Episode 253 - Too Much of a Good Thing: The A11 Conundrum

Published on Wed, 30 Aug 2023 22:24:30 -0700

Synopsis

Andrew and Everett discuss the history and specifications of the A11 military watch from WWII and subsequent field watch designs inspired by the A11. They question how many modern brands should create their own interpretations of the classic field watch design, and whether it has become too oversaturated. They debate the importance of making original and interesting contributions versus simply rehashing old designs for profit.

Transcript

Speaker
Everett Hello, fellow watch lovers, nerds, enthusiasts, or however you identify. You're listening to 40 in 20, the Watch Clear podcast with your hosts, Andrew and my good friend Everett. Here, we talk about watches, food, drinks, life, and other things we like. Everett, how are you? And secondly, how was my intro? Sometimes you comment on my speed. Was that, was that acceptable to you? I'm fine. Okay. Uh, yeah, I'm fine. with my speed or you're just like fine in general? Cause I did ask you two questions. It was a compound question trying to trick you here. That's an objection. Uh, no, I'm doing great. There is, um, about a month's worth of baseball left. So shit's getting real. Last time I checked the American league West had almost exactly a three way tie at the top, which is crazy. Okay. So hear me out. You know, You're always playing, you know, oftentimes the schedules are constructed to have multiple games against division opponents at the end of the season. We've got to create some separation in each division. That's right. You've got like four or five teams in the American league right now that are all super close to each other. And in the American league West, you have three teams that are literally neck and neck. Uh, and so with, you know, a month to go 30 ish games to go in the season. You've got these teams that are going to have to either break apart or not. Well, in the Mariners last 10 games, they play seven against the Texas Rangers and three against the Houston Astros who just so happened to be, they might've just won a world series. The other two teams that they're competing with at the AL West. Uh, fortunately all those teams are in pretty good Place standing, you know, in pretty good position in the wild card race, but you've also got Toronto that's in there. Toronto, Boston has not disappeared. Uh, you know, we've just got this really crazy race that I don't think, I don't think the American league West is going to be decided until like per perhaps the last game of the season. It's crazy. It's going to be crazy. This is going to be one of the most fun end of seasons. I can remember someone's going to get left out. I'm guessing Toronto. I'm hoping Toronto, but you know, I don't care if Texas doesn't make the playoffs. I don't give a shit. I don't care about the Rangers. Sorry, the Rangers didn't make the playoffs. Sorry. If you're a Rangers fan, I don't care. If Houston didn't make the playoffs, I'd be delighted. I'd be delighted. I'm sorry. If you're a Houston fan, nobody else likes you, especially in the American league, go back to the nationally. We don't need you. True. We, We don't need you. So anyway. You think people are going to say that to the Ducks when we win the Big Ten this year or next year? Oh, boy. Maybe. Go back to the Pac-4. We don't need you. Yeah. You know, it's interesting. The Ducks going to the Big Ten. There are a lot of really good teams in the Big Ten. And I think the Ducks competition has just stiffened. I think it's an interesting change. You know, you've got Michigan, you've got Ohio State. I mean, Michigan's probably, this year, Michigan's one of the best teams in the country. Ohio State's always good. You know, Washington, USC. I think when you look at how competitive the Pac-12 was against how competitive the Big Ten was, I don't know that we're gaining much besides publicized games, right? When you look at Stanford has their like three good seasons a decade, and when they do, they fucking do. Washington and Washington State are competitive teams. Cal, USC are always competitive teams. I mean, three quarters of the Pac-12 were really competitive teams, which is why they've all left. Cal hasn't been competitive. They haven't been competitive in a while. One good season in the last two decades. UCLA was on and off. Like there were really competitive teams and all eight of them have left. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. In any event, baseball, I'm very excited. This is the doing math time of the season. Like, well, if this happens, then this, uh, it's fun. It's exciting. It's fun to look at those last 10 games and think, A, that's 20 games away. So what's going to happen between now and then? And B, is there any way to feel comfortable going into those 10 games? And I think the answer is no. No, not when you play that many games and you stay that competitive throughout the season. Go Mariners. In any event, go Mariners. I have a weird baseball relationship in that I grew up in Portland and was by default a Mariners fan. And that was like the team that I watched and cared about. And then like started to kind of give a shit about baseball while living in Tejas and followed the Rangers. And now I have a complicated environment. Yeah. Fuck the Rangers. Not nearly as complicated as our friend, Tommy, whose wife is a Michigan fan and they now exist in the same conference. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, but yeah, Andrew, how are you? I am good. I had a really pretty productive weekend. We went camping last week, right? We already talked about that. So I guess I didn't do much this weekend. I just kind of like recouped and like got shit done around the house. I work today, so I'm just kind of, kind of chilling. Yeah, I'm good.
Andrew Like a villain.
