Episode 190 - Sinking the Flagships

Published on Wed, 15 Jun 2022 23:45:36 -0700

Synopsis

Andrew and Everett discuss the concept of "flagship" watches for different brands. They explore how this term is often misunderstood or misapplied, and debate which watches should be considered the true flagships for brands like Omega, Rolex, Seiko, and others. They also touch on some smaller brands and whether they can truly have flagships. The discussion highlights the nuances of how different brands approach their lineups and marketing.

Transcript

Speaker
Andrew Hello fellow watch lovers, nerds, enthusiasts, or however you identify. You're listening to 40 in 20, the Watch Clicker podcast with your host, Andrew. I'm a good friend, Everett. Here, we talk about watches, food, drinks, life, and other things we like.
Unknown Everett, how are you?
Everett Hi, I'm good. Yeah. Yeah, no, I'm here. You've got a cooler, a six pack size cooler full of six beers, which is the best thing to have in this cooler. I brung a variety. You brung, you brung some burrs. Uh, no, I'm doing well. I camped in the rain last weekend, which was, which is, I don't like that.
Andrew Oh, you guys went camping on the coast? Yeah. I didn't realize that you had gone camping.
Everett We did go camping. Um, I, I'm not a big fan of it. Camping in the rain, just not my thing.
Andrew Um, not with kids. Like solo, it's one thing, right? It's a small footprint to dry out with kids. Huh.
Everett The whole thing. And you know, I've been in the army. I've slept in puddles, like literally slept in puddles, as have you, Andrew, right? Like I can do it. I just don't want to do it. Yeah. I'm just not interested in it. So, uh, yeah, but it was fun. Camping was fun. It didn't rain the whole time. Um, and we wound up coming back before that second sleep, which was good. Cause we got that full second day, but came home before the second sleep. So we missed out on the, like everything had kind of dried out.
Andrew Oh, that's when you pack it up. Yeah.
Everett Yeah. Yeah. So that was good.
Andrew You call trips early after you get about 10 hours of dry. You're like, that's time to go.
Everett But yeah, no, I, uh, but it was a good time. But other than that, I'm good. I, uh, uh, I'm ready to, I'm ready to do this thing. Andrew, how are you?
Andrew I, I'm also good. You know, I'm right on the tail end of weekend as per usual. And it has been a very productive weekend. Got the lawns mowed. Pulled about 30 gallons of bamboo. So just, you know, big yard work weekend. And that's, I'm like coming to terms with that's what my weekends consist of now.
Everett Do you measure the bamboo you cut that you remove in terms of garbage cans?
Unknown Yeah.
Andrew Cause that's how much comes out. It goes into my yard debris and I'm like, that's about 30 gallons. So now my weekends consist of yard work, which means that I can officially start shopping for clothes at Costco. I have now achieved that level of existence. Yeah. Yeah. Hooray. You don't have to do that. You can though. You can. You can. You can just give up.
Everett Well, Andrew, we've got no, no new watch alerts. No, no new watch alerts. You're wearing a Saab, which I like to see. I am wearing my Saab today.
Andrew I like to see it. I did, I did, uh, I was in a class last week, so I didn't ever have to worry about what watch I was wearing. Five days, five watches. It's been a long time since I've done. And then weekend I wore different watches. It was not really seven days, seven watches. Yeah. I haven't done that in a long time.
Everett It's good to see it. Yeah. I'm happy to see that. Um, we, we are going to talk about watches tonight, but first I want to remind you, uh, I want to remind you today is You're probably, you're probably, cause you're a diligent listener, listening to this on the 16th of June, which means that after today, you have only two days or including today, you have only two days left to go to nick mankey designs.com and get your 40 and 20 slash watch clicker hook strap collaboration strap. Collaboration hook strap. Branded. Branded with our logo.
Andrew With, with any of our logos. So for each of the colorways, small, medium, large, whichever logo you want on the thing, I bet if you emailed him and you wanted two logos for one reason or another, he might be able to make that happen.
Everett Yeah. Let's not make any promises.
Andrew But these are so cool. I've got two coming in the mail. They should be in the mail or ear in the next couple of days. Yeah.
Everett You know, and folks are getting these really quickly because they're cut to length ahead of time. We've, these have already, these are arriving to people, people are wearing them. Dave Murphy of Murphy bezels. Yeah. Murphy manufacturing. Yeah. Murphy manufacturing, uh, guest of the former guest of the show, early guest of the show. Uh, I saw him rocking one this week. Um, so people are already getting them again, facets. So you got two days, you got two days. Uh, a portion of the proceeds do come to us to be used for hardware and software. We actually got some new hardware coming. I know I mentioned it, I've alluded to it, how it's not going to make a difference to anybody besides me. But we're going to like it more. But I'm stoked. I've watched a bunch of videos about it now.
Andrew As one does.
Everett We're going to be one of the first people in America to have this new board. Pro status.
