Episode 119 - Valjoux 7750 vs. Lemania 5100
Published on Wed, 03 Feb 2021 21:52:38 -0800
Synopsis
The podcast discusses two iconic automatic chronograph movements - the Valjoux 7750 and the LeMania 5100. The hosts provide detailed background on the development, history, and unique features of these workhorse movements which were industry mainstays for decades. They compare the pros and cons of each movement, touching on factors like durability, thickness, timekeeping layout, and ubiquity across different watch brands. The hosts celebrate these unsung hero movements for their innovative design, affordability, and significance in watchmaking history despite lacking the glamor of some higher-end calibers.
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Transcript
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| Unknown | I thought you were f***ing with me. Hello, fellow watch lovers, nerds, enthusiasts, or however you identify. This is 1420 The Watch Clicker podcast with your host Andrew and my good friend Everett. Here we talk about watches, food, drinks, life, and other things we like. Everett, how are you? So good. Yeah. So good. Yeah. I mean, shit. Everything's just great. It is. It's Tuesday, right? Uh, it is. It is Tuesday. Yes. Yes, sir. It is. Uh, yeah, but I mean, I'm good. I work today. I got some really good stuff done. Um, yeah, that's it. You have a Prius in your yard. I do have a Prius in my yard. Yeah. Uh, it's a not so funny story, but I do indeed. I do indeed have a Prius in my yard, which it's really lucky that happened when your car wasn't in the driveway. Yeah. No, Kim's car was in that spot. Oh, really? Yeah. Like almost destroyed Kim's car. Yeah. So just for you at home and like, what the fuck's going on? Uh, my neighbor, my friend, uh, elderly fellow, elderly fellow, uh, just about in his eighties. He had an accident. We found this out later. Had an accident, fell, hit his head, which caused bleeding, which puts pressure on his brain, which made him not all that capable about four days after the fall. So that exhibited itself yesterday as he drove his Prius into my front yard. And there that Prius sits because in between him driving his car into my front yard and, um, calling triple a, he got towed off to the hospital. Cause his friend came to sort of help him out. And his friend was like, Hey, you're, you seem really weird. We should go to the hospital. You just crashed your car and to the hospital and they went and yeah, there was a bit of time where we didn't know what had happened and kind of panicked because we could also tell he was weird. And then he disappeared off the face of the earth and no one told us. while his front his Prius was in our front yard so tracked him down got a hold of his daughter we're talking she's flying in tonight I think and hopefully gonna come get his Prius out of my front yard he's okay you guys that's important he's okay the Prius is not gonna be so okay this I think it's okay it is high centered on a stump but I took a look underneath all of the all of the exhaust looks like it's in one good shape I took a look at the axle. It kind of came close to an axle, but the axle looks fine. I mean, looks fine, right? There could be something. It's going to be hard to get it off of that stump without causing some belly damage. It's clear. It's clear right now. Oh, so I can hook a toe strap and yank it. Well, I think we need to get that tire. We need to get that tire up. So we're going to do that tomorrow. If he, if AAA doesn't come, I think I would much rather AAA or, you know, whoever, some, some professional do this just because they're going to be, if they don't do it right, they're insured. That's right. Uh, but yeah. How are you, Andrew? Good. We're in the last, the home stretch, as it were, of getting our house onto the market, which meant that today I was up to my nipples in paint. And we had this weird, well, all the things of this house's additions and renovations have just been weird shortcuts. The people were like, ah, close enough. They were very better done than perfect. Deck separate, right? And so one of them, they rather than a flush corner of drywall, they just stacked the drywall on top of the other piece of drywall and then put a piece of door trim against it. Fine. Fine. No, that'll work when you are OK with like three and a half inch door trim. Yeah. So. And then they like bondoed it so it looks like a continuous piece. Yeah. Yeah. So over the course of doing my bathroom remodel a few months ago, I, I destroyed that piece of door trim on accident. I didn't want to find a new piece. So I just said, Oh, fuck it, whatever. So it's been without trim in order to sell this house. I'd like there to be trim up. So, uh, I was looking at that wall that I trying to figure out how to hide the issue. And I was like, fuck it. I'm just going to fix it. So I ripped down a big chunk of wall and redry wall today on a whim. Drywall is the worst. It's not pleasant. It's not as bad as grout, but it's not fun. So I've got drywall up and hanging, paint everywhere. I had a very productive day and I still don't feel like I will ever be done, but we're close. We've almost, we almost got everything done that we wanted to get done. Our photographer is going to come Friday, I think, take pictures of the house. Is this someone you're hiring yourself or is this? |
| Unknown | Our realtor hired. |
| Unknown | Well, good. Have I told you about my new house that needs absolutely no work? No. My next house will need no work. |
| Unknown | Yeah, let's hope so. |
