Episode 155 - The Issues with Reissues

Published on Wed, 13 Oct 2021 22:42:19 -0700

Synopsis

The podcast discusses issues and debates around vintage watch reissues. The hosts explore what constitutes an appropriate reissue, whether brands should change certain aspects like size, materials, or design elements, and the pitfalls brands can fall into with poor reissue decisions. They analyze specific examples of reissues done well and poorly by brands like Timex, Bulova, and Seiko. The conversation touches on the broader reissue trend in the watch industry and whether there are too many reissues being produced.

Transcript

Speaker
Andrew Hello fellow watch lovers, nerds, enthusiasts, or however you identify. You're listening to 40 and 20, the Watch Clicker podcast with your host, Andrew. I'm a good friend, Everett. Here, we talk about watches, food, drinks, life, and other things we like. Everett, how are you?
Everett I'm good. I feel like I came off the pot particularly well this week.
Andrew Yeah?
Everett Yeah. I felt like it was super smooth. I got that first, you know, I got that first pull and then you slow it down a little bit. I'm still in it. Still in it. And climax. Uh, they probably haven't heard it for about 10 seconds. Uh, we could hear it. Yeah, we could hear it. I'm really, I'm really good, man. It's been, uh, kind of an active week at work. So that's always like, I think it sort of gets my general temperament up. I anticipate just like being real salty as you like to say, uh, tonight.
Andrew I like them salty.
Everett Yeah. Yeah, no, I think, you know, when you get sort of like ramped up for battle, as it were, as a litigator, at least your body goes into like a fight or flight mechanic. So like, I'm just super ready to be like, nope.
Andrew So should we expect to hear an objection tonight?
Everett Objection? No, I don't think so, but maybe.
Andrew We'll see. We'll see. I've come locked and loaded with some of the most asinine positions that I'm willing to die on these hills, though I don't agree with them.
Everett I appreciate that. Andrew, Andrew, how are you?
Andrew I'm good. We're in the throes of weekend. I got... It's Tuesday. For me. So I'm good. I'm, you know, I'm coming on the tail end of weekend, but I got Tony Hawk Pro Skater 1 and 2, the remastered editions for X You could certainly beat me. I did the free play because it was still installing. And I was like, oh man, I used to be good at this. And what the fuck?
Everett I wonder if I'm going to have that same experience. You will have that same experience. I have not played Tony Hawk since Bright 2003. That's about, I mean, that's neighborhood of probably the last time I played it. I still feel like I could do it. I feel like that muscle memory was just like.
Andrew It comes back quick. It was deep. It comes back. But those first three minutes you're like, I don't get this. And it looks good too. So that's the problem. Like you remember Tony Hawk being this box on a box, it looks good. So I'm very much looking forward to hearing that music again so that I can return to the couch.
Everett Is it the same soundtracks?
Andrew It's appeared so. When my kids are in bed, I basically don't have volume. I watch TV with subtitles. Although I think the headphones I just got will connect to my Xbox. Oh yeah, I think they should, yeah. So maybe I'll do that. Oh man, I was gonna jam. I might not go to bed tonight.
Everett Don't your, uh, don't your controllers have a headphone jack?
Andrew Yeah, but they don't work for all headphones.
Everett You could just take the Sony, the MDRs down and plug them in.
Andrew They don't work for all headphones. I haven't tried these, but, uh, I've tried a couple of different headphone sets. You get really that full soundstage. You get feedback. on the ones that I've tried. They just didn't make a good connection. And I'm not going to be bullied into buying Xbox-specific controller headphones.
Everett Because you're not like doing the online play or whatever.
Andrew No, I'm not good enough for that. And I also don't want to hear those people.
Everett Yeah. You know, I had an Xbox headset back in the day. I can't remember what machine it was. Call of Duty Modern Warfare when I was playing online. I had an Xbox headset, but I don't think it was expensive. I think it was like. 50 bucks or something.
Andrew I wouldn't be bullied for $10 if it was like if it's a closed ecosystem and in order to enjoy it fully, you have to buy that and I don't need it. I'm not going to buy your thing. Yeah, just on principle.
Everett Well, well, so I think that they've gotten like. One at least one, if not two free other things this week, so maybe. Cause we are talking about watches.
Andrew Yeah, but let's just hit the music.
Everett We got things to do. Well, so we, we had a guest scheduled for this week.
Andrew Yeah, I know. Thanks a lot Mike for showing us up.
Everett Up until what, what yesterday we, this was a guest show. So we, I think we've done really well in terms of topic, but we, we sort of had to access the, the topic bank and kind of scrap one together.
Andrew Yeah. All because of Mike.
Everett Do you think it was because of Mike?
Andrew I think so. If he decided to be here tonight, then.
Everett Oh, he would have been a guest. Yeah, that's for sure. Yeah. Anyway, I guess somebody got some guests coming up, some interesting guests coming up here in the next few weeks. But as for this week, it's just the two of us. Sorry, y'all. We can make it if we try.
Andrew No, this is this is dead in the water.
Everett So we're talking about vintage reissue watches, specifically the issues with reissues. Yes. And there are many. And while this topic, I'm going to give you credit because this is your topic and I think it's an excellent one. And I was really pumped, uh, when you, when you presented it, but, um, I'm going to take full credit for the title. Oh, I am. Cause you, you sort of like, Got close, but I am the one. I really made it happen.
Andrew Are you sure I didn't text you issues with reissues?
Everett Something. You did something exactly like that. Yeah. But I'm the one who actually. You had the. I made it sing.
Andrew Yeah.
Everett OK. Yeah. I feel actually OK with this. I feel OK with this. I have no reservations.
Andrew That's OK. So that's our topic today. The issues with reissues. And we've got some loosely laid out ideas that we want to talk about. But I think this is a huge and really convoluted and really personal topic. Because we posed it to the group text and it was bedlam. Just pure chaos. Ultimately we came down to reissues are cool unless they're not. They're not cool unless they are. Never fuck with the size, unless you need to fuck with the size. Fix the innards, unless you don't need to. And if you don't fix the innards, you're lazy. Never change the colors, but offer new and updated colors.
