Episode 28 - The State of Microbrands

Published on Wed, 08 May 2019 21:49:00 -0700

Synopsis

The podcast hosts Andrew and Everett discuss the state of microbrand watches, including the distinction between "true" microbrands driven by passion versus those simply capitalizing on direct-to-consumer trends. They explore factors like pricing, design decisions, quality of components, and the challenges smaller brands face with minimum order quantities. The conversation touches on microbrands like EMG, Halios, Farer, Nizam, Monta, NTH, and others. Andrew and Everett also recommend some YouTube videos, books, and a Netflix movie at the end.

Transcript

Speaker
Andrew Hello, fellow watch lovers, nerds, enthusiasts, or however you identify. This is the 40 in 20 podcast with your host, Andrew and my good friend Everett. Here, we talk about watches, food, drinks, life, and other things we like. Everett, how are you?
Everett I'm not, I'm not on my A game. I am, it's solid B game tonight.
Andrew Well, you know what? B's are better than C's and D's get degrees. So here we are. And I just told you, it doesn't have to be the A game. Because it's just us. And whoever's drinking beer with us tonight. It's just us. Speaking of.
Everett Me too. Yeah. No, you know, we've been just absolutely crazy with, you know, the kids are both playing baseball and all the sort of spring stuff. Kids are getting ready for summer. There's play dates. The teachers are going on strike. I had to drive to Roseburg for a court appearance today. It's just been crazy. Bedlam.
Andrew And never mind. New job. new environment, that whole, that whole stress. Like I don't work long hours, but I am very tired. And all the things that I used to do when I came home from work, I don't have the energy to do anymore. Last night I spent, I'm not exaggerating, four hours folding laundry. It was not four hours worth of laundry, but I spent that much time on it because I'd fold like eight pieces of clothing. And then have to take a break. And then have to take a break. And I got sweaty because for some reason of all the things in my life that I do, folding laundry makes me the sweatiest. If I fold laundry for an hour, like four loads of laundry, or go and run two miles, I'm more sweaty after folding laundry.
Everett You know, I think part of that is, you know, it's hot when it's coming out of the dryer, so it's hot. Oh, it wasn't fresh out of the dryer.
Andrew Who folds laundry out of the dryer? I mean, I was trying to help you out, brother. No, it was laundry that had been in baskets. I've been dressing out of baskets for a week. Yeah, I get that. So I did the laundry like in the midst of the folding, did the laundry that had been building up for the last week. But yeah, no, definitely more sweaty after four loads of laundry than two miles of running. Right.
Everett Well, I appreciate you for your contribution to your familial unit. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I've done no such no such endeavor this week. I've taken on no such endeavor. I I did uh, wash some dishes tonight In order to cook and well, yeah. No, actually I washed I washed all the big stuff You know kim is is pretty good about getting in the kitchen doing the small stuff But she always leaves the big stuff and we both do that, right? I say kim i'm blaming kim, but but really we both do it We'll get in we'll you know, load the dishwasher kind of put the stuff away that needs, you know Stuff sitting on the counter and then we'll leave the big shit, you know, so there's like the colander and the big frying pan and, you know, maybe a mixing bowl. And it just, it'll sit there for like, you know, eight months in a pile with some sort of petrified cookie dough on it or something. And so I, I got home today and I knew Kim wanted, wanted to get the kitchen clean. And so I just first things first. Yeah. You were still in work clothes when I came over. Man, I was, I mean, we just, we had just gotten home in the last 20 minutes. So. you know these baseball games they start at six which is wonderful because if they start at four then you have to try like get off work but you know then they're not over till 7 45 right which is way past kids bedtime it's past the kids bedtime seriously it is so then we still have to get them home give them dinner uh you know fortunately the teachers are striking so there's no school tomorrow that's great for everyone we have uh we have the fortune and misfortune of having a two-piece a two-part sink
Andrew So I could still do all the sink necessities with half of my sink loaded to the brim with dishes. And I, on more than one occasion, have just relocated all the dishes and neatly stacked them in the big side.
Everett You can get more in there if you neatly stack them.
Andrew Oh, yeah, I do that. I've done that instead of like, which takes more time than just unloading the dishwasher. But I find myself doing that pretty regularly.
Everett You can get like a good two weeks worth of dishes in a kitchen if you stack them.
Andrew Yeah, neatly. You know, all the silverware goes in a coffee mug, and then when that coffee mug's full, it starts to cozy into the next one. That's right. You know, your plates, and the bowls, and the kid bowls.
Everett Low center of gravity on coffee mugs. That's a pro tip.
Andrew Exactly. Put a little soap in the bottom, fill it with water. Silverware holder. You're welcome, y'all.
Everett Yeah, and it'll hold silverware for as long as you want it to. Two weeks, six months, a year. It'll hold it until you're out of silverware.
Andrew That's right. And then it's soaked in soap water, so all you have to do is wipe it. Pull out two forks.
Everett Clean. Been there. Yeah. I did get new glasses. You did. I got new glasses. I like them. Thank you. I had to, I, so I, I went, you know, my prescription has been changing annually, which is brutal. Um, but I got, I, I had had the same pair of glasses for I think four years, five years. And so I thought, ah, it's time to get some new glasses, at least just to have a second pair. Uh, so about two weeks ago I went and ordered these, um, and, Saturday morning driving up to Salem for drill and my glasses broke my my daily drivers broke so I guess while driving Yeah, I think I just kind of went to like shake them on my face and the one of the What do you call it one of the hinges the metalhead fatigued and it just So I the timing couldn't have been better. I called the eyeglass place and said are they ready and they were like, we'll have a Monday morning So but yeah now I have new glasses They're made in Brooklyn by a company called Modo.
Andrew They look good. They kind of fit the like Al Roker feel that he's been going with lately. They're clear, like not a really ostentatious color. Yeah, they're clear, totally clear.
Everett With titanium temples, they're titanium.
Andrew I dig them. I don't have to wear glasses. Suck it, loser.