Andrew So Andrew, what are we talking about today? Oh, so today. We're talking about watches, as we usually do. As you do. And today we've got one of our, a little bit philosophical topics. Philosophy. The idea of the flagship watch. Yeah. And this idea came about as I was kind of brainstorming things and I was looking at watch brands and what This is an important distinction, and we'll get here after I'm muted and unmuted several times. The distinction between a flagship watch and what we perceive as the flagship watch, what is a flagship and are brands using the right watch, in my opinion, as their flagship? And that's part of the issue here. There are some companies that have a flagship that's dope. It's great. There are things that are better. I think. And because I think it, they should just do it. Just do it the way I want you to do it. And everyone's going to be happier. Even though for a lot of the brands we're going to talk about, these are unobtainium kind of watches. I mean, these aren't, these aren't your affordables category that we're going to be talking about today. Because most affordable brands don't really have a big air quotes flagship.
Everett Yeah, I think that's right. At least not a single, a single flagship. Do you mind if I, for just a second, disambiguate the term flagship? I insist that you do. Because the term flagship is one of these terms that's become so universal, so understood that it's completely... Misunderstood? Misunderstood. Uh, so what a flagship is a flagship is a Navy term. It literally refers to a ship in a fleet, usually a military fleet. And the flag refers to the presence of a flag officer on board that ship. So usually the commander of a fleet in the Navy, that would typically be an admiral in, in the army, in the ground forces. We also have flag officers, at least in the American army, uh, the United States army or United States military. We've got army generals, which are flag officers. Most places, flag officers are exclusively Navy admirals. And the flagship is the ship where the commander, the admiral typically is housed. So it is usually the fastest ship. It's usually the most comfortable ship. It's usually the ship that gets the trickest technology. The best defenses. Usually, not always. Probably the best food. But that's right. The best food. On average, the flagship is sort of the pretty, shiny, resource heavy, most important ship in the fleet. And so when we use the term flagship to refer to anything else, it's a metaphor. we're referring to the metaphor of a Navy flagship housing an admiral, a flag officer. And I think that we can use examples from other industries to help us understand what a flagship for watches might mean. And I think you might want to disagree with me on some of this, on some of these suggestions, which is fine. And that's what we can do. But I'm going to say for my part, We've got flagships in the automotive industry. So for instance, Lexus, I don't know if I've ever talked about the fact that I drive a Lexus, uh, on this show, but Lexus has their flagship sedan, the LS series, and you know, the days of the LS being like a really, really phenomenal car, or maybe behind us But at some point in time, certainly up until the mid 2000s, Lexus LS series, you know, the 400, 434, 60 and so on was Lexus's flagship. It got all the best technology. It was often the most expensive. Uh, broadcasting companies, radio companies often have a flagship station. That's usually the station that has the most resources, the most expensive talent, the best Advertisement, right? Um, stores. When a company has a flagship store, I mean, you use the term bougie. It's usually the bougiest store. Yup. It's oftentimes got more inventory. Uh, sometimes models you can't find anywhere else. Sometimes they have stupid things that like, aren't even for sale that are just there to be cool. You know, you might have museum stuff. A water feature. That's right. Yeah. Right. Silly stuff. The flagship, most of the time we're using it, is the fanciest, most heavily invested in example of something. So I don't think that that's universally true for watches. And there's a whole bunch of things we'll talk about as we go through that make watches slightly different. But when we talk about flagship watches, that's the context that I'm able to find from other places.
Andrew And within that context, it's important to note that those are, that's the foot that that brand, company, organization, that's the foot they're putting forward. That's how that brand wants to be seen, understood. That flagship store car is the brand identity. It's the gold standard to which everything else needs to be brought to. Or maybe not, but that's their identity right there.
Everett That's important.
Andrew Their leading foot, yeah. Yeah. That's important as we dive into this flagship talk, which I think you've raised a good point. It's interesting in the watch world and is maybe a term that we should do away with because I'm not sure it really fits very well. We'll maybe circle all the way back to that should we have time.
Everett Yeah. Yeah. Do you have any preferences on where we start? Because I think that there's a place I'd like to start, if not.
Andrew I want to defer to you if you've got a preference, because I'm just, I'm ready for all of it.
Everett You know, I think I'd like to start with a brand near and dear to me, and I think maybe also to you, at least in terms of talking about watches, but that's Omega. We've polled some people. We've polled some people. Some people, the editor of another website, that we don't talk about, went so far as to say, the answer is so obvious as to make anyone questioning it stupid. And actually specifically as to make me, Everett, stupid for questioning it. But the question was, what is Omega's flagship watch? And the answer given to me by this editor of a website that we don't mention was Speedy. It's obvious. Um, and to that, I say, no, it's not.
Andrew And, and I, that's what brings the conflict to the use of flagship to the conversation specifically with Omega. Cause I think Omega is unique in how they use, they don't use flagship, how we use flagship. and I don't think they conform to it.
Everett That's going to be a common theme tonight, by the way.
Andrew Yeah. I'd be inclined to agree. First impression, the flagship of Omega is the Speedmaster. But when we look at the context of what a flagship is and what this metaphor truly means, It's not. Yeah.
Unknown Yeah.
Andrew The Speedmaster is gorgeous. Iconic. Iconic. Yeah. Exceptionally antiquated. The Omega has all this cool technology and they just leave the Speedmaster, you know, for 20 year chunks before they do any of these upgrades. They're just gathering cobwebs and they're, they're almost stuck. to the Speedmaster because of how iconic it is, like painted into a corner, like Speedmaster. When people think of Omega, they think Speedmaster right away because of how iconic this watch is.
Everett And so we should be clear, right? Speedmaster is a line. When we talk about the Speedmaster, I think basically we're talking about the Speedmaster Pro. Yes.
