Episode 100 - Pre-Orders: the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

Published on Wed, 23 Sep 2020 20:11:07 -0700

Synopsis

The podcast discusses the pros and cons of pre-orders in the watch market, particularly for micro-brands. While pre-orders allow smaller brands to gauge demand and manage production quantities, there are concerns about transparency, delays, and the risk of not receiving the final product as expected. The hosts emphasize that their opinions come from a consumer perspective and invite brand owners to share their insights. They also touch on passion projects, the dynamic nature of the micro-brand industry, and the benefits of pre-orders in bringing new and exciting designs to market.

Transcript

Speaker
Everett Hello, fellow watch lovers, nerds, enthusiasts, or however you identify. This is 40 and 20, the Watch Clicker podcast. I'm your host Everett. I'm here with Andrew's good friend, Will, and another guy named Mike. This is the show where we talk about watches, food, drinks, life, and other things we like. Gentlemen, how are you?
Will Doing pretty good.
Mike Doing quite well, thank you. How are you?
Everett You know, I'm, uh, I'm surviving, right? It's the weekend. The freaking weekend. About to have me some fun. I'm drinking a $15 bottle of pumpkin liqueur.
Mike 15, not 50, right?
Everett Yeah. Yeah. One five. Yeah, that's right.
Will Just want to make sure we heard that right. Drinking the cheap stuff.
Everett That's right. That's right. That's right. I'm glad you guys joined us for the show.
Will Well, we pretty much had to, otherwise there wouldn't be a show.
Everett So this is kind of a special show for us. I mean, we're not going to make a huge deal about it, but this is going to be our officially our hundredth episode of 40 and 20.
Mike Look at that. Look at us. Or you guys and me piggybacking.
Everett Yeah. Yeah, no, I, we appreciate your piggybacking. Unfortunately, Andrew is, uh, stashed away in the woods somewhere, uh, hunting the mighty elk with a bow and arrow as he does. So he couldn't join us. Um, but. I thought, well, what better alternative to Andrew than his best friend, or I guess his good friend.
Will We could say best friend. We could say best friend.
Mike That sounds fine. A lot of people have said that. A lot of people have said that.
Everett So, Mike, this is your second time on the show.
Mike Second time. That's a record for me.
Everett You know, there is another watch podcast that sort of focuses on affordable watches, I'm not going to say any names. I'm not going to say any names, but, uh, you happen to contribute for their website. And I know, and I know that when you were on the show last time, there was some, uh, there was some talk on, uh, on like a private Slack channel about what is this other podcast? We've never heard of this thing and Mike's on it.
Mike I feel like they had all heard about it. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. I don't think none of them have their, uh, you know, are that oblivious. Okay.
Everett I kind of made most of it up.
Mike Yeah. No, I think they, um, they were all at least aware of it, if not active listeners.
Everett Well, and, and it felt like, uh, there was some crossover audience enjoyment. Yeah, for sure. We, we got some fun comments to say, Oh yeah, we know Mike from TBWS is, you know, network as it were. Yeah. It was fun.
Mike Patreon slot.
Everett Yeah, that's right. That's right. And in fact, we got a call after that show from a DM from Cass and we've got, uh, Cass was like, we should do something together. And I was like, bro, I've been saying that for two years.
Will Uh, been saying it for 100 episodes.
Everett Yeah. Decades. And, uh, so we've got a show planned. I don't know when exactly that's going to happen. Uh, scheduling is always a little weird with, Uh, you know, we've got so-and-so's watch. We need to get them on the show, but that's going to happen. I'd say probably in the next month, month and a half for sure. So I'm excited about that. And I think we've got a fun topic too. So is it podcasting about watches? Uh, it, it, well, actually a little bit, leave it there, leave it there.
Mike If we don't need to just probing a little bit, a little bit.
Everett So, um, how's the weather out there, you guys?
Will Beautiful. Yeah, it's fall over here and I'm loving it.
Mike Yeah. Fall has arrived and it is serene.
Will Yeah. Yeah. I don't know about you, Mike, but I'm going to be experiencing all four seasons or at least three of the seasons in the coming days where it'll be winter in the morning, fall in the morning to afternoon, and then summer by the evening.
Mike Yeah, 100%. That's, yeah, you get about hour to two hours of summer. late afternoon when the sun's really scorched, uh, but biting cold. It's like being in the Sahara, basically.
Will Yeah, pretty much. The house is, uh, you know, the thermostat says 60 or so degrees in the morning if I don't turn the heat on.
Mike So yeah. This, you know, we're in the sweet spot where you turn other than maybe running the fan occasionally, you got no heat, you got no cold. Your, your house is a perfect temperature. It only lasts like a week or two a year, but it's the best. It's right now.
Everett Yeah. Savings. Yep. You know, we, we had smoke. We had about two weeks of smoke. We had some very terrible fires, which I think everybody in the country is about. Uh, and we were sucked in. I think we were at a four 50 AQI for about two weeks. So that's an air quality index, if you don't know. Um, which means. It's basically like every time you step out the door, you've smoked three cigarettes. Um, and it was pretty bad. And then two days ago it started raining and it was like overnight and literally overnight I woke up the next day and it was just back to normal. So it's been amazing. We've been, I've been trying to be out of the house as much as possible.
Will That smoke is interesting because now I heard this in passing with a conversation with my parents who live in South Jersey, which is obviously South of me. But they said that they got some of the smoke from out west where they are, but I didn't, which I thought was kind of nuts.
Mike So I've heard that too, that it has traveled, but I don't know how many people are actually experiencing it or just like it's affecting AQI. And so it's on the news and people are like citing it.
Will Yeah. You're probably, you're probably right.