| Unknown | Perhaps the house next to yours. Yeah, so that was interesting. A house came on the market today. It was previously on the market, but the last sale fell through and it's literally 100 feet away from us. Yeah, we could throw rocks at each other. And it's a good house. You guys are going to look at it tomorrow, right? Yeah, we got a showing. Fantastic. But yeah, that's been my, I mean, that's been my life. I've been like waking up, working, coming home, working, going to sleep, working, just a wash, rinse, repeat of work and work and work. So I'm happy to be here. I'm happy you're here too. Yeah. I'm happy you're here too because today we are talking about watches. Two watches specific. Well, two families. Yeah. Like, like 10,000 watches. Two families. Yeah. Cousins. Very extended cousins. Yeah. Or perhaps like competitors. Like evil twins. Like Wario and Mario. Or perhaps Wario and Waluigi. I think that's more appropriate. Yeah, how far can we take this? So, as you know, because you've read the tile on your screen, probably, probably, Uh, today we're talking about two movements, automatic chronograph movements, both of them. I would call them unsung heroes. Uh, and, and I think that's true for one of them more than the other. Uh, but we're talking about the Valjoux Ney Eta. It's the Valjex. The Valjex Ney Eta 7750 and the La Mania. La Mania. La Mania 5100. And there's a good reason. There's a good reason we're talking about these two watches because these two movements, to use Andrew's correction, because, and that is because I am of the opinion, having researched these a little bit, that these are two of the greatest movements ever made. And you're not alone in that opinion. There's cult followings behind both of these movements. And so neither one of them the most famous automatic chronograph movement ever. I think that that honor probably goes to the El Primero. Yeah, I think so. You know, for a number of reasons, and we'll talk about the El Primero a little bit. But these two are sort of the anti-El Primeros. These are, I don't know, what would you say? How would you describe how these fit in the industry? These are the Honda Civic and Toyota Corolla of the industry. That's probably perfect. Yeah, workhorses, right? Reliable, workhorse, moddable, amazing machines. Both of them. Both of them amazing machines. And not a lick of sex to them. Yeah. The sex we generate, right? The sex comes with our attraction to them. There's nothing attractive about them. They are tools. They are just Bangers. Anti-attractive. Yeah. In some ways. Yeah. They, I'm sure they did things like, Oh, that looks terrible. Yes. Roll with that. Roll with that. Well, so to tell the story properly, I think we've got to travel back in time. Hit it. As we, as we are want to do, as we are want to do on this show, we're going to travel back in time for a moment. Uh, and we're going to travel back to a year, a year, one specific year, 1969. Uh, And so this is well before either of these movements are a thing, before either of them are a going concern. And that year 1969 is critical in watches for a couple of reasons. A couple of big things happened in 1969. The first thing that happens is Seiko in May of 1969 starts using their phenomenal 6139 chronograph movement. Mm-hmm. Not that anybody knows, right? Nobody fucking cares because Seiko's Japanese and they're just not in the conversation. And there's also not internet, so people are slow to find out. That's right. So Seiko's got their 6139 operating. And also, sort of simultaneously, we've got Zenith with their El Primero, famously first automatic chronograph, quote-unquote. And also, this big sort of chronomatic group, Buran, Hamilton, Breitling, Hoyer, and a few other companies, are working on the famous caliber 11. And which one of those came first, the caliber 11 or the El Primero? I don't think it's super important. I think, generally speaking, The Biringroup beats them to market with an actual watch, but Zenith is the one who gets the headline first, or early in the year. And really, practically speaking, Seiko beats them all to market. But we've got three automatic chronographs that get released that year. So more on that. Because another really important thing happens in 69. Do you know what it is, Andrew? The very first quartz movements come to market. Which is really interesting that we're seeing a company like Seiko drop a revolutionary movement and think in their big shit about it, and then at the same time drop something that kind of makes that first movement obsolete and truly revolutionizes the watch world. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Two totally different avenues of approach on revolution happening in Japan. Thank you, Seiko. Yeah. Yeah. Quartz. The quartz crisis is not in effect yet. It's building, though. But it happens fucking quick. It happens quick. So in 1969, no one knows it's coming. Maybe some people suspect like, oh, this quartz thing. But but really, nobody's thinking we're not going to be able to sell an automatic movement in two years from right now or five years from right now or whatever. So we've got these three phenomenal automatic chronographs. We've got quartz movements happening, quartz watches coming out. Both La Mania and Valjoux at this time are behind the eight ball. They're late. And aware of it. And aware of it. Very aware. So they're late in the game. Everybody's kind of known about this big caliber 11 group because there's too many players involved to keep it a secret. Zenith has been you know, squawking a lot, at least through 69. Seiko is quietly working in Japan, but the writing is on the wall. Automatic chronographs are here. They're awesome. So these guys are like, we need to get moving. And so they both start working groups to create movements, automatic chronograph movements that will be able to compete in the market. And they've got beat to the gun. And so they're both interested in doing this in a similar way. And I'm not sure if this is marketing genius or if this is just plain old market strategy, whatever. But they both sort of simultaneously, independently decided to develop cheap, quick to make, super accurate, super durable movements right now. I think that was driven by the fact that they were so far behind the game. They didn't have time to do the start everything from scratch development. They needed to take something and they needed to get it to market now. So take what we have, tweak it, and let's find a way to get, get our heads out of our asses right now. Yeah, I think that's right. Well, and there's another thing happening too here in the sixties, right? Which is that, um, movements are getting more expensive, right? As automation becomes significantly more popular, it's, it's bleeding into places like watches, which have typically been a non-automated process. And so, uh, expensive movements are relatively more expensive compared to the competition, and labor on non-automated processes is going up too. So there's a market, there's a demand for less expensive movements, and in fact, movements that both of these companies are using at the time are less popular because of their price. So it's incumbent on these guys to A, be competitive, and B, to make it cheaper, right? So Both seeking to make these streamlined, accurate, tough, servable movements. And spoiler alert, they both generally