The Grey Nato - Ep 42 - Jason Lim of Halios Watches

Published on Tue, 05 Sep 2017 03:49:03 -0400

Synopsis

This is a transcript of a podcast interview with Jason Lim, the founder of Hallios Watches. The conversation covers Jason's background and how he started Hallios as a passion project after being deeply involved in the watch enthusiast community. They discuss the design philosophies behind Hallios watches, the challenges of being a one-person micro-brand operation, the importance of receiving feedback from customers, and Jason's future plans for expanding Hallios.

Transcript

Speaker
Interviewer Hello and welcome to episode 41 of The Grey Nado, a loose discussion of travel, adventure, diving, gear, and most certainly watches. As mentioned, we want to bring you more interviews, so as Jason is away in Sri Lanka and has been for the last couple weeks, I thought we'd kick off the interviews to cover for his travel and, you know, to ease you into all of this, we figured it would be best to start off the interview format with another Jason. I'm sitting across the table from Jason Lim in the top secret HQ for Hallios Watches here in Vancouver. Jason, welcome to the show, man.
Jason Lim Hello, nice to be here.
Interviewer How have things been? I think I'm catching you at roughly the busiest point in Hallios' tenure, maybe? Or maybe it would match your normal busy shipping times?
Jason Lim Yeah, pretty much. It's been pretty hectic, but, you know, it's all good.
Interviewer So, I mean, let's start where most people are probably sending you emails. What's the status of the C4? So this will come out early September. So by now they're sold out the first wave. Yes. Okay. Nobody should be writing you asking if they can get this or that right now.
Jason Lim No, hold on. Let me back up one second. I just wanted to say thank you for having me on I'm a big fan of what you and Jason are doing What you guys have built and what you're currently building. So it's it's an honor to be here. Oh, thank you. We appreciate that To answer your question The first batch is sold out. Okay, so Working on a second batch. It's that that's gonna be available in probably late fall. Okay Which, you know, according to my timelines is like late fall. Before Christmas. 2019. 2019.
Interviewer There you go. These things are tough though. Like it's really hard to predict when things are going to be, when things are going to be in place. I think people who have bought watches from you before realize that you are quite literally a one man machine. And the way that I know that you work is you're limited by, you're limited by the number of hours in the day. Right. There's only so many hours for you to work. And I know that you've pulled a lot of all day, all nights to get the C4th ready and then to get it shipped.
Jason Lim Yeah. It's, it's an unfortunate sort of confinement to be subject to, but not just that, not just the hours in the day, but also just the production process. So it's not as if, you know, let's say you produce a hundred pieces, a hundred pieces are ready to go, ready to sell. So I go through quite a number of iterations, prototyping as well as production runs. It's just all part of the quality control process.
Interviewer So with the sort of see-forth out of the way as far as news, I think it's probably helpful for some people to look back because it's not common that we would get a chance to sit and chat with someone who runs one of these successful... I don't even know what the term is for it anymore. It used to be indie, like I think on Watch You Seek we would call it, call Hallios and York contemporaries indies but then if you look at the wider scope people that's what people call Sarpaneva and MB&F and Laurent Ferrier and you know some places that make 10 watches a year in a big year and well I don't know what do you prefer as far as a term do you care does it make any difference?
Jason Lim You know I'm really really happy to be mentioned in the same breath as those companies thank you very much. For sure. About the same level right?
Interviewer Yeah yeah yeah.
Jason Lim I think the prevalent term these days is micro-brand.
Interviewer And do you think that's fair? I mean, I think it makes sense because it is one dude, whereas some brands have an army.
Jason Lim Yeah, absolutely. I'm totally comfortable with micro-brand for sure.
Interviewer So, I mean, I'm not really sure where necessarily you spoke a little bit about, you know, production timelines. What is it like to be in one place, Vancouver, and have the watch being sourced from all over the world. I mean, your watches are predominantly Asian sourced.
Jason Lim That's right.
Interviewer And is that, I assume that's not, you know, I made, we had patches sampled for Grenado via, you know, Alibaba. So I've literally scratched a fingernail into the edge of getting something made in Asia. And it was not difficult, but it was a lot of strange communications back and forth. And I can't imagine what it's like to try and make something as perfect as what you dream of for a watch.
Jason Lim Yeah, that's a great point. I think ideally that, you know, as close to production as possible would be fantastic, but that's typically not, um, right now it's not feasible. So, um, one of the things that I do for, for large production runs is actually travel there and QC the watches before they ship them back here.
