Episode 124 - Gold Watches, with Evan Kaspar
Published on Wed, 10 Mar 2021 21:59:01 -0800
Synopsis
The episode features an interview with Evan Kasper, a new writer for WatchClicker and a vintage gold watch enthusiast. Evan shares his journey into the world of watches, starting with inheriting a Seiko from a family friend. He discusses his passion for collecting vintage solid gold watches, the appeal and intrinsic value of precious metal cases, and tips for finding good deals on eBay. Evan also talks about the varying karat values of gold watches and what to look out for when buying vintage pieces.
Links
Transcript
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| Everett | Hello fellow watch lovers, nerds, enthusiasts, or however you identify. This is 40 in 20 to watch clicker podcast with your host Andrew and my good friend Everett. Here we talk about watches, food, drinks, life, and other things we like. |
| Andrew | Everett, how are you? Gosh, I'm so good. It's been a good week. It's been a good, it was a good weekend. I had a busy, busy weekend. |
| Everett | Yeah. I'm busy golfing, golfing. Yeah. Golfing and running. |
| Andrew | And running. You know, uh, it was, it's all fun stuff. It's all will gives me a hard time because it's like, Oh, you say you don't have any free time. You know, you need it. You have time to do this stuff, which a fair criticism. Right. But, uh, really both of those pastimes are very time consuming. They're time consuming. And, and, you know, you set a weekend aside to do these things. And then I go to central Oregon with some friends to this beautiful golf resort. And it's like, we're all sort of, uh, uh, grindstone guys, right? And so we get out there and it's like, let's do as much relaxing as we possibly can in three days, which means, you know, you play way too much golf and you drink way too much beer and you just go, you go. And so at the end of the day, it doesn't wind up feeling like any rest because it's actually not. |
| Everett | And you're a little hung over the entire time. It's exhausting to be hung over. That's right. |
| Andrew | That's right. So no complaints, right? That is what I wanted to do. That is, it is, uh, a completely elective weekend, uh, fun, enjoyable, lovely, and still exhausting. So it's also a haul. How was the weather? It looked nice. You know, so we got there Friday, it was chilly, you know, so it's like between 40 and 50 every day. Um, but it's central Oregon, so it's high desert, right? So fairly dry. Uh, the golf courses in for a winter golf course, it's in fantastic shape, totally stunning. Right. Um, but that first morning I woke up, I woke up Saturday morning after we had golfed Friday afternoon, um, to do a run, a long run Saturday morning. And the entire place was covered with like an inch to two inches of snow. And we're like, oh, well, I guess we're not going to golf. Uh, but sure enough by 10 30, it was clear. So. Interesting. Yeah. I mean, it's weird. It's a weird area. High Desert. It's fun. It was amazing. Very jealous. How'd you play? I played really well most of the time and not as well some of the time. |
| Everett | Great answer. |
| Andrew | How are you doing, buddy? |
| Everett | Good. We are plugging away, getting packed. A lot of boxes in our house. And that's kind of it. That is my time not spent working is spent figuring out what I can live without for the next two weeks. And putting it in a box. |
| Andrew | Putting it in a box. Yeah, that's right. Having just come from this mode, I do not envy you at all. |
| Everett | No, but we've hired our movers. We've got them scheduled. So like this is a great moving crew. No, I hired somebody else who also came very highly recommended. Has more reviews on Yelp, same number of stars. Whoa. Yeah. Yeah. Whoa. Exactly the same price. Whoa. Right. So yeah, we've got them scheduled cause I don't want to move couches or boxes for that matter. We, we considered hiring people to pack too. Um, but it was the same price, like per the per hour price for the team to come in three times as many hours. Yeah. It's just, it's more time, a lot more time. So, um, opted not to do that really made me appreciative of all the times the army paid for that entire expense because I'm like, man, the army forks out some dough to move you around. Yeah, that's right. |
| Andrew | That's right. It's expensive. Yeah. Well, without further ado, I do think we should move on because because we only have an hour and we have to talk about watches today. We've got a plan to talk about watches today. Yeah. And and we have a special guest. Our guest today is an accomplished writer for the WatchClicker website and the newest member of the writing staff at WatchClicker announced just last week. We've got Evan Casper, aka iDocCortman on the Instagrams. Evan, how the heck are you? |
| Evan Kasper | I'm doing good, guys. How are you fellas doing? |
| Everett | Well, you heard all about it. Yeah, you've heard how we're doing already. How's your week going? Because today's Monday, huh? |
| Evan Kasper | Monday, pretty normal. Normal Monday stuff here. Wasn't too bad. Weather's been really nice here, which has been nice. |
| Andrew | Yeah, you guys have snow on the ground there, right? You're in Missouri. Missouri. |
| Evan Kasper | Missouri. Missouri. No one here says that. Everyone says that. We all say it, but no one does. Like maybe a few people around Kansas City. I don't know. No one here in central Missouri. No one says Missouri. And we actually got rid of the last of our snow, but yeah, we did really get dumped on there. Uh, the whole Midwest did really. And, uh, yeah, we're glad to see that going. I'm ready to deal with some mud. |
| Everett | Did you have the same issues as, uh, like Texas did? Cause everyone made a big deal of Texas getting hammered by winter storm. Cause it's very unusual. But I'm imagining that that is not an entirely unusual winter occurrence for you to be getting, you know, 10 or north of that inches of snow, weeks of freezing temperatures. |
| Evan Kasper | So for us, no, we don't usually get a ton of what we get, like a lot of the rest of the South and the Southern Midwest, we get ice, which is worse than snow. And I think, I think Texas got some of that too. And that was what really was playing havoc with their power grids, because you get, you know, an eighth or a quarter inch of ice. That stuff's heavy. Mm hmm. And that takes down power lines that takes down trees, which then take down power lines. We were never out of power. I think a few of my neighbors might have been for just a little bit. We got warnings from the power company about peak usage and stuff because we had we had what was it, 12 or 13 below zero here for a few days. Yeah. Nice. |
| Andrew | Yeah, it's cold. |
| Evan Kasper | Yeah, that's where you just, you work from home and you stop the wood stove all day. |
| Everett | Oh my gosh. And you live right next to it. The wood stove. Yeah. You don't leave. |
| Evan Kasper | Yeah. No, it's, that's when you're glad your house is small. |
| Andrew | You know, I've experienced temperatures that cold only twice I think in my life, uh, and actually never that cold. Uh, and man, it's a totally different world of cold. I know people live in like negative 30, regularly, but I just can't imagine. It's fucking nuts. |