Andrew And you know, the close derivatives. I would imagine that, Nobody is considering the Snoopy Speedy as the flagship of Omega.
Everett But they could be, so don't. So I've made the pitch that rather than the Speedmaster, so notable, I think 2021, Omega made the decision to, 21 years later, put a coaxial movement into the Speedy. Finally. Which... You know, say what, you know, say what you will about a coaxial movement. I think that coaxial escapement is a really neat invention and I love tech. Um, you know, I guess the standard anchor escapement is probably more ubiquitous, probably easier to work on. So all that to say, they don't care if it's easy to work on. That is Omega's trick tech, right? The coaxial escapement is master coaxial is Omega's trick tech and it, they did not. utilize that in the Speedmaster until very recently. The Speedmaster has a pretty simple clasp. Beautiful. A well-made bracelet. Also beautiful, but not complicated. The Speedmaster Pro, until this last iteration, was, you used the word antiquated, and I think that's fair. That is not, that does not fit the metaphor.
Unknown No.
Andrew It doesn't fit the metaphor for many reasons, but we apply it to the most iconic watches that we think of in a brand. And that's maybe the miss, the disconnect here. Few brands have a watch as iconic as the Speedmaster.
Everett Yes, Speedmaster. The Speedmaster is like one of the most iconic watches ever made.
Andrew Which creates a bit of a branding problem for Omega. Right, they created this watch in the 60s to go to the moon. I'm sure when they were doing it, they were not expecting... Well, the Speedmaster was created to be a racing watch. Right, but they tricked it out to make it go to the moon, right? That's why they put it in. They added some things and made some changes and said, hey, we'll go. They get there. I'm sure no one at Omega at the time expected the subsequent popularity of this watch to be so long lasting. They knew it would be cool, right? That's why you, that's why you put your stuff in for projects like this. It's great marketing. It's great exposure, but they kind of tied themselves to a runaway horse in the way of the excitement and the popularity and the, the, they tied themselves to this runaway horse. in all of these things where they now, even if they wanted to, couldn't discontinue the Speedmaster. Yeah. And maybe their disinclination to upgrade it as frequently as they're upgrading other lines is demonstrative of their, maybe demonstrative of their desire to slightly divorce it from all the other cool shit they're doing. Yeah.
Everett You know, I, I'd make the pitch that the planet ocean is Omega's flag flagship in, in, within the parameters of metaphor, the planet ocean line, you know, it's a line again, there are 600 meter planet oceans there, you know, they've got this new ultra deep, um, uh, you know, with their, their new sort of titanium. I mean, that's, that's a flagship-y stuff. I think that the argument in favor of the Speedy being the flagship versus the Planet Ocean is largely one of status, right? Icon status. Mike made the argument, and I'm not sure what evidence he has that this is true, but that Omega markets the Speedmaster more heavily.
Andrew Speedmaster markets itself.
Everett Yeah, I don't know that that's true. I also don't know that it's not true. It could very well be. But I don't think that that in and of itself creates a flagship. So certainly both of these watches are in the upper end of Omega's sort of basic line. You know, I think these watches are both running just south of seven, new. They're basic Planet Ocean, they're basic Speedmasters. But in terms of the way they treat the actual watches, I probably give the nod to the Planet Ocean. But certainly the Speedmaster is in that conversation. I don't intend to say the Speedmaster is clearly not. And I think it's possible to say Omega is really running dual flagships. And I don't think that's a problem.
Andrew Yeah, I mean, I don't, I wouldn't, it's clearly not a problem. But when you go to their, the Omega web page, their home site right now, has three celebrity ambassadors and their choice of watch. Immediately below it is their best sellers, which is side-by-side photographs of the Moonwatch Pro on a bracelet and the Moonwatch Pro on leather. Okay. Well, there you go. Scrolling down more Speedmaster stuff. You don't see a Planet Ocean until some Father's Day gift recommendations.
Everett This is a dad watch.
Andrew A moon swatch. Yeah.
Unknown More Speedmasters. More Speedmasters.
Everett And there we go. Well, so let's just say for argument that Omega has two flagships, because I think that's, I think that's okay. Right. Uh, you know, also, you know, we see that in other industries, brands may have two sort of different, and these watches are very different watches, right? One of them has all the water resistance and the other one has all the heritage, none of the water resistance, right? So, so let's say they're doing two. What about a company whose approach to flagshipping, true flagshipping is all, all of our products will be flagships. Oh, are you talking about Rolex? I am talking about Rolex because I think that that's a fairly natural evolution here. When you ask yourself, what is Rolex flagship watch? I think that there are quite a few really fair responses.
Andrew I go right to sub and I go right to sub because I think it's the cornerstone of the Rolex identity. They have a terrific catalog. And a fairly wide reaching catalog. I mean, what, 16-ish?
Everett Different models. Yeah. Yeah.
Andrew I don't know the number, but we'll, we'll, I don't know. It doesn't matter. But my mind always goes to the sub. It was there. I can't explain why. In the way of brand identity, but it's also the first one to get tricked out when they do technology releases. You look at Glidelock and the collar things and all of these changes and upgrades and releases.