Everett Don't screw with materials, unless you do. Or don't, unless you should. Unless you should, yeah. That is a really clean set of rules, as far as rules go.
Andrew And I think that that kind of hits the nail on the head for the reissue game, which I think is maybe too big right now.
Everett Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that, I think that's right. Andrew, uh, other things go.
Andrew Okay. So I'm, we all love reissues.
Everett Yeah, I think so. I love a re, I love a good reissue.
Andrew I think there are just as many bad reissues as good reissues. And I also think there are just as many bad new releases as there are good new releases.
Everett You know, on that note, on that note, because that's actually a nothing statement. And so I'm going to turn it into a something statement. I, in prepping for this episode, I attempted to, yeah, I called it a nothing statement. It's not a nothing statement because you interrupted me. Um, I Googled a number of combinations of bad vintage reissue watches. I think I Googled terrible, worst, you know, a number of like negative pejorative words in conjunction with vintage reissue watches. And, and they don't exist. Those articles, those links don't exist. You know, on each of those, I got four or five pages deep with no real positive search results. And when I say positive, I mean negative, you know, I think that that is, I think that that's reflective of a couple of things. One, watch media is largely click bait. Positive sale through, yeah. Listicle affiliate marketing driven. And to the extent that it's not that, it's people aping that because they think that that's what successful websites should look like. And furthermore, when I did find negative feedback regarding vintage reissue watches. It was always, I think, really petty, silly, unintellectual. You know, there's a pretty good YouTuber, a YouTuber I like, I'm not going to say his name for obvious reasons, but he's got, he's one, if you search this stuff, one of this fellow's videos will come up and it's just this hot take about how Seiko is making a huge mistake. Well, You know, with one of their, with one of their vintage reissues, Seiko has got many of these. Right. And it's like, well, you know, your objections are it's too expensive and it looks like another watch and shut the fuck up. Like, like these are not intellectually stimulating objections. They're the kind of objections I hate. Right. And so I think we would all agree. And by we all, I mean, you and me at the very least, Andrew, hi. I'm waiting for my turn to finish my thought. No, wait, we're not getting back to that. I think we would all agree that there are bad vintagery issues.
Andrew Because there are just bad watches. There are people, there are missteps, there are poorly executed, poorly designed, you know, through the bomb out there and missed designs.
Everett But we're not really talking about it. Or maybe we're not talking about it in a productive or meaningful way is maybe my point of that sort of long interruption distraction.
Andrew Hold on, I'm done. We're not like we maybe should be or we're not in that we don't because it doesn't matter because flops flop. There's no news in a flop. There's no excitement in a flop. Maybe that's right. I think that's why. I don't think we should be because there are just misses. And we talk about this a lot. It's easy to find an ugly watch and say, that's ugly. You don't need me to tell you that watches. If you need me to tell you that that watch is ugly, you know, maybe you don't think that watch is ugly and you're crazy person and you should buy that watch because they need to sell it because they made it and they need, they need to sell it to get rid of it.
Everett So maybe that's the next article I write for the website is that the, twenty worst micro brown watches of the last three years. And just trash on people I like and see what happens.
Andrew Maybe they'll send you a free one to prove to you that it's not so bad.
Everett You know, the only watch I think I've ever really trashed on, and I haven't really trashed on it, but John Ferrer's initial, I can't remember what it was, but the really big is really big. Oh yeah. Which it's actually a really cool watch but John's such a like easygoing guy that I know I can make that joke and he's not gonna get upset but I think I'd be uncomfortable trashing watches.
Andrew Yeah for the most part.
Everett Yeah.
Andrew Mostly because there's so much that goes into it and there are things to like about damn near every watch out there. Yeah. That's what I like looking for. Can we talk about some issues with reissues though?
Everett I've had it Andrew. I mean, I'm here with you.
Andrew I think I know.
Everett I know it doesn't seem like it at this point, but I am. I promise.
Andrew I think there are too many reissues.
Everett Hot take number one. I'm going to check this off.
Andrew Go ahead. I just think there's too many. I want to see less because we see really well executed reissues. We see not so well executed reissues in that we see one to ones. We see things with upgrades. We see things that maybe should have been upgraded that weren't, like the new Bulovo that just came out was still 16 millimeter lugs, which is a weird choice, but good for them for keeping it one-to-one.
Everett Are we done talking about this watch? Because I have something to say about it. So if we're not going to circle back.
Andrew No, we're obviously going to circle back. I just want to see less of them. I'm kind of tired of seeing new, new, new, new, and under it is just an iteration, a color change, a bracelet change of a reissue that was already out there. And I know that's brands capitalizing on the reissue craze that we're experiencing right now, but I want to see more, like actually new stuff. Like don't just, don't just run through the Rolodex and find one you like and drop it. I want to see new designs. That's what I want. Please.
Everett Can you think of a new design in the last year that you were like, kablamo? The C63 is the only one I can think of that. And it's not really a new design. It's just an iteration.
Andrew I mean, it's an iteration. I think we've hit our, we've hit the terminus of new designs, right? I'm air quoting new designs because there are so many, there are only so many acceptable watch shapes. There are only so many hand combinations and dial combinations. I think we're sort of there. I think what it comes into now is in case development, case shapes in the way of your finishing, your anglage, the way you, interact your case with your dial. But like new stuff that's come out in the last year, the C63 line was a good hitter.