Everett Exactly. That's what I'm known for. My villainous chillin. That's gonna be my rap name. Villainous Chiller Chillin. Uh, that needs workshopped. Yeah, I think it does. Uh, in any event, we're not talking about villain names. Or rapster names. Rather, we are talking about watches. Which is what we do. Which is what we've done something like 252 times today being 253. So Reddit is a website that you may have heard of. It's got these things called subreddits, which are like in and of themselves forums. So Reddit is like a... The forum. The forum with subforum. There is a subreddit for everything. There's a subreddit for, I'm sure, crocheting. I'm sure there's a bunch. There's a subreddit, there's subreddits for like individual YouTube channels and video games. Anyway, there's a subreddit for the city of Eugene. It's called R Eugene. R Eugene. That's right. And today someone posted on the Eugene subreddit something to the effect of, um, are there any famous, are there any famous, uh, podcasters or YouTubers from Eugene. And the answer is no. Dan Carlin is from Eugene. The Peter, I can't remember Peter's last name, but the founder of On the Rocks, who's got a very popular YouTube, is on Eugene. There's a few others. We have a few others that are here. Cam Haines is from Eugene. He's from Springfield. There are a number of, you know, mid-level influencer types that are from Eugene. But Cam Haines is actually pretty notable. He's one of, he was one of Under Armour's only two sport athletes. There were like three. Yeah. He's very, he's notable. Well, Dan Carlin is notable too, right? So we've got a handful. In any event, someone, someone who I don't know put on there the 40 and 20 podcast, Andrew and Everett. As if that was everything you need to know. Um, And I saw it because I frequent the R Eugene and I commented, I think I said, yo, yo. Uh, but yeah, I was like, that's cool, man. Like someone that's from Eugene is like, this is a, this is a big deal. And I listened to it. And, and then with you, it wasn't me. It's someone I do not know. It's someone I like went through their post history to see if I could figure out who it was. And I was not able to. So, yeah. Hit us up, whoever you are. That's right. Not underscore WatchClicker. Don't hit the 40 and 20 page. That's right. We'll tell that story someday. 40 and 20 underscore WatchClicker. Not someone I was familiar with. In any event, in any event, thank you to whoever you are for thinking we're famous. And within about 20 minutes of that, a local business reached out to us. and asked what our rates for sponsorship on the show are. $10,000. And I gave them our standard rates, our standard rates. We've got different rates. If you're a watch person or a non-watch person, I gave them our rates and I don't know what will come of that, but I was like, wow, what a neat little turn of events. We're famous. We are famous. We're famous. We're getting unsolicited sponsorship requests. Yeah, that's right. We turned down reviews. We turned down interviews. Guys, we're there. We're at the pinnacle. Still don't charge you, though. So you're welcome. What are we talking about today, Andrew? So I had this idea and I was thinking about a lot of overlap, right? Because you look at all these new releases and a lot of the new releases, they're like, oh, it's really cool. I really like this new release from this brand. But if you kind of 30,000 foot view it and I, I got this idea because I was showing my wife a watch and I was like, Hey, I want to buy this. It costs this many money. She's like, that looks like every other watch you own. And I was like, you're, you're, you're objectively wrong here. They are all different. This is different for this reason. No, no, it's the same watch. And I, so I was kind of like thinking on that idea and I had that just had that recent experience and I was thinking about these new releases and I was thinking about military watches for whatever reason. And I kind of wondered, I was like, how much is too much of a good thing? Cause we're always in the mindset of more is better and more is more and more is more better. Right? We like the, We like a lot of watches and we like brands to be producing stuff and we like people to be doing stuff. But with respect to military watches and field watches, like how, how many brands do we really need to make the same field watch? I get there's some nuance, there's some differences, but I'm thinking like the really classic A11. How many brands do we really need making that military Watch. And that was kind of what got us started down this rabbit hole. And I pitched this idea to Everett and he's like, Oh, I like that. Like how much is too much? So we both dove into the A11. Had a little bit of a surprise and we'll get there. Was it surprising for me? Was it surprising for you? Hmm. I don't know. We'll have to. Okay. Yeah, we'll get there. So let's talk first about what the A11 is. And the A11 is... Oh, it's your iPad. It is my iPad. Did you bring your pen pineapple, pineapple pen? I did not bring my pen. Fucking kidding me? Well, I'm sorry. What do I need it for? Notes. Well, but I've already written all the notes. You're an asshole. The A11. was a, is a World War II American military spec sheet watch where the American government put out specific specifications for a watch out to contract and said, Hey, we want this. So, and I can, I can, I can, uh, fill in a little bit. Okay. 1943. spec was 94-27834-B, which replaced the prior spec, the dash A spec. And that is where we get the specs for the A11 watch. So that specific stuff, February of 1943, the A11 watch is born. And it's not a model of watch, but rather it's a list of specifications by which to make a watch, a set of criteria, if you will. So the American military puts out the spec sheet and says, hey, if you want to make some cheddar, make us a watch within these specifications. Here are the kind of general specifications had to be 15 or more jewels. So a lot of companies were not making a 15 plus jewel movement. So they made a couple of changes out of this 15th or 16th jewel. They got it taken care of. Had to be hacking and hand winding. Had to have a power reserve between 30 and 52 hours. That sounds right-ish, yes. Plus or minus 30 seconds. Now the dial. Center seconds. Yeah, plus and center seconds. The dial had to be center seconds, had to have a one to 12 hour markers, and a minute track with 10 minute demarcations. Case size had to be 32 to 36, 39 lug to lug. No, case size. Had to be 32? 30 to 33.
Andrew 30 to 33, okay.
Everett Yeah, it's actually like 29. It was in inches, right? So it was actually 29 and change, like 29.7 to 33.2, something like that. 39 lug to lug, 16 millimeter lugs, and had to have the indestructible acrylic Crystal. Yeah. Uh, clear and non-breakable is the term from the spec. Also had, it did, there was no indication on bezel style, so it could be plain or coin edge. Uh, I lost something that I didn't think I was going to lose, so I didn't even put it on my note sheet. Um, Oh, and uh, yeah, a green or OD strap. Yeah. There's a couple of other notes I'll add because I based on your inflection, I gather you're done. Um, steel obviously was at a, was at a premium during world war two. So, um, there was a handful of alloys that it could be made out of, but it had to be chrome plated. Although I do understand a few of these were made with silver. Yeah. Right. What a baller watch to get issued. It had to have a steel case back with specific engravings. Um, The effect of NSN, the national stock number, indicating that it was specced out. That's right. And for water resistance, they didn't specify a water resistance depth rating because that wasn't really a thing yet. Rather, they had a specific test that had to be performed, which was to suspend the watch in mercury equivalent to 72 inches of water or I believe that's seven feet of water equivalent to the pressure of seven feet of water. That's five feet, 76 feet.