Everett Yeah, being four eyes is a hindrance to not wearing glasses. Makes you look smarter and cooler though. You know, I don't mind it at all. People said, Oh, have you thought about LASIK? I'll tell you the one reason that I consider LASIK pretty seriously is sunglasses. Do you have prescription sunglasses? I do. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I can't see without them. So, uh, it's either contacts, uh, which just, I've tried it a number of times and I can't, I just can't do it. I can't get into it. So I'll wear them for a couple of days, but it's such a, um, an irritant to my eyes, you know? So anyway, Uh, yeah, new glasses.
Andrew And you don't wear a, uh, lanyard on your sunglasses when we fish. That's bold. Yeah, I do. Do you? Yeah, I wear croquis.
Everett I'm trying to imagine it and I don't remember it. I've got like four or five of them. Okay. Well, nevermind.
Andrew Just say bold move, Cotton.
Everett On the boat, I wear them. Uh, where else do I wear croquis? You know, if I'm waiting for sure. Um, yeah, I mean, pretty much any sort of outdoor activity where they might fall off, I do. Smart. Yeah. I've always thought about getting Rec Specs for when I play basketball, like some big ones, some big like Horace Grant Rec Specs.
Andrew That always makes me think of that movie, or not that movie, that book, Tangerine. I don't think I've read it. It was a book I read probably in elementary school. It was like a YA novel. And whenever I think of Rec Specs, I always think of like one of the opening things he's describing himself. It's a first person novel from what I remember. And he, he talks about hating having to wear these rec specs because they look as though they could crash land on Mars and be unharmed. And that's, that's every time I hear the term rec specs that it's immediately what, what comes to mind. Aren't our brains funny? Right. And then I think of this kid that I played soccer with as a, as a kid, I played club soccer with him for probably eight years. And he was this really goofy, wiry, like reminds me of the dude who does the, uh, does the sound effects by voice. Just, just really goofy. Uh, and I played soccer with him for years and he was like, he was like playing against the octopus. Like you could just, you could never tell which direction he was going. Like an arm would be moving one way, one leg moving the other, the other leg moving the other. And then somehow one, one arm like behind him, he was just this, an amoeba. Uh, great to have on your team. Terrible to play against.
Everett And he wore Rex specs.
Andrew Oh yeah. Also Rex specs. Yeah.
Everett All right. That's all. We brought it together. Yeah. And anything new with you besides your, uh, well, Oh, you had a fun day at work.
Andrew I did a fun day at work. Uh, got to, uh, do some emergency vehicle operations. Um, which is basically fancy for saying driving department vehicles. Like they don't belong to the taxpayer. It's awesome. Yeah. Uh, I've never worked or done anything in an environment where you could kind of, um, not be reckless, but A little bit, huh? A little bit. Take your abilities to the very edge in a consequence-free environment. So, yeah, I got to do that today. I could do that all week. How do you complain about that?
Everett Are you going to learn pit maneuvers and that sort of thing, too? Oh, yeah.
Andrew Gosh. Oh, yeah. That's exciting. Our instructor told us that if anyone can get through their first pit maneuver without smiling, that they have no soul. And he commented on me yesterday. He looked at me, I'm a ginger, for those of you who don't know. I'm not full ginger freckles, but like a Daywalker variety. And he looked directly at me and he said, for those of you who might sunburn or whose mortal enemy is the sun, you should bring sunblock. I was like, hey man, you're looking only at me. He goes, and I'm not making eye contact for a reason. So I did sunburn a little bit today in spite of sunblock.
Everett But that's my life. Yeah, that is your life. Although I will say we got through Mexico, you didn't sunburn.
Andrew Because one other ginger and three people total were looking out for my well-being.
Everett Like squirting sunblock in your hand every 20 minutes.
Andrew Yeah, because you all care about me and were reasonably concerned about how much of a bitch I am when I get sunburned.
Everett Yeah, no, it was more the latter than the former.
Andrew Yeah, so it was a team effort. It took four people to sunblock me and it worked.
Everett It did work. Yeah, it did work. We were shirtless in the pool the whole fucking time.
Andrew Yeah, and I didn't sunburn. I got a weird tan line at the water line, but that'll happen.
Everett That'll happen. That'll happen. So we're talking today, we're talking about watches. Yeah, shocker. Microbrand watches.
Andrew And the tagline that you sent me, which is the route I took, is The state of microbrands.
Everett The state of microbrands. Yeah. I mean, I guess that that may be a little bit more inclusive than we're actually intending to be. But for what it's worth, I think that that's where our heads are as we started the conversation.
Andrew And at the conclusion of this, this might unintentionally become a multi-part evolving progress report. Uh much like the state of the state the state of the city the state of the union any of those state ofs It could become a recurring theme Here at the 40 and 20 Because it is something that's in flux and I will say right out of the gate I think the state of micro brands is in the midst of crisis. Oh, really? I do gosh I do so this may be a controversial topic.
Everett Yeah, I mean that's scary So please, I'm feeling a little anxiety already, right?
Andrew Right. Fear mongering. Buy them all y'all. Cause it is in crisis. Well, and I think it's in crisis. So with that, before, before. Please listen with the intent of chiming in, let us know your thoughts, get engaged with this, because this is something that nor Everett or I could ever be an expert on. Uh, but it's something that's worth, worth discussion. So let's make it a discussion. We talked about this a bunch of times. We're sitting here drinking beer. Join us with a beer, share your thoughts. Let's have it. So to you, Everett.
Everett I was going to ask you to kick us off. That's what I was going to say. Why don't you kick us off? Because I think you've got some, uh, I think you've got some organization to your thoughts.