Everett You're making my point very well. Yeah. You know, there's only so much you can do with watches, right? I guess I guess maybe that's what I mean. I said that. I guess you did. But that really is that really is the big at some point. These brands need to come out with new stuff. whether that's new or old or new old or old new or whatever, they need to continue to release models every year. SKUs, they can't rely on last year's SKUs because they need new SKUs in order to get new customers and to retain existing customers, right? And so there's this awful system in which, you know, Unless a company, you know, there's a good friend of mine, someone I talk to about watches often, but who really trashes Laurier, because Laurier has, as he puts it, one watch. Laurier's just got one case. And notwithstanding the fact that I think that that's not true for any number of reasons. Because they have at least three. His point is a decent one. And, you know, the opposite of that is, you know, a lack of cohesion or a brand that tries to do too much or, um, you know, a brand that has some good watches and some misses, or perhaps because they're so focused on redesigning the wheel every time they miss on other important aspects. You know, there's a couple of brands that pop into my brain, but you know, I think a brand that does really well with sort of having diversity of uh, form factor notice a brand that we really enjoy. I really like their watches. I really like what they're doing. Um, but what we've seen with notice is maybe a little bit of a turn back to the detail. And, and I know that their last few releases have been colorway iterations, right? Which I know is not your favorite thing. You'd rather brands really, you know, push on some key aspect as opposed to simple, uh, color iteration.
Andrew But notice is unique in that though, because they, every color way iteration, they also make upgrades to the watch. Even mid mid run, they're making upgrades to the watch. There there's 75 iterations of every watch that they have at this point because they're constantly developing.
Everett Yeah. Yeah. And so I guess the point is you can't have, You can't have everything, right? There's X amount, especially with these micro brands, although I don't think that's really what we're talking about today. No. That's maybe something a little bit different on our side. So, you know, with these brands, Timex, for instance, and I think a great place for us to start this conversation, to the extent it hasn't started, would be with the Timex Q, right? Yes. Perhaps in the affordables world, at least, the most ubiquitous vintage reissue of the last handful of years in any event. I know you have some thoughts about the Timex Q. You're a Q owner.
Andrew I am. It's not allowed in the studio. Otherwise, I'd have it. I love the Timex Q. When it first released and it went from $180 watch retail to you can't get them under $500 and just There was just this period where you couldn't get them because they were all gray market, all marked up. $450, $500 bucks on eBay. Yeah. Yeah. And I just went to the Timex website one day and they happened to have inventory and I bought one. And I love it. For $180 bucks or whatever. Yeah, paid retail. Like I think $899 shipping or something stupid. But I bought it and I loved it. And they, that was, so I bought the Pepsi and I think at that time they had the Pepsi in the black.
Everett Yeah. That's for those first, that very first run. That first run.
Andrew And it was exciting. Because it was this cool reissue, it was really true to form with the necessary updates, right? It didn't have an original movement, because that would be bad.
Everett It had a modern movement. A Seiko movement of all things. Right.
Andrew Thanks, Timex. Still a bi-directional bezel, still all these really charming things about the watch. But they're still releasing Q Timexes with huge marketing campaigns and just changing the colorway. Now, to be fair, I like the bezel-less one more. The FalconEye.
Everett The FalconEye. Yeah, so they've just released this green one. The green one, yeah. I think that's actually what sparked this topic, correct?
Andrew Yeah, so I was thinking about it anyway, and I saw it, and I got really mad, and it went aside, because it's not new. I'm down with companies having flagship models, because I think maybe when I'm saying new, new, new, new, new, maybe misspeaking what I'm what I'm thinking because I'm a little riled up. I don't need a company to be like Invicta and have 10,000 SKUs. I'm totally okay with a company like Brew or Laurier or Manta having six SKUs. And if they drop a new color every year, that's new. Like just one, like their one release a year is they're going to drop a new color. And they're pouring money into, oh, we're going to do this bracelet better. Or we're going to do this better. We're going to do this better. We're going to improve our engineering. We're doing something that isn't just trying to drive click traffic and sales out the door in the way of frenzies. We want to build a customer base. We want to build a following. We want to build a brand. And that's why I take issue with, it's new, it's new, it's new. And I think that's kind of why my original point, I think the reissue is being overplayed. because that's where everyone likes. And I think that the FalconEye, the green FalconEye is dope. Yeah.
Everett I really like it. And just in case you guys don't know, this is Timex Q. It's their, I don't know what kind of like a, uh, it's a wedge case. I'm not sure. It's a little bit different case than the, than the Q Timex that first came out. But, uh, they, I don't know, a couple of months ago they released a green and it's all new, all new.
Andrew Uh, and so, yeah, I, I think I understand what you're saying, but can you call it a vintage reissue if it's not, if it, if it's a color change or like, what is, what's the threshold for it to be a vintage reissue? Or is this just the revitalized resurrected Q Timex line that is now going to live in perpetuity?
Everett Yeah. Well, and I guess I don't know that. And I think it's, I assume it's a rhetorical question. Um, and is that a problem if, if Timex had a watch 40 years ago, 30 years ago, and now they've introduced it and it's got lasting appeal. Is that problematic? To continue to refer to it as that, I mean, in 2035, will it still be the vintagery issue? It can't be. And is that a problem? Is this even an issue? Of course it's not an issue. We're talking about watches. Yeah.
Andrew Well, okay. I'm riled up. I'm a little, I have like sweat breaking on my hairline. Good night, you guys. It's been fun. Over this topic. But it's watches. It doesn't matter. But I'll get excited about it. Yeah. I'll even get angry about it.
Everett It's not new. So in this instance, you're taking umbrage not with the watch or the form of the watch or even perhaps the color of the watch, but rather the presentation, the marketing presentation of the watch. Yes. How long can we go? I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I actually, you know me, I don't like, that's like my least favorite criticism of a brand is marketing, right? Because marketing is so weird, right? You've got to just sort of marketing is famously this like experimental operation. And maybe your point is that it's kind of lazy, right? Like we're ceasing to be interesting with marketing, we're just marketing and using these terms and phrases, which I think is a fair criticism. Yeah. With that said, I think Q, I think Timex has done really well with the physical aspects of their reissue program. They absolutely have. And I think increasingly so, you know, there've been several Timex that have been introduced in the last shit, three or four months. that I've thought that is really, that's really fantastic. You know, their most recent, um, their most recent military release, uh, which is famously, uh, American mill spec, mill design, um, field watch. And, you know, we sort of, I think you and I had a conversation about this and I had conversations with people online. Well, this is, uh, Hamilton khaki, uh, you know, they're, they're taking the Hamilton khaki mechanical and, and stealing it. Well, that's not exactly right. You know, it's just that, yeah, this is a military designed watch. It's a design spec, right? So they're, they're using this historically significant design spec in the same way that Hamilton's using that. And, and, and anyone else. And is that okay? Right. Does it some point Hamilton. or Benress or Marathon or any of the other number of companies.
