position. We've got it set up where you can kind of see the date coming and going. It's like kind of a little bit halves and halves. |
| Andrew | Yesterday, today, tomorrow. I love this. |
| John Liley | Yeah, I like that. All right. Thanks. I'll steal that. Yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Thank you so very much. I'll run that into a YouTube somewhere. Um, yeah, so we're doing that. The other thing you'll notice, and then this one specifically, the second hand, it's got a red tip on the end. |
| Everett | All the way out. You know, I'd be remiss not to mention that second hand that gets all the way out, which I love. |
| John Liley | And that was, and I did that on purpose because that's something that always pissed me off too. If it wasn't there, you'll also notice the second hand and the minute hand are curved to the dial. So we did bend them. |
| Everett | Didn't notice. Did you do that with tweezers? |
| John Liley | You just... Oh, yeah, they are. No, I think the guy just hit him with a hammer. A little smack. Yeah, but they are bent down on the end. Again, another intentional piece in part. But on the new ones that we're coming out with, the seconds hand will probably correlate to either the dial color or the date wheel, believe it or not. I'm one of those ones that likes matching date wheels with the dials. You know, I don't want to just do... Again, it's intentional. I just don't want a white date wheel with a black date on it. And we want to do some different things. So that's kind of what we're working on our next one. We have a field watch and we're looking at and possibly we're dreaming about that 90-75 movement. Yeah. Yeah. It's just a question of how we're going to incorporate it. We've got an idea. My partner and I sit there over a desk and draw pictures and come up with names. We think we've got that hammered down. As you guys know, it's all about how much money you've got to throw into it. Mm-hmm. We've launched in January. We've sold about 25% of the stock that we have right now. So that's pretty good We self-funded we didn't do any You know buy now get later type stuff. We did that on purpose My friends has built a couple of really successful businesses and he's done it on cash and he's all about this organic growth So that's kind of how we're gonna do it and it might take a little longer But at least we won't owe anybody when it's done. That's kind of how we're looking at it So it might take a little bit, but we're probably going to have those date dial watches, at least by June, we think that's quick. So, yeah, well, you know, we started a couple of months. This took from last January to this. Basically, it'll Christmas. It took a year to get to this point. That's how it goes. |
| Everett | Yeah. Yeah. Well, listen, folks, sorry, the Markwell Memento Mori, this is a 37 millimeter, 10 and a half millimeter thick. 43 millimeter lug to lug with a 20 millimeter lug width. Great decision, by the way. We've got a sapphire crystal. We've got a hundred meters of water resistance. This watch is amazingly sized. One of the best cases under a thousand dollars that I've ever held. And I say that not even a little bit lightly, the finishing on this thing is stunning. $969 available today. Also the leather strap, sorry, sorry. |
| John Liley | The leather strap here. I know, I know. |
| Everett | I know, and I'm not going to hesitate to say this is not an expensive leather strap, but it is exquisite. The leather looks so freaking good. You guys did a great job. You did a great job matching the colors, the anthracite with the steel and the brown with the gold. Fantastic colors. This is a great watch. Thank you. Well done. Well done, John. |
| John Liley | Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate it. Same thing with straps. What's the worst thing when you buy a watch? It's got a plastic type strap. And what's the first thing you do? You buy another one. And I didn't want you to have to go and buy another strap. |
| Everett | No, no, no. I'm wearing this because it's gorgeous. It's got like an oil. This is what I call an oil finish. Maybe that's not the appropriate term. And it's just it's just beautiful. And it fits the watch really well. Polished, amazing, beautiful, polished clasp. You know, we all kind of know at this point how this thing works. Anybody listening to the show is knows how this stuff works. Everything just, everything's the way you'd want it, which is, which is what, what we would expect, I think. So well executed, great watch. Um, unfortunately, unfortunately, unless there's anything you're dying to say about this watch or Markwell or yourself, I think we're going to transition to other things. And, and, and John, I, I'd like to start with you. We normally start with our guests when we do other things. Do you got another thing for the folks today? |