succeed. They do so in some similar ways with some obvious differences. I think probably the first thing we do is just take a look at one of these watches. Let's do it. You think we start with the 7750? I think we do. And I think the reason we start there is because we've got one in front of us. That's true. Well, I have one in front of me. It's a little off to the side for you, but I've got my Swiss Army F A 18. Uh, love this watch. It's a chronograph. Nobody's ever heard of it. Um, I just love it. I just love it. It's a chunk because it's got a fucking 77 50 in it. I think they're 15 millimeters thick. Uh, yeah, no, this, this more than 15, I think 15 on a good day. Uh, yeah, but he's been eating Twinkies. So, um, I can actuate these now, right? You can, yeah. I've got it. I got the movement serviced. It is actuatable. So the 7750, we actually know a lot more about the 7750 than we do about the 5100. And there's one really good reason for that, which is that the 7750, A, it's been in constant production the entire time that the internet has been alive. So there's been a lot written about the 7750, people who have researched it, Um, but also I think it's generally just the more popular of the two movements, at least in commercial circles. Um, and it kind of, it go, going back to 1969, Valjoux's like, Hey, what's going on? We're behind. And so they put together a crackpot team as it were, the A team. Uh, I think it was the available team. No, no. So it isn't. So they hired this kid named Edmund Kapt. He's 24. He's a total prodigy. He's a computer guy in, you know, 69, basically no one knows computers. This guy is, uh, way ahead of his time in, in terms of his ability to do things on computers. And I say, Hey, will you put together a team? He puts together four folks, uh, a lady engineer. I knew these guys names at some point, but I don't right now. And it doesn't matter. And they say, you know, we want a non high beat, just a standard beat, quick to market, quick to build cheap to build. No column wheel. No column wheel. This is important. No column wheel chronograph. We've got some existing designs. We've got an existing, uh, 7733 mechanical hand wind movement. And we'd like you to start there because that's an existing module we'd like you to develop on top of this. So any number of problems are going to come up, but we've got the benefit of computer aided design now. And really, Kapt is one of the very first guys who is going to dive into that world, has the knowledge. He's young. He's a kid. He's 24. He's one of the only people in the world that has the ability to do what needs to get done here. Valjoux's got one computer, so he's got to travel from his office to the place where the computer is. He's going back and forth. And he designs, over the course of about two and a half, three years, he designs this first computer design movement. based on the Valjoux 7733, which... Not even based on, built from. Built from. Yeah. Which is based, which is an evolution of a famous, famous mechanical chronograph movement, the Venus 188, because Valjoux had absorbed Venus when Venus went down in 1966. So this watch comes to market in 1973 and instantly starts showing up in watches. And it's super popular for about 18 months. Yeah. Because the bottom falls the fuck out in 1975. And interestingly enough, the 7750s trajectory parallels that of its more famous sibling, cousin, colleague, the Zenith El Primero. Rival. Rival. So just like the Zenith El Primero, in 1975, these watches get shit canned. Watches get shit canned because Folks do not want to buy mechanical movement and not just shit canned. They told him they told Cap just destroy it, like get rid of everything. There's no reason to save any of this. Pack it up like not just pack it up and get rid of it. Burn it. Yeah. Get rid of it. What? That's not just like that's that's throw it into the ocean. We've given up. We're not even going to do this anymore. kind of behavior. We quit. For the brilliance of the business planning going into it, this hiccup was one of the most significant knee-jerk reactions I've ever seen. And fortunately for them, he was a little bit calm and said, you know what? We're going to put it on a shelf. I think perhaps insubordinate. My suspicion is not calm, insubordinate. Loyally so. Yeah, he was making a rational decision. Knee-jerk reactions are never right. Never. Never. So he said, I'm not going to set it ablaze. I'm just going to put it on the shelf. And there it laid in wait. So we're in the midst of the courts crisis. Everyone's packing up their shit. No one knows what to do. Valjoux and Etta join in this time. Yeah, because they're like enemy of my enemy, right? And there the 7750 sits until... I imagine he had it on the hutch above his toilet in the bathroom. Like all these dyes, plans. Oh yeah. But enter the 80s. So it's a significant period of time. Five years? Eight years? Yeah, eight years. That this is... It's in a holding pattern. But enter the 80s. And things start to turn. Fanny packs. Yep. Neon green. Jammy jam shorts, tall hair, leg warmers. |
| Unknown | Fuck yeah. |
| Unknown | Screech. Rest in peace. Oh, oh. So enter the 80s. And it's starting to come back. They pull it off the shelf. They dust it off because that's the the down spiral. Now, mechanical watches have joined forces and they've started to remarket themselves, rebrand themselves as luxury items. You want to be cool? You gotta buy a watch that you gotta wind or that'll wind itself, not quartz. And the public comes back too. Yeah. So 1983, I imagine they're at a meeting. In fact, I know I was there. Uh, it's a meeting and they're like, what are we going to do? We don't have any movements. And Edmund Kapt comes in, he's wearing a, uh, he's wearing a baseball cap backwards. He's got like a base, one of those ringer t-shirts on and a flannel shirt rolled up, sleeves rolled up, mid forearm. The logo on the shirt says $77.50. He's like, hey, bitches, guess what? Because what? He's now 30. Yeah, that's right. He's 31. He's got a he's got a joint tucked behind his ear. He comes in and says, hey, guys, look, I got this thing. What do you think? And in 1983, Valjoux reintroduces the $77.50 to market and it explodes. This is quickly and almost immediately the most popular movement on the market. Because it was the only one being mass-produced. It was the only one that was quick to produce, and they sort of postured themselves to be purveyors of movements and not just watch production. That was their whole jam. |