Interviewer So you've already finalized a design, you've seen some samples, and you go there to see what would essentially be what they're going to make and start shipping to assembly groups and getting other things together?
Jason Lim Yeah, exactly. Well, I guess I should again back up a bit and sort of comment on the sort of box that is, you know, like a value brand. Right. So I think if If you're Richard Mille or MB&F, the idea is working outside of the box and destroying the box. And I love speaking to architects because the way they approach design, it's all like, you know, how can we kind of optimize this confinement, this space that we're given? And that's sort of what kind of faces the value brand. So you've got a price point that you have to hit. You've got, you know, you're working with Asian suppliers I don't want to say limited capability, but definitely not up to the caliber that, you know, like a higher end brand would be capable of. Right. And as a watch guy, you want to pack as much value into that box as possible. So there are challenges as far as prototyping. You have to do the multiple times, multiple iterations. And even then, if you get a perfect prototype, when the production run comes, there's still going to be a lot of tweaking to be done. So with the C4th batch they shipped to me, there's, you know, with every batch, even the Puck and the Laguna, it comes to my office here in Vancouver, and there are certain tweaks and adjustments that I have to do here in Vancouver as well. So if you're selling a watch for under a certain price point, there, you know, there has to be that value add, that sort of hands-on sort of after production finishing, if you will.
Interviewer With all of those, with any sort of those steps, so that's even when you're talking about essentially the last stage of what they would send you still requires hands-on for anything that goes out the door.
Jason Lim Absolutely. At the very least, a very thorough QC.
Interviewer Right.
Jason Lim And it doesn't really make much sense from a business and time perspective based on the price point, but I mean, this is my baby.
Interviewer Unlike some brands in the quote-unquote micro-brand space, you're receiving all the watches into Vancouver, QCing them yourself, putting them in boxes and sending them.
Jason Lim Yes, that's right. QCing, testing them, putting them in boxes. But I don't want to say that unlike most of micro-brands. I know a lot of micro-brand owners who do a lot of the same things. They go through a lot of the same processes.
Interviewer But there are some micro-brands that the watch would ship and if you had a problem would return to Shenzhen or... I don't know. Not sure. Okay. Fair enough. I've, I've returned a few that I, you know, were on loan for review and they were returned to, uh, mainland China. The factory. Correct. Okay. Sure. That's another way of doing it. Yeah, for certain. And, and it's not to say that that's of a lesser quality, but you're able to ensure that the watch that leaves is up to your standard. Yeah, absolutely. I probably should have done a little bit of consideration before I got to this question, but you're now into seven or eight watches. Or more like 9 or 10?
Jason Lim No, I think 7 or 8 models.
Interviewer And what would you say has changed, not necessarily in your process, but in what's available? Because you don't use off-the-shelf cases.
Jason Lim That's right.
Interviewer Which you can see commonly in Kickstarter brands or other things. These are cases, and there's nothing wrong with this. Again, it's a way of keeping the costs reasonable, paying the people who make the watches, all those sorts of things. But you don't use off-the-shelf cases. There is a high component of customization to your designs, they have to meet, you're not working necessarily to fit something into a case or a dial or a hand that already exists, you're going to have that made. Yeah, that's right. So in that situation, since the holotype, what's changed in what's available to be made? Is the quality better? Is the what you can perceivably receive of a higher quality? Or is the manufacturing getting better? Or do you have to just learn to kind of trick your way into the highest quality of manufacturing?
Jason Lim You know what? I think in general, the quality and the availability and the access to these manufacturers has improved. And I like to think that, you know, we, the micro brand owners that started around, you know, 2006 to 2010, have a bit of a part to play in that.
Interviewer Well, you're a catalyst of some sort in there. Yeah, exactly. Learning more about maybe CAD or tolerances or movement fitaments, things like all sorts of various things. Like as more and more demand came up, they would conceivably get better at producing the constituent parts.
Jason Lim Definitely. And the thing is with Kickstarter and, you know, the proliferation of watch forums, social media, a lot more people want to make watches. So when that happens, the suppliers, they kind of sense an opportunity. And, you know, they make themselves much more available to whoever wants to make a watch. So I would say in general, as far as Asian production goes, I would like to think that the mid-range has improved, I think.