| Evan Kasper | Yeah. Yeah. I would be just as happy if we never got that, frankly. |
| Andrew | I would be just as happy in my life if it was sunny all the time. Yeah. 75. Well, Evan, you are not here to talk about the weather because I understand you're not a meteorologist. What you are, what you are, and I'm going to say this, I'm going to say this, with, with no tongue in cheek, you are, I would say somewhat of a gold watch expert. And I don't mean that in the, uh, watch school or any sort of academic sense, although you probably have some of those skills as well, but in terms of collecting gold watches, you're the closest thing that I know, besides perhaps someone like Jeff bachelor, uh, to a gold watch expert. Would you say that's accurate? |
| Evan Kasper | Uh, you flatter me for sure. |
| Andrew | Yes. No purposefully. |
| Evan Kasper | So it's working. Um, I like gold watches and really there's not a lot of enthusiasts that liked them. It seems it's a little strange. I, you know, when I started getting interested, I did what we all do. I looked on watch you seek, right? That's where you go for. |
| Andrew | That's where you go to learn about watches. |
| Evan Kasper | Yeah. The word in the trenches and, uh, Not a lot there. Not a lot as far as information or enthusiasm, really. So I guess in this very small pond, I am maybe a medium-sized fish. |
| Andrew | Well, by way of sort of getting us introduced into how you started to think about gold watches, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, a little bit about who you are as a watch hobbyist, and then how you get to gold watches. Because you're right, it is kind of an odd segment. Maybe not odd. |
| Everett | It's a much narrower segment of the already narrow Watch Nerds segment. |
| Evan Kasper | That's right. A niche within a niche. Yeah. No, sure. I'm Evan, you know, born and raised in Southern New Jersey. So I have that in common with our boss or my boss, Will. Moved to the Midwest as a teenager. Been there ever since. I like the space of the Midwest, but I do miss the shore. Um, uh, what else? I have an engineering job, but I'm really bad at math. Um, and I am a dad and husband in Washington enthusiast. I got into watches, uh, in a serious way to probably about three years ago now when, and you know, it's the common story inherited a watch, uh, an old family friend who was, uh, a really dear friend of mine, like a grandfather to me, he was a world war two vet. married a German girl, moved back to the US. He passed away and his widow gave me his watch, which was a Seiko. Let's see if I can get the number right. I think it was a 6309-8239. Basically a little three-hand Seiko 5. Okay. And totally smashed crystal. No idea if it ran. I didn't even know what a mechanical watch was at the time. But I got that. I got the crystal replaced. found that it did run and learned what an automatic movement was and just enjoyed it. I didn't know anything about servicing it either. But, you know, I had that connection back to my grandpa and that kind of got me started down the rabbit hole of reading up on other watches and stuff. And then in 2018, my wife and I, we planned a camping trip to various places in the American West. We went through the Southwest, hit the Grand Canyon, other places. And I wanted a watch for that trip because I didn't see the point in taking an expensive phone for me at the time, uh, hiking and into the woods where I had no service just to read the time. So a watch would actually serve a function for me and doing a bunch of research, of course, led me to the SKX. |
| Andrew | Because it's a perfect watch. |
| Evan Kasper | It's pretty dang good. I'll give it that. Yeah, no, I got it. |
| Andrew | I love it. The look of disdain on his face when I say it. All right, moving right along. |
| Evan Kasper | No, I loved it. That big slab of steel, all that stainless, you know, uh, just so rugged, such incredible loom. It's stayed in the tent pocket at my head at night and yeah, it just worked without a hitch. |
| Andrew | How'd you, so, so, so actually sort of to back up here, because I'm always curious about this transition, right? I think this happens to everybody, uh, that, that gets to kind of where we're at in, in a different way. But how do you go from, you know, so you, you, you get the Seiko five, this old Seiko five, it's smashed up. You don't know if it works. You don't even know what an automatic movement is. How do you get from there to then find finding the SKX? Because I think it doesn't take a lot of work to find the SKX. But it takes more work than just sort of a single Google search or whatever. I think you kind of have to be looking for the next level of something. So what, what did that look like for you? I'm curious about that when I talk to people. |
| Evan Kasper | Yeah. So I guess probably the search for how to fix that old watch really was what, you know, got me sort of stumbling upon some of these other threads on watch you seek wherever. And you start seeing a lot of stuff and I've always been a lover of shiny like I like gold I like boolean, you know, so Well-made watches seems like something it just was something that really appealed to me and I sort of tucked that in the back of my mind I like I like boolean too. |
| Andrew | It's good for like if you don't have like beef stock or what I use it over Okay, carry on Evan, I'm sorry will do so I |
| Evan Kasper | So yeah, that that was kind of how it got me there. I, you know, initially when I was looking to buy my first, you know, real rugged watch there in the SKX, it was kind of a toss up between that and the Mako. |
| Andrew | And... Shocking, as you do. |
| Evan Kasper | Yeah, exactly. The Mako, the Orient Mako almost won out, but I was willing to splurge for the better lume on that SKX. So really, it was just from there. |
| Andrew | And clearly, the better design as well. |
| Evan Kasper | I would agree with you there that Orient's got to figure out what to do with crowns and bezels. But the real jump for me happened between the SKX and when I discovered Steinhardt. |
| Andrew | Ah, yeah. |
| Evan Kasper | So Steinhardt's a brand that people feel differently about, obviously. I don't even remember how I stumbled across it, but I saw Rolex homages for affordable prices. And I was just blown away that, you know, sloped bezel, the case finishing look terrific. I just fell in love immediately. So I sold the SKX. I got myself a Rolex homage Steinhardt. And like the minute I opened that box, I was like, Oh, this thing's amazing. Yeah, because it looks like a Rolex, you know, and that's a time proven fantastic design. And so that was really where, you know, at that point, you jump from spending what 150 back then for an SKX to 400 for the steinhardt yeah it's a big jump yeah that's really where the slope started getting slippery and uh i found myself turning into a watch enthusiast aka someone who spends too much money on watches oh yeah that's all of us |
| Everett | I do have to say it looks like you do spend just the right amount of money on your library, though, because you you look to have you have many leather bound books, a gorgeous law library behind you. But I don't think that's what it is. |
