Episode 181 - Why No Respect For Citizen?

Published on Wed, 13 Apr 2022 21:38:12 -0700

Synopsis

This podcast episode discusses the watch brands Seiko and Citizen, comparing their histories, product lines, and popularity among enthusiasts. The hosts analyze why Seiko tends to be more highly regarded by watch enthusiasts despite Citizen also producing quality timepieces and innovative technologies like the Eco-Drive movement. They examine factors such as Seiko's commitment to affordable mechanical watches during the quartz crisis era, design philosophies, and accessibility of higher-end models. The hosts also share their personal opinions on specific watch models from each brand.

In addition to watches, the hosts briefly discuss other topics like beer, yard tools, and an upcoming podcast where they will explore obscure Citizen watches from the Japanese domestic market.

Transcript

Speaker
Andrew Hello fellow watch lovers, nerds, enthusiasts, or however you identify. You're listening to 40 in 20, the Watch Clicker podcast with your hosts, Andrew and my good friend Everett. Here, we talk about watches, food, drinks, life, and other things we like. Everett, how are you?
Everett Gosh, I'm just, you wouldn't even believe how good I am. Actually, I reached into my briefcase on my way over here and stabbed my knuckle on a watch tool.
Andrew And so, yeah. So you're great is what I'm hearing.
Everett I'm great except that I stabbed my knuckle.
Andrew You know, that's okay.
Everett I'm wearing a good watch that I love. Yeah. That I can't talk about. Secret.
Andrew What do they call that? Embargoed.
Everett Embargoed. We also spend a good amount of time researching a topic for next week's episode that's also embargoed that Embargoed.
Andrew It's an embargo month for us.
Everett That we can't talk about. Yeah. Which is also kind of exciting. But we know. We know things you don't know.
Andrew Not many though. Very few. We're on a list serve.
Everett Very few.
Andrew What are you doing? The carpet pad, you need to adjust your chair because you've got it folded up. The moves you're making. The desk mat for the chair, I was trying to roll a little bit. It's not sticking to the, ah, shit. I was, I was good until just now and I've now lost control.
Everett It's the wheels have already fallen off and this is a bad night for the wheels to fall off quite so early.
Andrew They have, they have fallen off. So, um, well that's a, yeah, we have an exciting couple of weeks ahead of us.
Everett Oh my God. Yeah. Blue raspberry bud light seltzer is, that's really good. These are, these are,
Andrew I mean, we're going to get a teaser, but these are my other things we can't talk about right now.
Everett Oh, shit, shit, shit. OK, I do want some like slushy ice, though.
Andrew Yeah, I want to put these in a slushy machine.
Everett OK, we will hold it. I'm waiting. I'm holding.
Andrew Andrew, how are you? I'm good. I had, you know, one of those days of exceptional productivity where you just go and go and go and go and you're getting all these things off of your to do list done and you're feeling really good. And then you look back at what you accomplished and nothing looks different. That's the day that I had. I was feeling really good. And then I tried to like look back on what I accomplished. Not a mocho. Disappointing for how much I know I did today. But that's okay. Tomorrow is going to be a slow day. Daycare got canceled because teachers are calling out sick. So my day two of weekend productivity is going to be lost to solo parenting, which means I'm going to hang out and watch TV all day.
Everett Nice. Do you have any, uh, plans on what you're going to watch?
Andrew No.
Everett Have you considered?
Andrew I know, I know exactly what I'm going to watch.
Everett Okay. Um, we are talking about watches today. Yeah. And I think, you know, I think this is one of those topics that we thought is not enough to talk about. This is going to be a lame episode. It's not going to be long enough. I think we're probably going to be, we'll be long and I, and I think
Andrew We felt, we feel that way about a lot of episodes.
Everett Hey, listen, don't, don't, don't be pessimistic. I think we can do it.
Andrew I know we will because we started already and the record button's been hit.
Everett We can do this.
Andrew There's no way out. Uh, I think I was a little concerned that there wasn't going to be, and I think, you know, what we ultimately found out is there is no clear answer, but I'm surprised by the opinions that I, gleaned from looking at this.
Everett Why don't you set us up? What's tonight's episode?
Andrew So the question, this is a question episode that we're seeking to answer. And it's what happened to Citizen? Seiko and Citizen were founded generally the same time. Seiko 40 years earlier than Citizen. Seiko exclusively in Japan. Citizen, a Swiss-Japanese venture, and then grew up in the watch world together, survived the quartz crisis together, and took vastly different trajectories. And so the question is, why do we as watch enthusiasts hold Seiko in such high regard, and Citizen not so much?
Everett And certainly if you're at home and you're like, Oh, citizens just as good. Who has that opinion? The answer is like the majority of people. So shut up a and B you're fine. You're fine. Okay. We're not criticizing you. It's not a judgment. I think it's just almost an arguable that the watch head, the watch enthusiast, the watchinato, the watchinista, That the watch people, we like Seiko, and we maybe like Citizen less, on average, on balance.
Andrew Yeah, I think that's inarguable.