| Unknown | That's right. |
| Unknown | Now they're providing other watch manufacturers with their machines. And now 40 years later, 30, 38 years later, the Valjoux 7750 is still a going concern. It's still in its 7750 stock form found in watches that you can buy on Jomashop, Amazon, Harry Ritchie's Jewelers, whatever. For fairly reasonable prices, given the technology that's there. Anywhere from about a thousand bucks to Significantly more than that. Oh, you can get them and under, under a thousand, you can get into them at like 500 bucks. And the architecture and the art more and more than that, the architecture that Edmund Kapt came up with in the early seventies is still being implemented by other companies. Other companies are taking that architecture and putting their own spin on them. Very, very expensive, luxury haute horology houses are using that architecture. in watches today. Yeah. And it's like the Browning machine gun of movements. Yeah. Or perhaps, perhaps another movement that we're going to talk about later. So we should talk about the architecture a little bit. We should. Yeah. We'll, we'll need to get into that. So I mentioned earlier. No column wheel. Yeah, that's right. I mentioned earlier that that was one of the goals is to get rid of the column wheel. And there's a couple of reasons for that. One is that the column wheel is very expensive to produce. Uh, column wheel chronographs are classic. Uh, and other than that, they've got some, uh, they've got some, some benefits, right? The, the horizontal manner in which a column wheel is laid out is aesthetically pleasing. Um, and, and they do have a certain functional, uh, benefit. They, they are snappier, they're clickier. They're generally probably a little bit easier to compress. Uh, the 7750 sort of eschews that. and gains all sorts of stuff. Efficiency of manufacture, durability, long-term life. You do lose the tactile feedback of the pusher push. Yeah, well, not all of it, right? As I've got one here. You get it, but you really got to work for it. I don't know if you can hear that. Hold on. Here's, I'm going to, I'm going to, I don't know. It's like pushing a G-Shock button. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. A little bit. And this is an older movement. It probably needs to be serviced. So it's probably a little bit, uh, spongy, but, but yeah, you don't get quite the same click as a, as a column. Which, which makes sense because what you're, you're not, you're not actuating the machinery in, in the same way. |
| Unknown | Yeah, that's right. |
| Unknown | It's a, it was a wholly revolutionary design to actuate these additional complications. And you know what else Edmund Capp did? Plastic. Yeah. Plastic, silicone, Delrin, plastics, right? Look, you guys, we're not playing, we're not playing the jewelry maker sweepstakes here. This is let's get movements into watches that are going to do a job, do it for a long time and do it cheaply. Mission accomplished. Yeah. Like George W. Bush. Yeah, like Georgia. So, you know, since then, Hamilton, IWC, Breitling, Omega, Frank fucking Mueller, Hamilton. Did I say Hamilton twice? Twice, yeah. And it doesn't stop there. Obviously, Victorinox, you know, Bolivar, big Tissot, big giant brands are using this movement. Ubiquitous, I think is the right phrase for it. But there's another player. There's another player. And that player is a company called... Can we say one more thing? No. Yeah, say as many things as you want, Andrew. The winding system changed it. The whole thinking behind it was rather than using a bi-directional winding mechanism, and this is a complaint of the 7750, is it's a unidirectional winding. Can we talk about the myth of unidirectional winding inefficiency? Yeah. And I think it's important that we do. For the gears to engage on the rotor of an automatic watch, it has to traverse 15% of a rotation. So 15% of a revolution before it will engage the gears to begin winding, which is, you know, not much, but also, It's horribly inefficient to add that kind of expense and that kind of technology when it can just rotate in one direction. Yeah. You know, there is, I think, a pervasive idea that it's less efficient for unidirectional. And I think that that's probably the piece that people are missing. Yeah. It has to rotate a lot. 15% of a revolution in order just to engage the gears. So just a twist to your wrist that you know, that movement, that motion to check your watch is not going to wind your watch. Yeah, that's right. It's going to take action. I mean, with any automatic winding watch, it takes actual movement to get that rotor spinning. And if you, if you know a watchmaker, call them up and ask them which movement is more efficient, a 2824 or a Miota 9039. Call your watchmaker friend and say, I want to know about winding efficiency. Which is more efficient, a 2824, which is bi-directional winding, or a Miyota 9039, which is unidirectional? Which one's more efficient? And the answer, spoiler, the answer is gonna be Miyota, because it is, right? And 2824 is actually a little bit of a cherry-picked example, but bi-directional winding is not inherently more efficient. No, it's just cooler, and it's a way to charge more money for your movement. Yeah, this is marketing speak. Yeah. So yeah, Edmund Kapt says, I don't need to wind both directions. Just give me one. Yeah. Besides, people are going to shake their wrist anyway, and the balance of that rotor is going to prompt it to spin the right direction. So now we can move on to Le Manier. Le Manier. Le Manier. So at the same time, another Swiss company, a company called Le Manier. Also in ruins right now. Right. Because everyone's winning. So I think, I think. At the time, La Mania is owned by SSIH, and they're making watches for SSIH Group, Omega, Tissot, SSIH Group manufacturers primarily, but also on the general market. They're in the same boat that Valjoux is in 1969. Behind the gun, need a movement. Under the gun? Under the gun? Behind the eight ball? Yeah, something like that. Behind the curve. I'm not the sharpest bull in the garage. I hope so. So, generally considered to have been released in 1978, generally considered, the La Mania 5100 is pretty late to the game. Yeah. Nine years later, nine years later, there's a but. Omega is using the La Mania 5100 in watches as early as 1974. Yeah. And probably 1973. Yeah. Yeah. So not late to the game at all. No, they