| Evan Kasper | Oh, thanks. Yeah, I'm kind of a big deal, as you've noticed. |
| Everett | Yeah, it smells like it. |
| Evan Kasper | No, that's another thing I love classical literature. And if I and it was funny when you had Kaz on, he talked about how, you know, if he reads an e-book that he really likes, he goes and buys an Eastern Press copy. Yeah. You know, exact same strategy for me. I've been doing that for a long time. |
| Everett | Are those all Easton Press? Or generally? |
| Evan Kasper | No, there's a pretty good variety here. There's Folio Society, Easton Press, Nonesuch, a bunch of old stuff. But yep, all classics pretty much. |
| Everett | It's a great, great background. There are people who superimpose that picture into their background for their Zoom calls. That's right. |
| Andrew | So, so, so Steinhardt. Which Steinhardt did you get? |
| Evan Kasper | Uh, the ocean 39 at first. Okay. I think it was, I think it's called the ocean 39. The sort of bog standard. Yeah. 39 millimeter Rolex homage, which is, which is one of those watches. |
| Andrew | I think everybody's sort of taken a look at that and it's such a classic, you know, bog standards is an interesting way to describe it because I think that that's right. Right. It's, this is just the watch. If you're going to get a Steinhardt, it might be this one. Um, well, so at some point you, you, you go from, you know, Old Seiko, classic story. SKX, fantastic move. Steinhardt, really sort of next level move. But then your collection takes a turn, I would say, and you start getting into vintage pieces. So where does that come from? I mean, obviously, the Seiko 5 is a vintage piece, but I think it's almost in its own world, right? It's not what I think of when I think of a vintage watch. at some point you take a turn into these classic, uh, American British, but these gold pieces, these dress pieces, and that's probably got something to do with your affinity for nice things. But, but talk to us a little bit about the, the details behind that. |
| Evan Kasper | Yeah. So like I said earlier, I think it originally probably sort of stems back to my childhood. My dad was an avid coin collector and, uh, That's how kind of I got my love of gold and precious metals. And at some point, it just occurred to me, oh, you know, they made vintage watches in solid gold. I really wonder what those go for nowadays, because you don't see them. And it turns out if you are careful, know what you're looking for on eBay, they're actually or they can be quite affordable. So I had a promotion at work a long-awaited one. I hadn't had one for a while, and it was kind of a big deal for me, so I decided I'd celebrate a little. It's, you know, Gold Watch. So I started looking around eBay especially, and yeah, there's actually quite a selection out there. I wound up going for a vintage Hamilton, a Hamilton Phenomatic. I believe was originally from that line, that line was created for to be presentation watches, uh, to be given, you know, at the end of what, 25, 30 years of service. |
| Andrew | Sure. The retirement watch. |
| Evan Kasper | Yeah. That, you know, that linked to a job and linking it to my job just seemed a little fitting kind of. |
| Andrew | And so you wind up with a Hamilton cinematic and then, and then what, and then all of a sudden you're, you're in the hunt. |
| Everett | You're in a free fall at this point is what it seems like. |
| Andrew | The slope is no longer slippery. It's non-existent. |
| Evan Kasper | Guys, my wife might be listening to this. |
| Andrew | You have a headset on. You're good. I think he means she might listen to the episode. Our wives don't listen to it. |
| Everett | Your wife wouldn't listen to the episode. |
| Evan Kasper | She's going to. |
| Everett | Does she? She is going to. Okay. So they're super affordable. What I can say is that They are about one-tenth the price that you think they would be to be purchasing gold watches. |
| Evan Kasper | Uh, maybe not too far off, actually. |
| Everett | Okay. Tell me more. |
| Evan Kasper | So yeah, I, uh, got that Hamilton and I opened that package. It came from eBay. I was a little, uh, Mr. eBay. |
| Andrew | I, but I bought a lot of watches from that guy. He's a great seller. |
| Evan Kasper | Yeah. He needs to work on his packaging though. Cause I opened this thing up and it's like, it's paper towels, duct tape around an old dip can inside the dip can. Inside the dip can rattling around is a solid 14 karat gold Hamilton Thin-O-Matic. |
| Andrew | So nothing inside the dip can just watch in dip can wrapped in paper towels. So phenomenal. |
| Everett | Basically no padding. He puts some gravel in there to stone. It's better than stoneware. Better than dirty socks. |
| Andrew | But like there is there is a fellow you know who you are. There is a fellow that listens to the show and he's actually one of our very favorite listeners, longtime guy. And one time he sent us a couple of watches, a couple of watches, and they came in. They came in socks. I'm sure the socks were clean. They were clean. But they they did have quite a bit of cat hair. You know who you are. We still chuckle about it today. |
| Everett | That's how I travel with watches until I got a watch roll. I was rolling a pair of socks. |
| Evan Kasper | Yeah, well, at least, you know, pulling this out of a dip can, it had a nice wintergreen smell to it. That's amazing. Instead of socks. |
| Andrew | That's true. I actually have a wintergreen, a can of wintergreen grizzly that I store like dollar coins in my sock drawer and they come out smelling like wintergreen. |
| Everett | I found a half can of wintergreen the other day and I opened it up and I was like... And got all jonesy. You didn't put a dip in? No, it was very dry. I would have put it in. It was probably... It had to have been five years old. |
| Andrew | I'd have still... I'd have dropped one. |
| Everett | Give it a try. |
| Andrew | Evan, carry on. |
| Everett | We're talking about gold watches. |
| Evan Kasper | Okay, so yeah, I got this... I pulled the wintergreen Hamilton out. It smelled great. It felt great. You know, it actually had like a little bit of extra heft because it was made of gold and yeah, it looked great. It was in really good shape. It ran, I think I timed it over 24 hours. It kept time within like six seconds. Oh, that's really good. Yeah. And so after that, you know, terrific experience. Yeah, I was on the hunt. So I, set up an eBay search, you know, solid gold, a few keywords, just keeping my eye out, just watching the market, you know, like you do, like kid, Dan, and this, this vintage Smith's came up. And I'd never heard of Smith's. Well, actually, I guess I had heard of them, but they weren't on my radar. Old British brand, because they're, of course, not actually producing anymore, at least not the original company. And |
| Andrew | Yeah, this one was... Now they're made by a mean old British guy who yells at customers. |