Everett And so your opening statement, what happened to Seiko, or what happened to Citizen, I think that's a little unfair, because nothing has happened to Citizen. It's still like one of the biggest watch companies in the world, and they sell almost as many watches as Seiko, blah, blah, blah. But rather, why don't we respect Citizen? Why don't we give Citizen the respect it deserves? We. I accept. The proverbial we.
Andrew As long as it's not they. They is an asshole. I don't care what they does.
Everett And I'm definitely in that camp. I don't respect Citizen.
Andrew Fuck that guy. Fuck that Citizen. Thinking about this episode, I found that I, on average, like Seiko more. There are fewer Seikos that I dislike than there are citizens that I dislike.
Everett And that's kind of where I landed. Well, that's the nice thing about both these brands is there's 10 billion SKUs to hate.
Andrew Yep.
Everett And realistically 9.99 billion of the SKUs are terrible for both.
Andrew Very bad. Very bad. I think Seiko has more likable SKUs.
Everett I think you're right.
Andrew Many more likable SKUs. And I think the in the watch world, and I think even the world at large, the brand name has greater capital. I think there's more legacy associated with Seiko than there is Citizen. And we'll get there on why I think that.
Everett Why don't we do it this way? So let's back up and let's just run through the histories. So I think it's fine because this episode is intended to be kind of citizen focused, but we've drawn it up as a comparison of Seiko and Citizen for, I hope, I hope kind of obvious reasons. So in that light, in that context, I think it makes sense to start with Seiko and just where they came from, what they did over the years. So started in 1881. by Kentaro Hattori.
Andrew I accept.
Everett S.K. Hattori. He was a watch and jewelry maker. Clock. Clock watch jewelry maker in the Japan. In the Japan. 1892 it becomes Seikosha. We're getting closer. Seikosha means literally roughly house of exquisite workmanship.
Andrew Just a bold statement.
Everett And then by 1924, I think that there was some sort of IP situation. Seiko should become Seiko, the brand we know and love today.
Andrew Yeah.
Everett And they've made a bucket load of watches, right?
Andrew Yeah. And we see them on the cutting edge of research and development in the 50s and 60s and into the 90s. You know, we see the quartz crisis spurned on by their release. We see the astron. We see the pioneering of kinetic movements. And then in the late 90s, in 99, we see the spring drive release.
Everett So 69, double 69, we've got The first auto chronograph to market. I'm sorry, that's the truth. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. The Seiko 5 Chrono, first automatic chronograph to market. And also in 69, the first quartz. We've talked about both of these advents a number of times. The Seiko Astron. You just mentioned solar technology, 77, they're in the solar game. in the 80s, 1988, the AGS or the kinetic. And then like you said, 1999 spring drift. So that's, that's sort of like the who's who of Seiko development. It ignores some of the design stuff.
Andrew Yeah. Well, and also during this time they're doing all manner of things to increase their accuracy of watches. Uh, they have the official sponsorship of the Olympics for 64, 72, 92, 94, 98, 2002. the World Cup in 78, 82, 86, and 90, and the IAAF World Championships from 1985, a contract they still hold and will until 2029 when it comes up for renegotiation.
Everett And we imagine they're gonna get it again. I can't imagine. It's one of those types of contracts.
Andrew Yeah, there just has to be some kind of stop to renegotiate and get Seiko more money, I imagine.
Everett And in that vein, they've released a watch for the 2022 World Championships being held. Just a mere, just a matter of miles walking distance from where we sit today.
Andrew Long walk though. Well, not some, not a distance you're, anyone would be comfortable walking.
Everett Well, why are you going to make it a thing? It's a walking distance, Christ almighty. It's farther than I'm going to walk. Uh, at the, at the historic, as they say, the historic Hayward Field.
Andrew Which is brand new and just been built.
Everett Which is the greatest track and field facility in the country for sure, if not the world.
Andrew But that's what we're dealing with here. We're dealing with a company who's on the cutting edge of research and development, getting their name out there with enormous sponsorships, global name and brand recognition, and wrecking the watch world with their quartz release. By the way, we're going to make something and then with this other thing we're going to make a totally absolutely what up. What up?
Everett Yeah. Do you want to walk us through the history of Citizen? Yeah.
Andrew So, Citizen. We've got, there's some conflicting opinions as to the exact year of the founding. Citizen's website says 1921, I believe. generally elsewhere, 1918. Yes, a registered company was registered in 1918.
Everett 1980, 1918. 1980. 1980. It was just, it just was a zombie from 1918 to 1980. No, 1918. It is founded as a Japanese and Swiss venture making.
Andrew Nope.
Everett Yeah, founded by a Swiss guy, wrote off Schmid.
Andrew Yeah, so Schmid, but they're operating in Switzerland, specifically to provide products to Japan. All the way through the 1930s, that's their function, Swiss watches for Japan. Yeah. 1976 we see the introduction of the eco drive And this is on the like dead heat Huh? Yeah ish, right? Yeah, but this is their their attempt to answer.
Everett Well, so importantly I'm gonna insert a thing real quick and then we'll come back to 1976. So in 1930, so they're started by Schmid Swiss watch dude in 1918 in 1930 Citizen gets purchased by Japanese by a Japanese investor group So that's important. So yes. First part of their first part of their life. They're a Swiss company by 1930. They're purchased by a group of Japanese investors and then held as a Japanese company from then on.