Everett And not always. Rolex actually does a pretty good job of sprinkling its innovation, its innovative tech. For me, it's the sub. You know, and I wonder, same question then, is that because the sub is more iconic or because it's actually being treated by Rolex? Because I think that there are case there is also a case for the Sea-Dweller perhaps. I think their first watch with 904 steel was the Sea-Dweller. I think that there's perhaps a case for the Daytona which gets cool new movement tech. I think that there is perhaps a case for the president, at least historically, which has been sort of there. That's kind of legacy though. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think even still today, the president is there like hot shit three-hander, right?
Andrew But it doesn't have, it's a hot shit three-hander. What cool new technology you're going to dump into it.
Everett Well, but it gets, it's always got precious metal.
Andrew Uh, you, you know, I didn't come up though the Explorer, which is interesting. Well, I think, I think for me, the Explorer is the most iconic Rolex.
Everett But I think that there's an argument for the Explorer, both of the Explorers to be a flagship. And that is because Rolex is fucking weird. There are a few watches, the Rolex, those that are clearly not flagships, right? Uh, you know, whatever they're, they're dressed this lady or whatever, clearly not a flagship. Um, they're Oyster Perpetual, almost certainly, you're not going to call that a flagship. You know, maybe some of the weirder... Fourteen. Fourteen. Fourteen. Well done. But many, many, many of their watches, I think, are properly treated like flagships within their collection, right? They sprinkle them with trick tech. They front and center them. they treat these watches like separate brands.
Andrew Yeah. There's no overlap. There's no cross branding there. There's, I mean, Rolex is the flagship of Rolex. Yeah. Whatever you get from us is going to be, as long as it's the new thing, it's going to have the newest technology. It's going to have the newest, coolest stuff that we can do. And it's going to be this luxury item. that nothing can compare to. We won't even compare ourselves against ourselves.
Everett Right. We're going to make the same. 10, 14, you say the same, you know, whatever, seven reals, really like seven or eight watches always in forever. Yeah. That's all the watches we're going to make. And they're all flagships. Fuck you. If you, if you want one, you can bounce it. There's no civic here. That's right. There's no Honda civic.
Andrew There just isn't, and I think that's a really interesting take, and perhaps why Rolex is Rolex. They don't have a, eh, let's throw it at the wall, line. Everything's simple and standalone. And sold out. Yeah, and sold out. Good luck getting one. I don't even know why they have a website.
Everett What about a brand that takes the opposite approach? Ooh, the opposite approach.
Andrew No flagships. No flagships.
Everett Seiko? I'm thinking of a company that starts with an S and ends with an Ako. Do you want to guess? Citizen. Seiko doesn't have a flagship. Nothing even slightly close to a flagship, what I'd consider a flagship, and certainly that fits the metaphor that we've discussed today. Seiko's got none of that. They're completely the opposite of a company like Rolex.
Andrew And really the opposite of anything that would even resemble a flagship. They kill lines, like with total disregard for what we the watch people want. They don't care.
Everett They've got 10,000 SKUs. Maybe more. And within those 10,000 SKUs, they've got 3,000 different distinct watches. And very few of them could be considered a flagship.
Andrew Not in the way that a flagship metaphor could be appropriately applied.
Everett Yeah. You know, I think there are some arguments for some of the Grand Seiko. I mean, Grand Seiko is a separate brand though, so not fairly under the Seiko umbrella today.
Andrew Before the divorce, Grand Seiko as a brand, as a logo, could have been argued for as a flagship of Seiko. King Seiko is maybe in that, like treading in that water right now.
Everett Yeah, well, so right, if you go back in the history of Seiko, they did have flagships. Yeah. Right. Clearly, both King Seiko and Grand Seiko are successors to what were obviously intended to be flagship lines.
Andrew And then they Seiko'd it up and they were like, no, we need 10 more. Because you look at things like the Tuna, the Samurai, the Arnie, just these, this, these all tricked out, teched out, cool things. Oh, and then by the way, did I say the tuna or the mini tuna? And then how about the Seiko five divers? There's just nothing that stands alone as the focus of their attention. I mean, they dropped what? Five new lines last week, right? Like five new iterative lines.
Everett And I think that there are things that Seiko sold over time that for a period of time sort of felt like flagships, right? You know, certainly before they separated from Grand Seiko, you know, you had watches like the snowflake. But that's iconic.
Andrew I don't think that's flagship.
Everett Well, I'm not sure I agree with you. And I actually think that Grand Seiko does a pretty good job with having their tits options there to, you know, like really tricked out stuff. Um, you know, anything with spring drive, anything with nine F frankly is, is, which is courts, which is odd, but they do a good job with tech. They just don't focus it. I think is your point.
Andrew Yeah. They don't limit it. They, if they're like, Hey, we have this cool new technology and every watch we have is going to have it because of Japan usually would say because of America, but that would be wrong instance. because of Japan, maybe just because of Seiko.
Everett How about another company on our list that we could talk about? A German company, Zinn. I'd like to talk about Zinn because we've told quite a few people about this today, and almost universally, everybody had the same answer for Zinn, which was the 556. And the 556 is a Honda Civic. It is the epitome of a Civic.
Andrew It was the most affordable, the most proliferated, the least frills. There's just no way that the 556 fits in the flagship category for Zen. When you look at the tech that is available and fully kitted out watches in their catalog, that a three-hander is going to be the flagship.
Everett With that said, I think to a person, 5, 5, 6 was the answer given to us. 100%.