Andrew Or CWC.
Everett Yeah. At some point, does someone get ownership? Does the fact that Timex never released that watch in a period of appropriate time, does that mean they've lost the ability to have that design? And I don't know. And also, is that still a vintagery issue? If it was never released? That's right. So Timex never made that watch. Are they now allowed to vintage reissue that watch? I don't know. Of course they are. The answer is yes, but is it tasteful? You know, is it tasteful as a brand to do that? Is it tasteful as a consumer to consume that? Uh, you know, obviously.
Andrew It's archival releases. I mean, you know, Bulova, that's, Bulova's making their money right now on archival releases and on vintage reissues. That's, I mean, all the non-weird experimental stuff that's out there. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Bulova is like they're kind of Invicta-y or vintage reissue. There's not really an in-between.
Everett Well, let's talk about Bulova. Are you comfortable talking about Bulova for a second here? Yeah. So the first Bulova vintage reissue that I remember, and I'm sure this isn't the first, but it's the first one that I have consciousness of as I look back, was the Devil Diver release that they did. probably 2015, 2016. Um, you know, the famous 666 feet, you know, it's got those really crazy upright see-through markers. It's just this like terrifically seventies high tacky watch, right? Yeah. And I think when they first reintroduced this, they had two versions. They had a limited thousand piece, 41, 40 and change millimeter version, which was true to the original specifications. And then Bulova being the completely tone-deaf brand they are, had a modern version, which is this 44 millimeter, just gigantic gantor behemoth.
Andrew And in 2016, watches are turning, oh God, the decision there.
Everett Right. 2016 is the time where they could have said, you know what, we can get into this. But they're not paying attention. They're serving a much larger market than the enthusiast market, which in fairness, I think in 2016, the move to smaller watches was maybe not quite as widespread as it is now. I think it was still popular sentiment that a watch needed to be big in order to be masculine or whatever. That's how you get your right arm strong. And so on one hand, they have this really pretty neat, the orange dial 41 millimeter cool watch that nobody can get. And on the other hand, they have this turd, this 44 millimeter weird watch. And they've corrected that now, right? They've gone back and they've released that watch in a 41 millimeter version, which they probably should have just done in the first place. and maybe lessons have been learned, or maybe it was perfect business sense for them to have the 44 first and then to transition later. Maybe their customer base wasn't ready for that yet. But in my mind, that's the best, maybe the earliest example I can think of of how do you really fuck up a vintage reissue? Yeah.
Andrew You do it like that.
Everett You do it like that?
Andrew You change the dimensions in the wrong way. Like doing an OP36. at a 32. Gotcha. But that's a good, that's a good, uh, maybe turning point to talk about what, what for you is an appropriate change in a reissue because we see it all the time. Very few reissues are one to ones. Very few. Yeah. Because you're reissuing a watch from a time when style was very different. When 36 millimeter watch was far more appropriate than it is now. when things were just different. There wasn't this manufacturing desire for efficiency. So not every lug was 18 or 20 unless you're Grand Seiko and might as well make them 19 just for funsies. The uniformity in manufacturing just wasn't quite the same. So you get weird lug widths. You get kind of funky designs with a big ass watch and a little ass bracelet. What's appropriate to change for you?
Everett For me personally? Yeah. You know, I really, and you know this, right? So to sort of stick with Bulova for a second to hopefully answer your question, or at least come up with an answer that seems like I'm answering your question, even if I'm not, um, you know, Bulova re-released these Mill Ships watches here in the last couple of months. Yeah, three months or so. And first, I just want to say, I think these watches are incredible. I think they're really neat. They've got some really cool engineering. I, you know, the, the bezel is a push to turn thing. Um, you know, these watches are just interesting in and of themselves. And then in the context of vintagery issues, I actually really like what Bulova did with them, which is that They took this kind of quirky, kind of weird watch and they made it modern. The movement's modern. The engineering, while historically significant is for Bolivar, not significant in a grand scale, but for Bolivar was significant. They took all that stuff and they put it in like really modern techniques, modern materials. modern unions of material too, which I think is an important thing. So everything works like a new watch, but it aesthetically looks very much like the old watch. And all the way to, there's two points I think of contention with that watch. One is the thickness. I think that there's two different versions of that. One of them is very thick and the other is less thick, but they're both kind of chunky watches and they have, 16 millimeter lugs which I think almost everybody doesn't like. Almost everybody who's talking about it doesn't like. Clearly some people like it because people are buying these watches and enjoying these watches. I'm in the that's really neat camp. I would have been irritated if they would have changed it because I think that what makes watches neat, and you know this about me, I like watches that are a little weird. Like give me something different because with 18 or say 20 millimeter lugs, that watch just looks like a different watch. And it looks like a Blancpain or it looks like any number of Blancpain homage, right? It just is going to wind up being a boring watch. As it is, it's really interesting. I don't share the general expression of uniformity in design, right? I think that there's this pervasive and maybe even toxic idea in all things, right? Watches, cars, knives, whatever, that if you do something different, it's bad. And I don't think anybody who holds those opinions would phrase it that way. But when I hear people say, it was a mistake to continue to do 16 millimeter lugs, What I hear them say is taking risks or being different in an unexpected way isn't okay with me. And for my part, I think that's what I want, right? Bulova sticking to that while I don't think it was necessary. I think that's what makes that watch interesting. Those 16 millimeter lugs are for me, the thing that makes that watch interesting. I don't think it's aesthetically bad. It's just different. I have two thoughts.
Andrew Yeah.
Everett One, I didn't answer your question.