Andrew Swiss made them. Right. That's the whole thing is some of them were made.
Everett They mostly moved their production to Japan in the 30s increasingly in the 30s and then almost entirely.
Andrew So. 1976 introduction of the Eco Drive. just trying to answer the courts crisis. And they, this, we're seeing this pioneering of solar technology and watches.
Everett And called the Criston at the time. So eco drives, no, not yet a thing, but this is the predecessor, certainly the, the soul of eco drive introduced in 76, a year before Seiko.
Andrew The, the origin story, if you will. And eco drive becomes their focus. They're still making, courts, they're still making automatic and mechanical movements, but eco drive really becomes the heart and soul of their watches. And that's they're driving momentum for the next ever. I mean, we seen currently they're trying to make a shift back to a big name brand affiliations. They partnered with Disney in 2018 to start doing all of their collaborations. They, in the 2000s, they also started acquiring more brands. And I think this is a big, this is really one of the big differences between Seiko and Citizen. Seiko is, we're going to call it a standalone watch company. They have Loris and Pulsar, their white label stuff. They've got Grand Seiko, but we're going to call it, in the watch segment, a standalone, right? Yeah, not really a conglomerate. Because Seiko as a conglomerate is a conglomerate. They make like furnitures and calculators and computers and shit. So does Citizen. But Citizen also requires Bulova, Alpina, Frédérique Constant, Les Joues Parais, other meaningful watch brands. And that's how they're spreading their fingers out into the world that way, rather than the way Seiko has been doing it with enormous sponsorships, because citizen sponsorship list is pretty short. They were the official sponsor of the US Open from 93 to 2017, which is significant, especially when you consider the Tag Heuer The Rolex kind of feel within golf sponsorships. Uh, and then the Toronto Maple Leafs because of course, Manchester United football club and the ISU world skating championships. And that's their sponsorship list. Some pretty low level sponsorships. I imagine besides the U S open. aren't getting a lot of people buying watches.
Everett Yeah. You don't think the world's getting to, uh, yeah. Yeah. So a few, I just thought I'd highlight a few other things that I read about history. So first I want to say, if you go to citizens website to the history section, they basically skip from 1924 to like 2009 ish. Yeah. 1995 I think is where they skip forward. So, um, but they do have some other notable stuff. So in the 50s, Citizen sort of starts the Japanese dive watch game with the first Japanese waterproof watch. And all waterproof, yep. Called the ParaWater. It's an interesting, I think it's a pretty interesting watch. 76, like you said, the EcoDrive is debuted as the Cryston, but they're really sort of pushing the tech on EcoDrive, right? And it's not until the 90s where they finalized that by way of advancements in lithium technology. So they're sort of early adopters of technology in that space, which is why eco drive becomes the standard that it is today. Um, 2010 UHF two 62, which is just a crazy cool Boliva movement. What we think of as a Boliva movement, Miyota movement, but obviously made by citizen. Um, Yeah. And then, you know, I think today they've got like the zero 100 eco drive, most accurate movement in the world. So they're still doing things through this time, but it just feels like they're the type of things that are less sort of splashy.
Andrew Yeah. And they're almost in a vacuum, almost independent of what the, what's happening in the world around them. They're, they're innovating their technology. They're not pioneering new technology. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's super accurate. And we're seeing some really cool stuff from them in the modern, in the way of the new hyper-accurate eco-drives. They're doing really cool super-titanium stuff. I mean, they're still improving their own technology, though.
Everett Yeah, in subtle ways that are maybe hard to put a finger on. I mean, I think it's fair to say that in terms of quartz technology, Citizen is king shit when it comes to accuracy, right? Yeah. The 0100, the 0200, these new movements are mechanical movements, right? Oh, no, ecodrive movements, excuse me. And 0100 is ecodrive, 0200 is the mechanical. We just talked about this.
Andrew I don't remember which order. One of them is mechanical, one of them's ecodrive.
Everett And these movements are They're nuts. They're super nuts. You know, everybody talks about the launching VHP, but you know, Citizen Chronomaster slash The Citizen has been plus or minus five seconds a day for years, which is more accurate. So, you know, we've talked about this a lot, sort of diminishing returns, but you're right. Citizen's sort of the company that is eking out incremental returns. that has made them the leader in certain regards, certainly accuracy. Incremental returns is, we're the boss with these incremental, we're the king shit with these.
Andrew And you're not gonna be able to beat us. Any other watch brand could start working on it now and would never be able to catch up to or surpass their abilities.
Everett Yeah.
Andrew The institutional knowledge associated with it is just, So can, can we start talking about some, now that we have them in parallel, can I, can I mention what I think my biggest difference is? Yeah, tell me. I think Citizen has defined itself by way of the EcoDrive being a cool piece of technology. I think Citizen, and you know, we look back at their dive watch, pioneering the first waterproof watch, and it's not obviously actually waterproof, but it was the first purpose built dive watch in Japan. They've defined themselves as a gadget watch brand. And I think that's where watch enthusiasts see Citizen fall behind Seiko. Seiko's got a lot of gadget watches. But Seiko also has buckets of really clean, really refined non-gadget watches. Citizen has buckets of gadgeted-out, cool-as-fuck tool watches and a little smattering of classic, simple, elegant watches. And I think we as watch enthusiasts, we like tool watches. We bitch and moan when a brand has three dressy watches and no tool watch. But we just don't want the density of tool watches. If Citizen just had the Nighthawk and then the rest of their lineup, I think that they would be in the watch enthusiast size right on par with Seiko.