Andrew I do. I have a fully formulated opinion and I'm going to start by recapping the thing that my thought that the state of the micro brand is in crisis. And I think it's an identity crisis. And I think where we have to look first for that solution. is in delineating between what I'm going to call a true micro brand and a part two of that being a coattail rider micro brand. And that's not meant to be derogatory. It's meant to be a company who's capitalizing on the micro brand explosion that is not unique to watches. We saw it in beer 10 years ago. That's when The bulk of craft breweries started popping up. That's when the real craft explosion began, about 10 years ago, maybe, maybe longer. And there's craft brands that have been around for 30 years, 40 years. But when we look at that segment of the consumer market, craft beer really blew up 10 years ago, maybe 15, but in that neighborhood. So we got, we have one, we have, we have a craft explosion there, a micro explosion there. If you look at mattresses, you've got Casper, you've got, All these mattresses in a box who are capitalizing on that same direct-to-consumer mentality. I'm going to need to know more because this... But, so that's what we're looking at. We're looking at these brands that are capitalizing on a direct-to-consumer... No, can we talk more about the mattresses? Are you not familiar with these mattresses?
Everett No! Dude! Okay, I'll Google it. We can talk next week.
Andrew That could be another thing next week. I don't have one, but I want one. They're mattresses. They get delivered to your door in a box. Most of them have like a hundred night, like it or it's free guarantee. They're usually a queen size mattress, $700 or south. They show up to your house in a box. You open it, you cut the cellophane, you drop it where it's going to go and you let it sit for like four hours and it fully erects itself back into its. into its fully formed shape. It happens to me too, but usually in the morning, always in the morning, just a very small tent.
Everett Uh, okay.
Andrew So, so I guess what we're looking at is direct to consumer marketing, which is huge at the advent of the internet. And really in the last 10 years, you see Amazon as the big, as, as one of the first direct to consumer, uh, companies who starts, uh, kind of bringing together and almost co-opping. with small retailers to get their goods direct to consumers. So that's what we're seeing as a big broad stroke explanation of what I believe is the big explanation for the explosion and growth of microbrand watches specifically. What they're doing is capitalizing on what the general consumer good market is doing currently.
Everett Thoughts? Well, yeah. Maybe we'll back it up. So I think the reason you and I even started talking about this is, um, this is going to be a fairly specific anecdote, but I watched a, um, video by Jody from, you know, his channel, just one more watch. He reviewed a watch this week by a company that we're big fans of EMG. Uh, specifically he reviewed the 42 millimeter DL 63 chronograph. I think it was a Panda dial. Um, and. Jody. So, so caveat Jody's channel, just one more watch really sort of focuses on, I mean, I mean, sort of the same watch as we do, you know, he really loves the 50 to $250, $300 watch, which I think is, is right where we're at. Right.
Andrew So, yeah.
Everett Um, and you know, we, we go higher than that with some of our watches, as does he. So already from the get go, it's probably in terms of his, the watches he reviews. And certainly in terms of the people who watch his channel already on the high end, because that's a $400 watch. Um, the DL 63, I don't remember exactly what it is. 375. So it's up there.
Andrew Maybe a 425 post pre-order with their inventory, either way between 350, 450.
Everett And, you know, reading through the comments was brutal because to Jody's credit, he gave a good, solid review. You know, he sort of says it like it is, but at some point in his video, he compares it to the 42 millimeter Seagull 1963 and says, I don't understand why this is more expensive than that watch. And I think that a lot of his watchers, listeners, viewers, whatever, took that cue and the comment section on that is brutal there is maybe 20 to 25 percent of the people who comment and say this looks great you know that seagull that esteem uh you know that seagull movement is fantastic it's beautiful uh the style and cues on this are are great this is a great value for watch 25 the other 75, you know, I'd say 60, 65% of the remaining comments, um, or, or, or, you know, most of the remaining portion of the comments were pretty critical about the price, not about the watch, about the price. And of those, I'd say half of them were critical about the price when compared to the Siegel 1963 version. Um, and so I sent that to you and said, Hey, take a look at this because this is super interesting. I also reached out to Eric and said, you know, you know, I actually felt a little bad. Cause it's sort of like, let's talk about this thing that's happening. That's kind of sucks. Um, but just to sort of say, gosh, this is crazy. This is insane to me. And so I shouldn't say it's insane because right. People have opinions and people are granted their opinions. And I think that there, obviously there's going to be some validity to the things these people are saying, but So that's sort of background context. Now, we can get into all the reasons I think those people are wrong or what they're missing or, you know, perhaps you think they're right. I'm not sure. But that's the context for what we're getting at. There's something happening. I don't think it's new. I think it's always been happening. But there's something that happens when people look at goods that's reductive. There's a lowest common denominator So, I want to finish the thought that I had.
Andrew And when I said it wasn't to be derogatory, I think what we have to do is examine how we define a micro brand. I think that's the first step in examining the state of micro brands and that determines how we move forward in this conversation. Is there a difference between say, uh, like Hallios and Jack Mason? And I think, yes, I think with, with no reservation, Yes, there is an absolute difference between Hallios and Jack Mason. What is the difference? Give us the rules. Right? Well, so I think that's, I think that's the conversation. How do we look at the difference? So I wrote down some ideas of, of, of why they're different. Is it the types of movements that they're putting in? Is it, are they grabbing an off the shelf quartz? Are they grabbing an Etta? Are they using a Miyota or what, what type of movement they're using? And then maybe it goes deeper into why are they using that movement? Is it to pay respect to a watch that they're making an homage of? Is it because it's the cheapest? Is it because it's the best function for what they want out of that watch? What kind of design decisions are they making? Are they being innovative? Are they being creative? Or are they just throwing some watches together that look cool. And it's not to degrade Jack Mason, because Jack Mason makes some really lovely watches, but they have 90 offerings, all using inexpensive movements, all ringing in at $200, $250.
Everett It's a great value proposition.
Andrew What are you getting out of it, though? Are you getting a microbrand watch, or are you getting an inexpensive fashion brand watch? And that's, I think, where the discussion is. How do we delineate between true microbrand watches, between folks who are making honest-to-goodness watches that are thoughtfully designed, that are purpose-driven, that are innovative, that have a goal in mind, and watch companies who are just capitalizing on the direct-to-consumer craze that's working? I mean, I think Aviate falls into that. I think Jack Mason falls into that. I think— What about Dan Henry? Dan Henry's a weird middle ground because Dan Henry's making homage watches and I actually wrote him down for that reason. I think he's a micro brand who's making homage watches based off of his extensive collection of watches that you can't get anymore for a reasonable price. And what he's doing is he's bringing that piece of history to the consumer for a reasonable price and maybe not being so thoughtful about the orology of it. so much as the as the the heritage of it.