Everett There may be like a psychosomatic thing too, right? You see the AQI is up. Oh my gosh, the smoke. You know, I also noticed that the AQI didn't track the visceral smoke on a one-to-one. You know, some days it would be smokier, the AQI would be a little less. Other days, less smoky, but the air quality index was higher. So it seemed to me that there was a delta there, and I don't know what causes that. Getting the clean smoke. Yeah, perhaps. Perhaps. Well, well, I think, I think it makes sense for us to just sort of jump into this, into this topic. And it's an interesting one. And so before we start, I'm going to say, we are going to talk about pre-orders generally in the watch market. And so a caveat before we get started, because none of us are watchmakers or watch brand owners. And I think, especially for a very small business, there are hard decisions you have to make as a watch owner. So we're going to have opinions today. Uh, but our opinions are those of consumers. This is our consumer. Uh, and so to the extent you are a brand owner, if you worked with a brand owner, um, take it for what it is. These are the opinions of opinions of a consumer. We're not suggesting that you're a bad business person or that the business decisions you're making are not good ones. So is that a fair, do you think I think that's a fair caveat?
Will Yeah, I think so. And although we're going to be focusing on watches, I think this conversation can also be applied to a few other things where pre-orders are involved. So I'd say if, uh, you're a brand owner of any sort, whether that be a watch, a knife company, a video game company, who knows? Um, just keep an open mind to, uh, what we're saying.
Everett Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And, and, and if you can, don't get offended because we're, we're all opinionated assholes. Very true. Just like everybody else in the industry, you know, everybody else that buys watches, they're all assholes and they all have assholes and opinions. Yeah. So, Mike, you, I think, introduced this topic.
Mike This is becoming a trend and I don't care for it.
Everett You know, that is just the way it goes, I guess. So why don't you tell us just what you were thinking when you brought this up.
Mike This has come out of a lot of conversations I've had with, I mean, with you guys, with just other friends in the community. You know, I don't have a lot of exposure to other pre-orders because as far as my enthusiasm, I direct it almost solely towards watches. And then also out of a handful of lengthy conversations I've had with brand owners. Um, just about their process and why they do things and, you know, why did you use Kickstarter? Why not? Why did, you know, what, what are the financial implications of everything? Um, and just then as a customer and speaking to people as customers, just the, um, I think frustrations really that come with some pre-orders. Um, but not with others. And that's, I think what's interesting, um, that there are pre-orders that some people are totally okay with and not with others. So yeah, it's a deep well.
Everett Well, you brought up something interesting when you said, you said, this is not just exclusive to watches. You said the two things that struck my mind immediately are watches and knives. I think you see this in micro brand watches and knives, right? Both sort of boutique industries, both sort of, accessible for a middle-class person with a great idea. Um, but then you brought up another one. You said video games. I thought that's interesting. Video game pre-orders are, are something that is pretty prevalent and has been at times pretty catastrophic. Um, what, what part of, what part of the risk involved in a pre-order system is, uh, is the general disdain towards pre-orders? What, what part of that is the risk?
Will Well, I think the, and I'll, I'll break this down in two parts. So I think the risk is really around getting something in it, not living up to the expectations. And that's just general pre-orders, anything that you do that you're pre-ordering where you haven't seen it, uh, in the flesh or the metal, however you want to phrase it. And you don't know what you're getting. Um, but when you get it, you can be thrilled and really happy about it, or it can be a total bummer. And when it's a total bummer, that's when you feel that, you know, you've been more or less duped. Right. But there's, you know, there's some other things that can go wrong with pre-orders. And I, uh, you know, I have, I have many stories I can tell about pre-orders really outside of what the watch world, but I remember the first thing I ever pre-ordered in my life was the PlayStation two. And when it came out, I was, literally the first person at the EB games to preorder it. Yeah. That's a, that's a blast from the past.
Everett And this is what, like 2000, right?
Will Or 99, something like that. Yeah. I was, I was pretty, you know, fairly young and I had put down a, you know, a good chunk of my lawn mowing money, I guess you could say on it. And I remember when I preordered it, the guy said, you're the first person to preorder this. Uh, and when I went to go pick it up, they said, you don't have a preorder here. You're, Yep. Yep. Your pre-order doesn't exist. And, uh, maybe this is where I gained my general cynicism towards society. And I flipped out on the person working there. Um, I eventually left with a PlayStation two, but that doesn't happen so much, I guess you could say with, you know, watches and knives and that sort of thing. Um, you know, if you pre-order it just in the way that online commerce, e-commerce works, You know, you pre-order something, you get an order number, you know, you know that you have it. Um, but I think that that can, you know, kind of lead us down the road that we're going to go down where, you know, we're going to talk about a couple of things where it's, Hey, I pre-ordered this. Um, I'm going to get it in two weeks. Maybe I'm not going to get it in two weeks. Maybe it's going to be months down the road. You know, what happens to that money as it's going along the pre-order route with both me and the manufacturer.
Everett Yeah, well, let's maybe talk about some distinctions, right? Because when we're using pre-order as sort of a bulk phrase to refer to maybe things that are not the same, right? So we've got what I would call a traditional pre-order, which is where you sign up on a list, you give a vendor your money with the expectation that in some relatively fixed amount of time, you're going to receive a product, right? Um, that method, uh, that method I think is a spinoff of a crowdsourcing method, you know, Kickstarter, we might think of, or the other brands that do that. Using a specific host, you know, um, and I think that there's a idea that using something like Kickstarter gives you a level of security that I think it probably actually doesn't, um, with multiple stories of Kickstarters having gone bad. Um, but, but there are other ways to do this too, right? I know Laurier is doing a waiting list, right? We've got watches coming in. Would you like to get on a waiting list? We don't want your money. We just want your name. And when the watches come in, we'll send you an email and you'll have X amount of hours to claim, to claim your watch. So within that range, I think that that kind of sets the outer limits of our range, right? Perhaps you've got Kickstarter on the one hand, which you're going to give us your money. We're going to use your money. to make this product versus, versus Laurier, the Laurier model, which is we're doing this thing, but demand's going to be high. So put your name on, on the list. So when they come in, you're, you're in line, right?
Will Yeah. And you also have the, I think outside of the extreme of even Laurier, uh, that example where something comes out, you place the order and it's instantly available. You get it in however fast they can ship it.
Mike Right. Sure. You know, so there's also that pre-order, but yeah, I mean, yeah, I was just, yeah, that is the order. Yeah. Yeah.
Will I was just going to say that is not a pre-order. Um, you know, that is, I think the ideal world where something just comes out, people have money to manufacture it and produce it and all that kind of good stuff. And, you know, these are the big brands that do it. They release a watch and you can just go buy it the next day.