Everett It's interesting. I think you're on to something. And there's some assumptions that I probably held loosely that I kind of want to, as I sit here, explore a little bit. So I wrote down some watches from both models. And I thought, I'll just bring these up, some models from both brands. And I thought, I'll just bring these up, and I'll just say them real quick, and then we can come back. what I did was just kind of from memory, phone down, write down the watches from, from these companies that I can think of. So for Seiko, obviously SNK, SKX, got the Arnie slash Tuna, Marine Master 300, Saab, Alpinist, Samurai Monster, Grand Seiko, Snowflake, King Seiko, a little bit older. The Turtle. These are just the ones that I... The Cocktail Time. The Cocktail Time. So these are just the watches that I kind of like, from my gut, was like, okay, what do I know of? And then I did the same thing for Citizen, and here's what I came up with. The Fugu, which it bears to mention, I think that the Fubu, Fubu? Fugu.
Andrew Fugu, yeah. Fugu is different.
Everett For us, Gaius. Yeah. The Fugu, which is, I believe, the longest production ISO certified watch of all watches. ISO certified dive watch. I don't think that there's another ISO certified dive watch that's been in production consistently as long as the Fugu. The Citizen slash Chronomaster. The Promaster EcoDrive. The BM8180 like, which is their like field watch and then the Aqualand. So those are the watches, the hypey watches that I just could think of from the gut. And I'm sure that there's more, right? There's tons, but those are the ones that like are deep seated in my conscious. Um, and you know, one, one of those lists is about twice as big as the other. And, and it's not even if I had spent any more time, I could have come up with two times as many Seiko's.
Andrew And maybe five more Citizens?
Everett Perhaps. Maybe. Maybe. If I really, really worked at it. Yeah. And you know, I'm skipping a lot of watches. I'm skipping watches that I don't care about. But I think the deal is Seiko's got more hypey watches.
Andrew I think they do a better job in the American market too. Citizen USA is not nearly as robust as Seiko USA.
Everett I don't think that's true. So I think, and here's why, I think that the average consumer, so we're special, right? We're broken. I think that the average consumer, let's say someone who wants a $300 watch, the average consumer I do not think is able to make a meaningful, I like it, citizen and Seiko. And to the extent they could, I bet that if you poll people who know nothing about watches, adult men, say 20 to 40 years old, not trying to be, not trying to, I'm just trying to limit the sample size here. Yeah. Adult men, 20 to 40, I bet if you polled them, generally speaking, citizen would be just slightly more well liked than Seiko. You think so? I do.
Andrew If I had to guess. I mean, I'm imagining that person who's going to buy a watch who knows nothing about watches going to the Fred Meyer Jewelers or the Kroger Jeweler counter or Macy's counter and they see Citizen and Seiko side by side. I think generally people going to that counter are going to tend towards a slightly more conservative watch and are not going to find that necessarily in Citizen. They're going to find it in Seiko, in droves, especially those counters. They're going to find Corsos and Chandlers and all manner of, you know, their smaller sport options, but they're going to find it in Bolova too. And that's, I think, I think if you pull the umbrella of Citizen in, I think Citizen absolutely gets the edge over Seiko.
Everett Well, so, you know, in terms of, in terms of sales numbers, they sell almost exactly the same amount. I think it's like two and a half billion, um, a piece annually. Right? So these companies are, are separated by a razor's edge in terms of market segment. So, so there's no question that they're both juggernauts, right? And so I think the thing we're talking about is maybe impossible to prove. But that's my, that's my field that the average mall consumer, just call them the mall consumer.
Andrew Yeah.
Everett The average mall consumer is either doesn't feel like there's a difference or probably lean citizen.
Andrew Why don't we then as watch enthusiasts? I have a theory. Do me. And I'm going to throw it out there.
Everett I think that Seiko as a brand, Seiko's reliance on the, not reliance, their commitment to entry-level mechanical watches through the doldrums of the 80s and 90s has earned them the spot that they have with enthusiasts today because everybody who gets into watches at some point either flirts or just straight on dives on in to the mechanical watch as the watch enthusiast watch, the movement of choice. And then we later decide, well, quartz is okay, which we all do. Um, but when you're in those first few years, the thing that separates a good watch from a bad watch, is a mechanical movement often, right? Not for everybody, but for many people, that is the thing that is the defining characteristic of watch. Seiko as a brand committed to the mechanical movement through the eighties and nineties when nobody was making entry-level mechanical watches in a way, in a way that Citizen just didn't. Obviously Citizen had their watches, you know, there's a few other companies that had watches. But Seiko is the answer for an entry-level quartz in the late 90s. I want, or not quartz, mechanical. In the late 90s, if you want an entry-level mechanical watch, it's Seiko.