just found an outlet for their movements. Not late to the game at all. Yeah. We know a lot less about the development of 5100. And I think that's because it was, it, I think Omega was involved in the development in some capacity as to make it proprietary. Clearly. Clearly they're, they're, capturing that information a little bit more carefully, and maybe for good reason, right? Maybe they are weary of competition, they're weary of Valjoux's development, and so they're clearly withholding information in a way that Valjoux didn't, at least long-term. Right. And so we just know less. We know less about how this thing got created. And in fact, until fairly recently, probably early 2000s, people did not know that this watch came out in the 73 or 74. They thought this watch comes out in 78. No, it was living inside some of your favorite Speedmasters. That's right. That's right. So what's different about these two watches? Well, first, what's the same? 5100, lots of plastic. More plastic than the 7750. These guys really liked plastic. They, at every step of the way, are finding innovative, cheap, reliable parts. So, you know, for instance, they use this KIF from the KIF company, a Swiss company, this KIF shock absorber versus the more popular IncaBlock. They're using silicone parts. They're using Delrin parts, lots of Delrin. Um, and, and implementing these great sort of revolutionary materials into an automatic chronograph. Uh, and, and what they do is they produce probably the most durable chronograph in the history of watchmaking. Almost certainly. |
| Unknown | Yeah. |
| Unknown | And long lasting, not just, not just actually like violently durable, but they're still on the road. They're still on the road. Yeah. Indeed. And now by the time this comes out, the 6139 is basically discontinued permanently and forever. The, uh, caliber 11, the Breitling group caliber 11 is taken off the market within a year because it's got some problems with the hairspring and overpowered in one direction and underpowered in another and shit keeps breaking. Zenithal Primero, obviously we know Zenithal Primero still going strong, still going strong. It, it like the, it like the, um, 7750 gets pulled in 1973, 75, excuse me. Yeah. 75 and stored and stored until 1983. Uh, I have the fellow's name, Charles Vermont, a very similar story. This thing gets pulled. Charles Vermont takes all the stuff home. Maybe him and Edmund Kapt were on their cell phones and they were like, yo, Chuck, Yo, Ed, I'm going to take all this shit home. What do you think? He's like, yeah, I'll do the same. Yeah, we'll keep it safe because they're burning everything right now. I got some of these HDX totes $8.99, yo. I'll drop you all the tools and CNC machines. That'd be a good watch brand story. Stole a bunch of proprietary information and started producing watches. You know, La Mania being backed by SSIH. has some abilities to capitalize on, you know, now 6139 is no longer in the equation. And they kind of were never really in the equation because Seiko is really living on an island. But they could also remain in production and eat loss in a way that other brands couldn't. Exactly right. Exactly right. So the caliber 11 gets pulled. And at the same time, this, you know, that Breitling group has sort of evolutions of that, but it's kind of not a player. Zenith has shelved its, its movement. Uh, Valjoux has shelved its movement. So really, La Mania is the player. They're like, look, let's get in here. So they go to Porsche Orifina and they say, Hey, you should use our movement in this really cool Porsche Orifina that's previously had the Valjoux 7750 in it. They go to all these companies, all these fantastic Swiss Companies and they say we've got this workhorse automatic chronograph and these companies who are making workhorse watches that need a chronograph Zen among them are Like hey, yeah, let's we're building military spec'd watches We need them to not get destroyed and they're seeing a big market pump because they filled the vacuum of The need for an automatic chronograph is nobody else was doing it And they're building... I mean, everyone's using it. During this time period, the only automatic chronographs are powered by the 5100. Essentially, right? There's some other movements in the game, but really, this is the player. It's the 5100, this fat, 8.2 millimeters thick, LaMagna 5100. It's in everything. Omega, Zinn, Heuer, Orfina, Tutima, Fortis. Yeah, everyone, everyone. And so what these companies discover is this movement is fucking incredible. It's incredible because of its particular combination of plastics, really sort of utilitarian industrial production means. It's really, really good. And what happens is it develops a relationship with companies. So, you know, famously, Andrew, you mentioned Fortis and Syn, also Tutima. As late as, like, 2001, these companies will only use the LaMagna 5100 automatic chronograph. Purely that movement, and that's it. We're not using other chronograph movements. Which is bizarre for how many are available in the market right now, that there's the they're siloing their design language to that movement. Yeah, that's right. That's right. And the reason they do this, there's a few good reasons for this, right? And some of this is legend. I don't have statistics on this stuff, but there's a popular anecdote that a 5100 movement can withstand 7 Gs of shock. I've heard that. An instant 7 Gs of shock. Because of the way it drives, it's a direct power to the chronograph. With a hit of seven G's, the sweep on the second hand doesn't stop. And as far as I know, it's the only chronograph movement in existence then or now that can do that. Seven year service interval, service interval, which is really good. It's really good by today's standards was amazing. That's basically never serviced for an 80s produced watch. That's right. By 1973 standards, I mean that is out of this world good. And so these companies are like, we can't send anybody out to the field with anything but this. This is the only watch that meets our military specifications. The only movement, excuse me. And they were pumping them out? Pumping them out. They sold a fuck ton of them. Maybe not as ubiquitous as the 7750 because of that eight-year gap though, damn close. And the relationship with these utilitarian tool watch companies, Zinn and Fortis and Tutima, certainly more ubiquitous in that military space. I think that workhorse banger of a movement limited it. I think it could have been as ubiquitous as the 7750. But I think because of its target, market, it lost out on the other opportunities. So, sadly, and much to the chagrin of the military watch community, La Mania discontinues the 7750 by... 5100. Yes, the La Mania 5100 by about 2003-2004. |