Everett Yeah, no, I mean, it's an interesting distinction. When you look at the etymology of the phrase, you know, I think it speaks to something that's not influenced by or it speaks to a concept that doesn't ring in of You know, there's no philosophical element to that pure etymology, right? A microbrand is just a small brand. Right. So, theoretically, a brand like Aviate, they've got, you know, just a small handful of watches, or Jack Mason.
Andrew You know, 90 watches is a lot, but I think... They may not have 90, that was probably an exaggeration.
Everett Well, you know, whatever, but I get what you're saying, and your point's well made. You know, so relatively speaking, they are a microbrand, in the truest sense of the phrase. But you're saying maybe there's something, there's a distinction that you'd like to make that is philosophical.
Andrew And I think it's important to make, to truly get at the heart of what a micro-brand watch is. And that's where I kind of started my thinking as I prepared for this was, what is a micro-brand? And then I looked at other examples across the consumer products industry. Beer being the easiest for me because that's something that I've been heavily involved in. I mean, that's what I did for money for a long time. Never mind the fact that I'm an avid beer drinker, though it gives me heartburn, so as a function I'm also an avid Tums taker.
Everett Tom's not been affected by the direct-to-consumer craze. No, maybe, because of beer.
Andrew I think if we look at it in parallel and use other products as an example for where we think the micro industry is going, I think it's hopeful, but I think it's having its identity crisis that beer had 10 years ago when you have, we'll use a couple of our hometown breweries. We have Hob Valley and we have Ninkasi, and Ninkasi was at the Spears tip. of the hop bomb craze that was really the explosion of craft breweries in the Pacific Northwest that spread across America. Now, what Ninkasi did was flooded the local market and regional market to some extent with crazy IPAs. We're talking north of 100 IBUs, things that even hop crazed animals didn't like, but they liked them because they were innovative. They were new.
Everett They were different. That first time I had triceratops, I was like, Oh my God.
Andrew Oh my gosh. You're kicking me in like from my mouth all the way to my butthole, like just immediately. But you liked it because it was new. It was different. It was innovative. It was something you hadn't seen before. You hadn't experienced before. And, and for those reasons, and it tastes good.
Everett Yeah. I like it. I just, I'll still drink it today. Yeah.
Andrew And then you have Hop Valley. who emerged three, maybe five years later. Yeah, that's probably about right. And they made really great marketing. Their, their marketing was off the fucking hook. They have cool names. They have a, they have a beer called the double D blonde. And the, uh, the logo is a very 1940s pinup girl decal, uh, wearing a red bandana around what you wouldn't, something you wouldn't expect some double D's. Um, but. All their beer was boring. Now the route Hop Valley took, now none of their beers are bad, but 90% of their beers are boring. And the route they took was to grow the brand, solidify the brand and get bought out.
Everett You know, that's super interesting. I wrote an article about this. This has been a number of years and I wrote it for a blog that I edited for a number of years that I'm not going to mention on the channel. But I wrote this exact thing that it was at the time Hop Valley came out. And I wrote that, you know, you know, I kind of looked in the company and they were heavily invested in big beer money had invested in them early. Uh, independently big beer money had invested in this independent micro brand. So yeah, it's interesting that you say that because they were very much, they were very much a company that was, that was incubated by big beer to be independent and then to later be sold to big beer. Um, and you're right. You're right. They took, they made very safe decisions. It was very polished. They popped up out of nowhere in this sort of, uh, kind of commercial, you know, the mall zone, basically. They have this restaurant that's built, you know, from the ground up, super polished, overnight, kitty corner to an Outback Steakhouse and a, and a Best Western hotel. And all of their menu items were.
Andrew safe and good all other beers were safe and good yeah you i mean you nailed it so then they get bought out within within like four years yeah for a shitload of money oh yeah nincasi denied buyouts and and recently they were acquired by a nebulous kind of organization who owns a conglomerate of craft breweries and I think honestly it's for the infrastructure support that they can get to help grow the total business. And I think it was probably a good decision for him in the long run, but back onto watches, what we have to look at is, is what are they trying to accomplish? Are they showing up into the market and making safe known quantity, maintaining the status quo decisions, or are they being innovative, trying to grow, trying to try to do new things, trying to reach consumers where they're at with a quality product that they truly believe in. And I think if you look at, if you look at micro brand watches, you can pretty quickly identify the companies that are doing something for the passion of it against doing something for the money of it. And the price of the watch is not an indicator. Okay. So I think, no, I think it could be an indicator. I think it could be. It could be. But I think inversely to the way that you would think, I think a company who's selling You know, one of these micro brands who's selling a five, seven, $800 watch. What, look at all the money that went into that. And when you also have to think about micro brands is when, and going onto this topic that you're talking about with, oh, this would be a perfect watch for a hundred dollars less. What, what I think consumers don't consider when they're looking at micro brands is you're not looking at, at, um, wholesale prices.
Everett Just buy the fucking Seagull. Get off of YouTube and buy the fucking Seagull.
Andrew But you're not looking at a company who can buy 50,000 pieces and get them at like 86 cents a piece. You're looking at a company who's buying 200 pieces or they're crowdsourcing through pre-orders or Kickstarter to be able to afford the 500 piece minimum and you ran into it with the Emperor Diver. Y'all couldn't afford to make the watch because you didn't have enough people willing to buy it. You couldn't afford the bottom line because you couldn't get to that wholesale level. And we got bailed out. By a company who was looking to do a similar thing, not exactly the same, but similar, provide a direct-to-consumer product that's crowdsourced through the funding. Tesla did it. Tesla is one of, I think, the first big companies to be able to crowdsource a project and do it effectively through pre-orders. But I think we see it a lot in watches because there are so many micro-brands who are coming out of the woodwork who want to create a unique piece that's quality. But who's going to put up the liquid cash of conservatively $20,000 to put a product to market?