Andrew Okay. Two inches, six feet.
Everett There you go. Cause I'm 69 inches tall. There you go. And I'm not six feet tall. Uh, and, and it had to stay there for 15 minutes or for 15 seconds, I believe. Uh, for 15 seconds, which is, uh, Oh yeah, I have six feet right here. Um, which is a very like bizarre, you know, test. Now we would just say it needs to be water resistant or dust meters or like something. So, yeah, I think that obviously there's a lot more to the specs. The only other thing I would add is that there were drawings of a case, drawings of hands and drawings of a dial. And there was some room for interpretation, as we will see with the watches that get released. But, but, but really it was that, that was it. You, you know, the case profile needs to look like this. No, uh, no brand badging on the dial either. That's right. Loom was an option. The Navy wanted to see, uh, what was it called? The Navy Bureau of Aeronautics wanted a full loomed dial, but loom was also optional. Yeah. Well, and, and the Navy, the Navy aeronautics do not have to follow the army standards. So they, they released revisions to the A11 spec, which included luminous dots at five minutes and at the hour and minute hands. So a lot of times you'll see watches that look a lot like an A11 watch, but slightly different with these five minute loom pips. And those are actually probably Navy watches. Or modern interpretations of this loomed A11 watch. That's right. So we've got the kind of general specs down. Four companies were producing A11s at this point. Elgin, Boliva, Walden, Hamilton. And I don't think, I don't think Hamilton makes any of these until significantly later. But they were making them. They did make some. They aren't in the top three, but they did exist. It happened. They were late to the party. But we've got four companies making this original, everyone make the same thing watch. Very boktaki, very kind of seagull-y. They all look the same. They're using typically one of two movements, either an Elgin or a Bulova movement. And this is it. This is the watch. This is the watch that won the war. And that seems a bit like an overstatement to me. Um, but you know, I, I will, I will accept it if, you know, if we consider that millions of these were issued to, uh, two American military service members over the course of world war two. So, um, you know, there were also the underpants that won the war, which we'll probably talk about in the future episode, um, as well as the socks. Um, yeah, so. in looking at what the A11 specs are. Andrew, I don't think Hamilton made an A11 watch. Hamilton made a fucking A11. I'm just going to throw it out there. I don't think Hamilton made an A11. But carry on. No, now I'm Googling so I can put it in your face. While you're Googling, I will say that there are a number of watches that exist today which are based very closely on an A11 watch. And most of them refer to the A11 in their title. This is not an exhaustive list. Rather, these are the ones that I could find. Yeah. So this is what surprised me. When I think of an A11, I'm like, there's 30 brands making an A11 or a military, a World War II military watch. But when we go against the spec sheet, some revelations were made. Yeah, I was able to find, I was able to find six that I was confident in. Uh, those are the Bulova A11 hack. That's a $350 watch that comes in at 38 millimeters. Look, A11 by Hamilton. Interestingly, it's got a blue dial, and it's an automatic, so not a two-spec A11, but evocative nonetheless. The MK2, I think it's called the Crucible, but... Cruxible? Yeah, I could be wrong. That's a little bit more expensive, $650, $39, black dial, beautiful watch, and automatic. Bertucci makes an A11. They call it the A11T. This is titanium. $275, 42 millimeters with an AmeriQuartz movement. MWC, a much vilified company, makes an A11 for $335, 38 millimeters auto. I believe it's got a Miyota 8, but don't quote me. Baltony, a new player to the A11 scene, $175, 39 millimeters. NA38, this is an interesting proposition because it's inexpensive, And it looks pretty good. They've got it in a gold and also a black. And perhaps most notably, Presidius. Presidius makes a $600 hand-wind mechanical A11 that comes in both 38 and 32, which is true to the original size. I think Presidius is the only company right now producing a true A11 watch. Yeah. And they appear to be terrific. There's a few different versions you can buy. I think probably their most popular version is one that's based on a fellow named Tom Rice. Presidus maybe? What is that? Presidus, not Presidius. There's only one I. Oh, Presidus. OK, well, I'm sorry, guys. I'm sorry, Presidus. So I'm sure there's a few more. That's a list of six companies. that are making these. You said, I sent you this list and you said, well, and maybe this is a good place for us to segue. This is kind of our divergence from what my original plan was. You sent me, or I sent you this list and said, these are the ones I can find. And you said, well, add the Vero S3 to that. And I think you've got a Veyr S3 to that. And I think you've got it covered. And I was like, the Veyr S3 is not an A11 watch, Andrew. And you were like, well, it's not not, but it's not, It doesn't fit the spec sheet. And I said, it's just not. The hands are wrong. It's got syringe hands, which are appropriate for a GGW113, the Vietnam era evolution, but not for an A11. The minute track is all wrong. It's different. The minute markers on the minute track are wrong. They're at five minute demarcations. Well, they're at the, they're at the fives and not the zeros. Um, you know, it's not an a 11 watch. It's really just a field watch. And so I think that it's important to note that. And I think you, I think you ultimately relented. Oh, I didn't disagree, but I also feel like it fits the idea of the a 11. And then you look at, I looked at the spec sheet and I looked at the watch and I looked at the actual A11s and I was like, no, you're definitely right. This is not an A11. This is a iteration, a growth, an evolution of the A11. Oh, I see it wasn't all the way down. So I think that perhaps brings us to maybe the first point we're going to make today, which is that with all of these watches, whether that's an A11, or a GGW-113, or, you know, whatever. There's a number of different iterations, the MIL-W3818B, which is like the ground version of the GGW-113. All of these watches were spec watches, right? They were made to a spec. So anything that's released today that's not to that spec is An interpretation. An interpretation. And for the A11, for instance, as far as I can tell, and I don't think the Precedus actually qualifies because the movement's wrong. So what's important? Is the dial the most important thing? Is the case size the most important thing? Is the movement important? What's important, and if you're going to call your watch an A11, but