Interviewer And if you still want to make a watch for $12 and sell it for a couple hundred bucks at Macy's or whatever, that's still going to be your main way to get it done. Well, yeah, for sure.
Jason Lim Definitely. That's our second line coming in. fall of 2000.
Interviewer For sure yeah the uh Hallios at Macy's or a sub-brand you don't want to call it.
Jason Lim The Hallios Wellington.
Interviewer Yeah exactly yeah and if you look at if you look at the scene as a whole because I think you know you probably have a perspective that none of the listeners have I mean there might be a couple other guys that run watch brands that listen to the show and I've certainly dealt with a handful of these guys and I find that The common bond between you and your compatriots at this size of the level or at this level of game is tenacity. It's willing to go back and keep fighting for what you wanted in the design or what you wanted in the product or maybe what you want in the next product. And have you seen the audience side, the other perspective grow in terms of their willingness to spend say $700 to $900, that's roughly where you would fall once all the dust settles, U.S. I guess even a little less than that.
Jason Lim Yeah, let's talk about, I think compatriots is an excellent word. I'm really glad you didn't say competitor because that's kind of how I feel personally.
Interviewer I see a lot of people who own one from a lot, so I don't necessarily see it as like you definitely come across threads on watch you see where the person saying should I go to see fourth or should I get this or should I get this or should I get this? But I think you scroll down, you see guys saying like, I have two of these, I have two of those, I have two of these. And it's, it's not necessarily that the price gets you there. But I think the value statement spreads across a wide swath of these sorts of brands, these micro brands, if we will. And it's interesting to Yeah, I think it's more of a team effort in changing some level of the enthusiast mind towards what's now possible and flat out wasn't 20 years ago, or maybe even 15 years ago. Maybe it could. I mean, we know the really early micro brands had some success, but very few of those are necessarily still around in their same iteration. It's a lot of a generation around, like you said, the mid to late 2000s that are still turning out more models.
Jason Lim Yeah, I think that's a great analogy. It kind of, kind of brings to mind the, the Japanese auto industry. I don't know exactly what the date is. I want to say the 1990s where Toyota and Nissan, they kind of, um, work together to, to, to share kind of like similar engines and R and D and production.
Interviewer They all limited the, all put out 276 horsepower and they all had the same top speed and they all had actual different horsepowers, but still like on paper.
Jason Lim Yeah.
Interviewer There was a working together effort to establish the concept of a Japanese car as a very specific thing. So that you kind of knew what you got, regardless of the brand.
Jason Lim Yeah, definitely. It really feels like that when I see these guys at the watch shows. At the watch fairs and you know Steve from from Banaras or I should say Raven. Yeah Raven huge fan of Raven and Banaras. Yeah For years chip from AVIG is another guy Michael from Gavox Bill Yao, he's he's a little different as far as what he brings to the table But yeah, I think we're all in kind of the same sort of I don't want to say fight but the same sort of pursuit and the one thing that kind of is a common thread is these guys love what they do. So when I'm talking to these guys, you're not saying, you know, I'm producing a watch for as little as I can. So, you know, if a customer will email me and say, you know, tell me about the Seaforth, how does it wear? And if they say, you know, I want something a little chunkier, I'm going to say, look at the Trekker, which is a fantastic watch. Yeah. But to answer your, your second question was, which is, Um, how the audience or the, how the customers are kind of, um, taking the, I guess our offerings is there. I'm seeing a lot more. Um, price pressure downwards. So you've got a lot of companies offering watches from say, I don't know, 400 to $500. And the customer is going to look at, you know, they're going to say they're using the exactly the same movement as you. Right. So why is your six to $700? So there's a lot of that as well that I'm seeing, especially on the forums. And on the forums, you tend to, I don't want to generalize, but you tend to have a lot more value driven customers. They're great. And they're kind of, kind of like a minefield because it's, it's weird. I don't think there's any other industry or occupation where somebody sort of breaks down your work even without owning it. And some of them, they say some really cutting things just because, you know, they have access to a keyboard. But the thing is, I don't begrudge them even one bit.
Interviewer Another part of an ecosystem that supports the total. So if you zoom out a bit, they have a lot of, I think there's still a value even in the garbage that that's put out in some cases. And yeah, you always have to question the output of somebody who hasn't held the said product in their hand. Um, obviously if they have a huge level of experience or if they also manufacture watches, there's some assumptions that they could jump to about a product, but a lot of these guys just. Not so much armchair quarterback, but kind of look over their newspaper and over their glasses and say like, well, this, this, and this, and then leave the thread.