Everett You know, Chris Vail of nthwatches, which I now pronounce right, talks about this quite a bit on his watchuseek thread. I guess it's not his thread, but the watchuseek thread dedicated to nthwatches. He talks about what it takes to make a watch. And, you know, I don't know that I agree with Chris Vale's business plan all the time. Although I do think it's changed in recent years. There have been times where he's prioritized, you know, the ability to sell everything. You know, I think that it might make sense for him to run an inventory. But maybe not. What do I know? I'm just a guy who doesn't do watchmaking. But but with that said he is very explicit about Making decisions making decisions for the purposes of selling watches, you know, and he talks about every decision I make Contributes to the price for better or worse, you know, so everybody wants Sapphire. Okay. Well, that's that's a cost increase and You know One of the things that happened to him a couple years ago is people were complaining about the bracelets in the class So he reengineered the bracelet and he which is a consonant of itself that's right and he sourced uh new clasps and and worked really hard he posted some videos and uh took time to to cloud to source clasps that were going to meet his customers expectations now nth watches aren't cheap they're you know 650 700 for the subs um and these are sort of unabashed sub homages although they run the gamut of style you know from um Seamaster inspired to Tudor inspired. So you get a lot of variety there, but it's a 40 millimeter sub case is what it is. But he talks about his design decisions and some of the decisions he makes because he knows that there's a service benefit. He's long been a critic of ceramic bezels. Ceramic bezels were Cinderella a year and a half, two years ago. And he said, no, I'm not going to do that because they break and they're not durable. And I want to give my customers a durable product. I'm going to do PVD brushed steel. And he does. You know, steel is stronger than aluminum. It's not going to scratch as easily. It's steel. Yeah, it's steel. So, you know, he makes these conscious decisions, but he's also pretty explicit about, I can't do all of the things you want. Because then my price goes up. And if you want to custom make a watch, make your own fucking watch. Exactly. Well, and he probably would, would even say that in, in, in as many words. So, you know, but it's one of these things that we, as we are shopping for watches, don't necessarily think about it. And I'm not criticizing people that, that want to have certain things in a watch and I've been guilty of it. Right. Well, for 350 bucks, it sure be nice to have Sapphire or, or, or I'm the worst offender of water resistance. Right. That's my guilty pleasure is water resistance, right? I look at a 50 meter watch and I don't necessarily feel satisfied, especially in a sport watch. A sport watch, I want to have a hundred or better yet, give me 200 meters of water resistance. There's a price point though that that can be expected. I think that that's right, but you know, which is not to say that a dress watch needs that or a kicker on watch or you, you know, you've even said to me on there, I think, how often, Are you going to wear that in a swimming pool, let alone go diving with it? And the answer is never, right? Or very rarely. So, um, we have these unreasonable expectations and those are, those are boosted by companies like Siegel or, or probably Seiko and Orient, you know, these companies that have the ability to, with, with an expensive labor, put out a product that is going to meet those objective
Andrew standards um and and and done at a much lower overhead rate the overhead of those companies is much less absolutely and i think seagull is a terrible example and the reason you can get a seagull watch for 150 200 bucks is because it's an enormous brand and six-year-olds are super cheap dude yeah they're they're crazy but it's also it's such a big brand sure it's not a huge international brand and it's it seems a little bit novel to us because it's a chinese brand But the fact is, they're huge.
Everett Huge. I mean, Siegel might be the biggest watch company in the world.
Andrew And just because it's not a Seiko or a Citizen or one of these other big name international brands that you think of doesn't mean that they're not cutting prices through wholesale cost, reasonably assumed child labor. Like, that's just the reality of it. Yeah. And if you want to, like, I have no moral issue with buying a $150 watch that's made on the backs of exploited labor. That's maybe something I should examine in myself. But I don't. I don't have an issue with it. But I'm not going to call it a microbrand. And I'm not going to put a higher premium on it.
Everett Well, Siegel is definitely not a microbrand. Let's get that out of the way.
Andrew Right. But I think it carries with it a little bit of a microbrand feel because it's unfamiliar. And I think that's also one thing that we have to separate is that a microbrand isn't necessarily something you're unfamiliar with. You can't call just because you don't know it a microbrand. I don't know if even Shinola would fall into a microbrand category in my mind anymore.
Everett Yeah, well, that's interesting because there's some of these bleeding edge watches. Shinola is one of the brands that comes up. Certainly, Bremont or Christopher Ward are companies that spring to mind that that sort of enter into the fringes of the microbrand conversation, but that almost certainly aren't microbrands. You know, I think Christopher Ward was at some point, Braymont's been around for forever, but you know, these companies maybe were microbrands at some point, but they're certainly not now. And Shinola is a weird one, right? Because they're a giant company that just so happens to make watches too. So yeah, that's an interesting point. You know, a microbrand, I think, really has to be this independent grassroots thing. And when when Manta came out a few years ago, there was discussions about whether or not Manta was a micro brand. And, you know, Montez when they came out were like Tudor price when the Ocean King came out. I think that that was like a thirty seven hundred dollar watch. They they came out with Eterna movements. And I think that what they did is they tried to use third-party distributors, standard, traditional distribution plans, which requires a markup, right? And so their MSRP was $3,700, and their margins were probably similar. And I think they figured out really soon what probably underlies your theory here today is that that distribution system is closed to a company like Monta, Or, you know, perhaps NTH or NTH or, or, you know, notice or EMG, that method of distribution is limited. And, you know, I think Chris Vail at NTH has, has started to pick that up. You know, he's, he's got a third party distribution channel that that's really active right now. Um, but you, you know, so what did Monta do? Well, they basically cut the price of their watch in half. They put an Etta movement into it instead of an Eterna movement. And all of a sudden, you know, they're the darlings of Instagram, right? And I will say, you and I have both handled a Triumph. The Right Wrist was super nice to send us his Triumph for a while to play with. And I mean, I've never handled a watch for a sustained period of time that was finished like that, you know? So for a Triumph, I think you're in the... $1,300 to $1,500 range, which is a bucket load of money for me, for you, certainly. Um, you know, some people can spend that and, and be, and be pretty comfortable with that purchase. That's a, that is a major purchase for me, you, and I would say probably 90, 90% of our listeners, if not more. So, so it's, it's more expensive than a lot of these watches we're looking at. I do think it's better. I'm not sure. objectively that it's better. And I don't think that my enjoyment of it would be any more than, say, a Hallios, you know, at half the price.