| Evan Kasper | Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's the whole other story. But I looked at this thing and, you know, of course the pictures are super blurry, like they always are. Take it with a flip flop. Yeah, that dial really stood out to me and it was going pretty cheap. So I put a low bid on and lo and behold, I won it. And it made its way across the pond. And if anything, I like that one even more. It was a little nine karat gold Smith's made for again made for presentation. And in pretty dang good shape. With this just beautifully aged dial. I've seen pictures of these new old stock and the dial started out stark white with like applies gold or gilt indices and blue hands. and this one and you can see the pictures of it of course on the article on watch clicker but this one had just aged to this really really attractive kind of golden salmon color and so yeah i i was pretty excited to receive that one and so you know two success stories two out of two wins just stoked the fires even more and uh i don't actually have anything more really on the horizon at the moment because at some point you do have to step back and realize I own multiple solid gold wristwatches and let that sink in. But yeah, it's been a fun experience, I have to say. And I'm really surprised that more people don't pursue it. |
| Everett | There's always room for more, though. |
| Evan Kasper | There is. That watch box holds like 16, and it's not near full. Perfect. |
| Andrew | Well, Evan, let's talk about it, right? So why might a fellow like me, why might a fellow like me want to really start thinking about gold watches? You know, we'll just take a moment here to say Evan's written a great two part series and I think that there's a three part three in the works. Is that that accurate? |
| Evan Kasper | A part three has been published. |
| Andrew | We're looking. Oh yes. Yes. So, so, so three, three part series on gold watches on watch clicker called the case for gold part one. uh part two part three and and the the pictures of the smiths uh are in the part two um why might a fellow like me you can find those at watchclicker.com they'll all be linked in the show notes why might i want to buy gold watches give me some reasons for this because i think it's it's one of those things that is kind of obvious on its face but then you start to think about it is this right for me What are some good like sort of objective reasons why I might want to do this? |
| Evan Kasper | Yeah. So I think first, uh, it sort of relies on an interest that you might have in vintage watches and you know, the vintage market has boomed. Interest in vintage has boomed. There's a lot of people interested. Some people just aren't. Uh, if you're one of those who is interested, um, I think solid gold presents, uh, a case of intrinsic value, you know, that the metal in that case is always gonna be worth something literally intrinsic value. Right? There's there are millions of plated watches out there millions of brass watches, chrome plated, whatever vintage that gets sold a dime a dozen that don't have a lot of value besides what we add to them, you know, as, as you guys have said, with gold i mean there's always that extra bit of interest to it you know the fact that this is made out of a precious metal and therefore it just sort of to me elevates the whole piece a little bit in value to to myself anyway um it just sort of adds a little bit of extra x factor you know to what otherwise might be just a another run-of-the-mill vintage watch um |
| Andrew | I don't get that you're suggesting any sort of investment quality, but there's something to that end there, right? Where you're not just putting your money into a thing that's valuable because you like it, it's actually valuable. |
| Evan Kasper | Right, right. And at least at this point, I do feel the vintage gold market is undervalued and I don't think you'll regret any money you put into it if you do it wisely, because there's a lot of interest in vintage, which naturally engenders interest in vintage dress watches, but still not a lot. The market on gold hasn't exploded yet. I think it's just a Hovinky article or two away from it. |
| Andrew | Or maybe an additional Evan Kasper of Watch Clicker article. |
| Everett | Perhaps. Are you seeing that the amount of gold in these watches, that that's really what you're buying? You're buying the precious metal as opposed to the watch itself in the way of pricing for these watches? |
| Evan Kasper | In some cases, yes, that is correct. Of course, it depends on the carat value of the case, you know, and 18 carat gold is, I think, 75% gold and then 25% filler metals, usually copper and silver or nickel. And, uh, so the carrot count, uh, makes a difference. But in a lot of cases, if you're doing your research and you're, uh, able to get some good deals that, and they can be had, you can acquire these for like, honestly, very close to just scrap value. Cause that's a lot of times that's all that they're going for. |
| Andrew | The fact that it's in a watch actually takes away from the value, right? |
| Evan Kasper | Yeah, practically does. You have to melt it down first. |
| Everett | How much into metallurgy did you get in looking into precious metal watches and making determinations on the types of watches that you were going to be looking at, acquiring, and to determine kind of the value that you're getting out of that watch against what you're paying? |
| Evan Kasper | So a little bit, I mean, you have to, you have to be smart. The Smiths is nine carat, nine carat is three eighths actual gold, right? So when you think about it, it's actually more filler metal than gold. And at first I was like, ah, is that really worth it? How much better is that than plated actually? But, uh, in the case of the Smiths, it sold itself on other, in a lot of other ways to me. But yeah, that definitely is something to keep in mind because you know, a 10 carat gold Hamilton. or a nine carat gold Hamilton, for instance, that's going to have, oh boy, here's math. What like half the actual quantity of gold that an 18 carat would. |
| Andrew | Yeah. |
| Evan Kasper | Yeah. So, you know, that'll, that'll explain some of the higher prices you see for that 18 carat stuff. And personally, that high a carat count that that gold starts getting really soft, especially around the lugs and the spring bar holes. You start seeing some pretty good wear there. |
| Andrew | Well, let's talk about that real quick because I think that that's an important part of this conversation. When we're talking about, you hear a lot of phrases get thrown around, gold-plated, gold-filled, obviously solid gold. I think at least in terms of gold-plated, and solid gold. I think people have a good idea kind of what those mean. But actually, in practice, what are we talking about with those three terms? |
| Evan Kasper | Sure. So with plated, we all know what that means. You know, an electroplating process that deposits a one or two micron thick layer of gold or some other color onto a base metal. Filling is a different process that applies a thicker coating, thicker as in you know, I should have checked this, but I'm thinking 10, maybe 10 to 20 microns. Okay, so it won't wear through as fast, but it's still not an actual quantity of precious metal. There is also gold capped, which is used a lot more rarely. And that actually has a discrete like a layer of gold on it that's actually thick enough to come comprise of some amount of precious metal. But that's also deposited on a base metal. And then of course, solid is all is solid the way through. I for myself, I try and just avoid plated, you know, plating wears, especially on vintage, especially, you know, where's where sweat has been trapped and stuff that'll start eating away at that at that plating and even at the base metal. And I just, you know, especially with any kind of vintage watch or any watch in general, I think it should look better with age. Age and wear shouldn't reveal an uglier aspect of it. It should hopefully just add character to it. And so that's why plating is something I would just or even filling is something that I would kind of just recommend avoiding. |