be titanium, 42 millimeters, and have a quartz movement... Are you? And what's better is the Bertucci A11T doesn't even have dial. It's got several different dial configurations, most of which aren't right. So does the Cruxible. And so what are we talking about here? If you're saying this is A11, And you're not, and none of the things are right. Are we okay with that? Oh, of course we are. Well, I don't know. Are we okay with it? Are there an A11? Because the, the, the Bulova A11 hack, if it comes with a true A11 dial comes in blue. Right. Right. Is that acceptable? And I don't, I don't necessarily think it's not acceptable. No, of course it's acceptable. No, of course, especially didn't say blue. The assumption was black. But what's the point, right? If if I'm willing to say, well, the various threes, not an A-11 watch. Of course, they haven't marketed it as an A-11 watch, but if I'm willing to say that's not an A-11, but a 39 millimeter blue dialed. Watch from Hamilton. an automatic watch from Hamilton is... What are we actually talking about here? We're just talking in circles here. Yeah, what... My point is, what's the distinction? I don't know. And I think the answer is that there are no A11s on the market, which shocked me. Except for maybe the Precedus, which is close. Precedus? Yeah. I'm going with Precedus. I think that's right. I think Precedus is right. Presidius, Sid, nope, it's got, not a second E sound, Presidus. We're barely literate people here. But what it comes down to is, is I was kind of shocked by how few true A11s were out there. And we, I mean, I dug pretty deep. I went to like brands and I was like, no, I know you make an A11. Cause you've got this track, but you don't have demarcations or you've got the wrong handset. Like, okay, well, no, this, this company has to do it. Well, that's a field watch that has a 12 and a 24 hour ring. And it kind of got me it. So that's, that sort of like set me further down my path of like, how much is too much of a good thing? Not just with the A11. The A11 was the first example, like one of the first examples of a spec watch. where everyone is expected to make the same thing. But you can't put your logo on it. Sorry. And we see iterations later of not the A11, but of say the, the dirty dozen where we have another spec'd watch, generally spec'd watch. where everyone's making the same thing. And it created this thing where it was okay that everyone was making the same thing. And all these companies are getting their money, making the same thing. And now here we are in a world where everyone has a field watch. Yeah. And more or less, they're all spec. The same. Not just kind of the same. But like the same 1224 hour track. Decent loom round case. Decent crown, maybe a four o'clock crown if you're feeling salty, spicy even. And I'm wondering how much is too much. We have this iterative post A11 Three up to four companies are making it. Currently six companies are making it. More people are making a iterative design on the A11 than were originally doing it. That's crazy. So a few years ago, Henry Marginal, one of the WatchClicker staff writers, wrote and published an article on WatchClicker. This article is called Leveling the Field. aesthetic remixes of the field watch or 1001 ways to get it right. And in that article, Henry talks about watches such as the Hamilton khaki field. He talks about the Timex campers, uh, and expeditions, 90% of Timex three enters. He talks about the, um, he talks about the, the, uh, prestigious, uh, a 11, uh, and, you know, he talks about this phenomenon, right? Where we've got these 20 different watches that he's got on the table in front of him. And they're all basically the same, but they're all slightly different and they're all doing slightly different things. He doesn't take the same position that you do, at least ostensibly Andrew, which is there's too much. And I'm probably with Henry. I don't think, that there is too much. I'm wondering, I'm questioning, I do think at some point you have to ask, what am I adding? As I release this watch, what am I contributing? What am I adding? With Prosidas, I think it's real clear what they're adding, right? They're making this really honest, really, unrepentant homage to this watch that's not terrifically common. I think probably more common than the A11 is the GGW-113, which is really probably the archetypal field watch, right? Yeah, it's the foundation by which every other field watch has ever stood upon. That is where... It's not where the 24-hour track is introduced, but that's where the 24 hour track cements its place in field watch lore. Uh, that is where the markers and the fonts that we know and love today are all really some, they, they all, all those things really cement themselves as part of the conversation. And today you can go buy for 450 bucks, a brand new Hamilton khaki mechanical, which is But for the size, an A11 watch, right? It looks like an A11, it wears like an A11, or not an A11, excuse me, excuse me, a GGW-113. And so, and it's not just Hamilton, right? A few years ago when Timex released their Expedition North, a lot of people say, oh, it's a knockoff Hamilton, which is such a Such a silly thing to say. Because it's not. It's a reimagination of a spec watch. That's right. That's right. But there's something to be said about that ideology. With the A11, I think it's a little different with the A11 because you've got so few companies. You know, six seems like a lot. But of those six, there's only like two. There's 75. thousand companies making a dive watch. That's right. So all that to say, if you're going to set out to make a new field watch, obviously you've got companies like Boulder that are doing things way different. But still super familiar. You've got companies like, um, Oh, what's the one, uh, the, the, The one that scored so high on our, um, not there. Oh no, no, no. Uh, Oh, why am I fairer? No, not fair. The, the, uh, one who the, the guy released a few years ago, the, the man in his watch, Matt Hranek, um, I'm just blanking and Andrew, you are zero help. You're not doing a good job describing anything. You're just like, you mean naming the owner? Uh, Anyway, you've got these companies that are doing these things in slightly different ways, but very familiar ways. And then you've got companies that are doing them in really faithful ways, right? Almost indistinguishable, such as Hamilton, from the beginnings. So when a brand owner is going to make one of these things, how How do they position this in the market, the saturated market? And how do you convince yourself that you're contributing something to the community? I think that's got to be the question. Easier to answer for a company like Boulder with their crazy case and their crazy dial colors. And working entirely in titanium. That's right. That's right. Sorry, I wasn't really listening, so I'm not