Andrew Don't care. Don't remember it. Thought number one. I think I'm somebody who's willing to say this was a mistake. And it's only a mistake because it didn't work. What do you mean by it didn't work? When a company makes a decision and it works, a different decision. They decide to break the mold and it works, awesome. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Either I don't like it, people don't like it, it flops, take your pick. That's what taking risks is. Bolova's not really known for taking risks that make sense. They tend to change vintage reissues in weird ways. And this, and I think what makes, I think it's weird that it has 16 millimeter legs. I think you're right that it makes it interesting and to give it 18 or 20s, is going to make it look like everything else, which is going to change the watch. At which point, why bother re-releasing it, right? There's only so much change that you can do to a watch before you're not re-issuing a vintage watch. You're just putting brown loom on the dial and calling it a vintage re-issue.
Everett And it's worth noting that this isn't a vintage re-issue of a watch that was actually in circulation. Yes. This is a vintage re-issue of a prototype watch.
Andrew They went to the archive and said, hey, we never made this. Let's give it a try. Yes. As it is. And it's cool. I think when you start making a ton of changes to the structure of the watch, start changing the case size, shape, lug size, shape, it's a new watch. It's just a new watch. It's not the Honda Civic that's evolved over this period of time because there's been a gap in production. It's not just the 2016 version, the 2021 version. It's a whole new watch. You don't get to call it a vintage reissue if you've entirely re-engineered it, slapped a new name on it. I don't think.
Everett Yeah. And I think some of this, so I think some of this conversation depends on us, um, perhaps falsely reinforcing messaging that we have perceived the companies to have delivered to us when maybe they didn't. Right. I mean, sometimes certainly companies are really explicit about what they're doing. Sometimes they're more specific than maybe we give them credit for. But, you know, this conversation of, is it a reissue or is it not, I think is maybe a little like the conversation about, is it in-house or is it not? Sometimes we've made assumptions about what certain things mean, and then we expect these companies to adhere to those definitions that have been created outside or perhaps internally, you know, we've all agreed on what certain things mean. And then the company maybe isn't in on that joke and they perceive an alternative meaning, you know, whose fault is it? Is it our fault? Is it their fault? Cater to me.
Andrew I'm not going to buy your watch, but do the thing that I want. Yeah.
Everett So, you know, what's okay to change? Frankly, I think these companies can do whatever they want. Seiko gets a lot of flack for their vintage reissues. I think, in particular, the 62 MAS iterations that have come out in the last four or five years, any number of them have been the subject of ire, right? The Seiko fanboy is particularly venomous with his statements, and the 62 MAS reissues have been too expensive, you know, uh, what's the, what's the term I'm looking for? Uh, not, not worth it. Oh yeah.
Andrew It's not worth what they're charging. It'd be worth it at a thousand dollars less. Right.
Everett And, and so at the end of the day, Seiko does this thing often. Well, they'll release two very similar watches at two seemingly incomprehensible price points. One of them being affordable for someone like me. I look at it and I think that's affordable. And then one of them being a limited edition with a little bit better movement, indistinguishable via the internet anyway, indistinguishable fit and finish differences. And one of them will be $800, $900, and the other one will be $4,000 to $7,000. Do you know how they do that?
Andrew They put a Prospex logo on the case back.
Everett Right. Well, and I think your joke is well received, right? But honestly, at the end of the day, there are differences between these watches. And there's lots of things a company can sell. A company can sell exclusivity. A company can sell a movement. A company can sell finishing. They can sell material differences. They can sell manufacturing differences, right? There are any number of things a company can and should charge for. And so that criticism often, I think it falls flat for me. But Seiko, I think, is doing, by and large, their vintage reissues really well.
Andrew 100%. I wanted to talk about my favorite reissue that's been reissued several times over. The Alpinist. Yeah. Yeah. We're on, what, iteration five? of the mainline of the mainline Alpinist. Yeah. And they're only really just calling the most recent a reissue because they went back to the OG design.
Everett You're talking about the 1959 reissue that came out earlier this year.
Andrew Rather than the Alpinist is the Honda Civic. It's by and large been in production the duration of its lifetime.
Everett I'm going to say Jeep Cherokee but keep going. Take your pick. Wrangler. Wrangler, that's the one I meant.
Andrew Yeah, thank you. By and large, well, it's changed more than a Wrangler. Yeah, maybe, yes. But by and large, it's been in production for the duration of its lifetime. And it's changed a lot. There's been a lot of iterations. There's annual iterations. There's changes. There's body changes. There's dial changes. But it's been in production. And just now, Seiko is calling their release of it a reissue because they went back to the 1959 design. That's my favorite reissue. Because the Alpinist still is in existence. It's still there. It's still being produced. And the reissue is a parallel release in conjunction with what's already in production. And I'm not a huge fan of the most recent, like the sand textured releases. Those aren't for me.
Everett But I never liked sand texture.
Andrew Almost universally, no. I can't think of a time where I've liked it. But I can't say with certainty that I don't like it. But that's my favorite reissue. Because they're really going back to the original design. They're not dropping this whole new watch. They're not abandoning something else. They're not treating it as a new line. They're not resurrecting it. And maybe that's it. Maybe they're not trying to resurrect the Alpinist with this reissue. They're just dropping something cool.
Everett What do you think of these companies that are, you know, we've talked about this a few times in recent weeks. What do you think of these companies that are zombie brand companies that sort of seemingly came out of nowhere with the sole purpose of revisiting a catalog that's been dead for 40 years? The ones that pop to my mind, some companies that have done this really well, I think Woolbrook is a company that's very much in our world that's done this really well. Nevada Grenchen is another one that sort of And Nevada Gretchen's this really interesting company to me because I think that they're very much focused on meeting the needs of neckbeard enthusiasts. Hard to sustain.
Andrew Maybe. You only get to be the darling for so long.
Everett But then you've got companies, you know, Alsta is one that comes to mind. Wellsbro. Wellsbro, certainly. What's the other one? Oh, the other one I'm thinking of is Synchron. You know, Synchron's maybe a little bit different beast, but you've got these companies that are sort of tapping into that next level, that next level of enthusiast, a little bit more money with varying degrees of success, I think. What do you think of that general idea?