| Andrew | Unless you really want that look, right? Because I think there's some Tag Heuer, like the Tag 1000s that I can think of, which are plated. I believe the Tag 1000s are plated, or even the Heuer 1000s. And those sometimes patina, I think, attractively. But you've got to know what you're looking for, and you've got to have an expectation that that's going to happen, right? |
| Evan Kasper | Right. Right. Yeah. And you know, different strokes for different folks. If, if that sort of look is your thing, that's great. But, uh, for myself, I just like the way it looks when you get that, when the corners get a little rounded, you know, the edges get a little worn down and it's still that nice shiny gold underneath. |
| Andrew | Sure. Sure. Sure. And, and what about the different, uh, carat values too? So you, we've talked about nine carat, we've talked about 18 carat, obviously twice as much. gold content in 18 karat upwards towards 75% of the case metal. What are we looking at in terms of options in that range? I would assume that 18 karat gold watches are harder to find, probably significantly harder to find in good quality or in good condition. Are generally the watches that you're looking at in the lower karat range? |
| Evan Kasper | I kind of varies 18 carat almost always carries a much higher price tag just because of that. So we're talking, you know, multiple $100 more on average, just because that's the value of the metal in that case. 14 carat seems to be a pretty nice middle ground, you're looking at just over half gold content in the case. So you do have a majority precious metal case. And it's still pretty tough and very widely available. Lots of companies made 14 carat watches. 18 carat are also very common. Those would usually be your Omegas or Longines, you know, some of the higher end Swiss luxury brands. 12 carat exists. I've only ever seen Hamilton's. 10 carat also exists, and that's not uncommon. 9 carat is rarer than you might think. I mostly find these old smiths to be nine carat when I find gold smiths. |
| Everett | It seems to me that that 14 carat range is kind of the sweet spot because you're getting the you're getting the precious metal, you're getting that coloration, you're getting a gold watch but also with fillers that are going to give it some durability because gold is soft. You like I can't imagine an 18 and 24 karat gold case really having any kind of longevity in the way of durability. That's like very much a dress only watch. You got to be really careful with it because I would imagine that a metal that soft is going to really take some abuse. Is that what you see when you're looking in this vintage market that these higher carat watches are either in immaculate like basically new old stock or just like fucked up like look like they went through the lawnmower. |
| Evan Kasper | Yep. Yep. That, I'd say that's an accurate representation. So yeah, that, that 18 carat stuff, it's either, yeah, it's either pretty good. very sharp and consequently very expensive or yeah it looks blobby you know the the edges are so worn down from years especially around the crown because these are all hand-wound mostly right so you're winding it every day and you actually that finger motion will actually wear down gold around that side of the case like an old wedding ring it's flat on the on the bottom yeah yeah yeah well well i think that that actually uh sort of |
| Andrew | Brings us into another idea here. I think that one of the reasons you might want to look at vintage gold is because by way of the precious metal value of these things, people are probably more careful with them on balance than they would be with a Seiko 6309 or whatever, right? That's steel and meant to be banged around a sport watch, right? These gold watches have something about them that's going to make people be more, more careful. Would you say that's accurate? And would you say that that's a place to sort of think about as you're looking at these things? |
| Evan Kasper | Yeah, for sure. So, you know, I'd say the majority of what you see on the used on the vintage market are dress watches, right? Because they're the ones that got put in the drawer and taken out for a wedding or for Easter, you know, whatever, worn sparingly. Yeah. So that that's for that goes for gold or anything else. Vintage sport watches are cool, but when they're not just completely beat to crap, they are very expensive. So, yeah, if you're inclined to wear a dress watch, which I think more of us should be, especially because I think they can take a lot more than we credit them. Yeah, these these are a good buy. in that respect. |
| Andrew | Well, what about some pitfalls? Okay, so I've listened to Evan talking about gold watches, telling me I'm stupid for not having bought a bunch of them already. I've read his articles. I read his articles. What do I need to look out for? |
| Evan Kasper | Okay, so first off, case polishing. You know, everyone wants a different shot. Some people like it, some people hate it. But when it looks like someone's taken a Dremel tool to it, you know, and gotten it so mirror smooth, and so shiny, but you also see it's at the expense of every sharp angle on that thing. That's, that's something to look out for another big one that I've seen, and this is especially on gold. So many of these have engraved case backs, right? Because a lot of times they're for presentation. And I guess it bothers some people enough that they'll grind out that inscription on the back. |
| Andrew | And meanwhile, they remove all the water resistance and hundreds of dollars of precious metal value. |
| Evan Kasper | Right. And, you know, those case backs aren't made any thicker than they have to be. You know, those, those case makers aren't giving you extra gold just for nice. So that can compromise even the integrity of that case. So those are those are two things to look out for where on the lugs on the inside of the lugs is another big one. Because and I don't know why but every almost every single vintage gold watch I've seen for sale and indeed the ones I bought have come on those gold tone, stretchy spot is it Spydel or Spydel? |
| Andrew | Yeah, yeah, the TwistoFlex. |
| Evan Kasper | Yep, yep. Super popular. I'm sure they're super comfortable, but also that is a sharp steel edge rubbing on the inside of that lug. |
| Andrew | And the steel is going to win every time. |