| Unknown | It's gone. |
| Unknown | There's some genetic successors. I think probably the most significant one that I read about is the ETA C01.211. I don't know a lot about ETA chronographs, but it's a genetic successor, but it misses the most important thing, and we haven't mentioned this yet. One of the things that makes the 5100 so special is the central seconds hand. So unlike basically every chronograph that implements a minute hand that tracks your chronograph time. So it's a four-hander, as that were. I think it's actually a six or seven-hander. Seven. Seven-hander. But one of those hands is a central chronograph minute counter. And Etta's done this with some modifications, as well as Etta, or as well as some other famous companies, right? So we see central minute counters. Oftentimes they're clicky. This is just another minute hand that operates off the chronograph module on the center, which makes timekeeping significantly easier and more accurate. Instead of having 30 minutes, you've got 60 minutes. And so all you have to do is look down, you've got a clearly designated minute hand that's keeping her chronograph time. So now you have seconds centralized and minutes centralized, which is a boon. I mean, if you can imagine using one of these in the field, that's a fantastic thing. Yeah. under any amount of stress. Yeah, that's it. It's a really cool movement. You know, I know some guys who will run in a chronograph and I have run in a analog chronograph before. I don't find it particularly pleasing because when you're running, everything's shaking. You look down and you cannot read a subdial minute hand. You just can't do it. So having that is really an effective thing. So this new caliber C01-9 dot 211, excuse that. And so there's some, there's maybe a sentiment that that's actually an evolution of the 5100. They've made it more durable, more robust, cheaper yet. But I think really you get rid of the thing that makes the 5100 so cool. |
| Unknown | Yeah. |
| Unknown | And other than that, it's gone. 5100 is no longer a going concern. Digital. In light of the mandated title for this episode, I think we should talk pros and cons. Oh yeah, we should. We should get there. Because I don't think there's a clear winner. I think our versus title that we've given you is probably a bit of a red herring. |
| Unknown | I think so. |
| Unknown | This is really a celebration of both of these movements. Yeah. But I think it's okay to talk about, you know, the pluses and minuses of either. Um, I think we could start with a really simple one in favor of the 7750. You can still get it. Brand new in box. You can still today get a 7750. Now 10 bajillion 5100s were sold and you can still find parts. They can still be serviced. They can still be repaired. You will be able to find parts for 5100s from now until the end of time. That's not a concern. Yeah. But what you can't do is you can't pick up a brand new 5100 movement and plop it in your watch. True. I think that's a point for the 7750. I think that's a big point for the 7750. It survived. Now, many of the 7750 iterations that are available are either cost prohibitive or suck. From my looking into them, there weren't many out there that were particularly appealing, maybe just to me. You mean today? Yeah. Yeah, in the way of brand new in-box watches. Now, there were some that were quite appealing, but they were also $12,000. Yeah. So... Yeah, which is interesting because another point we're going to give the 7750 is its relative thinness to the 5100. Yeah. If you don't remember, the 5100 comes in at a whopping 8.2 millimeters. Well, the 7750 smokes it. Yeah. at 7.9 millimeters. Both like that. Was that the call that Mike reviewed for Timebomb at the Globe? Right. There's no way to read it. It's just a space watch. It's just a watch, yeah. It's just a lump of metal and glass on your wrist. Yeah, that's what they look like. Yeah, well, and that's true. So these are both really, by today's standards, chunky movements. some good reasons for that, right? Part of their utility and part of their, uh, usefulness is the ability to work on them. And part of that is that you're not cramming things in and the indelicacy of the parts used, but yeah, big watches, man. Yeah. And the, being that big, it, a pair of tweezers and, and you can service this watch. Yeah. Right. It's like a Ford three 51 seat, you know, you just sort of hop in the, you hop in the, canopy and pull the alternator out or whatever, right? Yeah. So, a thing we just talked about, 5100 uses central minutes. Really cool. The layout, I think, generally favors a 5100. Yes. But, and that, the 5100's layout is preferable to all other chronograph layouts. Perhaps. Ever. In the way of functionality, readability, it is superior. And both the 7750 and the 5100 have had multiple iterations, but generally the layouts are the same across the models. And that central secondhand, or excuse me, central minute counter on the 5100, I think is a significant advantage. That's a big 5100 point. Even though 77 mods can replicate or come close to replicating that function today. Another point for the 5100? Way tougher. Yeah, I mean the 7750 is a robust movement by all accounts easy to work on I've read watchmakers describe it as a Pleasure quote-unquote pleasure to work on. I think 5100 gets the same treatment They just don't have to work on 5100 as often. No because if you've if you've damaged your 5100 it's it's Irreprobably, so it's a fucking tank. It was the pre g-shock g-shock In some really significant ways, yeah, I think that's right. I think that's right. This was the original tool chronograph. And for good reason. Both movements come with Day-Date functions. I think that the 5100 is easier to implement. I don't know, that really gets me excited. Both wind in one direction, so that's a tie. And both are really fucking ugly. Yeah. Both are really ugly. They're both huge. They're 1980s Civic and Corolla respectively. That's right. So take your pick. Do you want the Accord or do you want the Corolla? You can only have one. Me? You can only have one. You know, I think I'd go 5100. |
| Unknown | Corolla. |