Andrew So it's nostalgia?
Everett I don't think it's nostalgia. I think it was availability.
Andrew No, no, no. I think our opinion of it now is the nostalgia. Because everyone... Maybe learned behaviors. The collective brain power of watch collecting. It's pretty old, right? There's a lot of it, but in the modern era, everyone buys an SNK or an SKX because they're affordable. They're one of, they're two of the most common first mechanical movements. Is it a nostalgia thing?
Everett I mean... I don't think so. I think it's a reality thing, right? I want an entry-level, legit field watch.
Andrew Yeah.
Everett I want to spend a hundred bucks. You have some choices, right? And you have more choices now than you did in 2015 when we started doing this. But in 2015, it's like SNK, BM-8180. Those are your choices. One of them's automatic, one of them's quartz. I want an entry-level dive watch. Well, you can either get a SKX or you can get a Promaster. And for me, the Fugu, I wasn't even aware of it until much later. You know, obviously Orient Mako was in that game too, right?
Andrew Yeah, we're talking about Citizen and Seiko right now.
Everett That's right. As between the two, those are your choices. I can get this eco-drive quartz thing that's just a watch that anybody could get because it's quartz, or I can get this makes me cooler mechanical option from Seiko. You know, I think that that's what happens. I think that that's what happens. In some respects, I would say Orient gets a little bit more love, especially from the entry-level enthusiasts than Citizen does, even though their watches are priced very similar. Similarly, the entry-level watches. Orient gets the nod in places where Citizen doesn't because of Mechanical.
Andrew And because of Seiko. Because of the relationship with Seiko. That's right.
Everett Yeah, I think you're right.
Andrew The Mechanical movement, but the relationship with Seiko, I think, gives Orient some credibility that if it were standalone, it might not. And the irony of all this... And it certainly wouldn't if it were a subsidiary of Citizen.
Everett The irony of all this is the 7S4R movement is inferior in almost every single way to the 9000, and in many ways to the 8000. Yeah. Right? Miota is the boss at entry-level mechanical movements. Yeah. You've got the Swiss shit, you've got Seiko, and then in a perfect, in a perfect marriage of the best parts of both of those, You've got Citizen. The Citizen 9000, you know, I've said it a hundred times, my favorite entry-level movement. There's just nothing that compares to it, I don't think. I like it better than an SW. I like it better than an ETA because it's cheaper. And you can get it. I like it better than an NH or a 7S or whatever because it's not hockey puck thick, right? It is a wonderful movement. Microbrand brands have been using it for ages. It's reliable. You know, you don't have any sort of, you don't have any sort of weird or overly prevalent defects or defaults. I mean, it's just, it's the king shit. It's not what Citizen, the brand, was doing though.
Andrew Do you think people would be upset if they realized that Citizen was producing was filling the majority of micro brands well, I mean like not watch enthusiasts because everyone knows that but it's it's weird to think that citizen is So tied up in so many things yeah max busser uses uses a Miyota movement in his mad one watch right yeah Citizen is in that it got their fingers in it in all of it In a way that I think Seiko does not. And I think something that Citizen has done that supports some of our early watch collecting notions of Citizen Sucks is they have an extensive fashion line.
Everett Yeah, and so does Seiko.
Andrew I think different than Seiko, there is A lot. There's a lot of ugly Seikos. There are a lot more gnarly, ugly citizens. Why? Why? Who buys that? And why did you buy that? Kind of watches.
Everett Yeah, I don't disagree. It likes citizens sort of leans Invicta.
Andrew Yeah. Yeah. They're they're almost following Invicta and Movado and like, oh, those are cool. They're not. I think it is to the detriment of how cool the eco-drive movement is. And all of the effort they're putting into the actual, like, urology side of the company, that they're also doing watches in line with Fossil and Michael Kors. Except that they put an eco-drive movement in it, which makes it dope.
Everett It's oddity. it's a fair criticism, right? But, but arguably, you know, as between them and you, Seiko, Seiko does the same exact shit. So, so just kind of running through the product lines, the most prevalent product lines, cause they kind of match up, I think like one-to-one almost. So the, the big differences are I think in grade and with the entry level options. So Seiko's got the Seiko five sports line, I don't think that Citizen has anything comparable. Citizen has watches that might fall into that category, particularly in Japan, but Seiko 5 Sports is sort of unique in watches, and I think that that sort of puts a point on the earlier point that we discussed, which is that entry-level automatics is maybe one of the linchpins here. But then you move up the line and it's sort of one-to-one, right? We've got the Prospex, you've got Promaster, we've got, you know, Presage, which I guess Citizen's all kind of Presage-ish as is Seiko. You've got the Astron, you've got Satellite Wave. You've got Grand Seiko and On Citizen's side, you've got The Citizen slash Chronomaster lines, although one of those is more developed than the other. You've got Seiko Solar, you've got EcoDrive. One of those is more developed than the other. Yeah.
Andrew I think there's a generally lacking upmarket. I mean, The Citizen exists, but not within the same density. It's just not nearly as robust as Grand Seiko. Grand Seiko is a bit of a standalone from Seiko, but hasn't always been.
Everett Yeah, just recently.