| Evan Kasper | Yep. Yep. It's just carving that out. And yeah, you can see some pretty horrific looking stuff. Uh, dial is a big one. Of course, you know, redials are everywhere. Uh, touch retouched dials are everywhere as well, especially in like 1940s and earlier models. A retouched dial, that's a little bit more of a point of opinion. If it's done well, professionally, it's maybe passable, but there are so many horrible hand-lettering jobs on vintage Omegas. It's kind of funny to see a nice gold watch, zoom in, and it looks like a two-year-old wrote on the dial. |
| Andrew | Yeah, and how do you catch that? Do you just ask the seller for a picture not taken with a potato of the dial? |
| Evan Kasper | Now you got to make do with potato, man. This is, it's a hard world out there. You just zoom in on that and try and unblur it by crossing and uncrossing your eyes. |
| Andrew | You need that Tom Cruise enhance feature. |
| Evan Kasper | It's usually pretty obvious. I mean, especially Omega. I don't know why particularly Omega, but it's pretty easy to spot the hand lettering of the word Omega and sort of the slightly crooked cursive Seamaster on the bottom. And especially if a dial is super clean, like, think again, because very few dials actually survive, you know, 50, 60, 70 years of wear and being in drawers and stuff. |
| Andrew | and come out looking like they're brand new that that usually means a clean dial and a cleaned cleaned dial usually means a retouched dial yeah and if it and if it's clean and you can afford it uh you're either getting a fantastic deal or you're just getting you're just getting you're getting it you're getting it yeah that's exactly right yeah embrace a little dirt little discoloration all right so you convinced me i want to buy a gold watch nice I've decided I want somewhere between nine and 14 karat gold. I want to spend not so much that my wife is going to stab me while I'm sleeping. What are some good, what are some good watches, some good watches, some entry points for me to get into this hobby? You know, maybe two or three places that I can start to look for my first gold watch. |
| Evan Kasper | You bet. And this is this is one of the fun parts for me, because so many of these old brands back in the 60s, the 50s, 40s, they were making stuff in America, you know, Waltham, Elgin, some of these American brands, those watches are made in the USA as genuinely as it comes. And that's just not something you can get anymore. Right? Hardly. And so those two brands in particular, those are good good ones to look for. Waltham, there are some caveats, of course, Waltham was sold to a European conglomerate in the 50s. Oh, yeah, yeah, they ruin everything right. And change the logo so you can tell post sale Waltham by like a little kind of like eagles, sort of a glycine looking logo. Avoid those. The old 1940s and earlier Walthams are solid, made in the USA, and they're pretty well-made watches. I got one in recently. I just set it up to test the accuracy. I had no service records or anything. Wound it up, you know, about 16 or 17 winds, and the thing went and ran, I think, 49 or 50 hours. Yeah, that's what you texted. |
| Andrew | You messaged us at about 50 hours. You're like, still going? |
| Evan Kasper | Yeah, I couldn't believe it. Like how many entry level watches today have a 50 hour power reserve. So, uh, yeah, the answer is zero. Yeah. Very few. I mean, especially with sake of not being entry level anymore, but that that's a whole other conversation. So yeah, I like America. I like American made things. I like the idea of an American watch. I really like what some of these brands are doing, you know, Veyr and them that are doing American assembly. That's really cool to see that come back. And like to be able to get one of the progenitors, you know, the early American made watches. That's a pretty cool experience to me. |
| Everett | It could also be one of the best words ever used on the show. Progenitors? Yeah, that might be it. |
| Andrew | Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Evan. So thank you for joining us for this episode. |
| Everett | Uh, so, so we've got a couple of brands to look for, but what are, what are you looking for? So my assumption is eBay is, is really the, the best place to be looking for these watches. Um, what are you looking for in when you, when you hit your eBay search? So your, your keywords that you said you set up alerts for were like solid gold, vintage watch. And so I pulled up, I searched solid gold vintage watches, and then filtered it by ending now, and I found a vintage Hamilton masterpiece, 10 karat gold, filled, self-winding automatic. It's got 12 hours left, so who knows where it's gonna go, but right now it's sitting at $136.50. Everett Hit Place bid. Unfortunately, I wasn't logged in. I did, I did do that. But I mean, I'm probably 35 watches deep before I'm getting into even a filled gold case because of all the other keywords that are being used in these eBay posts. What are you using in your search criteria to find the right things? |
| Evan Kasper | Yeah, that's a really good question because my eBay search is the result of a lot of refining and yeah, wading through garbage and junk. So One thing that's really handy, just a note about eBay, is you can exclude search terms in your search if you just put a hyphen in front of it. So for me, the biggest thing is excluding terms like filled, plated, plate, tone, RGP for rolled gold plated, G.F. gold filled, Coors is one you want to avoid showing up in your search, because there are a billion gold-toned Michael Coors watches on eBay, electroplated, rolled, gold-filled. So I'm usually just searching for either solid gold or often just the carat value, 14k, 18k, and so on. That seems to, and then excluding those other terms, seems to give you the best results. But again, And you know, some of the some of the way you make out well on eBay is finding those listings with a poorly worded title, right? |
| Andrew | Right. |
| Evan Kasper | Yeah. Miss out on some on other people's searches. So if you're really dedicated to finding something and getting a really good deal, you probably will be wading through some garbage. |
| Andrew | Yeah. So so being willing to be a little patient and read and read the listing and |
| Evan Kasper | patience is the key. Yeah, especially when you're looking for gold, because, you know, so often it like four out of five things on a given watch will look good. But then there's that one thing that said, you know, whether it be there isn't a shot of the movement, or the crown is a little wonky looking or that dials got some obvious, you know, retouching elements on it. It's best to just step away, just wait till you find something that hits everything satisfactorily. Because in almost any case, when it comes to buying a vintage watch, unless you're really sure of yourself, no watch is usually better than a watch. |
| Everett | And my last question, are you sending your watches out for servicing or do you have someone local to be doing your servicing? |
| Evan Kasper | Oh, yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. Because that's, that's really important. And like, this is advice for anyone searching for any vintage watch. Like, when you buy buy with a service in mind. So service for me, I have a watchmaker that's it's local by rural Missouri standards, which is to say about two and a half, three hours away. |
| Everett | New Jersey. |