Andrew It was even my first thought.
Everett 5, 5, 6. Yeah. I don't think it fits. I think that the U1 perhaps fits.
Andrew I think the U1 with Tegement is the flagship if there's going to be one assigned.
Everett Yeah, I think I agree. I think I agree. What is that? So, we've identified a phenomenon here. With Omega, perhaps a little bit. But it really, I think the phenomenon is, we were able to put a point on it with Zen. The 556 is just clearly not a flagship. And yet everyone that we talked to from a variety of different sort of mindsets and even forums that I read, 556 was universally accepted to be the answer. Zen's got you know, the 104, 103, 104, you know, these much higher end watches, certainly today, the Tejman and U1, I think fits the bill perfectly. What's happening here that, that are people misunderstanding the term that is there something in watches that's different when we, when we use this term?
Andrew I think people want to like the iconic things, right? We have this inherent desire, number one, to feel knowledgeable and to feel like we're speaking knowledgeably. So we throw around terms like, oh, it's a flagship.
Everett We're all just full of shit.
Andrew Yeah. I think, I think we're conflating iconic, popular, with what is really a very specific and carefully thought out decision by a company. You know, Tissot doesn't want the PRX to be their flagship.
Everett Well, and I don't think it is.
Andrew But if you were to poll a hundred watch people today, they would say that the PRX is Tissot's flagship model because it's currently the most popular. They're putting the most ass behind it. It's there becoming an iconic watch. It can't be iconic yet, but it's getting there. It's, it's, it's on a meteoric rise in popularity. And, and I think that's the issue. I think people are conflating popularity. It's status as a, as an icon in the watch world with what a true flagship is for a brand. And I don't, I mean, the, the word has become diluted such that it is interchangeable, but it's not, it's not an interchangeable word word. The five, five, six can not be the flagship of this cool ass tool watch company. Yeah. Cause it's cool. It's elegant. It's a tool watch. But it's a simple three-hander. Sure. And against all of the other things that they're doing, I think Zen would even be offended. Like, that's not my fucking flagship. Right.
Everett That's our affordable.
Andrew That's our, that's our civic man. Like, what are you talking? Look at, look deeper in the catalog.
Unknown Yeah.
Andrew There's better shit in our catalog. Just because you like that the best doesn't mean it is the best.
Everett So your original concept for this episode, Andrew, was. Flagships that should sink. Flagships, that's right. So watches that have been anointed by companies to receive the most ass, as you say, that are not the best choices and substituting the watches in the collection that we think should be. So I think it would be fun to do a little bit of a speed round here. Okay. Let's go through some brands. Let's go through some of the ones we talked about and some others. Sort of see if we can agree on what the flagship is and what the flagship perhaps could or should be. Going back, Omega.
Andrew I think Omega should lean into the Speedmaster as a flagship. Because it's so iconic already. They don't need to keep it antiquated. If they could start pouring in cool new upgrades to the Speedmaster Pro, it would make that watch all the cooler. I don't think it would betray the legacy of it, which I think is maybe a concern for Omega. They don't want to betray the legacy of the Speedmaster.
Everett And I think in that it's a, it's a little bit of a. So not like an X 33, but like a Speedmaster that's actually receiving like the hottest shit.
Andrew Yes. I think, I think that would be my preference.
Unknown Yeah.
Andrew The Planet Ocean's cool. I'd like to see them lean into the, what they already have that was already, I mean, not given to them, but that the Speedmaster created and just lean into it.
Everett Yeah. For, for my part, I'm actually cool with, with Omega's approach here. I think that, um, I think it took them too long to sort of, Bring the Speedmaster up to standard spec, but I, I think they've probably mostly done that. I'd love to see a hundred water, a hundred meters of water resistance on a speedy, but that's sort of cliche at this point to even ask for it. So with that said, I think that having the planet ocean line be there, you know, trickest tech watch. I'm cool with that. Uh, Rolex. So we, we, we highlighted a bunch of different. Rolex models that all sort of deserve consideration. What's the Rolex for you that you'd like to see sort of really pushed forward and to be techie and cool and fun? The sub is the perfect choice for it. And so maybe they're already doing what they need to be doing.
Andrew The sub is a perfect choice for it. I'd like to see all Rolex attention move away from the Explorer to make the Explorer more affordable. But I think the the sub is truly the best choice. It's got great heritage and legacy. It's a good platform to be introducing technology to because it's already a tool watch that can be improved upon in incremental ways.
Everett Yeah. I think you're almost arguing for them to decrease the attention that they've spent on some of their watches in order to make them less trick.
Andrew No, just, just stop what you're doing.
Everett Let, let it languish.
Unknown Yeah.
Andrew And maybe stop R&D entirely for about three years and just make watches. What you're doing is fine, just make some more. Seiko. I'd like to see King Seiko emerge as kind of a flagship line of watches within the Seiko umbrella. I think they can do some really cool stuff in that segment. If they can keep it south of Grand Seiko, right on that top tier of the accessible Seikos, I think it'd be a really cool choice for them.
Everett Yeah, if they could pump in a bit of tech, right? Like pump in a bit of water resistance. And it seems like maybe they're going to lean in that direction. So good call. I'll just completely endorse that. decision.
Andrew I think it has to be a line. I don't think Seiko can choose a single skew and try to make it a flagship. I think they've broadened their, they're too broad to condense down a single thing.