| John Liley | I have two things because I'm a fan. |
| Everett | That is, uh, that's not allowed, but we'll allow it all the time. |
| John Liley | Well, okay. I thought you guys, yeah, you guys do break the rules often. Um, so every year, uh, probably the beginning of the year because of holidays and everything else I try to go on, you know, like a high protein tonic carnivore type thing. Cause what, what wouldn't be cool except for beef, beef, bacon, butter, and eggs. I'm flipping through my Instagram and I find this lotion. And I'm like, OK, I have the same haircut, you know, that one of you has and not much. It's Andrew, by the way. |
| Everett | He has the same haircut as Andrew. It's me. I'm the guy. |
| John Liley | Yeah, it's yeah. Once a week, just buzz buzz. So the one thing I have to do and I live in the state with like the highest rate of skin cancer in the country because we're all at altitude. But I found this cream like a lotion and it's called Forge. And it might be Forge something or other, but it's a tallow. So it's carnivore cream. So it's a tallow based cream. You're not going to smell like Crisco. It's got rosemary and lemongrass and a few things in it. And I just love it. You get out of the shower and I put it on my face and my head and I think I've bought into the hype. It sucks into your skin. It's not oily. And my wife being a vegan, I really don't want to tell her. |
| Andrew | Is this the wrinkle defense tallow bomb? |
| Everett | Don't don't tell the wife. |
| John Liley | No, no, no. She's bad enough when I'm eating all that bacon. But yeah, so it's in a little it's in a little tub called I think it's just the cream. Yeah, it sounds weird. It sounds strange. But I love it. I mean, you know, I don't think it was cheap, but at the same time, you know, there's this whole story about, you know, it's the old days to how people would make all that. Yeah, it was the tallow based products. So I'm going to go with it. |
| Everett | You know, it's a perfect other thing. It's weird. It's something that anyone ever hasn't ever heard of. And it's something that somebody at home might be like, you know, I saw that and that's fucking weird. But like, yeah, that's the perfect other thing. Like, hey, I tried this and I actually really like it. It doesn't smell bad. And I love the way it feels. No, it's great. |
| Andrew | I'd be super OK smelling like beef tallow all day, though. |
| Everett | You do smell like beef tallow. So well done. |
| John Liley | Yeah. Yeah. But then, you know, cats will chase you and want to lick your head. Whatever. I, so then the other thing I have, so I'm on week five, it's on Apple TV is Masters of the Air. |
| Everett | Oh, yeah. Yeah. |
| John Liley | Yeah. So my maternal grandfather, not the Mason, was a radio operator in a B-17. I can tell you the B-17s they have on the show are B-17Es. He was in a B-17G. He was a little bit later. I have his logs. He did all his missions and came back and being a radio operator, I had the opportunity a few years ago to fly in a B-17 and strap right in the chair in the radio operator's chair. And when you can see those cables moving in the aluminum walls, and then you watch your first masters of the air and they go out over Germany and the bombs and the guys are standing in these things, shooting those 50 cows. Uh, it gives you a whole perspective for, you know, your grandfather, who you loved and thought was great. And at 20 something years old, he was up there shooting down Messerschmitts and, uh, Masters of the Air. If you haven't seen it, it's pretty cool. One of the pilots wears a stretchy bracelet with his watch on the inside of his wrist. And I believe it's a Hamilton Bolton because I'm a geek like you guys and I figured that out. But yeah, if you haven't watched that show, I would definitely give it a watch. |
| Everett | You know, much like Band of Brothers or I think maybe Saving Private Ryan was one of the first sort of same put you in the seat type of of war flick. Uh, you know, that first 40 minutes of masters of the air is like really, um, I, I wish there had been an opportunity to see that in the theater because it's so frenetic and frantic and dynamic and really at times scary, uh, uh, and exciting. And, and you, you know, you're like, you turn this thing on and you're like, you know, Oh, this is going to be a show about war. And then you're like, Oh my gosh, what have we gotten into? It's really, you talked about seeing the cables move. I mean, you were for, for 30 minutes, you were in that airplane and you know, in the ship, you're in an airplane in the shit. And it's like, Holy cow. |