| Evan Kasper | That's right. I'm a New Yorker. So that is super important. I found find a watchmaker you trust. Go off a recommendation, be really careful about just picking someone out of the blue. When I buy, I know a watch service is going to be anywhere from for a three hand, you know, not needing any parts, fingers crossed, probably anywhere from 150 to $200 from the guys I use. And so when you're shopping, when you're looking, add that to whatever that price is, and ask yourself if you're still willing to go for it, because it will, it will need service. I mean, honestly, you should get it serviced, even if it isn't showing any obvious problems, just to make sure that those, you know, 50 6080 year old mechanical parts aren't rubbing against each other where they shouldn't be. And make sure it'll continue to run well. So yeah, that really can't be overstated when you're looking for vintage, especially vintage gold. |
| Andrew | Well, Evan, that's awesome. You know, we're probably going to transition here, but I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you about another watch project, watch sort of group that you're involved with. And this is a group that's kind of close to the show just because It was sort of founded in the early days of the show from some folks that are kind of in our community. But I know you're involved, at least a participating member of Man on Time. Can you tell us a little bit about what Man on Time is, how you got involved in Man on Time, its origins, and what that is? |
| Evan Kasper | Yeah, sure. So Man on Time is a watch forum started back 2019. uh sort of an offshoot of what you seek uh you know the mods there can be known to be a little heavy-handed at times yeah and uh some popular threads got locked particularly the the famous heads up i saw a bargain here thread you know we all like to find bargains so then when that was locked we all panicked and uh one one stalwart member created his own forum his handle was man on time matt a great guy started this forum with a focus on deal hunting and just a nice little watch enthusiasm community, you know, not looking to monetize, not looking to, or not monetize heavily, not looking to be the biggest player on the field, but just be a real friendly, welcoming sort of place, also known for finding the best deals on watches in the biz. |
| Andrew | So, which is sort of, which is sort of exactly what we do. Exactly what you do. It's sort of what, what the, the start of 40 and 20 was very much in the spirit of everything that's happening here. So big, big fan of that. Shout out to our friend Graham, AKA Sporkboyofjustice, uh, who was also in that sort of opening group, big contributor over there. Uh, I know he, I think he maybe got wind that you were coming on the show today. and pinged me about a plug. Not in any sort of nefarious way, but it seemed like a great opportunity to talk about that. |
| Evan Kasper | Yeah. Shout out to Graham. He's a great guy. And there's a lot of fans of 40 and 20 in that community as well. |
| Andrew | And so that's manontime.com, right? |
| Evan Kasper | Manontime.com. Yep. |
| Andrew | Fantastic. Andrew. Andrew. Other things. What do you got? |
| Everett | I watched a show today. |
| Andrew | I love it when the other things start this way. |
| Everett | And I, what is happening? |
| Andrew | Are you going to Google your? |
| Everett | No, I had, I had it up, but I went to the, I have a bunch of tabs up and when you use an iPhone, I'll explain this to you, Evan, and you go to your tabs on your browser, If you hit a next thing, you can choose what you can screen mirror. I've never done that on accident before. |
| Andrew | I didn't understand a word you said. Can you please, for the love of God, talk about your other thing? |
| Everett | So I watched a show today. It's a History Channel miniseries. Well, it's not a miniseries. It's a History Channel series. It was a miniseries for me because there was only a limited amount of them on Hulu called The Food That Built America. Man. I saw that tile and I was like, yes, I'm in. And what it shows is the, in a very history channels, half reenactment, half interview state, like interview forum, uh, production shows the way that food changed post civil war. So what it does is it captured, it kind of, it cues in right at the very end of the civil war when there was this huge urbanization movement with the industrial revolution. And people hated the food that they were eating because they were eating all this like rancid food that wasn't meant to be stored because it was sitting in the back of a shop, but they couldn't like grow their own food anymore because they're living in cities because they're working in factories. And it shows the, uh, The development, the innovation, the evolution of the food industry in America, and then ultimately globally, because during World War Two, the United States was basically the only producer of food. So it became one of the leading exports of the United States. It tells the story of the beginning and the track of McDonald's. It tells the story of the Hershey and Mars bar, like the Mars company's pathways, bird's eye frozen foods, like all these things that you just take for granted, like, oh yeah, whatever it's a packaged food. But you don't realize like these were these huge titans of industry who were making like as much money as Rockefeller, but were never given the same prestige because they were just making food. Boring. It was fascinating. I really, really enjoyed it. I just sat on my couch and I was like, I didn't know any of this. That sounds awesome. You know, the McDonald brothers, they founded McDonald's and then this like, this really cunning salesman comes in. Michael Keaton. Yeah. This really cunning salesman comes in and is like, I'll franchise this for you. I will manage all of it. And then like two years later, he steals it. Yeah, he steals this thing. And, you know, M&Ms are for Maury and Mars. Like it's the it's it's the son of the Mars company founder who partnered with one of the Hershey brothers to create M&Ms. And they weren't seen in the United States, even though they were being produced for several years prior to their explosion in the United States because they were being put in rations to go over to Europe for for soldiers. fucking Heinz was making glider wings during World War Two, like just fascinating stuff. Amazing. So that's my, my, my other thing, uh, the show, the food that built America. It's a history channel special. Uh, you can find it on the Hulu and I highly recommend it if you're, uh, listening to this podcast, because if you are, you are the same level of nerdy as we are. |
| Andrew | And you are the same level of as nerdy, same level of nerdy as we are. I know you are. |
| Everett | Yeah. You're listening to the show. We just make it. |
| Andrew | I've got another thing. Do it. So I started a new show. This is a show I've seen the tile for, for so, so, so long on, on different, uh, on, on different outlets. And I've never taken a shot. And then my wife finally sort of, she had to kind of talk me into it. I don't know why it was just, it was just one of those things. I was like, eh, because it doesn't look good. |