Mike But I was, it was interesting. I was, reminded in talking today with some brand owners and some friends in the community that, um, you know, ball watches does pre-orders.
Will They sure do. Which is, they do a lot of pre-orders.
Mike Yeah. I don't, I mean, they're, I don't know how big they are, but they've got legacy in such
Everett Well, I believe Ball's owned by a conglomerate, right? Ball is owned by one of these bigger conglomerate companies, I think. It wouldn't surprise me.
Will Most are, but I'm not sure if they're independent or not.
Everett Ball was an American company that went out of business in the midst, you know, after the war, like all of the rest of the American companies.
Mike It is currently owned by Asia Commercial Holdings Ltd. There you go. LVMH, Richemont, Asia Commercial Holdings Ltd.
Everett So it's part of LVMH?
Mike No, it is not. Is that what you're saying? No, I was comparing it to that.
Everett Yeah. With your tongue planted firmly in your cheek, I can see.
Will What's funny about Ball is they do so many pre-orders that I'm not sure if they actually release watches at all. Sure. I swear I get an email from them every other day telling me that they have a new pre-order.
Mike You're just buying an idea from them.
Everett You're just buying into the, now you've got equity.
Will But we digress a little bit, I think.
Everett Yeah, well, I think it's important to note that in the world that we sort of play in, you hear people say a lot. I don't like pre-orders. I want the watch to be available, and for me to be able to get online, order it, and have it get delivered. But that method is not without its limitations, right? I think that the Hallioses of the world, or even perhaps the early days of Laurier, every single Hodinkee limited edition that's ever existed, that's how these things mostly get sold, right? Oftentimes you can't get one, right?
Mike Unless you're on the ball with your credit card number, practicing your... And as I can attest, even then, with my Gemini, I mean, I should say Warden Wound Gemini, it wasn't Laurier.
Everett Sure. But, but same, same deal, right? I mean, so that, that, that method is not without its limitations, right? There's some, there's some benefit to being able to get in line at a soft delivery point where there's no rush and there's no FOMO driving the clicks and then you're racing with folks. So I don't know if there's a right or wrong, but I just wanted to suggest that's not a perfect world.
Will Yeah, and I think a lot of the angst with pre-orders comes with kind of what you said, the FOMO, right? Fear of missing out. But also, It does drive some consumer behavior in terms of the urgency of how quickly you're willing to hit that buy button. Yeah. When you know that there's a pre-order on something that is a in-demand watch that you know that you can purchase it online and if you get that pre-order spot, you're going to get it and it's going to be a hot item. You know, there's that itch, you know, that you got to scratch to hit that buy button that I'm going to be one of the exclusive people that get this. And that falls a little bit inside and outside of this pre-order realm because that can go into a couple different things that aren't even pre-orders. But I think that that's probably a big part of it with pre-orders is that you're getting in on the ground floor to that new release watch and that you're going to be in the first delivery that goes out the door from the brand when they're ready to actually assemble it and put it together and get it out to you.
Mike But how much is that a real thing with You know, yes, there are the old OGs and the, you know, the big names in the micro brand world and in the other worlds, I'm sure. But, you know, when you have an unknown brand, is that exclusivity and Kickstarter doesn't have a lot of exclusivity, but in general, is that exclusivity part of the motivation for, you know, clicking buy? I think that wavers depending on the brand. Where, you know, like with the C4th, you know, especially I think, um, the second edition.
Everett That there was just, that's the one where there was the internet problems and people ordered them and they were running enough for those people.
Mike I think second, I forget. I mean, he, he did across C4th. I think Jason did almost every kind of pre-order you can do other than Kickstarter. Um, and nothing was enough. And, you know, which is not necessarily his fault. If anything, it's to his credit. Um, but then, you know, you get, you know, I'll make up, you know, Mike's watch brand, I'm launching my sick watch on Kickstarter. You know, people aren't concerned about that exclusivity. They may just want to end on Kickstarter too. I mean, if you want one, you usually get one. It just depends on what price you get it at.
Will Yeah, well, that brings up a good point, Mike, because there are brands that, and I'm not talking about the brand new brands that, you know, no one's ever heard of and they launch on Kickstarter and that's how we find them. I'm saying maybe the sophomore brands where they're releasing their second watch, because I think that, I know we weren't going to talk too heavily about specific brands, but I think Traska experienced that with the Summiteer. Kickstarter campaign for that, I believe filled in less than an hour. Real fast. I think it was something crazy like that where, you know, they hit their, I forget what they call it on Kickstarter, the goal or whatever it is, you know, extremely quickly. And like you say, does that mean that you're going to get one? In most cases, yes. But I think with the summit here, there were cases where people didn't get them and they, you know, they had to wait and that's fine. You know, he, came out and said, we're going to fulfill all the orders that we got on Kickstarter. But, you know, like you said, it may or may not necessarily mean that you're going to get it on release day one. Maybe you're in that second wave. And that's, I think, something that can drive some behavior and trying to get that button clicked real fast with a pre-order. Yeah, sure.
Everett Well, and I think maybe that's an interesting time for us to talk about some of the benefits of pre-orders, because I think that there's some obvious logistical benefits. And then I think that there are maybe some more holistic or philosophical benefits to a pre-order system, but maybe we'll take them in order. Logistically, it occurs to me that if I've got a watch, I'm going to production, I don't know how many to make, right? And I think oftentimes that's been the problem Jason Lim has faced or that Lauren and Lorenzo Ortega have faced when they're making their watches. It maybe doesn't occur to them just how many people are going to want one of these, right?
Mike And that's what Zach said. After the Gemini thing that I shared on, in my review of the Gemini, I messaged Zach of Worn and Wound and he was like, we did not anticipate this level of hype. I don't think they had had a watch sell that quickly. Ever. Yeah.
Everett And they've done tons of collabs.
Mike I think I remember you telling me that, Mike. And he said, he was like, I'm sure he got a thousand messages like that that day, but he was like, sorry, we just didn't know. We didn't know this was going to be this big.