| Andrew | The only critique I have of that show, cause I love the show. The story's great. Everything is great. The cinematography is, |
| John Liley | It's too clean. I know what you mean. It almost looks like the CGI parts are either on purposely made not to look too real or kind of real. I don't know how else to explain it. I mean, I'm sure it was clear up there, but it's pretty sharp. I guess that's the word. If you're watching on a big TV. |
| Andrew | But it's sharper than even human vision. These these other greats that it's kind of following in the footsteps of we look at Band of Brothers or we look at the Pacific or we look at, you know, even Saving Private Ryan, which is kind of, you know, as you say, the the origin, it's shot in these older formats. |
| John Liley | Oh, yeah. |
| Andrew | That just make it kind of sepia, more sepia. Yeah. Just kind of gritty. And it's just a little too clean and sharp for me in the way of like imagery, but everything else is great. I just can't get over. I'm like, I feel like I'm playing a video game. |
| Everett | You know, in photography, in photography for portraits, there's this idea that for portraiture, uh, a longer lens gives you compression, right? Compression is this idea where your subject is separated from the background by way of a longer lens compressing the background, giving you more depth of field. And so, you know, a portrait lens might be 80 or even 100 millimeters to give you that compression, which means, which makes a lot of people use macro lenses in portraiture because a macro lens is the right length oftentimes. Most macro lenses for a full frame camera are in that 100 millimeter range. One of the criticisms of doing that is that you get these incredibly, you know, macro lenses are by their nature, super sharp. And some people, some people criticize portraiture taken with a macro lens because it's too sharp. And I think that's, I think that that's maybe part of what's going on here is the cinematography and the camera work is so clean and so sharp that it disrupts the, the emotional sensation that you're feeling. And, and, and so, well, I actually didn't have a negative reaction. I think that's maybe what you're talking about. It's so clean and so sharp and you want a little bit more grit. |
| Andrew | Yeah. Cause what Satan Pepper Ryan was shot in what? 35 millimeter. I think maybe, I'm not sure. Yeah. |
| John Liley | It seems dirt dirtier. Like you feel like you're in the mud. Yeah. |
| Andrew | Like you're in it, you're in the mud. And when you're in a movie like that, when you're put into it, you want like that immersive, that immersion. Is lost. |
| Everett | Yeah. The, whatever that, that sensation, that dirty sensation is not there. Yeah. |
| John Liley | You talk about that. And if you swing it back into the watches real quick, you talk about the macro, like you take a dial, for instance, like a dial on my watch and you zoom in the guy that did the dial drew all those little symbols in vector. So when you zoom in on a picture, they, they don't lose any of their, uh, pixelization. But when you talk to a watchmaker. There's like this 10-inch rule. If you can look at it 10 inches away without a loop, and you don't see any dust, that's good enough for the watch world. They're good with it. But all us, you know, people that YouTube and get out of loop and everything, we're right underneath it. Oh, there's a speck of dust right there. And the watchmaker's like, no, it's OK. |
| Andrew | Oh, fuck that neck beard. |
| Everett | Well, and I'll say something because this is a printed dial. Your pad printer is tight on it. Yeah. The pad printing on this. It is pad printed, I assume. Yeah, that's correct. Yeah. The pad printing on this is some of the best I've ever seen. You know, we went Vero used to make all the watches in the United States and Portland. We went and visited their site and saw their pad printing set up. And it was also really, really, really good. This is some of the best pad printing I've seen outside of outside of Vero's work. |
| Andrew | So we were in Vero's work was like a boutique. Like, yeah, yeah. |