Andrew It's a dangerous business venture for me. You're resurrecting something that people have no, people aren't even aware of being dead. You know, if, if nobody talks about the ghost that the person, you know, totally peacefully died in their sleep, in their house, they talk about the horror stories, right? I mean, this isn't, it's, it's such a tough road to hoe resurrecting something people didn't know was gone because you cannot market yourself as a new brand. You can't be the new, exciting, hot thing. You can be the new, exciting, revived thing. Hey, this brand has just come to life because you own it. You know, we've, we've been, we've been risen from the dead. Do you have this balance that you must strike? And I don't know where arbitrarily it is because it's totally arbitrary. I think you could very easily take issue with Wellsboro being resurrected and creating a whole new watch out of spare parts, though. It's a zombie brand and that perfect makes perfect sense to zombie a watch together. I think you could take issue with him not doing a Wellsboro design release. I don't personally, but I think it'd be easy to do so.
Everett Yeah. I think Wellsboro is a little bit different and I think it almost doesn't fit into this conversation, but, uh, your, your point is well made, right? What sort of, what sort of.
Andrew What do you owe to the brand name? That's right. Versus what do you owe to you for having bought it and your future? And the other question is, okay, so you buy the brand name. Where's everything that came with it? All the technical specs are gone. All the designs are gone. Are you really reviving the brand or are you just buying the logo?
Everett Yeah. This IP you've purchased, what is the substance to that IP?
Andrew Because if a brand transaction, if we were to buy a watch brand, we would have all of the intellectual property that goes along with it. Not just in theory of it, in the way of the branding, but we'd have all the technical drawings, all the design specifications, all the research, all the technology. To the extent those things existed. Well, but if we were to go by notice right now. Oh, sure. That brand transaction is easy. It's just, okay, it's under new ownership. we're going to produce notice watches.
Everett When we see this happen a lot in the industry, right? When ETA buys a brand, they contract with the engineers and the, and the people who are designing those watches, they contract with them to stay on and, you know, to pass the, the torches at work. So, uh, yeah, that's a different, it's a different situation versus a company like a company like Nevada Genshin, for instance, which I think is a great example that, you know, resurrected from the dead, who knows what, if any of these technical specifications they have?
Andrew Almost none. So anything they're going to do, that's going to be a true reissue is going to be wholly re-engineered based off of somebody's best interpretation of photographs that existed from the day. Maybe some pieces. Probably not many.
Everett Yeah, maybe like, um, you know, MRIs or CAT scans of, of existing models that they've come across. Yeah.
Andrew Who's going to do that?
Everett Yeah. Well, brands do that, but you know, I think another interesting, I think another interesting brand, one that I've already mentioned, um, but Synchron. Synchron is a watch that, or as a brand that has sort of come back in the last handful of years and actually The story about Synchron is a really interesting one. And I think it could perhaps the whole story about Synchron and their relationship to Doxa could make an interesting episode. And maybe we'll do that someday. Um, but so, so this is a weird watch. So Synchron historically owned any number of companies. They owned, uh, several sort of Swiss strap companies and amongst other things, they owned Doxa. So Synchron, I believe their first, their first watch is this Synchron Military. And, uh, I know Jason Heaton from the Graynado is a big fan of these. People like these. Will likes these. Um, right after Synchron released this military watch, Doxa, you know, and if you look at this watch, you'll notice right away, well, this looks very much like a Doxa.
Andrew It's going to make sense why we're talking about it.
Everett And, uh, Doxa announces that they're going to remake their military watch, which if you look up Doxa military is exactly the same as the Synchron military. Well, well, who owns that design? And I don't mean, I don't mean legally speaking. I mean, emotionally speaking, perhaps, um, cause legally speaking is maybe a different question altogether, but, um, and may play out.
Andrew I think that'd be interesting.
Everett And so if, if now, Doxa releases this watch and you have a choice between these two. Which do you buy and which do you feel okay buying? Maybe you don't care and that's okay, but I think it's a valuable conversation. Is what Synchron did here okay?
Andrew And there's not that big of a price difference between the two. So money's really not an object in the conversation.
Everett Right. And we always say homages of historic watches, you know, that you can't really get anymore. Oh, that's that I give that a pass because that's cool. Um, this is sort of, you know, I imagine that based on the timing of those announcements, that there's some tension here. And in fact, I'm almost positive there's some tension here. Uh, you know, it's interesting to me. Well, so I think we've talked a little bit in circles here, and that's okay because this is a circular conversation. We're never going to have answers. Do you have any hard and fast rules regarding vintage reissues in terms of sizing, in terms of materials, in terms of whatever? Do you personally have any hard and fast rules?
Andrew Not materials.
Everett I think you... Like what about like acrylic versus sapphire? Are you okay if we change that?
Andrew I'd rather you not. Like I'd like it to stay as true one-to-one as you can. And the nice thing about the way that watch style acceptance is going is that we're trending toward a time where almost everything from the seventies and eighties is going to be fashionable, is going to fit the current palette that we have for watch taste. You don't need to change shit to pull a watch out of the 70s or 80s and make it look really good right now. You just got to make it. And most of these companies that are doing reissues have deep enough catalogs of both circulated and uncirculated watches that they could do it. Yeah, for sure. Without making significant changes. You don't have to, you know, pull in the left right corner and scale it up nine millimeters. Drop a 34 millimeter field watch. Fucking do it. That's the charm of the vintage reissue. They don't have to be huge circulations. They can be 1,000 watch runs, 500 watch runs. That's kind of what I, and maybe part of my issue with reissues, they don't have to be huge circulation flagships. Maybe they shouldn't be flagships, and maybe that's the issue I take in general with them. With the Q Timex. Yeah. It shouldn't be a flagship. It's a reissue. It's a cool thing, like, hey, we're doing this. You can't find them used. You can't find them at antique shops or in consignment stores. We'll throw you a bone, right? Throw me a pogue.