Everett And so one of the benefits to a pre-order system is you can sort of gauge, you can gauge at least, at least with some level of certainty, how much interest there is, you know, minimum order quantity might be 300 pieces, right? Well, if you, if there's going to be a thousand people that want your watch and you order 300, there's going to be 700 disappointed people. Right. And so, but if you figure MOQ on a 200 and change piece is $60,000, right? Yeah. So, so if you need to make, if you need to make four times that many, You've got to have a bucket load of money. We're talking about a quarter million dollars that you have to have in your pocket in order to take those to production. So for, for, you know, say Mike's watch company, for instance, you might be able to come up with $60,000. Can you come up with a quarter million dollars to anticipate demand? That's right. You know, so you're anticipating demand. You're making some guesses. Pre-orders allow you to navigate that with some degree of certainty, maybe not certainty, but with some degree of education on the consumer demand for your product, right? It's different.
Mike Yeah, go ahead. Some of the brands I was talking to, which I won't name, though this isn't damning or anything today, who have used Kickstarter and not, say that that is one of the big reasons that they use pre-orders is because it allows them to gauge relative interest. It's not just about how many people are definitely going to it, but they can, from their experience and industry experience, they can say, okay, I have a hundred pre-orders. I know from our past models and from talking to other people that that means I need to order at least 200 watches.
Everett Right, it's data driven, they're able to extrapolate from the numbers they have.
Mike But that is, even though they may have cash on hand where they could do those 100, or 300 I should say, they could hit that MOQ with 60 grand, they have that cash on hand, the pre-order for them is less about, it's kind of a guarantee for the money, but it also allows them to kind of project a bit better and by an accurate number to your point.
Will Yeah. Well, I think that's, I was just going to say, I think that's kind of the crux to this whole argument, you know, where, um, I'm sure there's some brand owners sitting here. If they're listening to this, yelling at us right now saying, you know, you don't know about, you know, this, that, and the other thing of how we need to purchase the components that go into these watches. And that's why we do pre-orders. And that is certainly true. Yeah. Um, I, I think that, Part of what we're talking about is not so much the brands that are releasing their first or second watch. I think it's more where I feel it personally is the brands that are releasing their fourth and fifth watch. If that's the concern, why are you still doing a pre-order? And that might be a legitimate question. It might not be. I'm not at liberty to say if that's a legitimate question. As a consumer, I can ask that question and I can be put in my place by someone who knows better than me, of course.
Everett It seems like you're suggesting there's a level that a brand achieves where these questions are no longer appropriate to pass on to the consumers. You as a business are established firmly enough that you can take responsibility for some of these questions. Is that what you're suggesting?
Will Yeah.
Mike Sorry, go ahead, Mike. Well, to add to that, and does it bring up the question as consumers, when a company is bringing its fourth or fifth model to market via Kickstarter, how, you know, how much can I trust that company? How well are they actually doing? You know, cause that's a, you know, if you have to go back to Kickstarter every single time, every time I'm wondering like, this seems risky. Why should, why is this risky on watch five?
Will Well, yeah. And that's something that we talked about, you know, when we were talking about this topic was, what is the risk with your money? And I think that's where some consumers might get hung up on pre-orders. And I know I have as well, because I've been burned on Kickstarters before, not with watches, fortunately, but with a couple other things I've backed. And you essentially end up becoming seed money for them to explore the options to manufacture this, that, or the other thing with a new manufacturer, a new design process, something like that. And I think that's where it can get risky. But if we're talking about a straight pre-order where I log on to your website, it's not Kickstarter, and I pre-order the watch, whatever it is, and I'm promised this watch, then at least you know to some extent that you're going to get it at some point.
Mike Yeah.
Will Especially as we've gone down the road of, you know, more micro brands entering, you know, the watch world that Kickstarter can become a little bit of, you know, the Wild West in a way where you don't necessarily know what you're going to get when you back a project.
Mike Yeah. I think, so another brand that I talked to, and I'll read this directly from his message. The reason I did Kickstarter was so that I could spend less money on buying inventory upfront and more on developing a better product. By going this route, I was able to put more money into tooling prototypes and overall just planning what I wanted. So what he was saying is, you know, Kickstarter, the money he did have, he was able to fully invest in development. By the time he got to Kickstarter, he had essentially all he had to do was get the Kickstarter funds and send them and the order was in. Right. So he was able to put all that upfront money into development and creating something and getting it perfected as opposed to balancing his budget for, okay, well, I can only spend this much on development. And at a certain point, I just have to pull the trigger and buy these pieces. And Kickstarter allowed him to do that. And I think that's a kind of a noble use of Kickstarter. But I think one of the things we've talked about in the pre-show is that, you know, one of the big issues I have with pre-orders is I'm not necessarily against them. I'm against them when brands launch a pre-order and, you know, their watch is 50% complete and they're at the time of pre, and then, so they're using that pre-order period to either hastily finish their watch or they're adding to the deadline because, oh, things aren't lined up and, oh, we had to tweak this. It's like, no, get that, get that done in advance. then post up and show me the watch that you're actually selling.
Will Yeah. And that, that brings up a good point where, and maybe this is going to move us along this, where how long is too long for a pre-order period. Um, there are some brands that do pre-orders that are, uh, a week or two, you know, you're basically just kind of like we talked about before getting your spot in line to get that first shipment. And then there's the, let's just call it a glorified Kickstarter where you're getting seed money to fund your project. And you're doing that just outside of Kickstarter where you're, you know, using your own website to, to get the funds. And that's, that's what I get turned off to. Yes. Is where the watch is not complete. The development is not complete and you're getting an interest free loan from me to fund your project. That's, where it gets a little shady.
Mike Disingenuous.
Will Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. That's a good word for it. And I'm not saying that every brand that does that is disingenuous or is doing something, you know, outside of the scope of a normal pre-order.
Mike Cause we all know things, things do come up that are totally unpredictable.
Everett Exactly. Yeah. Like COVID, COVID-19 shut down Chinese factories for, for three months. Yeah.
Will Maybe that's a good disclaimer to throw in here that maybe 2020 isn't the best
Mike Yeah.