| Unknown | Yeah. You're a Toyota man. I appreciate that about you. I'm also a Toyota man. I'm also a Toyota man. I actually, in researching for this episode, found myself lamenting the loss of 5100 something. I've never, it's never occurred to me to lament. I'm sad. Hopefully they just put it on a shelf. Yeah. Hopefully Chuck still got it above the bathroom. He's just toddling around his house. Just lamenting again that they've taken his project from him. Well, Andrew, I've exhausted my notes for this episode. What about you? That's, I mean, we've hit all the high points. We've hit what we wanted to hit. We celebrated these two huge movements. And I think our, for the watch community, have cult followings, which is like, that's ultra cult following. But largely in the watch world, I think people are aware of these movements and aware of the significance of these movements, but not fully aware of just how significant they both were. And how lucky we are to have had them. Because they almost did not survive. But for just a couple assholes who were like, nah. And in the case of the 7750, to have them. Yeah. To have them, right? You know, there's a there's a fellow in the Bay Area who I've run into at a couple meetups. And he's a great guy. Fantastic watch collector. But one of the first things he ever said to me had to do with the 7750 and how it sucks because it's huge. And I can appreciate that in some meaningful ways. But with that said, it's sort of one of a kind. Still today, if you want a cheap automatic chronograph, you're probably looking at a 7750. Yeah. And they're not cheap. Yeah, that's right. That's right. And you can get them in cheap watches, right? I think in particular, the used market for 7750s, there are some gems to be had. And same for 5100, right? That's not a one-way street. I was thinking cheap in the way of connotation. They're inexpensive. Oh, yeah. And you're gonna get a lot of value knowing that that's what's powering your watch. Yeah, I do personally. I'm a big fan. |
| Unknown | Yeah. |
| Unknown | Yeah, you love that watch. It's not, I mean, it's not a particularly attractive watch. You know, everybody hates this watch. But it's a cool watch. I love it. Yeah. I bought it. It was sort of an impulse buy. It's my second least favorite watch you have. is my least favorite, the titanium G? |
| Unknown | Yeah. |
| Unknown | And these are two, they're probably two of my favorites, right? These two and the, uh, and the Pulsar. Yeah. I love the Pulsar. I don't like the titanium G and that just doesn't, that just doesn't do it for me. I like the watch. It's cool. I, I, I see, I see what you see in it, but it doesn't do it for me. Yeah. You know, you know, this watch is very much so just again, talking about the FA 18 Victorinox, This is not part of the Victorinox Professional line, which was a thing in the late 90s, early 2000s, I think. This is not part of that Victorinox Professional line, but it's very much in line with that Pro line. I think that this was probably about an $1,100 watch when it was new. You can pick them up for $500 to $700, probably a little bit more on a bracelet today. I bought it and I was like, That's a 7750 in a great-looking package. It's compact. It's about 39 millimeters, maybe 38 millimeters. Oh, it would be so great if it had a thin movement in it. If this had an El Primero, it would be sick. Oh, jeez. I actually kind of like the chunkiness. You know, I've been wearing it on this gray pebble, sort of a charcoal pebble from Cascadia Strap Company, our friends in Portland. Um, and it wears really well on this strap, but I think I might put it on a NATO for a couple months, maybe a black NATO or something. Um, just to just to more presence. Yeah. Yeah. Well, uh, you know, that's, that's a concern, right? Um, I don't mind it. Right. I don't mind the chunkiness and, and really it's compact enough that it's not particularly huge. It fits under my shirt sleeve, so I don't have anything else, buddy. That's it. We've covered it. We did it. Welcome to the world of the 7750 and the 5100. You know, we're not, we're not experts at anything, right? No, we're not even good at our real jobs. I'm an expert on real property law. Andrew is an expert on law enforcement. And outside of that, we know shit about shit. I can, I can drink a good beer though. So there's a chance we got some stuff wrong. We certainly mispronounced names. We probably got years wrong at some point. Uh, feel free to chat with us if it's important, we'll make the correction. Um, or just to say, Hey, there's more to this story and you guys missed it. We love that. Uh, and if it's appropriate, we will, we'll update this, this, uh, this episode or we won't Andrew other things. What do you got? I got a new thing and it's something that has, uh, something of the like has been in my targeted advertising and it's been in my, uh consciousness for some time um but with all the trim work that i've been doing uh i finally got a tool that i've been kind of like intrigued by and is it a fest tool no uh and kind of excited about getting but just haven't really had the reason to buy it i got a contour duplication cage tell me more so what it is okay i can see it they can't see it it is a ruler with some free sliding teeth. Like, it's a comb, basically. And what you do is you take this ruler and you press it. No, imagine the things you used to play with as a kid. For those of you who were kids in the 90s, that metal box that you put your hand in and then you turn it over and it held the mold. Yeah. Okay, it is that. In two dimensions. In two dimensions. for the purpose of measuring strange shapes and angles for which to cut things around. |
| Unknown | Oh, I'm feeling you. |