Andrew Yeah. Hasn't always been. And that's, it's not to say that Citizen is lacking in upmarket watches. They just don't have a clear delineation. I mean, that new titanium super accurate's what, 15,000?
Everett Oh, you mean money? Yeah. Yeah, they're expensive. And they only made like... Six. Yeah. Or something. That's right. They didn't make very many of them.
Andrew There's not upmarket accessibility at Citizen. That's right. Which is maybe, I mean, to the detriment, to the reinforcement of Citizen's better, or Seiko's better than Citizen, because they don't have anything accessible in the luxury realm.
Everett Well, like their Chronomaster, they've been making the Chronomaster, the Citizen line for years, decades, I think. But that watch has always been focused on the JDM market. There's not only is there no focus in the U.S., it's really hard to get. I know Aggressive Timing Habits either has or had one at one point, and it's like, you know, super cool watch. You can get them, but you got to know, A, you got to know about it, and B, you got to go find them. But if you want a super accurate quartz movement that's built like a freaking Grand Seiko, I mean, A, you could buy a Grand Seiko, or B, you could buy a Chronomaster and Heck yeah.
Andrew It's just not accessible.
Everett Just heck yeah.
Andrew Yeah. It's easier to get a Grand Seiko. Right. You can buy it and have it shipped to you with like through one vendor. I think if you're going to buy a Chronomaster, you might have to use a broker.
Everett Yeah, perhaps. Actually, that Yahoo Auctions Japan, I think, uh, I think we should do an, that, that should be an episode. I'm going to pitch an episode live on the air. Okay. We need to find citizen watches via Yahoo Auctions Japan that we had never heard of and talk about them on the show.
Andrew I think we'd find them quick.
Everett Yeah. Well, that's what I'm saying.
Andrew That's an easy episode. That's what I want. Low lift. Yeah. Their JDM market is very robust. Yeah. It's just not the same here. I want the JDM stuff.
Everett Give me that JDM.
Andrew And what's, I mean, we've talked about JDM before. With the amount of e-commerce and globalization, there is no sense in JDM products anymore.
Everett You know, I think it's a cultural thing. Uh, you know, Japan has a history of being an isolationist country, right? So it's an island. What? You know, so geographically, there's this divide, there's a physical divide by way of water. But then also culturally, right? There's this culture of sort of isolationism in Japan. I think that the JDM market is a modern continuation of that. It's more subtle, but I think that that is just partially the culture. If I had to guess, and I am not an expert in Japanese culture, so I'm guessing 100% with absolutely no knowledge to back that up.
Andrew I think it's a dig at Americans. They wouldn't like this. We're not going to bother selling it to them. They wouldn't understand it.
Everett Perhaps. You going to make it?
Andrew Yeah, I'm just going to.
Everett Andrew is slowly opening a corked beer. Yeah. You opened that so it didn't make any noise. Yeah. Most of the time you put the tab as close to the microphone as you can.
Andrew Well, this I also didn't want to blow up.
Everett Yeah, fair enough. So there's a brewery. We've talked about it on the show before, I think.
Andrew I'm sure we have.
Everett Alesong, which is local to Eugene, but they make really good sort of naturally yeasted farm style ales.
Andrew They're somewhere between a vineyard and a brewery. Yeah, that's right. In their flavor profiles and in their brewing habits and development.
Everett Really developed sours and farmhouses and they make You know just some of the best most delightful beer you'll ever have in your life, and he under is drinking one.
Andrew I'm a little Jelly, you should be I'm drinking a sour ale aged in the French oak folders with Mirabelle plums It's legit let me get a sip let me get a sip Peru I'm gonna give you out of the glass so you don't get the the yeast popping He's breaking keto right now for this. It's real good. Yeah.
Everett Good temperature too. It's not too cold. Uh, so yeah, that's delightful. That's delightful. So should we sum up? Are we there yet?
Andrew I want to side by side, uh, two pairs. Let's do it. So, um, you know, we've talked about some comparisons, some pull things top of mind. I grabbed, I know that watch.
Everett I don't love that watch. I'm sorry. I think it's the lug width.
Andrew Yeah, it's a little bit weird dimensions, but it's a classically styled, attractive dress sport.
Everett Sort of octagonal-ish. A little bit, yeah.
Andrew Up against the Dress KX, the SRPE55K1. $189 on Amazon right now, by the way. Using a 4R. 105? 189. Okay. Like I'm buying another one. 4R36 movement, 40 by 20 dimensions. Hardlex crystal on a bracelet, 100 meters of water resistance. The true difference here is, you know, design, right? Geometry. The Corso is $70 more. Eco drive. But I mean, these are very comparable watches. Next is going to be the... Do you want to say something?
Everett Well, yeah. You know, I think it's an interesting pitting of the two. I mean, why did you pick the... So the DressKX, I think, is an obvious choice. Why did you pick the Corso to go up head to head?
Andrew It is the dress sport that they offer on a bracelet that I like the most. In their modern line? Yeah, in the modern line. vintage Seikos from the 50s and 60s range from like 80 to 200 bucks in running condition and they are fire. I might, or not vintage Seikos, vintage Citizens. I might start buying vintage Citizens. Yeah.