Will Yeah. Case scenario for pre-orders. But, you know, these have been going on for longer than 2020. So, you know, we're having a general discussion here. But I think that's, you know, and as a consumer, I know there are some brands out there that have had pre-order periods that have lasted longer than six months. And as a as a consumer, that would bug me.
Mike But here's the thing. I am not necessarily opposed to that depending on the watch obviously I mean if there's a watch I'm just dying to have and the only way to get it is pre-order and they say listen it's going to be a year that's fine as long as it remains a year right I think the issue is When those timelines go from three months to six months to eight months to 12 months, and then you're just being dragged and dragged along. You know, if it's clear up front, one of the brands I talked to said, listen, our lead time is always three or four months. And when they come out with a pre-order, it is through their website and everything is set up. So it is literally, and it's the same brand that said, we use this to kind of gauge interest and get our numbers right. They're taking the money and they're placing the order and that's it. And so that time is just, it is just the inevitable production time of that is three to four months.
Everett Right. We've got good prototypes. We know what we're doing. We, we're, we're ready to go. We're ready to press, press play, but we need to, we need to know how many it is to make. No, I think it's, I think that's reasonable. And I think it's a, I think that maybe that's a good segue because you know, We could talk a little bit about, talk a little bit more about the downsides to pre-orders. Cause I think there are some, you know, I think especially in 2020, I think we've seen, Hallios in particular is the one that comes to mind. You know, uh, I think that he's got two very exciting watches in the wings, but the pre-order periods have been very long. And, and I think that there's a couple of things that have happened in that time. I think one consumer enthusiasm for the watches has waned. But I also think that he released those designs so early that a lot of companies jumped on and they've sort of beat Hallios to the punch on some of the exciting parts of those watches, you know? And so while that's a, that's a negative, right? That's a downside. Um, and, and that cuts that knife cuts both ways. Uh, but, but with that said, I think that there's something that doesn't get discussed enough in this, in this conversation, which is that the very idea that we're the type of consumers who are looking for new and exciting and on-trend things can really benefit, you know, a company like Seiko doesn't meet our needs regularly. As a matter of course, they don't meet our needs. I think what's exciting about micro brands is you've got these consumers turned entrepreneur who maybe don't have a bankroll like Seiko, who certainly don't have a bankroll like Seiko, you know, uh, with maybe a few exceptions. I assume Dan Henry is like Scrooge McDuck, uh, you know, that's right. You know, but, but with the exception of someone like that, by and large, these are just consumers. These are just watch enthusiasts that are like, We need this fucking watch. Why don't we have this watch? And so it gives us opportunities to enjoy the watches that we probably want that Seiko or Longines or Oris or name your mid-sized watch company or, you know, mid-level watch brand. They're not going to make that watch for us. They're not going to.
Mike There's a nimbleness. It gives us the opportunity. There's a nimbleness to being small and that nimbleness is facilitated by pre-orders and Kickstarter. Um, that allow brands, small brands to experiment and bring new things to market or try to bring new things to market, um, and hedge their bets. Um, where, and this gets back to the last episode I was on where, um, iterative design and having to kind of stay in a brand's wheelhouse too. connects to that. You know, another reason Seiko can't do that. Seiko has to stay kind of within Seiko. Tudor has to stay within Tudor, but these new brands can pop up and say, yeah, right. Tudor, that's their wheelhouse.
Will It's a really good blue.
Mike I've heard it's a really good blue. Yeah. I have a friend with a firsthand account. But that, you know, these small brands can bring things to market that are, you know,
Will may be ridiculous um but you know it's kind of the first thing that comes to mind there is yellow dials right right on paper five years ago yellow dials like what and now rolex is doing it yeah and uh before before rolex he had uh it was all across instagram was hashtag banana gang you know everybody with the uh
Mike 10 years ago, that was a different hashtag.
Will Make sure you sort by recent.
Everett So the idea is that by being enthusiastic enthusiasts, we're actually participating in a super dynamic, in a super dynamic industry, right? I think that watches, like, like many things, but not everything lends itself to being crowdsourced this way. You know, shoes, for instance, don't lend themselves to being crowdsourced this way. Watches and knives in particular, these two things, I think that we've seen since the advent of, um, you know, e-commerce, I think is the term you used Mike. And I don't think it's a bad one since the advent of e-commerce. we've seen these two industries, you know, explode, go in weird directions, sort of come back to the center and then, and really be very consistent, smooth industries. And I think that you have to, you have to thank Kickstarter and you have to thank pre-order systems because without those things, we're still just, everybody's rocking, you know, giant ugly lunar landers. And we, for the record, Mike's wearing a lunar left 45, 48.
Mike I'll tell you it's, I think it's 45, but it wears like a really clean 44.
Everett You know, we're able to be as consumers, we're able to have a direct say In, in the products in a way that you don't see without pre-orders is my point, right? The lunar Lander. I only bring it up because that's a watch lunar pilot. I'm sorry. Uh, the bull of a fan. I'm sorry, bull of a fan, you know, that watch that watch is amazing. Except that it's giant, right? You know, we're able to, we're able to shape those kinds of decisions and the brand owners have to think. What are people going to want? You know, in a way that they wouldn't, you know, if you're a new brand owner and you're dumping your life savings into a company, you're going to be really thoughtful about what people want. And by and large, these micro-brands are owned by enthusiasts.
Will We're plugged in. In a way, I feel like you're opening up a real good can of worms there. And I know Mike has touched on this in a couple of reviews that he's done recently, where it's passion projects.
Mike Yeah.
Will I don't want to get too far off topic, but there is a... No, this is the topic. Well, hear me out. There's a difference between a passion project where you're dumping money into something because you want to make it for yourself. That's a psychological thing there. Or you're making something that you think that the rest of the market wants.
Everett But if we're talking about 300 watches, right, or 400 or 500 watches, if there's a demand there, we're not likely to see Seiko do it.
Will Oh, no, I totally agree with you.
Everett But is there... But AVIC might do it. They might.
Will But there's a difference between them doing it and someone making... let's just say someone with a little bit of money that wants to make a MOQ of 300 watches so that they can get the watch built that they want and then never make another watch again.