Andrew Or a Raven, or a Dan Henry. Or a Laurier, right? Or a Farrer, or any of these small brands.
Everett A Farrer is the same damn price.
Andrew No, Farrers are solid eight.
Everett OK, maybe.
Andrew Yeah, I don't know. I haven't priced them. I could be wrong. I haven't priced them in a while.
Everett I just know every time I look at Farrer, I think, God, that's cool. Yep, I'm not going to buy it. Because it's too much money.
Andrew Well, so it could still be in the $800 range. I could be on that. Yeah. Yeah But anyway, yeah continue.
Everett Well, that's it I mean, I guess my point was there's something about a micro brand that has well So back up right this whole Chris Vail You know people they call wall of texts, you know Chris Vail wall of text, right? Cuz when he writes he writes and he just you can just see him Jamming on his keyboard In like a rage. Yeah, you know, I I think he's just verbose but but yeah, there is that certainness It's probably not a rage. There may be I mean you do feel some of that but but it's this obtuseness that Is is so prevalent and and I think that we have to as consumers decide what do we want? And maybe we don't all want the same thing, and maybe that's how people are able to sell watches. But, you know, when I see people saying, I'm looking at this EMG DL63 with totally new design elements that's made by these three guys, you know, and whatever, they're buying cases, they're buying movements, they're not reinventing the wheel. The dials are different. Custom dials. I mean, but at the end of the day, they're putting unique touches on it. They're putting beautiful case backs. They're putting, you know, they're signing the crowns. They're doing things that give value. And so we as consumers have to decide, do we want that or do we just want the fucking seagull? And it's going to be different. The answer to that question is going to be different for everybody. And some days I want the seagull. You know what I mean? Yeah. Some days that's what I want. So buy both. Well, yeah, right. That's the answer. But there's something to be said for the value in someone doing it, someone doing something. And these companies do drastically different things. Yeah. You know, you've got a guy like Cameron Weiss in New York who's physically machining screws and, um, you know, balance Hickok parts. And I'm just making words up now. Uh, but you know, he's, they're machining that shit in house. They are making. an entire watch minus a few parts that they're sourcing from Switzerland or whatever, you know, these hard to make parts, um, and making the whole fucking watch in New York, you know, and you're going to pay a thousand to 200. You know, I think the, the Weissfield standard is, is in the little thousands and, and he sells watches that are closer to two. So, but there's a value to it. There is value to buying from someone who's willing to do something otherwise we all get the Casio. If we're not willing to pay someone for spending time and lending attention to the craft, we're all going to get the Casio. And that's okay. But that's called communism.
Andrew Which I'm not a fan of. I wrote in my notes, I'm quoting, there's not air quotes on my paper, there's real quotes, small feel equals more personal experience. And that's exactly what you just described. We just spent the last 35 minutes talking about is like the, the, the, the watch brand market side of it. And I just want to touch really quickly on the consumer side of it. And we, as consumers expect an 80% discount from a small brand. Because they're not paying the overhead of hundreds of employees. And the bottom line is their overheads in different places. And because they're a small brand, they don't have the liquid assets. They don't have, they don't have just at the assets period. to be able to absorb cost right up front. So we're going to pay a premium for these almost custom pieces when they're coming from small brands. And the short of the long of it is... The long of the short of it? You do you, boo. The short of the long. I'm going to say the short of the long because this is a long statement that I'm going to sum up. Just because you can't afford a watch doesn't mean it's too expensive. Yeah. Isn't too expensive. I just can't afford it And I think that's what we're seeing and I and I one thing that I do want to say that I wrote in my notes Is that the dive watch is the hot bomb? Like the dive watch is of the watch world the way the hot bomb was of the beer world and I can't wait to see What's next because I love dive watches. There's too fucking many of them.
Everett Yeah, give me more diversity You know, I think that the that to stay on metaphor. I I think that the sour beer of the watch world is going to be dress sport watches. I'm into it. You know, high water resistance, high durability, dress sport watches. That's right. 38 to 40 millimeter clean bezel. I think that that is going to be the sour beer of this metaphor. So get on me. Yeah. That's how I feel too. I mean, the Laurier Falcon came out and is it the Falcon or is it the the Falcon? That's the That's their clean bezel. Yeah. You know, that came out and I was like, this is it, man. I can tell it's happening. You know, and Jason Lim over at Hallios is now releasing a 38 millimeter sport watch. I mean, you can just see the, the, the, the changes is happening right now. You know, someone said that this is going to be the year of the 12 hour bezel. Uh, and maybe last year.
Andrew Stainless bezel. What's that? I hope it's the year of the stainless bezel.
Everett Yeah, you know, I think that's what's happening. I think we're going to see it and it may be closer to the end of the year where we see it proliferate. But I do think that's what I think that's where we're going. So do you want to wrap up and just talk about some micrograms that you like why you like them where we're at?
Andrew Yeah, with that. And you know what, and as I as I said, I anticipated that this might be a multi part series that we bring. And I think given Just touching on about a third of what I wanted to talk about tonight. This is going to be one of those multi parts. Get involved in the conversation. Let us know and we will join it. Join the conversation.
Everett If you guys give us some feedback, we'll revisit this. I mean, maybe as soon as next week and expand on the conversation with your feedback. We'd love to hear it.