| John Liley | When they came back, we were shocked. One more thing on the on the masters of the air. A couple of years ago, my mom's cousin sent me a packet of letters that were from my grandfather. And I didn't know this. So I moved to Utah 30 years ago. during the war prior to being shipped over, they were stationed here. And my grandfather was stationed here in Salt Lake Valley on the other side of the valley. And that's where the bombing school was. And then they would bomb out on the West Desert out on the salt flats where the Bonneville salt flat racing is. And that's where the Enola Gay was actually out there in a hangar on the border with Nevada. But he was here. And that's where the B-17 crews were. There's an old movie, Devil's Brigade. in the 60s, and that was filmed in Utah. And it talked about like the first thing Bob Dole was in. It was like special forces. Yeah, that's right. You know, that's what that movie was about. And they shot the movie out at the old base where the bombers were, which is now a town in the valley here with its own zip code. But I found that out. I've got letters from him addressed from Salt Lake City from way back in the day. Fantastic. That's cool. Yeah, it's kind of cool. Anyway, thanks for that. |
| Andrew | Andrew, you got another thing. I do have another thing. I don't remember what it is, though. I got to pull it up. Oh, so I watched a... You're the worst. I watched a new Netflix show recently, and it's a limited series, and it's called American Nightmare. And I... Are you familiar with the movie Gone Girl? |
| John Liley | Mm-hmm. |
| Andrew | So the tile is like the true story of Gone Girl, and I was like, eh, whatever, I'll watch this. And it starts out and I kind of have like this vague memory. I was like, Oh, I sort of remember this thing happening and like somewhere in the like 2010 zone that this lady disappeared, claimed she was kidnapped. And then turns out it was all fake. Yeah. Like I kind of remember that. And I'm watching this documentary and I'm like, but that lady went to jail and, and I'm in this documentary and that's exactly what it is. This couple, they're asleep in their home at night. They are woken up by lasers on them, flashlights in their face, dudes in wetsuits and, and goggles giving them orders. And, and girl gets taken, she's gone. And the dude gets told like, Hey, like he wake, like they give him some injection. And when he wakes up in the morning, there's like a note or something that says, if you leave this red box or call the police, we'll hurt. I don't remember her name. It doesn't matter. We'll hurt her. And there's a camera installed in his living room. And he's now in a, in a, in a bit of a pickle. Ultimately he calls the police and they don't believe him. And they just kind of stopped the investigation. They're like, obviously you did it, man. So they're cadaver dogging his neighborhood, looking for her body. And he, meanwhile, he's in this panic. She shows up. at her parents' house, a couple hundred miles away in Southern California, two days later, and doesn't say a word. It's just like, no, I'm back. It's fine, whatever. And they both get charged. And so this whole show, American Nightmare, is this documentary of this case unraveling over a couple years, I think, if we look at the timeline, of from her being taken to them getting charged to ultimately an almost identical crime occurring counties away and some detective is like, well, that was weird. |
| John Liley | Yeah. |
| Andrew | And then ultimately, ultimately the guy gets caught and then they, you know, obviously they're, um, Oh, what's the word I'm looking for? Um, I don't know. Redeemed in their claims. Like, no, everything that happened to us was real. |
| John Liley | Yeah. Yeah. |
| Andrew | They're validated because, Among the pieces of evidence is a piece of her hair. It's this really fascinating, like, bizarro, everything that can go wrong and doesn't make sense happens. It is, I think, four episodes on Netflix, maybe five. Super good, like, really good true crime stuff that's, like, simultaneously true crime and conspiracy all kind of wrapped up into itself. And it was it was a quick watch. I really liked it. I think it was like a two nights of of effort. American Nightmare. Yeah. |
| John Liley | I wrote it down. |