Everett A brand that we didn't talk about before, but that we can briefly deal with the, what is their flagship issue? Tech Hoyer. Tech Hoyer is the one company we found that's on record uh pretty publicly as to having a line of watches that's their flagship which is the Carrera uh you know both the three handers and the chronographs and sports chronographs they've said this is our flagship line if you were to choose is there a Tag Heuer that you would like to see really get that flagship treatment
Andrew I mean, I'd like to see the Monaco and the, uh, not the Aqua Terra, the, um, Aqua Racer, get that treatment. But I think the Carrera perfectly fits. Tag Heuer is this, it's a racing brand. At least in my eye, you know, you see Tag Heuer on everything. You see it on golf and, you know, at the Olympics and all these other places, but it's a racing brand. It needs to be this racing chronograph.
Everett You think the Carrera is the right pick?
Andrew It's the absolute right pick.
Everett Yeah. You know, I think I would like to see them do some, some things with the F1. Uh, I'm not sure purely flagshipy things, but I, I think I'd really like to see them lean into the quality of F1 make, you know, that's such a cool line with such a cool history. I think that today F the F1 watches are kind of want, want, and I, and I think that that could be a really cool one. Uh, Oris, let's talk about Oris.
Andrew We gotta, we need to give a few minutes to Oris here. I know this is a speed round. The Anquis is their flagship. Concur?
Everett I think I do concur. Although it seems to me that they are, um, right now pro-pilot X-ing it up in a flagship type of way.
Andrew In a flagship type of way, yes.
Everett But it's got, it's got fantastic tech. It's got their, their R&D team working, burning the midnight oil, as you would say, I think that it qualifies for a flagship.
Andrew Are they rebranding to the ProPilot X? As their flagship?
Everett Yeah. Well, maybe.
Andrew Yeah, they may be, you know, putting marketing money is in the flagship.
Everett But R&D, but R&D as well. So I think that it's one of those two, if not both.
Andrew I'd like to see them put more into the big crown. I love the background. I love the pointer date. This thing is tits. I like it very much and I wish they would. I don't know how they would make it cooler, but with that kind of budget for R&D, I think they could make it a lot cooler and I wouldn't like it even more.
Everett Yeah, I mean it's an interesting watch. It's an affordable watch, relatively affordable. I think 2K for these.
Andrew Yeah, the pointer date on steel. 1950.
Everett So what do you, what do you, when you say you'd like to see them focus some efforts on this, what do you, what do you want to see?
Andrew I don't know. That's where I want their attention though. I want them to make this watch cooler, better. Part of it's that I don't particularly like the Aquas and I don't have a real good reason for why. I think there are, I think that was a weird horse to hitch their wagon to. in the scheme of the rest of their catalog.
Everett You know, we're the same in that we are not huge Aquas fans. But I think a lot of people really like that watch. And I think it's an extremely popular and good watch. And it's a different dive watch, which is kind of neat in and of itself. Sink it, big crown it. Sink that plaque shit. Yeah. What about micro brands, Andrew? Or let's open it up to small brands. I can think of a few small brands that have what I would call flagships. There's right now two that immediately pop to mind. And there's a few others that I have question marks for. What are your favorite micro brand flagships?
Andrew So we talked about this a little bit and we talked about Notice and the Avalon being their flagship.
Everett Yeah, I think that that they use the phrase halo watch.
Andrew They do use the word halo watch, which is maybe more appropriate.
Everett Although I'm not exactly sure what it means.
Andrew But I think when you look at small brands who are frankly just like scraping and clawing to stay alive, to stay relevant. I don't know. I don't know where that turning point is. for a brand to be able to have a true flagship. You know, Notice can call the Avalon their halo, which I assume to mean they're going to be hanging their hat on the Avalon forever.
Everett Yeah. And I tend to think of that phrase halo as a halo product is a product that is just universally liked by people who enjoy a brand, which makes them buy other products from the brand, which are maybe less good because of their experience with that one really good product. Uh, I don't know that that's what they mean when they say that. Um, I actually think the duality is, is perhaps notices when I look at their catalog, I kind of think that the duality is maybe a flagship product, but I don't know that they can.
Andrew I think they're too nimble still to be set in stone. I mean, they can, they can build their collection around it. Like when you look at Laurier, I think Laurier is perhaps a better example. I think forever their flagship will be the Falcon. That's the watch they want to hang their hat on. That's what they want that to be their cornerstone item in their collection. But you look at the Neptune, It's getting the cooler tech that's getting the cooler stuff. You look at their GMT, which is certainly getting the cooler stuff and the cooler tech.
Everett Though they, uh, it's just Lori is a hard brand because everything's sort of at that, at that really same level.
Andrew I think small brands are closer to Rolex in that every line gets the same amount of attention, the same amount of love and can stand alone against the rest.
Everett What about Christopher Ward? I think that C 60, I think that the Aqua Tain is as of. you know, a few months ago, their flagship product, um, certainly they have other watches and other lines, but it seems to me like they've sort of positioned that to be a flagship. Uh, is, is there a watch that, that Christopher Ward makes, or is there, is there a way that you'd like to see them sort of push one of their lines forward?