Everett I think that's a game right there. Vintage Citizen. There's some shit there.
Andrew There's some fire and there's some really good vintage Citizen Digitals. Yeah. Yeah. I might've, I might've sparked a problem. So next I chose my favorite diver from the affordable Citizen collection in the Promaster. It's the BN0191-55C. It's the steel, the blue bezel. This is your basic B Promaster dive watch. Not the monster, not the monster diver. Not the 48mm. Yeah, and not the one that has like a 90mm bezel and an 8mm dial. Just your run of the mill, classically styled Pro spec dive watch, ISO certified. One thing that I don't, can't fully wrap my head around is the differentiation of movements that Citizen offers. Every watch has a different movement. I don't know if they're just different sizes. I mean, there's tiers, but this is rocking an E168, 45 millimeters with 22 millimeter lugs, mineral crystal, 200 meters of water resistance, and on a bracelet, 316 bucks. pitted against the SRPE89K1 Seiko Turtle with a 4R35 movement, 42 by 20, hardlex, 200 meters of water resistance on a bracelet for $309. And again, the difference here, I think, in a purchasing decision is do I want spec... they're almost identical. Geometry is a little different. six dollars apart. What it comes down to is, do I want an eco drive or an automatic? At least for me, they're very similar. And I, you know, the turtle has all this legacy associated with it. And I think we hold the turtle in a special place in our hearts. So I think most people choose a turtle. Most watch people choose a turtle for that reason. But this comparison is what makes me a little bit inclined to agree with your position that citizens actually holds the edge on the Macy's counter guy.
Everett Yeah. You know, I, I'll say one more thing about this because these are watches you've picked because of their similarity in the market, right? So the Corsos, um, quite a bit more expensive than the dress KX as between the pro master and the turtle, the price is very similar. Um, I don't know about the Corso build quality. I don't mean I'm, because I've never handled one, but I know as between the Turtle and the ProMaster Diver, it is, in my mind, almost no competition. The Turtle, the fit and finish on the Turtle is better. So, you know, with Seiko, you've got like alignment issues and whatnot, but in terms of metal finishing... Which Seiko is known for. Seiko kicks the shit out of Citizen. So that's another thing to consider, right, is that Seiko's entry-level watches, we'll say, the fit and finish is really pretty decent. For $150, oftentimes, you're getting a pretty well-finished watch. That Dress KX, the finish on it is great, right? You've got some fitment issues, you've got some alignment issues, but generally speaking, it's a great fit. So you've got automatic, you've got slightly better finishing, IMO, But yeah, do you want a quartz movement? And if so, maybe do the citizen.
Andrew And it's not just a regular quartz movement. It's eco drive and it's the coolest movement on the market. Yeah. I'm all out of things, man.
Everett So I wanted to say one more thing cause there is one other thing about citizen. I found I wrote it down here somewhere, but now I'm not seeing it. Um, The Miota 2035, it's a courts movement, standard courts movement. It's not an eco drive. I believe that the Miota 2035 is the most prevalent movement of all time. So like two and a half to 3 billion units in existence, you know, to 2035. So that's not citizen per se. Um, but yeah, right. They're in that game. That's the only other thing I have to say about that. That's all I have to say about that.
Andrew We didn't answer the question.
Everett I have, I know what the answer is, I think, and I'm confident with it.
Andrew I'm comfortable with how I feel about Citizen though.
Everett Yeah. Yeah, me too. Psycho's better. And people like them because they're automatic. Yeah. And also I got love for Citizen. And also I want a Chronomaster.
Andrew Yeah. I want a Pearlmaster Diver.
Everett Or a Citizen Homer. Look up a Citizen Homer.
Andrew Oh yeah. I was looking at one of the, a vintage one while we were talking, while we were researching this.
Everett Andrew, my friend. Other things. I know the answer. What do you got?
Andrew I got the loudest flavors ever. So I used to work for Anheuser-Busch.
Everett True story.
Andrew My neighbor still does. Not you, but my direct neighbor. I used to work with him.
Everett We both get free beer from him on the regular.
Andrew On the regular. And he brought over, and I've been seeing signage for the Bud Light seltzers, the retro tie-dye pack. And he brought over a 12 pack of them. I've been exposed to seltzers primarily because of Everett's dietary restrictions that are imposed on me when we drink beer together.
Everett My occasional, I've gained 20 pounds. I'm fucked.
Andrew I'm doing keto. Twice a year or once a year protracted beer-less period. And I like, I open another 5% alcohol, a hundred calories. Like just, I was like, eh, whatever. I'll, I'll crack one of these open. Which one did you crack first? I cracked the first one I could reach, which was the blue raspberry. And I was like, I wonder what blue raspberry seltzer tastes like. Whatever. I opened it. Sounded like a beer when I opened it. I tasted it and I there was no more animosity for our seltzer drinking when we record. Imagine Blue Icy.
Everett Slush Puppy.
Andrew It, I was shocked by how good it was. These are terrific. I'm not usually, I'm not gonna be one to like gush over seltzers. The flavors on these are terrific. They're drinking, they're icies. That's all they are. They copy the icy flavor profile. They put it in a can and they made a liquid.