| Andrew | It was not the show that I thought it was because I do remember a whole other story that a lady claimed she'd been kidnapped. Wasn't and did go to jail for it. That's what I thought I was watching. That's not what I was watching. This was something I was wholly unaware of occurring. Yeah. It was I liked it. I was I was having fun. Yeah, it was fun. It was the whole time. And it's obviously them, right? It's, it's like fairly contemporaneous, right? This isn't even a 20 year old case. So it's these people. It's just happened, right? Yeah. It's these people who are like still emotionally raw from it, giving their interviews. They look the same way in their doc interviews as they do in their police interviews. Okay. Right. And that's, that's meaningful. Yeah. Cause usually it's like, you know, You see the police interview of this kid and then it's this, you know, 70 year old dude giving the documentary interview. |
| John Liley | Right. Showing videotape from, you know, NBC show from 25 years ago. Yeah. |
| Andrew | And it's like you recognize the anchors. |
| John Liley | Yeah. |
| Everett | Yeah. Oh, whoa. This is new. Yeah. That's, you know, juxtapose that with the the Netflix series that came out about in Waco a few years ago. And. Right. Everybody's so, you know, these people have all completely changed or not, you know, for better or worse. Ah, yeah, that's an interesting, it's interesting to sort of get it and like, so contemporaneous, so so close to real time. So I've also got a show for my other thing. Oh, do me. I Yeah, we've got three, three for three shows and some beef towel lotion. I watched several years ago, I watched the very first season of True Detective. Which At the time, I thought, you know, I'm not sure where they're going to go with this, but this is probably one of the best platforms for, you know, long-term success of True Detective. That first season, just every single minute of that show, I was floored and ready for more. The characters were brilliant. The actors were brilliant. Season two came out, and I think season two was a bit of a letdown for most people, myself included. Season two was Vince Vaughn, right? Vince Vaughn, yeah. |
| Andrew | They were too slow and then too fast. |
| Everett | And Colin Farrell. And then season three came out, Mahershala Ali, and I thought, well, okay, now we're getting somewhere. HBO's been teasing season four for about six months now. Jodie Foster's set in Alaska, I think it was six episodes and I've just finished it. It was either five or six episodes. I've just finished this with my wife. I don't want, I'm not going to spoil anything. I'm not going to spoil anything. What I will tell you is that for about four episodes, I was like, what are they doing? Like, I want to watch this. I'm really into it, but I kind of can't believe that this is happening. You know, You come down to earth at some point. Uh, you come down to earth at some point and, and I will say that they did a good job with where they took it. And I didn't hate the way they finished. I don't know that I love the ending that the setting is in Alaska. There is, it's a very small town. I don't know where in Alaska, somewhere up on the Arctic circle, there's a research facility. people at the research facility die. That's not much of a spoiler. I think you get that in the first, you know, 13 minutes of the show. Um, the entire, the entire, or almost the entire research facility winds up dying and it's really sort of mysterious, supernatural even. Um, Jodie Foster is, I think as good as I've ever seen Jodie Foster, obviously one of these actors that has had, an entire damn lifetime in movies. I mean, literally Jodie Foster has been in movies since she was a babe. Um, and, and now she's a, a mature woman. Um, you know, I don't know how old Jodie Foster is, uh, certainly older than me. Yeah. That's what I was thinking. She's 61. And, and so, you know, this is a person that we've known for years who's had some amazing roles. Uh, it is, I think for me, maybe her strongest role that she's ever played in her career, you know, and I can think of, you know, contact in particular. I thought that movie was just terrific. And I thought she really owned that role. She owns this role and she was great. There are actors, you'll know, um, it's maybe sort of not quite as big a budget in terms of cast as some of the prior seasons, but the cast that they did get in place is all really good. Um, the energy of the show is good. It keeps you going until the last minute. Um, but I'll just say my other thing is not like a glowing endorsement. Uh, I've heard some really negative things. I don't feel quite as negative as some other people have. Um, it's the type of show where you get to the end and you're like, that's what you did. All right. I don't hate it, but I, I want you to have done something else, but I'm not sure it's because it was bad. I think it's because it was, they had to make decisions and they made decisions. So my other thing, not a ringing endorsement. |