Mike Well, and I think, you know, I, I reviewed it on the Time Bum, um, but I think I shared it at least with you, Will, if not in the... We don't talk about, we don't talk about the Time Bum. Oh, the, the Time Fanny? That'll, that'll work. Um, the Retros Diver. right super cool super cool story excellent really well made watch um you know this guy he was literally walking with his dad when he was five years old and they found this dude jenna on the ground it was a little happens to me right that's i mean that's a tuesday that's just i call that tuesday and you know fast forward 30 years the dad is 80 or something and Holds his son aside at a family get together and says, I want you to have this. And it's the Dugenna. And he's like, I can't wear this. Let me make this. This is, I mean, pure passion project. He makes, and he has 50 made, right? Now his per unit cost is probably super high, but he did no pre-order. I mean, he just, he wanted to get this watch made. I think he correctly assumed that there would be other people that would buy this watch. But he didn't, you know, he wasn't about to shell out the who knows how much that would have cost because it was, you know, German case, Swiss movements, German dial. This was not. Let me farm.
Everett Sure. Maybe $400, $500. At least, probably.
Will Maybe more. It wasn't an AliExpress special.
Mike No, it was Ali priority mail. What's the name of this one? Retros Diver. R-E-T-R.
Will Oh, yeah. Mike, you did review this for our website.
Mike Was it for you? Yeah.
Everett You know what I did? Let me correct myself.
Mike Yeah. Let me correct. You know why I was confused? Because, uh, I sent it off to Lauren and he then reviewed it for his site.
Everett Yeah. Okay. And just, and can I just clarify, we've gotten, we've got actually nothing against the time bomb at all. We're just giving Mike shit. Time bombs. Awesome. Yeah, no, it's interesting. And actually, well, I'd like to go back to you because I feel like. I wasn't able to glean from your setup there. Do you have thoughts about this? Do you have feelings about like, is one good? Is one better?
Will Like a passion project versus something that is, I'm going to continue on doing this? Yes. No. I mean, if there was a watch that I wanted to make and the only way that I was going to be able to do it was something like retros where I had to make 50 of them, if I had the money, Sure, maybe that'd be something I do, but... And this is just me, I don't know that in good conscience I could take other people's money knowing that I was making a passion project.
Mike Right.
Will Like I said though, it is a little bit of a story for another day.
Mike But why not? If those people want that watch, what's wrong with that?
Will Yeah, but I mean, any watch you make, there's gonna be almost someone else that wants to buy it. It's like weird kinks that people have. There's always someone out there that has the same thing.
Everett Is your reticence because of the lack of commitment to brand equity? What's your reticence based on?
Will I guess that's more what it is because at the end of the day you're buying a mechanical timepiece that is one day going to need to be serviced and maybe parts are going to need to be replaced. If this was a No. Yeah, I see everybody on FaceTime getting angry at me saying this. If you're making this as a passion project and there is never going to be any replacement parts, when you buy that watch, you run it till the end of its service cycle and hope that the parts that need to be replaced are generic parts that are available. But that's why I keep saying, I feel like we have gotten off the rails a little bit.
Everett And yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fine.
Will We like maybe, maybe this is something we can explore for, you know, another show topic, you know, passion project.
Everett Well, no, I think, I think that that's a good, I think maybe that's a good place to transition off the topic. You know, I don't know that there's any answers here, right? It's more just a conversation about the positives and negatives. I will say, I think that a system like for, for an, for an established company, I think a system that Lauren and Lorenzo have set up their, their wait list. system is particularly inoffensive to me at least.
Mike I'd also say that website pre-orders, non Kickstarter. I, the issue comes in with established brands using a site like Kickstarter, which is not super transparent when you get down to it. Um, and I guess the pre-order, I guess you could do it on your own website. And have it not be that as transparent, but for some reason that seems more authentic. But I agree. I like the wait list the most, but I would also include the kind of, here's our website pre-order. You know, there are a lot of brands that do that. Um, you know, and I know part of the reason some brands do it is just the Kickstarter fee. They don't want to pay it.
Will Yeah. And you know, they're with anything, there are right ways and wrong ways to do it. I think. Most of the brands that we see day to day I think are doing pre-orders the right way. Yeah. What I'll say is I have made buying decisions on watch A and watch B based on how fast I'm going to get it. And there have been watches that have launched at, you know, the same week, same day, something like that. And if I had to choose between the two, I'm going to choose the one that's coming faster.
Mike Let me ask you this though. And I think I know the answer. I hope I know the answer. Is that decision, it's not so much about getting the fact that you want the watch sooner. It's about, it's a, you're managing risk because if one watch says, listen, if one brand says, listen, you'll have this in a month, a lot less can go wrong in a month than the other brand that says you'll have this in six months.
Will Exactly. And it's even better. And this is, I'm not going to say the two specific watches that I'm talking about, but there was an example where, yep, there you go. Where was the watch came out today. You can buy it today and you'll have it in two days. Yeah. And the risk is gone.
Mike None.
Will Yeah. You know, you're getting the finished product. And that is appealing, you know, to me and I know everybody's different and Um, there have been watches that I have pre-ordered and I will pre-order down the road if they, you know, come out with something that I like. Um, but from my point of view, if it's available, I'm going to choose the watch that I can get in two days.
Mike Fair enough. I think just to put a cap on it for me, I, I don't find enough pre-orders necessarily offensive or problematic. except when they don't stick to their timeline. And the second thing is, and I know some of that is unavoidable, but some of it is avoidable.
Will Um, and then especially for established brands.
Mike Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Will Or you're understanding the supply chain.
Mike They know better. Right. Um, or where they're using that period to continue to develop a watch. If you're, if you're putting your watches out on, on Kickstarter, any platform for pre-order, I mean, you should be done with the watch or be very, very transparent that it's not. And most brands aren't.
Everett Well, I, I think that's, I think that's good. Let's, let's go ahead and wrap up. I'm just going to, I'm going to repeat our caveat, which is to say none of us are, none of us own watch companies. None of us deal with the pressures, the stresses, the logistical concerns. If you are a brand owner and you're listening to this and you're like, these guys are being jerks. Let us know. Let us know. Let us know what we got wrong. Let us know if there are things we're not thinking about or talking about. Let us know. And we'll follow up. That's something that we do from time to time.