Everett This thing tastes like a blue, a blue raspberry slush puppy. That's what it tastes like.
Andrew It's exactly what it is. The twisted berry tastes red and the cherry limeade tastes like red. Also like, like citrusy red, like the graveyard slush puppy. Yeah. This shit is Kool-Aid flavored seltzer. Mm. It's delicious. So if, if you walk by it and you're like, for some reason burned out on white claws or something, or you just want something to delicious to drink and never be able to get drunk drinking, this could be it.
Everett Yeah. I mean, I don't think I'll ever have, I don't think I'll ever have a white claw again. No.
Andrew So I do get the sense these are only going to be available for the summer. A hundred calories, two grams of carbs.
Everett Nothing else. Yeah. And booze. 5% booze.
Andrew Yeah. I'm, I'm very pleased with, with this drop off. Phenomenal. Yeah. So that's my other thing. I got, I thoroughly enjoyed drinking them this week and I saved some just for you. Thank you, sir. You're welcome. You owe me.
Everett Yeah, I do. I do owe you. Uh, what you got? I've got another thing.
Andrew Do me.
Everett For my promise last week. This is my followup to the yard work episode. I'm working on, I'm working on a third one. I'm working on version three of this, but first version two. So if you remember my Gomboy fanboy, I am now a Gomboy fanboy because the Gomboy silky Gomboy saw is totally awesome. So sexual, very sus. Uh, I also, needed some pruners, some hand pruners. And, you know, I'm going to find the best one, right? I'm going to research, find the best one. And there's a couple of options. So everybody knows the company Corona for the beers because they make affordable, affordable tools garden tools that are available in most farm stores certainly Home Depot Lowe's they're cheap 17 18 bucks for a pair of corona trimmers uh and they're and they're good they're good there's nothing wrong with them they're they're good but they're crappy the blades are not great they're not super sharp they will work but they're not They're not very good. And for just a little bit more, you get to the next tier. But you got to look for them a little bit. And there's two brands that I became acquainted with. So the first is Felco. Felco is a Swiss company. They make extremely nice shit. They're very, very, very respected. And the Felco 2 pruners are probably the most popular pruner in the world. So it's a really obvious choice, right? Get the Felco tube runners. Yeah. However, on point for tonight's episode is a Japanese brand. You probably haven't heard of them because they're a tiny little company. And they do really limited runs. They make a product that's a little hard to find, whose price fluctuates wildly, but the company is ARS. And the product I'm going to talk about specifically tonight is the HP-VS8Z Signature Heavy Duty Printer. So I have put my hands on some Felcos, the Felco 2. They're really nice. But the main complaint to those is that the blades, which can be very sharp, do not have the most durable edge. And so You gotta sharpen them, you gotta sharpen them often. The ARS blades are a little bit more durable steel, also very, very, very sharp. You're not wearing any band-aids, I notice. But probably gonna stay sharp a little longer. So I took the flyer, I got these Japanese ones, which are presently about $10 cheaper than the Felcos. That helps, it's not a big deal. We're talking about 50 versus 40 bucks. So for 40 bucks, about the ARS. I got them, I've done all my pruning things. I've cut hundreds of branches with these things at this point. And oh my goodness, they're so good.
Andrew I will second the hundreds of branches. You pruned what, like nine rhododendrons?
Everett I pruned nine rhododendrons. I pruned all of the remaining, yes, I've cut hundreds of branches with these things. They made, they did, and you know, the Coronas would have done this too, right? But the process is so enjoyable. All these pruners have a locking mechanism. The locking mechanism on the ARS is one-handed. It is like a wedge clip situation. You'll have to check it out, but you set it with your thumb to lock it, and you just squeeze them, and it springs out to unlock them. It's genius. The engineering is really fun. I don't know what else to say. They're pruners, right? They're pruners. They're beautiful, they're comfortable, and they work really, really fucking well.
Andrew And perfectly in line with, I'm going to research the shit out of this totally easy to find product.
Everett That's right. I'm either going to go to Coastal and buy a $15 pair of Coronas or I'm going to get Some obscure, never-heard-of brand, Japanese. For three times as much. Dope-engineered.
Andrew And like it ten times more.
Everett That's right. That's right. That's my other thing. That's my other thing. We are right at an hour. We did it. Andrew, is there anything else you want to add? I am all out of things. I'm just going to go straight into it, you guys. Listen, I'm just going to play the music. Thanks for joining us for this episode of 40 in 20, The Watch Clicker Podcast. Check us out at the website. That is WatchClicker.com. You can also check us out on Instagram at 40 and 20 at WatchClicker, but really just go to the dang website every dang day. We're putting up new material. We've got some new writers. We've got some people joining the fold, some fun articles. Check out the World Timer article that just came out today, although it'll be a few days for you. Yeah. If you want to support us, you can do that at Patreon.com slash 40 and 20. That's where we get all the money we need for hosting. Again, hosting, that's something nobody thinks about. It is expensive. Also, occasionally we're going to buy some like microphones, wires.
Andrew I chew on the microphone wires.
Everett And don't forget to check us out next Thursday for another hour of watches, food, drinks, life, and other things we like. Buh-bye.