| John Liley | Let me ask you a question though. You, when you say bring it back down to earth, do you mean they'd literally left the planet or they just brought you back down to earth on the story? |
| Everett | Well, you know, there's no, without spoiling it. |
| John Liley | Yeah. |
| Everett | There's no flight, but the story gets pretty out there and Um, I would say it, it comes without spoiling anything. It comes back and they don't, they don't, not everything gets resolved. Some things get resolved. I did hear, uh, somebody give me a, uh, a review, a thirdhand review or a secondhand review, uh, likening it to an episode of Scooby doo. Well, that's not unfair. Well, that's not unfair. It's obviously also not completely fair. So, uh, take a look. I think it's worth the watch. It's, you know, not a particularly long season, so the investment's relatively low and it's worth it. It's really good. The direction is really good. The acting is really good. The story's good, decent, I would say. Um, it's, it's really well made. I think you'll have to draw your own conclusions about the story and where they go and where they land, but it's fantastically done and it's beautiful. Um, you know, Alaska is super dark and the entirety of this show, it is dark. Is it like Black Panther dark? No, it is actually just not ever light, uh, that kind of dark. So it's in an area of Alaska where there are several weeks of no sunlight and the entire show takes place during those days. Hmm. Yeah, I'm into it. Yeah, it's worth it. It's worth it. I'll watch it. I'll recommend it with some caveats. |
| Andrew | I mean, the caveats are it's True Detective and after season one, there's been a struggle. Modern TV really struggles with timing and tempo of shows. |
| Everett | Yeah. Okay, here we are. We've done it once again. John Liley, thank you for joining us. I want to direct you folks at home to markwellwatches.com, which is where you can see the Memento Mori. I would also direct you to the website of the Horological Society of Utah. You can also, if you want, you can Google John Liley because he's a fucking interesting dude who's done some interesting things. We didn't get a chance to talk about bike touring on BMWs or, um, you know, being an ordained minister with the universal life church or any number of things that I would have liked to pick your brain about with that said, uh, John's actually a human being. He's got, uh, some Instagram handles that you may be able to reach him at. If you're so inclined, where, where can folks find you, John? |
| John Liley | Mark Will Watches, of course, for Instagram. Other people might know me as WatchSolace, not WatchSolice, but WatchSolace. I can't remember where I came up with that stupid name. And then, of course, I've got my own name and then my business, my other part of my life, Mortgage Alchemist. But I try to turn people's dreams into gold, you know. So, yeah. So, yeah, that's where you can find me. Thank you. |
| Everett | Well, hey, I want to thank you for joining us for the last 90 minutes of your life. I really appreciate you taking the time and I appreciate you sending us these watches to try on for a couple of weeks. And yeah, thanks. Thanks, John. I'm excited to see where Markwell goes next and what you guys have in store. Appreciate it. Thanks, folks. And I also want to thank you. I want to thank you people, you people at home listening to us. I want to thank you. for joining us for this episode of 40 and 20, the Watch Clicker podcast. Do me a favor. You can check us out at watchclicker.com. That's our website. You can also check out John Liley at markwellwatches.com. If you want to check us out on Instagram, social media, you can do that on Instagram at 40 and 20 or at, excuse me, at 40 and 20 underscore watch clicker or at watch clicker. That's where we post updates about what we're doing on the website. If you want to support us, and oh boy, I hope you do, you can do that at Instagram.com slash, nope, man, Patreon.com slash 40 and 20. That's where we get all the support for what we're doing here. Uh, for those of you supporting us, we really genuinely deeply thank you. And if you're not supporting us, check us out at Patreon.com. And don't forget to tune in next Thursday for another hour of watches, food, drinks, life. and other things we like. Buh-bye! |