Will Unless your comment's stupid. I'd like to just follow up with that with a closing statement as well. It'll be quick.
Everett I promise. I'm sorry, you guys. He's the editor in chief. We'll go ahead.
Will Some of the things that we've been saying aren't just the three of us, you know, sitting around in a circle and talk about it in a closed loop. These are things that our fellow watch lovers and consumers have talked to us about as well.
Everett Yeah.
Will So I'd say to a point, yeah. If you're hearing us say this, there's probably at least, at least two other people that have said it.
Everett And, and, you know, if you want to come on the show and talk about the topic too, we'd be happy to do that. So But bottom line, we're not, we're not throwing darts, uh, here. I mean, maybe, maybe it seems that way, but if you do want to have that conversation, please just hit me or Will up and we'll have that conversation and, and too easy with that said. Pre-orders. We're done other things.
Mike Mike, raise that cup. I've got a real hot one for you. Uh, cooking enthusiasts. Oh, watch out. I'm bringing the garlicky heat. So I don't know. Yeah. Well, how do you guys, let me, let me leave it. How do you guys manage garlic as called for in recipes as far as mincing and pressing?
Will Do you have a garlic press? Let me tell you. Yeah. I individually peel each clove. Sure. kind of smoosh it down a little bit with the knife, just to kind of crack it open. Flat side of the knife, right? Yeah. And then I mince it with the sharpest knife in my kitchen drawer until it is the smallest I can possibly get it. What I mean by that is I use a garlic press.
Everett Oh, well, I don't do that.
Will I have done that and it is miserable and that's why I use a garlic press.
Mike But here's my problem with garlic press.
Everett I'm anti-garlic press.
Mike I don't like garlic presses because I can never get them clean. You need a toothpick to clean them. That's too much cleaning. You're using it wrong. Well, I almost definitely am the last time I did, which was, I don't know, 10 years ago. So nine years ago, my aunt and uncle, I think it was a stocking stuffer. So Santa got me this thing that is a garlic twister. And you can look it up on Amazon. I sent you guys the link so you could get an idea for it. It's this clear plastic thing. Um, it's got a flat bottom. So you, you initiate those first steps. You got to peel it first. And then it's also very satisfying because you take, you take this while it's close and just smash the garlic. So it's flat. You take that smash, but you put it in, you just grind it up and it basically minces it for you. Right. It says you can do it with other things. I've only ever used it with garlic. Cuts down on the time, super easy. So the one I'm hawking here is the Garlic Twister 4th Gen. This is probably three gens beyond mine.
Will It's got advanced- Do I need to pre-order it?
Mike Well, so- It's only on Kickstarter. Yeah, it's only on Kickstarter and they only have 3D renders available. That's the fifth gen So if you if if you get it on Kickstarter super early bird, it's gonna be 15 instead of $20 You could also buy the fourth gen on Amazon for 20 bucks Garlic twister fourth generation multifunction mincer and grinder garlic slash herb slash ginger easy to clean exclamation point clear in parentheses not you know, we can debate whether that's better than the buttoned up, jacket, suit. Um, you know, I think there's more utility here. So that's what I'm bringing for you guys. Uh, if you don't like a garlic press, the garlic twister, fourth gen multifunctional minster and grinder.
Will And the, the chefs, uh, that are our listeners are probably very upset right now.
Everett They hate it. I mean, I'm a little upset. I'm going to say right now I'm a little upset. What are you upset about? Why does it upset you? I mean, I'm not. Hey, listen, listen, I'm not upset, Mike. Come on. Come on. You're fine. You know what? That sounds disingenuous. Hey, you don't need a penny just to hang around.
Will But, you know, I've done the thing where I've I've minced the garlic by hand and made sure that I do it the way that they did it back in the 17th century. Yeah. And I've done it with the garlic press and I can't taste the difference in my food.
Mike Well, I looked this up before recommending this. Hey, is there going to be a difference? And most of the results were no, not at all. Yeah. I don't see nothing. Let me leave you with this. I don't see nothing wrong with a little mince and grind.
Everett We thank you for that, Mike. Other things, Will, what do you got, Mike?
Will Okay, so I think I put this out on Instagram. I know I did because I got a lot of responses. But I think I talked to you guys about it too. T-shirts. Love them. I do too. I love T-shirts. I've got like 20 of them. I've probably got 40. Oversaturated. Yeah, I love T-shirts. My problem with T-shirts is that I wear them so much that they inevitably just wear out on me. So I asked some folks on Instagram and just put one of those little, you know, got a suggestion DM me things.
Everett And I have a feeling you're not about to read my response to this question and, and that's okay. I've got the feeling, but go ahead, keep going.
Will Uh, not afraid to say that. Um, but out of all the responses that I got, the one that piqued my interest the most was the $6 t-shirt from Sam's club. And I thought for six bucks, what do I have to lose? Let me tell you, I bought one. Now I have five. They are the best t-shirts I have worn. Um, so let me tell you a little bit about them. They are six bucks. They say Eddie Bauer makes them. I'm not too confident with that. Aside from the name being on it, because I've owned Eddie Bauer t-shirts and they don't feel anything like this. But they are I'm gonna say they feel like a really good set of sheets So if you've got a good set of sheets, this is like wearing a t-shirt of that really good set of sheets and I don't know how long they're gonna last and Frankly if they make it a year, I'm fine because they cost six bucks I could buy four or five of them for what a lot of these other premium t-shirt companies are charging for a a a a a Sam's Club and Eddie Bauer, and I don't see the same things between the two. I think it's just someone makes them and they slap Eddie Bauer's name on them because- Sure.
Mike Eddie Bauer has sick cachet.
Will Yes, pretty much.
Everett EBTech, like it's 1997 up there. EBTech? Yes. Okay, well that's good. I'm just going to say for the record, I've recommended I've recommended to Will, in a response to his Instagram query, the Los Angeles Apparel tri-blend shirts, which are Los Angeles Apparel is the resurrected.
Mike I was going to say, yes, those are phenomenal. OK, hold on.