prepared to offer a Another thing, cause I was trying to look up the watch brand that you were poorly describing. Serica. There it is. Christ almighty, Andrew. I don't feel bad. Okay. Cause I also couldn't think of the brand name. Even when you said his name, I was like, I don't fucking know that. Um, man, you look at, I mean, a brand like Serica is a perfect example or a brand like Veyr is another really good example who are doing these really kind of classic, simple, spec styled watches right very spartan design well specced and that's it that's their thing is they're doing what would otherwise be considered spec watches in a really cool way in super different ways you know vera is doing a very modern interpretation and while serica is doing like a very like vintage inspired interpretation of these things. And they do some interesting stuff with their like dial fonts and, and that, but I'm, I'm this idea of everyone's doing the same thing kind of became not problematic, but like, when is it, when is it too much that everyone has the same, field watch. I'm going to read a snippet from Henry's article because I think that this excerpt, uh, I think that this kind of captures what we're talking about, but maybe in a roundabout way. It says one thing that is worth mentioning in terms of the history of field watches is that soldier soldiers were issued one and expected to take care of it. As with the aforementioned objects, Field watches were built to function and, with reasonable wear and tear, to serve the wearer for an extended period. Aside from serving a particular function, objects such as the field watch or the KitchenAid mixer or Ray-Ban Wayfarers, which are intended to last, must be designed in a way that makes them timeless. What's ironic is that a foolproof way to transcend time and space aesthetically is to have a clear purpose and functionality that is almost impossible to be improved on. In other words, the necessity of the function oftentimes drives the timelessness of the look. So he does a couple of interesting things there. One, he compares the field watch to Wayfarers and a KitchenAid mixer. I think the Wayfarers, I've used that comparison in talking about something like the SKX. But a KitchenAid mixer, I started to think about that and I was like, that is such a terrific comparison. So the KitchenAid mixer famously, or perhaps not, I don't know, designed by Hobart. And there's a legend about that, which is that when Hobart was designing their home mixer, someone said, This is the most fantastic KitchenAid that has ever been created, and thus was born the KitchenAid stand mixer. I don't know if that's true or not, and it doesn't matter because it's a terrific story nonetheless. The legend is better than the story. But when you look at the design of the KitchenAid stand mixer, it has not changed meaningfully in a half a century. KitchenAid... But it remains on every wedding registry that has ever been made. That's right. Stand mixers are also interesting in another way that's similar to watches, or at least the type of watches we talk about on the show, which is that the best ones remain almost entirely analog. The controls are analog. the, you typically don't have electronics incorporated, although there are some new Breville, I think has some new fangled stuff, but pass, you want to have dials and, and analog tactile feedback buttons and levers, uh, in that thing for a couple of reasons. One, because when an analog lever breaks, You can open it up and see where it's broken and repair it. And two, because that's just what the device demands. The device demands turning and tension and levers and machines that are tactile, as you said, and accessible. Watches are similar. And I think the field watch is the truest expression of that. And I think Henry hits the nail on the head By designing a specification that is so purpose-built, you create something that will transcend amendments and adjustments. Now, arguably, and as we've already alluded to today on this show, I think the GGW-113 is perhaps a slight improvement to the A11 And I think the thing we can most easily point to is, well, two things. One of those is the 24-hour track. It's just objectively better dial. And the second thing is the luminescence. So A11, no mention of luminescence in the specs for the A11. By the time the GGW113 comes around, we've got much more accessible luminescent material, radioactive or not. doesn't matter and you weren't expected to survive. So get poisoned. So there's a technological advancement that happens in that period of time that made that possible. Um, and so, which is not to say the a 11 design was perfect. It obviously wasn't, but at the, at the time, I think it was hard to do much better than what we were doing. I mean, there's all sorts of subjective, you know, bull of a, and Elgin and Waltham do their dials differently. You can tell a Bulova A11 because it's going to have that train track minute track. But besides that, these watches all look the same. Most of them had a fluted bezel. They all look very similar. By design, that was the intent. And so there's something about that people took time, And they said, what do we need? What do we want? What's the execution? So yeah, move this around or connect these lines or whatever. But this is the iconic and absolute standard for this device. And that in and of itself, that process in and of itself, by putting things where they should be, mise en place, you create something that's timeless when it's well done. Can you imagine the dudes on the committee like voluntold to sit on this committee to build this spec sheet and manual. And it's an evolution of a previously existing army manual for timekeeping instruments. Yeah. It's interesting because at the time this was created, 1942 probably is when this was created. Everybody was in the army. Everybody had joined the war effort in the United States and everywhere really in the world. Um, and so, you know, this probably was a combination of young engineers and designers and, and maybe also some haggard old watchmakers, some real, industrial designers, who knows? And it'd be really fascinating to understand who was on that committee that put these specs together. But yeah, this is a committee of people who knew what the fuck they were doing. How many of these people do you think all like came from working at Elgin or Bulova or Waltham and were already entrenched in the industry? balancing like, hey, I know this is what's possible with what we can produce. We do know that the watchmakers, that the watch brands, the American watch brands participated in this project, which is why we know Hamilton specifically did not participate in the A11 project. So we do know that the brands were involved. So yeah, you're certainly right, Andrew. There were watchmakers and watch designers and watch engineers that were part of that process.