Andrew Yeah. I mean, we're not experts. We're just opinionated assholes. Far from it. Anyway. some some micros that that i dig and and why i dig them and i i think we can skip emg because we both we both have have talked not ad nauseum because i don't know if we can talk highly enough of emg they're great folks they're making killer watches and and we dig them so we dig them yeah um halios i i don't know if we need to talk about it uh but i dig their watches one that we haven't talked about on here is farer watches and they're making they're making really beautiful really beautiful, really classic, uh, kind of vintage inspired feel watches. Uh, and they're on the, they're on the more expensive end. They, they fall into a reach watch category for me. Um, but I absolutely dig what they're, what they're doing. They've got a GMT that every time I see it, I start plotting ways to, to quickly accumulate that amount of money that my wife won't know about. that I can spend on that watch and I can say, Oh yeah, they, so the, the Lander is, uh, is it 1425 right now? And if I could come up with 1400 money without my wife knowing about it, the 25 wouldn't matter. Um, but if I could come up with 1400 money and my wife not knowing about it, And I can do some kind of discrete cash exchange rather than an electronic exchange that she could certainly hunt down and get one of these on my wrist. I would, um, basically anything short of a felony, I think I'd be okay with.
Everett Yeah. I mean, it's a super cool company. I put it in that same range as, as Manta. Um, you, you know, they're fantastic. The details on these are great and they just, they just look wonderful. So I'm with you there.
Andrew Next one on the list, for me, is Nizumi. And they're a design studio, so they have their fingers in quite a bit of things. But they're just coming out with such beautiful watches. And I almost, without permission, pulled the trigger. They had some of their watches on Huckberry for probably, I don't know, 20% off, 30% off neighborhood. I don't know if you're familiar with Huckberry.
Everett Which brings them to like, yeah, oh yeah, like 350 ish. Yeah.
Andrew Yeah. So they were about 350, maybe 280. I don't, they were in the realm of reasonable and in the realm of forgiveness possible. Um, right. And I almost pulled the trigger on, on one the other day and they're, they're coming out with such watches that really, really resonate with me because they're really classic in their feel, but they're still really unique. They're not just a, just a carbon copy of something that we've seen 100 times. There's so much personality and so much of their DNA infused into this watch that is almost familiar because of the style of watch that they're going with. And that's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for that personal touch, like a watch that I look at and speaks to me. And that's not what I'm getting out of these watches that I'm going to call coattail riders in a non-derogatory sense. And I know that everything about what I just said sounds derogatory, but none of the Jack Mason watches, none of the ABA watches, when I look at them, really, like, there's no connection there.
Everett But those are watches, I mean, to sort of defend you, those are watches that you've brought into our conversation a number of times from all those brands. You like those watches and those brands.
Andrew But they don't, they don't, they don't grab a piece of my heart and say, you We're already one. Like, let's Avatar connect tails and join forces.
Everett They're missing some of the soul. Yeah.
Andrew Yeah.
Everett Yeah.
Andrew Yeah.
Everett What have you got? Well, you know, there's a number of brands that I could talk about today. I've already talked about Enthwatches. I think that's such a fucking cool company. You know, Crisvale, I think probably does as much for the public side of the microbrand community as any owner out there. And just in his engagement, just as in his engagement, his desire to be transparent. You know, he's he's on he's on watch you seek and he's on his Facebook group and he's talking to people and he's he's explaining the decisions he's making. Not that he has any obligation to because people love his watches. You know, he could probably spend a lot less time and still do very well for himself. And I don't know anything about whether or not he's financially successful. I assume he is, you know. But I love his brand probably a little bit more than I love his watches. And that's not meant to be disrespectful, right? I love those. And subs, I've never loved one enough to pull the trigger on them, though. And it's a watch I've been looking at for a very long time. When he came out with the Devil Ray a few years ago, I thought, Maybe this one. And then they came out and I thought, you know, that I'm sure that's not for me. It's just going to be too much watch. Um, so that is not, I feel a little bad that I'm ending that on a negative note. They're not for me. Uh, I think, and I think that it's very likely that someday he's going to come out and watch with a watch. And I'm like, that's, that's for me. Um, and if he does, I'll buy it because I think he's super cool. I love that brand. Uh, brew watches, brew watches, this tiny company, this retro graph is fantastic and it's, it's affordable. I think Lower price than some of the other things out there and they're doing a very high-end product for what they're charging Laurier Also, just doing very high-end products for for what you're getting that Falcon is 400 bucks 400 bucks not it's 399 money.
Andrew Okay. Well, there you go.
Everett There you go So a watch and a McChicken for 400 bucks, you know and 400 bucks is a bucket load So let's not let's not fool ourselves but to get a watch that's designed from the ground up by some folks that, you know, are just like us, you know, these guys are just like us. And I don't mean that to say they're smarter than we are. They probably are. Yeah, they probably are. And they've got more motivation. So, um, but you know, these are just people that are like, we want to do something cool. And we want, and you know, you had talked earlier about, um, passion, right? They got the passion. You can tell that watch is the creature of passion in the same way that my little children are. Uh, maybe a little different, but not much. Uh, you know, you can just tell that they're doing a thing. Um, so EMG can't say enough about them and we'll continue to, we'll continue to pimp EMG because fucking love those guys. Uh, probably the most underrated watch company. I know they struggle with sales too. Um, so for whatever reason, they've, they've struggled to, to resonate with the bigger picture.
Andrew Um, and, and, you know, they've got to the benefit of the consumer because it means that they, they, they've got to keep the prices extremely competitive. Yeah.
Everett And, you know, talking to Eric today, um, he, he said, you know, people think that I'm making a big paycheck and I'm just not, I've never taken any money out of this company. And I don't know if he meant that literally or figuratively, but, um, you know, These guys are not making bucket loads of money. They're not making money in hands or fists. They're probably not even making money to survive if they didn't have jobs. You know, so, um, I guess, I guess that would be it. You know, there's, I'm sure I'm missing companies that I love. Um, you know, Seals Watches is another one that I see those watches and I'm like, sign me up. And I just never have.
Andrew Uh, I also wrote down HKED, Raven, and Scurfa.
Everett Yeah. Oh yeah. Scurfa. Gosh, how did we miss that one? Such, such a great, such a great concept. And he's sticking to his guns. You know, I'm probably not going to buy one because it's a quartz watch, but that's what he wants to make. He wants to make a quartz watch. And so that's what he's doing. So, uh, and, and try to find someone online saying something bad, an owner of a, of a Scarpa, try to say, saying something bad. I don't think you'll find it. So are we done?