Will So let me respond to that because I did look into them. Do you want to know why I didn't get them? Because. Why is that? American apparel shirts are awesome for the first six months that you wear them and then they're not.
Everett Yeah, they break. Yeah, they break. No, and that's true with these, but they're, but for the six months that they're, that they're in one piece, they're phenomenal. So, so I've got, I've got kind of a weird one, but I know it's something you guys have experienced with. So I thought we could just talk about it a little bit. Uh, iOS 14 dropped. And in terms of iOS updates, this is the first one I ever remember getting and thinking, this has got a bunch of shit. That I really like being, being an iPhone user since 2000 and roughly, I don't know, nine. I can never remember an iOS update coming out thinking this is awesome. I think iOS 14 is awesome.
Will I agree. Yep.
Mike And I mean, realistically, they added what they added two features.
Everett I mean, I think they added a lot more than two features, but yeah.
Mike I feel like there are two totally novel things, which is the app library and the widgets. And most importantly, I think the widgets stack.
Everett Yes.
Mike And then everything else was mostly things that are beefed up. Also, I think our group chat has greatly benefited by the inline reply. Particularly Will has benefited from that. Yes.
Everett I have already, I have already found myself. So, so we're talking to the group chat, uh, to the group chat experience. I've already found myself in Instagram DMS. Lamenting that I don't have the functionality of the new iOS group chat, you know, threaded replies, uh, the ability to tag someone and give them a special notification. Um, some of these things that are like actually. pragmatic and useful on a day-to-day basis. You know, we've been using, you know, we have a group chat, the four of us, including Andrew. We've been using, we've been using threaded replies and tagged messaging incessantly and a little bit silly, especially at first, but more recently actually productively, right? I mean, this is a fantastic set of tools.
Will Yeah. Well, let me just, tell you that before this came out, I was 14. Um, I was one of the, uh, I'm going to use a terrible buzzword right now. Oh no, even better. I was one of the initial champions of Microsoft teams at my workplace, which is basically the same crap as Slack. And when it comes to the inline replies and those conversations or whatever the hell Slack calls them, I got really pissed when people responded outside of the reply feature, and they started a new conversation, drove me nuts, because it's like, I can keep it organized. So I really like that organization. And when you guys are talking about the widgets in the app library, widgets, take it or leave them. But the app library, consolidation, get crap off my home screen, and the inline replies, fantastic. I love it.
Everett Now I'm going to give a shout out to the Android users out there who are chuckling at us because they're like, you know, we've had this shit for three years or five years or whatever it is.
Will Their phones break and they never can update them.
Everett Yeah. I'm going to no comment on that. But with that said, you know, these are not new, really the point being, these are not new functions, but it really feels like for the first time that I can remember, Apple's like, yeah, we're going to actually make our product significantly better in a useful, pragmatic way. I think Apple is really good at changing things that we don't know we need to be changed.
Mike Well, their whole, the new privacy suite that came out with iOS 14 is like, Oh yeah. I mean, I don't know if it's a facade, but they are fucking over a lot of third party people with the stepping it up. And I mean, there was, I guess enough app developers came at them and were like, well, you can't do this. Some feature where app developers have to ask permission for certain things. They delayed for a year because so many developers got upset.
Will Was it the microphone thing or something like that? It was one of the things where they're basically listening or watching.
Mike It's something fairly insidious.
Everett And so now, and so now Apple is telling you when these things are happening, right? We've actually got, there's a green light on my phone right now to tell me, Hey, the camera's watching you. Right. And there's an orange light that comes on if it's listening to me. So, um, I think these are things that people have been interested in. Um, and, and, and Apple's doing it. So that's it. I just want to say iOS 14 is actually really fucking cool. And if you haven't updated, I'd recommend it. It's a neat set of features.
Mike Um, can I highlight from, we really. covered the gamut from underground garlic mincer to widely available, and everybody already knows about it, iOS 14, with the perfect middleman, Sam's Club t-shirts.
Will Yeah. Got America right here shopping at Sam's Club.
Everett Yeah. It's fantastic. Mike, is there anything we're going to wrap here? Is there anything you want to add? Nothing else. Will, would you mind giving us a quick website update? What's come out in the last couple of weeks?
Will Yeah, we got a lot of good reviews. A couple from Mike. As we speak, I am putting out the review of the DIY Watch Club Diver Kit. Really excited to read that. Yeah. Yeah, it's a watch you assemble yourself, all that good stuff. I did a video review on it as well. A little bit on the assembly, but more on the actual watch itself, because at the end of the day, that's what you're getting. If you haven't read it, there's been a, I don't want to say controversial, but a much debated article on go anywhere, do anything watches by one of our new contributors, Casey.
Mike Great, great article. If you haven't read it, please go read it. It's very good.
Will And there's, there's a good reason for what I'm about to say. If you go and read it, it this week, it was the most popular article on the website period in terms of traffic. So definitely.
Mike Highlighting that that is beating out all of the Seiko reviews.
Will It is. It is not only beating out the two most popular Seiko reviews, which is the Dress KX and the SBDC 101, which is fairly new, but it's also beating out the blue watch that we all know and love, the Tudor Black Bay 58 Blue.
Everett I've heard that's a really nice blue. Yeah, I've heard it's really great blue. Can I ask a really specific question? Has Mike ever contributed anything as popular as the gotta watch as Casey's gotta watch it? No, not yet. No. All right. I was just, I was just wondering.
Mike I like to really just throw in duds.
Will Cannonballs. Mike is here for pure content volume.
Mike Yeah. Not quality. Quantity.
Everett Well, gentlemen, it's been real. Thanks for joining us and thank you. At home for joining us for this episode of 40 and 20, the Watch Clicker podcast. Check us on an Instagram at 40 and 20 at the Watch Clicker. Also check us out on the website. That's obviously where we drop all this cool shit that we've been talking about. If you want to support Watch Clicker or 40 and 20, we get all of our support at patreon.com slash 40 and 20. That's how we get microphones. That's how we pay for hosting. That's how we do the stuff that we're doing. Don't forget to tune back in next Thursday for another hour of watches, food, drinks, life. Bye-bye.