Andrew What a cool
Everett watch history thing to have existed in this collision of the war effort against watch design. That really gave birth to, it's okay for us all to be making the same thing or competing kind of in this space to be making the same thing and somehow better than the others. And I know in this instance in the A11, they got their, their, their purchase order, And they just made watches to fill it. But it created an interesting competitive space where it's like, I'm going to do better. I'm going to be better than you, even if I don't have to. And then, you know, now everyone makes a field watch. Yeah. When you approached me about this episode, I think you came at it with a bit of disgruntledness and I'm not sure, I'm not sure what the genesis of that was. And maybe you could talk about it, but I'm telling me that all my watches look exactly the same and she's just fucking wrong. Yeah. Well, well, you know, and there's some perspective there too. I've talked about it on the show before, but, um, you know, I, my, my first watch purchasing journey was comparing the, the Mako to the SKX and, and really having a hard time telling them apart at first, like, but these are the same, what's different. And of course now they, I, I don't think they look at all alike, right. And so there is some relative exposure that's going to change your perspective on that. But I think your disgruntledness was maybe more focused than that. You know, you had said something to me along the lines of if we're in a world where you can just make a spec watch and start a watch brand, what's the point? And although I think that that's an incredibly fair thing to say with regards to watches in general. It's maybe not true about the A11, which I believe we discovered. It's definitely not true about the A11. That to say, and we talked about this a little bit, like, what are you contributing? What are you adding to the watch world? And Nick Harris, I think I've talked about this on this show before, but Nick Harris at one point said to me, when I had sent him a drawing of a watch for Foster. And I said, what do you think of this? And he had said to me, not rudely, but in a particularly Nick Harris way, you know, I think you need to, he said, the world doesn't need more watches, Everett. The world needs more watch designers making interesting watches. And it wasn't meant to be mean. It was more meant to make me think about what was happening. Like, what are we doing with this? Yeah. And I appreciated that. I appreciated that advice, even if it stung a little bit. And I'm not one to say you shouldn't be making this watch to anybody, right? Because we live in a capitalist society. Make your nut. Make your nut. That's right. But aesthetically or perhaps horologically, I want more. I want Contributions. That's right. I want more. I don't mean, I don't mean more in quantity. I mean more in intrigue.
Andrew Yeah.
Everett I want more. I'm, I'm satisfied with the amount. I want to be where the people are.
Andrew Yeah.
Everett Walking around on, what do you call them? Feet? Uh, I, I am generally satisfied with the amount of 12, 24 hour track watches that exist in the world. There's maybe some cool things. And with the Hamilton Kaki Mechanical, do you actually need more watches than that? I'm not sure you do. I'm not sure you do either. And I don't just mean field watches. I mean, watches. It's the perfect watch. I'm like pretty okay with it and I like more is more because I really do believe that more is more and more is more better. It's the monkeys on the typewriters, right? Yeah. I just, I want to see, and I think Nick nailed it. Do we need more watches? And I think the answer is no. It wasn't a question. It was a statement. The world does not need more watches. Concur. The world needs more interesting, thoughtfully designed shit. I think GM Lang is a really good example. Poor Garrett. And right. What you, you know, it's not, it's nothing against him. He saw a really awesome opportunity to make some money, to do something cool. And he really aggressively attacked that. And they did, in fact, do a cool thing. Because they were doing something that other people were doing. For way less money. I mean, GM Lang was the one of our episodes, the best bang for your buck watch. It never made it to market. It never made it to market. And that's why. Because they were doing something that people were already doing and they tried to do it for less and realize that that's just not feasible. Apropos of our show, the GM Lang watch, the Trail Seeker was, I believe, if I'm remembering right, Uh, very close to a dirty doesn't die. But that's what I'm thinking about. It's like, what are you contributing? Are you just trying to make some money or are you doing something cool? You know, I think the worst offender of this. So as I was going through that list, I'm going to, I'm going to read that list real again, real quick. It's again, this is not an exhaustive list, but these are the ones I could find the bull of a hack, the MK two crucible or crucible. the Bertucci A11T, the Precedis A11, whether it's Tom Rice or the 44, MWC, and Baltonino. Of these, I find the Boulevard Hack to be the most offensive, and it's not an offensive watch. It is a lovely watch that's well-priced. It's been on many of our lists. It's well-sized. But for a company like Bulova, which is bizarrely the only American company that exists in anything even remotely similar to its American roots, for a company like Bulova to have made this watch, which is cool, but not at all what I want it to be, It feels offensive to me. And you could argue with me on that at many different angles. That to say, I love what Procetus has done here, which is to really faithfully go into this with expectations of making a watch that people are going to love. And I do get the feeling that Procetus is thoughtful about making a watch that people are going to love. But also making a watch that doesn't really exist. You cannot buy a 32 millimeter A11 outside of Prosidas. Or vintage. That's right. Of course that's right. They are making the only watch that's anything close to the original. And maybe there's a tiny little market for a 32 millimeter field watch. Probably almost