| Unknown | So what you do is you just place it against the weird object that you're having to cut against, you create the mold, you pull it back, you use that mold as a stencil on your material, and you cut it. And I got one at Lowe's, I got just the cheap right there on the shelf at Lowe's, like 16 bucks. You can find nicer ones that lock and that are a little bit more robust for probably 20 to 30 bucks, but they're not an expensive tool. Uh, they're, they're a fun tool cause they're cool to just play with because all of us remember putting your hand on that metal pin thing and then your face on that metal pin thing and, and forming it to your face. So that's what I have now, but for adults, yeah. Yep. Uh, So that's what we have now. And I used it to cut some threshold covers for tile to hardwood transition. I used it to cut some trim pieces. I used it a lot. I used it on things that didn't need used on today. That's right. That's a 45, Andrew. Yeah. No, I'm familiar with that cut. My miter saw locks at that angle, but I'm going to stencil that shit and use a circular saw. So yeah, that's that's my other thing. The one that I've seen a bunch of ads, but I just I got the Lowe's special. I have here pulled up from a company called Smart Sacker. Sacker. That's what it is. Sacker. And I think this is I think this is the one that I've had all the targeted ads for. And honestly, it seems superior to the one that I have. It's a it's a little bit more robust. It locks in place, which is nice. Yeah, it looks like it's got some screws or something. Well, so you can adjust the tension. but it also locks, so you can, once your stencil is made, you can lock it in place so you don't get any free-floating teeth while you adjust from one platform to the next. So this is, well, it says it's on sale from $80. It's like Invicta sale. Yeah, it's 40 bucks. Yeah. So, eh, right on the top end, but... I think if you're doing any sort of tile or anything like that, Tile thresholds, yeah, just anything weird. Yeah, it's worth taking a look at. It's just kind of a fun tool to have even if you're not using it. It's a toy basically for me. You know, I would say the one thing I see about that is it doesn't have a ton of depth. I would like it if it was, that looks to me like it's probably about six inches of usable depth, maybe four. I would like that if it was about 18 inches of usable depth. Yeah, but at that point you're like, yeah, sure. That's a necessary amount. Yeah. Well, I'm thinking about like tile, like cutting around, uh, vent floor events or something. But yeah, yeah. I mean, 18 is probably excessive. Yeah. If you're, if you're having to, I mean, I, I, I see worlds where you're going to have to cut more than six inches, but at that point you should be using something else for stencil. Good pick. I like it. Yeah. I've got another thing. Do me. So I, I've seen on Disney Plus and furthermore on like Gizmodo or whatever websites I'm on, blogs and whatnot, mention of the new Marvel series, WandaVision, which is actually the names of two Marvel characters who fall in love and become romantic. It looks very weird. So I had the same feeling. I was like, this looks stupid. I don't get it. I don't get what they're trying to do. The way the trailers present this is Marvel characters in a 1950s sitcom, sort of an I love Lucy era sitcom. And that's not inaccurate for a little bit. Took a flyer because the kids were into it. Betty in particular was like, I want to watch WandaVision. I was like, well, shit, man, if you want to watch WandaVision, I want to watch WandaVision. Is it sitcom or is it superhero-y? You got to watch it. Or is it neither? It is both. And it's more superhero-y as we advance. It's phenomenal. So I think we watched episode four tonight, and I believe we're current. And I cannot wait to watch the next episode. It is amazing. And I'm not going to tell you anything about it because anything I tell you will ruin it. Is that bad? Uh, no, but the joy is in the twists. |
| Unknown | Okay. |
| Unknown | The joy is in the twists. Uh, it is totally delicious entertainment. I'm into it. I don't want to tell you too much. Uh, you're going to see characters that you didn't expect to see. They're going to be sort of sprinkled in really fucking good. Now. I like it. Talking to Will earlier, he says, I think I'll wait until they're all out. I don't think that's a terrible idea. If you're the type of person that just wants to binge, this is going to be a gas to binge, is my guess. I'm only four episodes in. Everybody is only four episodes in. With that said, if you don't mind waiting a week. I do mind waiting a week. Well, some people don't. |
| Unknown | That's what I'm saying. |
| Unknown | It's not since Game of Thrones that I've had to wait a week between episodes. If you don't, it really makes Betty mad, by the way. My child, who has never experienced anything besides binge bingeability TV shows, is really frustrated by she was like, they've already really they've already filmed these all. Dad, I read about it online. They've wrapped production. This is my lovely eight year old. You know, these motherfuckers are holding out on us. Mark pitched a fit tonight about an ad. We were watching something on Hulu. He's like, why do we have as I just want to watch my show. So dumb. I was like, I mean, you're not wrong. You're not wrong. But, you know, back in my day, I used to have to run to the bathroom during commercial breaks. Uphill in the snow both ways. So, yeah, if you don't mind that, in fact, if you kind of like it and I kind of like it, if you kind of like it, I recommend starting it right now. It is so good. So interesting. I'm hooked. |
| Unknown | I |
| Unknown | I wish that Disney was doing it the way Netflix does it. Just drop the whole season. Give it to me in one swoop. You don't need to keep me interested. The play button on my remote will keep me interested. You know, I think there's got to be something to it, right? There's got to be something to it. Yeah. HBO has not gone away from that model and HBO makes bucket loads of money. And so does Netflix. But Netflix has way more content than HBO and HBO makes almost as much money. So, yeah. And, and HBO is shelling out a lot more money. Yeah. So, Andrew, anything you want to add before we go? No, no, that's it for me. Well, thanks for coming over. Yeah. It's not going to be fun when you could just walk across the street. I know we could like, we're going to have some weird episodes. Hey you guys, thanks for joining us for this episode of 40 in 20 to watch clicker podcast. It's been really fun. Check us out on Instagram. at 40 and 20 at watch clicker. Please also check us out on the website. Look, all the podcast episodes are on there. Lots of articles, reviews. I published I republished an article that I wrote many, many moons ago on the SKX this week. I think it's great. Check it out. It's pretty okay. If you want to support the show, you can do so at patreon.com slash 40 and 20 access to our discord where lots of good stuff happens. So we buy microphones, mixers, pay for all the hosting. We really appreciate it. And don't forget to tune back in next Thursday for another hour of watches, food, drinks, life, and other things we like. Bye-bye. |