| Everett | The tile doesn't make it look good. The synopsis doesn't make it look good. |
| Andrew | I just didn't want to watch it. So I started, I started a, uh, a show that's got three seasons now. Um, and I started at the beginning, unlike my friend Pete, who started at season three and watched it backwards. Odd Pete. Weird thing to do. Uh, shout out to Pete, chilling with watches, my homie. Love that guy. Uh, I started, I started at season one. Main character, Bill Pullman, who is fantastic in this. Uh, I, I cannot say enough about his acting in this. Bill Pullman is one of those guys that I've always sort of known. and kind of known about and has completely changed my opinion to the extent I had one. It was maybe a non-opinion before. And now I'm like, Bill Pullman is one of the greatest actors on earth. But it's a show called The Sinner. The Sinner. And this is sort of a crime serial show. It's like many, many, many shows in that there's a crime that gets committed and kind of an obvious answer about what the crime was. And then as the season develops, you learn more and more about the crime. So the reveal is not the crime or even the, the committer of the crime, but the story behind the crime being committed. Very big little lives. Exactly. It is amazing. So season one, Bill Pullman, Jessica Biel, um fantastic you guys so stinking good i am about a third of the way through season two at this point and i am sold i cannot wait to get done with you assholes so i can watch an episode of the center tonight it's one of those shows that's got me like excited i don't want to go to bed like i don't |
| Everett | I love shows like that. |
| Andrew | It's 1045. I know Kim's going to call it. And I'm like, man, I wonder if I start it right now, if I can get her to do another one or at least half of it. Right. Super good. The Center on Netflix. I think all three seasons you can find them on Netflix. Evan, newest staff writer or watch clicker. Other things. What do you got? |
| Evan Kasper | All right. Other things. I had another thing, and then Andrew inspired a bonus other thing. So I'll get the bonus other thing. |
| Everett | You get two. Yeah, you can have two. Yeah. |
| Evan Kasper | Yeah. I'll claim them. The bonus other thing inspired by Andrew's show there, a book by James Lilacs called The Gallery of Regrettable Food. Highlights from classic American recipe books. |
| Andrew | God dang. I'm picturing like jello molds and botulism salsa. |
| Evan Kasper | You are picturing correctly. So, you know, the fifties and sixties when America discovered preservation methods, basically. |
| Everett | They started to. Boxed mashed potatoes. |
| Evan Kasper | And they went a little nuts with them. You know, that's when you get the jello molds, the aspics, uh, the fat choked meat cylinders, the pink whipped jello desserts. And this book is just pictures from recipe books published by food companies at that time. |
| Andrew | You had me at fat choked meat cylinders. |
| Everett | So I found a website called Lilacs, the Gallery of Regrettable Foods. What's the what's the book? |
| Evan Kasper | It's called the Gallery of Regrettable Food. It's a book. |
| Andrew | So there's a perhaps a website and a book. This is, this is mystifying, Andrew. |
| Everett | It's like the, it's like food porn. Like it was, it was a website that you just scroll through great pictures. And, and they've published a book. I have the book. Oh, you own it? Yeah. I've made several things out of it. They're all very good. |
| Evan Kasper | The gallery of regrettable food. Great read. Makes you glad that you're not living back then anymore. Yeah. Um, The other other thing, my main other thing also happens to be a book. Uh, you guys need to read more. So here's a recommendation for you. John Steinbeck travels with Charlie in search of America. |
| Andrew | Not a book I've read. I've read a lot of Steinbeck and I've not read this. |
| Evan Kasper | Uh, Really, really great book. I mean, Steinbeck is definitely my favorite author. I'd say he's up there for me. Yeah. Yeah. Just love his writing style. This book is set in 1960. John Steinbeck is 58 years old. He's nearing the end of his career. He also is nearing the end of his life as it turned out. And I think he kind of sensed that. And so he bought a brand new GMC pickup truck, got a custom made camper shell for it. and took his standard poodle Charlie on a road trip all across the United States. And it's just a book about a road trip and the people he met, the conversations he had, the things he saw. And, you know, of course, he writes with. With just the insight and understanding that his books and his writing was known for, it's just a really easy, enjoyable read, but also a really profound and thought provoking one. |
| Everett | I just bought it. Did you really? Yeah, I just hit the buy now button. |
| Evan Kasper | You won't regret it. Great book. |
| Andrew | Did you get it on paper? Yeah. Can I read it after you're done? No. Boo. I have recently, fairly recently, tried to talk Mike Ryzak, our senior writer, into reading of Mice and Men because I think it is just such a wonderful, wonderful story. And the human beings in that are so tangible. |
| Everett | Uh, it's an American Greek tragedy. It's beautiful. |
| Andrew | And just, I mean, more than that, right? I mean, it's just this. Yeah. Steinbeck's fantastic. |
| Evan Kasper | It really, really good. I'm excited. East of Eden. That's my favorite by him. Just yeah. A real understanding of the human condition and human nature. |
| Andrew | So Evan, thank you so much for joining us. I think that, uh, gold watches is a really fun topic. Uh, I think you probably have a lot more information, uh, than just gold watches, but this seemed like a great opportunity to get you on the show. Introduce you to the folks. Uh, so glad you've joined us to be a writer at watch clicker and, and just otherwise really happy to, to have you on the crew. So thanks man. |
| Evan Kasper | Thanks a lot guys. This has been a real pleasure. And, uh, you know, I've been a long time listener of the show. Never really expected I'd be here, but a lot of fun. |
| Everett | Dreams do come true. |
| Andrew | Evan, people can find you at i.cortman, C-O-R-T-M-A-N on Instagram. Anything else you want to say before we go? |
| Evan Kasper | I think that's it. |
| Andrew | Andrew? I'm out. I'm out of things. Okay. Hey, thank you guys for joining us for this episode of 40 and 20, the Watch Clicker podcast. You can check us out at watchclicker.com. Literally every episode ever published of the podcast is on there. Also articles from guys like Evan who actually write really amazing stuff. Good content. Unlike, unlike what you get on the podcast. If you want to check us out on Instagram, you can do so at 40 and 20 at watch clicker. Also check out i.kortman. If you want to support the show, you can do so on patreon.com. We had some new patrons this week and it just fills my heart with joy and my pockets with money. |
| Everett | Not much because we spend it on things like hosting and hardware and things you don't expect we'd have to spend money on with regularity. |
| Andrew | Don't forget to tune back in next Thursday for another hour of watches, food, drinks, life, and other things we like. |
| Everett | Buh-bye. |