non-existent. It almost isn't justifiable for them to produce this watch. With that said, they make it. They do it anyway. And I think it's rad. And I think it's rad. The rest of these are interesting. And I think of these, the most expensive, the MK2, is probably the one I'd be most inclined to own, not just because Bill Yeoh is a rad dude. He's the coolest guy I've ever met. But because it's a really beautiful, really well-made watch, which is not to say the rest of these aren't, but there's none of the watches on this list that I'm like, got to have it. I'd be more inclined to buy a Gigi or a Garrett Lang Trail Seeker if it were available because it's interesting. Even if it was a copy of like three other watches. Nine, maybe even. You know, I want to buy and wear interesting watches. And for me, I'm closer to like a Veyor S3. It's not exactly an A11, but it's really damn close. It has that same kind of feel. It's like an iterative play on the A11. And it's interesting because they're doing cool shit. You know, this this might be I might be speaking too soon for you, but I think this might be a good thought to leave the show on. So famously, Hamilton khaki mechanical is a very close. Iteration of a watch that Hamilton has been making for now 75 years. Going on 70 years, that's right. And they made watches for Vietnam soldiers, they made civilian watches, they continue to make that watch and basically have almost constantly the sizes have been different, the movements have been different, the dials have been different, but it's been the same watch and you can today by famously, I think five years ago, or maybe four years ago, Hamilton adjusted the dial on their Hamilton Khaki Mechanical. God, has it been that long? And it was instantly a hit. When I bought the Hamilton Khaki Mechanical, a watch that I knew almost as soon as I started collecting watches I needed to have, I bought two of them. I bought the new one that is much closer to an OG GGW113 dial. And I bought the last version of Hamilton's main line, which is not that dial. It's a little bit different. The markers are smaller. The spacing is different. But after getting the two, I made the decision to stick with the older one. And I did that for a couple of reasons. One, it felt less generic. even though it was the older version and it wasn't the cool, the new kid. Um, it felt like, well, this is a, this is a really like, this is Hamilton's design. It does all the exact same things, but this is Hamilton's design. This other one's not really Hamilton's design. This is a spec design. And, and, and, and furthermore, I just liked it better. It was a more interesting watch to me for those reasons. And so having both of them in my hands at the same time. Did you double wrist them? No. But with absolutely no reason to pick one over the other. No financial impulse. There was no good reason to pick one. I had them both. I could just pick. I went with the older one because it was more interesting. And I think that's the point, right? You can do this and you can still be interesting. Yes. Especially if you're not If you're making an A11 and it's not 32 millimeters. Make it super fucking interesting. Make it interesting. Right? Like if you're either trying to make it to the spec or not, and if you're not trying to make it to the spec, make it cool.
Andrew Yeah. Yeah.
Everett Just make it cool. Make cool watches. Make cool watches. Andrew. Hmm. Other things. What do you got? I have another thing. So I watched an FX series several years ago called Justified. I've heard of this. And it was Timothy Oliphant. Timothy Oliphant. Yeah. Oliphant?
Andrew Elephant?
Everett Elephant. Elephant? Elephant. Who is a really great cowboy. The whole premise of the show and for those of you who somehow are unfamiliar with FX shows is they are like second only to premium channels. FX makes such good shows. So the whole premise of the show is that Timothy Oliphant's character is a U.S. marshal and he gets reassigned back to kind of his general hometown. And it's a really interesting kind of like the Wire meets John Wayne westerns. And it's great. It's a super enjoyable show. The character arcs are terrific. It has probably my favorite of all time television character in the show because it's just this beautiful story arc and it's a really complex character and they do a good job telling you why the character is the way that they are. And also like showing this growth and progression throughout the show. Anyway, it ended a couple of years ago, several years ago at this point, a couple, like about a month ago, I saw a trailer for a spinoff mini series, still starring our boy, Tim. Right. Justified City Primeval. And it's, the same character, but now he is like in this mini series kind of gets tied up in something in Detroit and he's stuck there. It is great. They like, they found a way to pick up the show exactly where you left off. You don't notice, care about, or even think about the Delta of I think eight years. between when the last season of the original justified ended and where we are now. You can see character growth. You can see like, Oh, this guy is older. He has changed, he has grown, but it's still the dude, right? And this show is great. And it's a limited series, right? It's a limited dish kind of open ended limited series from what I understand. Um, I still have, I think, two episodes to finish because I'm streaming it on Hulu. So I think there's two episodes left in this season. There's kind of a question mark as to whether or not they will do another season or maybe another limited series, like a relocation kind of thing. And I think they're kind of just playing it by ear on whether or not they're going to renew it. But it is cool because I love Like I watched I caught caught up on Primeval and I was like, I want to go back and watch the original one because the show is really good. You know, Andrew, it's interesting because I think probably your favorite two FX series I did not like. I did not like Justified. I did not like Sons of Anarchy. God, you're dumb. With that said, I enjoyed Sons of Anarchy. Sons of Anarchy was really good until the last season. The last season was butts. But if you're anything like me and you're like Andrew's