Andrew For today, for this installment of the state of micros, which who knew When he texted it to me, I mean, I didn't until I really like got into it and started to feel, uh, you know, the passion bubbling and you guys can't see, but I'm like, he's bubbling. I am. I'm like, I'm far more expressive with my hands this week than, than usual weeks. Like I've, I've hit the table a couple of times. Uh, I elbowed the desk that's next to me. That's the whole thing. But I think we're, I think we're done with this installment and onto some of the other things. Other things.
Everett Other things we like. Our wife's favorite. Other things we like. Andrew, what do you got?
Andrew I went back to my roots recently of YouTube. And I don't know what prompted it. I don't know. I was just kind of like doing my normal YouTube pit. And I found my way back to Epic Mealtime. Oh, you dirty. And I forgot about it. Like it just it just sort of like. Is it still a going operation? No, it's not, but they still do have 7.1 million followers, uh, and several hundred videos. And, and so for those of you not familiar with Epic Mealtime, shame on you. Shame on, shame. Um, but I'll explain them. It's this crew of dudes who make, wait for it, epic meals out of some of the most horrifying things you can imagine. But that's the whole premise is to do something wildly outrageous. may be terrible, but why not try it? What we're dealing with here is some experimental chefs, and they've done such things as the fast food lasagna, where they went to a bunch of fast food joints and then made lasagna from the ingredients. They've done chili for loco, wherein the bulk of the ingredient was canned chili, I think it was canned chili, and a whole shitload of for loco, And in one of their episodes, they made a bacon cup. They weaved together bacon, baked it, and then filled that cup with Four Loko, drank the Four Loko, and ate the cup. How do you beat that? And then an all-bacon hamburger, where again, they weaved together bacon to make the bun, and then made a bacon patty. And they're all like sub-10 minute, you know, some of them in the neighborhood of two minute videos of them making these horrendous things. Things that you've thought, like, I could do that. And then they do it for you. So you don't have to go spend 90 bucks on fruit roll ups to make it like make a burrito out of fruit roll ups. Classic YouTube. Classic YouTube. It's funny. It's engaging. They're short. And again, the danger with short YouTube videos, you know, when they're the two to five minute, you're like, yeah, I'll play the next one. Yeah, I'll play the next one. And two hours later, you were like, oh, I guess I'm gonna go home from work now. Anyway, so that's a YouTube page that I've been frequenting. again as of late.
Everett Epic Meal Time, folks. Epic Meal Time. So I recently finished a sci-fi trilogy. And that's what we're going to talk about today. No, it's a it's a it's a series of books. It's a trilogy of books. I bought them all together. That's the nice thing. If you wait till all of the books are out, you can buy them in a package. So I think it was like 30 bucks for all of them for Kindle. But the trilogy is called The Themis Files. This is a series by Sylvain Nouvel. I'm going to say Sylvain, S-Y-L-V-A-I-N, Nouvel, N-E-U-V-E-L. And it's about an alien race having deposited giant robots on the earth in the past. So it's Transformers. It is. It is Transformers. Yes. It was wonderful. And the reason I, you know, I read a lot of books. The reason I am bringing this up here today is because It's so much different than anything else I've ever read before the books are not told in a standard narrative fashion rather the stories are told by way of interviews and Journal entries. Oh interesting of the you know, five or six main characters. So there's one character that we See repeatedly in the first several. Well, I'll be careful with spoilers. Yeah, I'll be careful So there's one character that we are very well acquainted with by way of his dialogue, but we know nothing about. There are a number of characters with these really rich backstories. And it's really engaging. I will say the story is perhaps not the most complex or ornate story. And I think you can attribute some of that to the medium, right? interview slash journal entry storytelling has its limitations right so it's almost like an anthology yeah that that's right and so there there are some limitations to that so i think that the story struggles a little bit but with that said the it's so well done that you're totally engaged all the way through i mean i think i read these three books and it's not a tiny trilogy you know i don't know page numbers anymore because i kindle and so you know percentages yeah that's right i only know location yeah that's right Uh, so I don't know how long this is, but I don't think it was terribly long to read all three of them. I mean, I got through them in a few weeks. Um, but the whole time I was engaged right up to the very end, you know, uh, and it's just really well done. Really wonderful book. One's called Sleeping Giants. So if you, if you Google Themis files, T H E M I S Themis files, or if you Google Sleeping Giants, you'll be able to find it. And it was just really, really wonderful. Great story. Uh, totally different than anything else you're going to read this year. Uh, and so I'd say check it out.
Andrew I'll caveat with a couple other, um, book or movie recommendations, uh, for, uh, adjectives, Netflix movie, uh, about Ted Bundy with Zac Efron as Ted Bundy is a worthwhile watch y'all. Uh, it's, it's a little bit of like a, a, a bio drama. Uh, check it out. It dropped on Netflix a couple of days ago. Worthwhile. And I'm reading Devil in the White City right now. Uh, for those of you who aren't familiar with it, it's the story of the, it's a couple of parallel stories and I'm like halfway through it. So I don't know, I don't know where they join, but I assume that they join because otherwise why tell them the same book, um, of two things occurring, uh, leading up to the, uh, 1890s world's fair in Chicago. Uh, one of them being the story from the architects who were responsible for designing the buildings and the other. the story of H.H. Holmes, who I forget his real name, who was basically a serial killer rapist in Chicago in the 1890s, who built a building on a square city block that was a murder castle. And that's where I'll leave it at that. But feel free to go ahead and Google the murder castle. And it is among the most fascinating serial killer stories that I've ever heard.
Everett Fantastic. Yeah. Fantastic. All right. Uh does that does that do it for this week? Does it for this week. Well thank you for joining us for this episode of 40 in 20. Don't forget to tune back in next Thursday for another hour of watches, food, drinks, life, and other things we like. Buh-bye. Our music today is Bummin' on Tremolo by Kevin MacLeod of incompetech.com, licensed under creative comments by attribution 3.01.