Everett Like just do a one for one pogue, man. Wouldn't that be cool? If Seiko remade their automatic chronograph movement 60 was 61 39. Yeah. And it was just like Omega three 21 did just released a bunch of fucking chunky ass. Vintage chronographs I'd be into it man.
Andrew That's a really true.
Everett I can get behind. I think most people don't like chunky watches I I'm oh, I realize I'm a weirdo in that regard.
Andrew We've done a whole episode on the thick watches and there's a reason for that thick watches Yeah, you know I'm pretty I think I'm pretty loose with these things.
Everett You know, I don't mind material upgrades Usually sometimes I think well, you know, I've got a soft spot for acrylic.
Andrew Oh, so do I that's why I say I don't think it's an upgrade to go to Sapphire
Everett And that's subjective, right? I know some people for very good reasons want Sapphire, and I respect the shit out of that. I actually really enjoy my acrylic crystal watches, and I don't have those feelings, those deep feelings about it. You know, I think my biggest point of contention with vintage reissues, and this is not all vintage reissues, in fact, not even most of the ones we've talked about today, but I think many vintage reissues, especially on the mid to higher end, come out with vintage loom and faux tina, which I think Jack Forster's written an entire article about the origins of faux tina, that phrase. I don't like it. I don't like it. I want to earn it. Well, I don't care about that so much. I just want a watch that doesn't look contrived. That's my issue with Fotina generally. Like I think that there's a Longines field watch that has like black paint splattered on the dial to create the illusion of a degrading dial paint. There's any number of really, really highly colored orange and tan, that raw umber I don't want it. I don't want it. I don't think that that's particularly aesthetically pleasing. In a vintage watch, I see the appeal, but in a modern new watch, give me crisp, sharp, clean coast.
Andrew I realize that I'm... It was when it was brand new. Why shouldn't it be now?
Everett Yeah. Right. And, and I think that there's an argument to, well, you know, tritium or, or not tritium, but radium is going to degrade in a way that Luminova, Luminova is very stable compared to the loom we were using even in the early part of the 1990s. Right. And so there's this lost, uh, there's this lost expression of a watch's vintage. maybe forever, right? Any watch with LumiNova will never patina. You know, just like modern paints aren't going to go tropical like an old Rolex or an old Omega, right? That's lost to us. And so if we want that, we've got to do it on the front end and it's got to be contrived. I don't want that personally. If I have a no-no, I also don't, you know, I don't think this is happening as much anymore, but I don't like that expansion to bigger sizes. Although I will say, some watches, 32 millimeters for me, probably too small. Then don't release it. Probably too small. If you have a really neat 32 millimeter watch and you want to release that today in 36, I'm fine with that. I think that that's probably a pretty appropriate size. Do a split. Do a 32 and a 36 release. Hamilton released their khaki pioneer a couple years ago. I believe it's a hand wind, but it's kind of a square rectangle cushion case and they released it true to size, which is 36. I believe. I think it's maybe a little too small. I think that that watch even just a fraction bigger, maybe more wearable. Um, although it's not too small. So, so I'm just sort of spouting off at this point. But I don't mind that size change. If you want to give me a slightly more modern size for a actually probably undersized watch in modern terms, I'm okay with that. Don't give me Fotina. That's my only, yeah, that's my only hard and fast rule. Because then you're a liar. So as usual, we've solved absolutely nothing. Who cares? We drank some beers. We talked about watches. I drank seltzer because I'm committed to this keto lifestyle.
Andrew Hate it for you, my friend. We've let Seiko know that they have a buyer for a Pogue release. So if you're listening, you can make one, that's fine.
Everett Mr. Seiko, if you can hear us. Not uncle Seiko, it's mister. Yeah, it's a different fellow. Yeah, you know, the only problem is if Seiko released a 6139 completely re-engineered movement It would only be in watches at about $9,000 and up. And only available in Japan. Perhaps. Yeah. Bullshit. Anything else you want to add?
Andrew There's a lot of things I want to add, but we're out of time.
Everett Andrew, other things, what do you got? Did you like the efficiency there? You didn't like it.
Andrew No.
Everett Andrew?
Andrew There's a Q Timex 1978 three-hander release. that I very much like.
Everett Other things. That's another thing.
Andrew Sort of what we're talking about. I have the men's better sweater, one quarter zip fleece from Patagonia, not from Patagonia, it's from the company. So I've had this fleece sweater for three-ish years. It's not really a sweater.
Everett It's called a fleece sweater. I know they call it the better sweater, but it's not really a sweater, but.
Andrew No, it's a quarter zip. It's a fleece, but it's big fleece. It's not micro fleece, so I don't get sweaty in it. It's kind of a woven, woolen outer, so I don't look like a stripper on the outside, because everyone makes fun of my just pure fleece crew neck zip up. Says it looks like a lady jacket. It does look like a lady jacket, but it's the best insulating layer that I have.
Everett I'm, I'm, I'm like really waffling about making an explain the stripper comment, but I think I'm going to let it lie.
Andrew Apparently strippers wear fur jackets. It looks like a fur, like a black fur coat. Okay. It's not, it's not fluffy like that. It doesn't matter. So this I've had for about three years, it's pilled some, actually a good amount on like the high friction areas, you know, on the inside of the arms, in the armpits, places where you'd expect your jacket to pill. They're 120 bucks and I'm usually kind of anti Patagonia pricing. Patagucci. Yeah, because I'm almost universally, you can get an almost as good, definitely cheaper REI branded analog.
Everett Or Marmot. Or Marmot. Poor man's Patagonia.
Andrew Take your pick, right? This is my go-to transitional weather pullover. It's a little too warm for summer. It's a little too, like for mid-summer, but for even like May mornings, June mornings, even into like July evenings, this is money. It breathes really well, but it's a great insulator. It fits right in all the right places, at least for my body type. It's not too tight around the torso. It's not too loose around the belly. It's not too tight in the arms. It's a good color. I have the New Navy, and I love this thing. This is the only Patagonia product that I've ever tried on, worn, and retained.