crazy, FX makes terrible series. Just listen to this. It's got 90% on Rotten. Justified. The Americans. Fargo. Fuck yeah. Sons of Anarchy. Legion. The Bear. Atlanta. Always Sunny. And there's more. I think you're right, Andrew. I think, oh, the League, which if you haven't watched the fucking League, go watch it. Dave is FX. Uh, yeah. FX is like second only to the premium channels. What we do in the shadows. Holy shit. Wasn't American Horror Story FX? Um, I don't know. I don't know. I did not. I don't actually think American Horror Story is a good series, but I'm happy to move on from there because I don't want to make anybody mad. Yes, it was FX. Yeah. Uh, they just do really well produced, really well written. Everett's uncultured. He doesn't care for character development. He just wants to see the titties on game of thrones and that's what he wants. That's okay. I don't blame you. Yeah. You just don't get that with FX because it's cable. It's FX. Yeah. and not, you know, stars or skin of max. Andrew, I got another thing. Do me. I've talked about pens, writing pens on this show before. Apple pens. Uh, the folks. Did you know G2 makes a 0.38? Oh, I did. I used one today and I was like, well, fuck that. I guess I'm now into the 0.38 zone. Yeah. Yeah. G2, uh, G2 is like one of the icons I have used for the last several years. a handful of pens. I'm still a pilot high tech C guy. I'm still a uni ball guy. Yeah, you are. But I recently picked up a new set of pens. I was getting low on my pens. I use blue black ink. I'm a big proponent of blue black ink. But I was looking for a new pen. I wanted a new pen and in the Japanese do Small gauge pens better than gel ink pens better than anybody else in the world. Tracks. Zebra, very, very famous company. If you have, you may have had like a Zebra, the F, I think they're 305s or whatever, which you can buy at Office Depot or Office Max. But Zebra's got a JDM line of gel ink pens called the Sarasa. And the Sarasa clip, which is a clicky, clippy pen that I've had in and out of my collection. They released an iteration of the Zebra Sarasa clip called the Zebra Sarasa R. And I'd read about this thing and I thought, well, I'll try them out. They're $1.75 a piece. You can order them from JetPens, uh, and probably a few other places. You may even be able to get these on Amazon. Stationery pal, you can get them for 99 cents a piece. In a .4 blue-black Zebra Saras R, I ordered one of these and then I went back in and I ordered 20 of them. It is my new favorite gel ink pen. If you like a Pilot Hi-Tec C or the Uni-Ball, I think Zebra's making the best gel ink pen between the Clip and the R. Is the Clip metal? It's plastic. It's plastic with a metal, with metal springs and foundation. No, no, no. So the, like, so I put my, I clip my pens like a, is it, is it plastic? It's plastic, but it's a spring. Oh, interesting. It's a hinge with a spring. So you can actually squeeze it to open it and it closes. And I have, I don't believe I've gone through probably 20 of these. I don't think I've ever broken the clip on a, Do you clip your pen to the thing that I clip my pens to is thick? Yeah. I mean, I put it in my pocket. I put it in my bag. Um, it's, it's just an incredibly well-made pen. All that to say the R is different from the clip. I think only in one meaningful way, which is that supposedly there's 25% more pigment that's floated in the ink. I don't notice a huge difference there. but if you've used a Zebra Sarasa clip and a 0.4, the R is a little bit smoother. It's a little bit smoother to write with, and it actually looks better too. It's a white case instead of a clear case. And I think it's just a terrific pen. It is my new favorite pen, the Zebra Sarasa R 0.4 in blue black. That's my other thing. For the week. Andrew, do you want to say anything about that? I am going to insist that you give me one. I've got one. I can give you one.
Andrew Okay.
Everett It'll be linked. They're terrific. I'll give you one and you'll have to report back. I will let you know. It is. Okay. So it's a clip. It's a clip with a spring. And it's a metal spring, and it's not like a round spring. It's a lever spring, and I've never broken one. And you can get refills for this if you really want, but I just use them and get a new one when I'm done as as pens are there. They're durable. I think it is my new very favorite durable gel ink pen. It is worse. than a pilot, what's that? Just blanking on it. The G2. The G2. It's worse than a pilot G2 in the sense that you're going to have to order these. And when you run out, you're going to have to order more. You can't go to Home Depot and get these or Office Max or Target or Walmart. Everywhere in the world carries a pilot G2. So if you want a pilot G2, you just go to the closest place. I prefer the 0.5. I'm recently aware of the 0.38. I prefer the 0.38 to the 0.5. But if you're someone that uses a Pilot G2 and you're like, this is it. You have just. You have just breached the surface of this world because there are about 50 pens that you can buy on JetPens or somewhere else right now. that will exceed a Pilot G2 in almost every sense possible. And if you're not excited about pen improvements in your life, you're doing it wrong. That's right. This is a watch podcast. Stop it. Go get a better pen. Yeah. Andrew, anything else you want to add before we go today? I'm all out of things, man. Hey, you guys, thank you for joining us for this episode of 40 and 20, the Watch Clicker podcast. We talk about watches and you can check us out on our website, Watch Clicker. That's where we post every single episode of this podcast, as well as reviews and articles. Things like Henry Marginal's article on the Field Watch, which will be linked in today's show notes. If you want to check us out on social, you can do that at watch clicker or at 40 and 20 underscore watch clicker. And report that 40 and 20 Instagram. Shit's a fake. If you want to support us, and oh boy, we hope you do, you can do that at patreon.com slash 40 and 20. Look, that's how we got all the money to keep the wheels on this truck a turning. And don't forget to tune back in next Thursday for another hour of watches, food, drinks, life, and other things we like. Bye bye.