Andrew I think their, their Trident line is their, is what they would consider to be their flagship product. Right? It's got all the cool tech. It's getting upgraded. And they, they, uh, a lot of their releases come in the way of a short run of something like that. Like, Hey, this is, you know, some more, some more trident, some more trident, some more of this. Here's the plastic one. Here's the reclaimed plastic one, right? Here's the, you know, what you will. And they've, they've done some interesting stuff. It sort of seemed like with the C 63 family, cause they, they tend to release in families. I think they're going to be similar to Seiko. If you're going to want a flagship and a family flagship, the C 63 came out and kind of seemed like they were going to try to do that. And then here comes the Aquitaine. I don't know that they care if they have a flagship.
Everett Yeah. Yeah. I just want you to like their shit. I think, I think you might be right about that. Um, you know, just, Just to run through a few of the bigger brands. Mm-hmm. Cartier. Pretty clear that's Santos. I think it's the Tank. Oh, interesting. I think it's the Tank. And I think it's Santos. Adam RPK. Clearly the Royal Oak, correct? What? Patek Philippe. Oh, is it... Clearly the Nautilus, correct? Oh, what? Uh, many of these brands, many of these brands have watches that are so iconic that there's nothing else. Uh, I think an interesting one is, is Zenith.
Andrew Yeah.
Everett The Zenith El Primero has for a long time been their flagship. I think, I think the Kronosport is perhaps now their flagship watch.
Andrew Are they going to, they're going to move away from it?
Everett Well, maybe not move away from it, but I think that they've pushed, they've pivoted. Yeah. So, um, Anything else that you're dying to talk about before we shift away from this?
Andrew I think Tudor is is really. Oh, yeah. We focusing on. I mean, hot take here. They're really putting a lot of ass behind the Black Bay line. Yeah. It seems like Tudor wants to become just the Black Bay line. The Black Bay company. Yeah. And and with good reason. There's a lot of great watches in that family.
Everett And I think that they're selling really well.
Unknown Yeah.
Andrew And it's the, you know, maybe it's the argument of does popularity, does marketing, does that make the flagship or is it the tech investment, the R&D? Because in that case, the Pelagos is clearly
Everett the flagship of Tudor? Yeah, I don't think there's a question in my mind what the flagship of Tudor is. It's the Pelagos.
Andrew But they're telling us to buy Black Bay. Right. In all of its varieties.
Everett I'd really like Tudor to be a company more like Daddy in that they have seven or eight really sort of discreet lines that they pump a lot of energy into. I don't like this move. They killed, I think probably my two favorite tutors in the North Bay and the ranger, the North Bay, the North North flag, North flag, the North Bay, the North flag being a really unique, interesting, attractive watch. And, and the ranger being a really simple, essential watch. It was a little big. I'd like to see them expand those lines. Don't kill those lines. Put some ass into them. Make them flagship-like. Do what you need to do to make those watches popular. Obviously, I'm not an employee of the Hans Wolter Foundation.
Andrew We could be, though, and we are always open to offers.
Everett And you know, they are better than probably anybody in the world at marketing and selling products.
Andrew So I won't, I won't. They're not great at selling products. They're great at marketing products.
Everett I won't malign their, I won't malign their efforts with my, my amateur, my amateur views, but I do think the flagship of Tudor's line is the Pelagos. Although not a ton of love as of late, we obviously had the FXD, That's a cool watch.
Andrew Yeah, it's a cool watch. I'm going to have one someday.
Everett Andrew, you're my flagship. You are mine.
Andrew What do you got for other things? Oh, I've been watching a new TV show on Disney. I was talking to your daughter about it, and she made fun of me. Oh, my daughter is good at that. So I asked if she'd been watching it. The show is Obi-Wan Kenobi. It is a Star Wars, shocking, miniseries available on Disney Plus. There are four episodes right now. I didn't look up to see how many there are. So there's going to be six in total. So we've got two left. And they're releasing weekly, I think.
Unknown I think that's right.
Andrew I did a binge and then I was like, I'm out of episodes. So very much like The Mandalorian. And Disney Plus is doing a cool thing with miniseries. Moon Knight was a miniseries, and I think they wrote that to maybe see if they could renew for a second season. Just in the way, just in the storylines they created, which I think would be cool. But, you know, you look at The Mandalorian, their Star Wars engagement is very cool. So Obi-Wan Kenobi is an interlude in the time gap between episodes three and four of Star Wars. And it tells the story of how we left. Baby. Luke and Leia. Before we meet them as adults in A New Hope. It is killer. It's this it's all of the original people from the episodes one, two and three that everyone hated. And it's like they can't be that. It's like they came back and they're like, look, people didn't like it. Let's let's try again. Let's get some more time on the screen. Let's get a little bit better writing. Let's downplay some of the oddities that we did with episodes one, two, and three. And it is phenomenal.
Everett Let's for the love of God, don't say the word midi-chlorian.
Andrew Yeah. When I saw, cause I didn't look at who was in it, but Ewan McGregor's on my screen. I was like, that looks like Ewan McGregor. He came back. Sure as shit came back and I'm seeing all these people. I'm like, oh my gosh, they got, them all back to do a much better version of it. You know, there's that. It's just newer, right? Yeah. So it's going to inherently be. More nuanced and and better than things were in 2005. It's killer. I can't recommend it enough. They do a great job. Telling you a story that you already know. in a in a really engaging way.