Everett Just loved it the whole time. Yes, it's so good. It's one of those like borderline ubiquitous garments, right? So many people have it, you know it's gotta be meeting the needs of.
Andrew But so many people wear things like that that are not comfortable. Right. Ugg boots, for example. I love me some slippers. Slippers are not all day out in life wear shoes. But bitches wear Ugg boots all over. This is not an Ugg boot. This is a good transitional cool to just on this on the low end of warm weather like at about 60 degrees is kind of the top threshold of where this is comfortable down to probably like the mid 30s just this as a standalone and and as a warning I'm a cold weather person so it might not go as low for you but mid 30s this is can be a standalone for me it's got a single pocket a breast side pocket Kind of a, I mean, the typical Patagonia little, that's not a patch. It's the so on late tag iPhone four sized. Yeah. Well, let's see. Oh man. You guys. So that's a 13 in there. That's an 11. Uh, so the iPhone 11 fits in there. Uh, yeah, it's not, it's, it's just, it's a really ubiquitous piece of clothing. You've seen plenty of people wearing it. If you're looking for a good, transitional weather upgrade this year, the $120 for the Patagonia is worth it.
Everett When you said you've had that for three years and you wear it awful a lot, you wear it a lot. I can attest. Uh, not that sounded bad, not an obnoxiously a lot amount, but it's not my only jacket or sweater. You wear it quite a bit and it looks brand new.
Andrew I wear it, uh, under things as a, as a layering option and wear it like just over a t-shirt. but I've worn it under a rain jacket, I've worn it under a puffy, I've hunted in it, I've fished in it.
Everett Yeah, it's like meant for layering the way, you know, the form and everything.
Andrew Yeah, 120 bucks and it's, I mean, available. I don't know, this is right from the Patagonia website. I don't know if it's less or more from REI or anywhere else, but if you are thinking about a quarter zip sweater.
Everett Intermediate layer.
Andrew Yeah, this is money. I wouldn't endorse most Patagonia stuff because I think it's just, Patagucci.
Everett I've got another thing. Do me. So I don't know if I've ever really talked about my personal art endeavors on the show, but I do art, the occasional art thing. It's generally nudes of me. Mostly, mostly. A lot of that, actually. I have recently started looking into Printmaking. Printmaking. And, uh, I wanted to do some prints. I had a, I have a, I had slash have a kind of a bigger piece in mind, but I started to look into lino cut, which is the medium of taking pieces, panels of linoleum. They come in different sizes and they're different kinds of linoleum. Most of them are not. actually linoleum. There are different kinds of composites. Um, the one I'm using is a linseed oil and cork mixture that's compressed. And anyway, they call it linoleum and carving into the surface of it. It's a relief print, right? So just like a rubber stamp, you've got a flat layer on top and then a relief layer underneath that and what sticks up will print and what doesn't doesn't print everybody's used a rubber stamp it's the same it's the same idea um and i kind of spent a lot of time thinking about this and looking for materials well i finally this week kind of put everything together and have started my first print it takes it it's you can't just sit down and do it all at once because you've got drying times and you've got, I'm doing what's called a reduction line cut, which you remove pieces of the same panel in between each print. And so each print you're printing a little bit less material on top of the old material. Um, so it takes days. You can't just do it all at once. You're also doing three. Well, I'm doing three. I mean, most print you do multiple, you do multiples, right? Cause you're going to have some mistakes. And I did three and one of mine is, not going to work because I made a mistake. So, but I've got this big piece in mind. So I just did this to kind of learn, right? This, the piece I'm doing right now is very small, five by seven. My, my plan piece will be much bigger, but, um, I'm just having a blast, right? I know I talked to you about this last weekend and I was like, gosh, I'm really sort of like borderline obsessed and thinking about it. And, um, I'm what, three days into this now. Um, you know, not constantly, but working on this sort of here and there. And I'm just loving the shit out of it. I, you know, my other thing, of course, is linocut. I think that like more, uh, comprehensively, it's like doing this new thing. I'm learning new skills, which I don't think directly translate to anything, but it just is really enriching. Anytime you like dive into this thing, you don't know, you know, I like buying shit. I'm just loving the shit out of it, man.
Andrew I have enjoyed that every night before I go to bed I get a picture of the progress. It's the last thing I see before I go to bed every night.
Everett I don't know how you time it so well I don't think you're gonna get a picture tonight, but I think it's too late But I'll probably make the last print tomorrow, and then you could just send me a picture of it now with no changes I'm gonna sleep tonight So yeah, my other thing is line of cutting. If you do line of cutting, hit me up because, uh, uh, I'll, I'd love to sort of exchange ideas as I'm learning this process. You know, like I said, I'm, I've purchased these small pieces of linoleum now to kind of practice and to figure out like, how is this going to go in real life? What do I need to, you know, I've got in my brain, how I need to do it. What do I actually need to do? What is my, what is my plan missing? And I'm learning a ton. And so if you've got ideas, I'd love to pick your brain about this,
Andrew Also, if you remodel your kitchens or bathrooms in the next couple months, I will give you Everett's home address and you can send him all your linoleum scrap.
Everett Because that's how this works. Yep. Andrew, what else have you got, man? Are we done? It's it for me. I'm done.
Andrew Because I'm kind of done. We had our issues with reissues and, you know, the matter is solved.
Everett We figured it out as usual. Hey, thanks you guys for joining us for this episode of 40 and 20, the watch clicker podcast. Check us out on Instagram at 40 and 20 at the watch clicker at watch clicker. That's where we post posts. Sometimes, uh, watch clicker.com. That's our website. Um, regular articles. Sometimes they're watch reviews. Sometimes they're more interesting than that. Uh, watch clicker.com. If you want to support us, you can do so at patrion.com slash 40 and 20. That's where we get all the money for hosting photos and podcasts and websites and also how we support Andrew's pedagogy hobby. How else am I supposed to get the good shit? And don't forget to tune back in next Thursday for another hour of watches, food, drinks, life, and other things we like. Bye-bye.