Everett Yeah. Yeah, I agree with you. And, you know, for a lot of this story, we don't really know what's going to happen, but it's been I think it's been really, really fun. I'm enjoying it and I'm looking forward to the next episodes.
Andrew Yeah. Well, I was explaining to Betty the timeline of it. I was like, yeah, it happens between episodes three and four. She goes, I'm not a nerd. I don't know the difference between the episodes. And I was like, Betty, number one, you are a nerd. Number two, you know exactly what I'm talking about. It's okay if you're embarrassed by it, but we know, we know that you know what I'm talking about here.
Everett Shut up. Yeah. Shut up. That's, I say that to her often. Yeah. I'm, I'm into it. I'm looking forward to it. It's really good. Yeah. It's, it's been, it's been a lot of fun. Uh, I, I do, uh, I do like most of the actors, not all of them. We can talk offline.
Andrew Yeah, I think we'll have to talk offline because I have I don't have complaints. I have some critiques that I think we can we can save for not on the air.
Everett Andrew, I've got another thing. Do me. I watched a movie last Friday.
Andrew Was it The Northman? Because that wasn't good.
Everett A, you're wrong about that. B, no, it wasn't. It was a movie with an actor named Tom Cruise.
Andrew Have you heard of this guy? Did you watch the latest Mission Impossible from two years ago?
Unknown Yes.
Everett I watched in the theater. I watched the new Top Gun. It was not on my list of movies to watch. I have lists, right? I'm like, I'm going to go see this in the theater. This was not on my list of movies to watch in the theater. My wife, however, wanted to see it. And it's not often that she's like, I want to go see this movie in the theater. So I'm happy to engage with that type of behavior. So I agreed. We went and saw it. We got a babysitter for the kids.
Unknown My house.
Everett Yeah. Your house. Uh, and I fucking loved it. It was so good. It was so well done. The plot was predictable and yet not, uh, the acting was exactly what you'd expect to be. And, and also, really engaging and good. There were all of the terrible iconic scenes that were nods to the original that you knew were going to be there because you've seen teasers. And they had to be there. And they were not bad. Everything was enjoyable and charming and over the top and stupid. Also, let's be clear. It has to be over the top and stupid, but also really good. Just really enjoyable. I loved it until the very last moment. When it ended? Of the movie, when it ended. Yeah, I loved it. I loved it from tip to tail.
Andrew How much of that is because of the nostalgia you have for... None.
Everett I don't have any nostalgia. I do not love the original Top Gun. I am not a Top Gun guy.
Andrew I don't dislike Top Gun. That explains a lot.
Everett It's not like I'm an anti Top Gun. It's just not something that ever, like, charmed me. This new version is charming and really, really good.
Andrew No, I mean, not just the nostalgia of Top Gun, but the nostalgia of that 80s movie feel.
Everett Maybe some of that, but I think they managed to capture that in a way that was good today. Because it's not the first movie that's done this type of thing.
Andrew Right.
Everett And I think that they managed to do it. It's not quite meta. It's not quite poking fun at itself, but it hits this groove. It slides into this groove of self-awareness that is, I mean, I think they nailed it. There aren't that many movies that I've seen say in the last 10 years that I was that I felt like they really nailed the tone. And I think the producers, directors of Top Gun nailed the tone. And I strongly recommend it, even if you're kind of on the fence or even if you're kind of meh. I really and and I will say, I know a lot of people, Andrew Roberts being one of them, are sort of I don't want to see a movie in the theater and I don't care if this is a theater movie I need to see in the theater. I do think that there's something about this movie that is, uh, amplified by the setting.
Andrew I intend to see it in the movie theater. This is the first time in a very long time that there's been two movies in a theater at one time that I was like, I need to see these both in theater. Top Gun and Jurassic Park. Yeah. I'd like to see that. The last movie I saw in a theater was the last Jurassic, like the most previous to this Jurassic Park. I don't go to theaters very often. I have little kids. You all who have little kids understand. You don't so much anymore because you got a little bit older kids. I went to theaters all the way through. No, we did not, but I have two movie theater movies that I have to see, which means that in like in the next couple of weeks, I have to go to the theaters twice.
Everett You should move next to someone who could watch your kids anytime you want.
Andrew We were going to go last week, but I don't remember what happened. It just didn't, it didn't pan out. Um, yeah, I'm glad you liked it. I'm excited to see it in theaters too. Andrew, what else do you got?
Everett I have nothing else. I got nothing else either, man. So thank you for joining us for this episode of 40 and 20, the Watch Clicker podcast. When you check us out online, www.watchclicker.com. I don't think I've ever said www. I actually don't know if that's true as I sit here right now. It is that. Watchclicker.com. That's where you can find all of our reviews, weekly stuff, and every single episode of this podcast you can also check us out on instagram at 40 and 20 at watch clicker we you know basically put announcements of everything we're doing and we post pretty pictures check out nick mankey designs.com for the next two days until the 18th of june to get your watch clicker 40 and 20 collab hook strap seriously guys that's a way to support us uh they're pretty cool once they're gone they're gone for forever i think it's pretty neat you should check them out And if you want to support us, otherwise you can do that patreon.com slash 40 and 20. That is how we get all the money for hosting images, audio, hardware, software, all the stuff we need to keep this operation going. And don't forget to tune back in next Thursday for another hour of watches, food, drinks, life, and other things we like.
Andrew Bye-bye.