Jason Lim Sure. But you know what, that's, that's supremely, supremely valuable to me. Because I think that's the biggest selling point, how it looks, how it makes you feel when you first see it. The gut reaction? Yeah, just that visceral reaction. What do you think of it? And even without handling it, I mean, that's extremely valid. Even if they say personal stuff like, you know, he can't handle his orders or whatever. It's all good because, you know, any feedback is valuable to me.
Interviewer Because it represents, it comes from somewhere, right?
Jason Lim Yeah. It's like that scene from Chef. You know, Jon Favreau, he confronts Oliver Platt. He goes, it hurts. It does, but you know, I, I completely value it and it's necessary.
Interviewer And do you find that you, this, this is beyond the, certainly the watch discussion, but do you find that because you work and thrive within an internet space, do you find that you internalize that feedback and move it forward? Do you carry that like angst? Does it keep you sharp? Like now I'm going to heat. You went to, uh, you went to chef. I've gone to, uh, uh, Pacino in heat. Like, you know, he holds onto that angst to keep them sharp, keep them, you know, firing for the next case. Like, do you find that you'll, you'll hear the echoes of some of this feedback as you start to CAD out a new drawing or pick where to put a date window or maybe no date window or something like that.
Jason Lim You know what, I'll spare you my Pacino impression because I don't really have one.
Interviewer No impressions allowed on this show. We have no rules except that, I guess.
Jason Lim But yeah, but to answer your question, absolutely. I mean, I'm 21 years old, but I look like I'm 40. I think it's the other way around. But that's what drives you. I mean, that's what makes it worth getting up for. That's what makes it valuable. You know, I mean, you could have a thousand positive comments. And then that one comment will come in and they'll say, the lugs are too short, or, you know, I would buy it if it were one millimeter thicker, something like that.
Interviewer Or just, I hate it. Yeah. I hate it and you're terrible. You hate it.
Jason Lim Yeah. And it's, it's hard not to internalize it. Cause that's, I mean, it's your design. It's your, your, your passion. It's your inspiration. But I mean, it's, as I said before, going back to my previous comment, it's all valuable.
Interviewer I go back and forth on, on, Commenting and there's times when I think it's like supremely valued to the health of a community But supremely damaging to the people who create things for that community because you can just rob somebody of their motivation to even grow With some of the comments you get the watch community. I Don't know. I've been in it for say 10 years now. I find they're a very hopeful group They always not all not everybody but I would say as a group they tend to always hope for the best of anything So even when something comes out and it's not what they're expecting or it's the wrong size or the date window is bad or something like that, there's always the next time, maybe on the next one, the person will do this or that. And it's always, you know, they always know there's another watch coming. I think there's a safety in that never ending kind of generational cycle of evolution with these sorts of products. And I think that exists even to the guys that say exclusively love Rolex is they probably all wanted the ceramic Daytona two years earlier, right? But they knew that you just wait, wait for the evolution, wait for the change. And sometimes it's what you want and sometimes it's not. But I think that's inherent in product design. And I just find it funny because you have to wonder how much a brand that isn't kind of born and bred on the internet is concerned with the feedback.
Jason Lim Well, as long as you're not Rolex, then I think you should be concerned.
Interviewer Really like it. They get that's carte blanche, maybe for them just kind of do as they please.
Jason Lim I would think so.
Interviewer I can't necessarily disagree with that logic. It's just interesting because I think a lot of brands are just kind of just now approaching Instagram. I mean, a lot of brands are very successful on Instagram, but if you look at their posts, what they're doing is essentially marketing. It's it's instead of putting an ad in a magazine, they put it on their Instagram channel. It's not communication. And certainly Rolex isn't communicating with the people who like the photos on their channel. But for a brand like you, that level of communication is crucial. Right?
Jason Lim That's right. Absolutely. And going back to the big brands, I think it's really heartening and exciting to see these big brands kind of embrace their user base and their fan base, just like Omega and the Speedy Tuesday. So cool. Absolutely fantastic. And I loved the Skipper. Edition with beautiful. Yeah, amazing. And that was due to the feedback from customers and social media. But for me, yes, it's it's absolutely crucial. And the funny thing was, um, Helios actually, I think it's been, I want to say a year and a half on Instagram. And it was kind of funny because I was speaking to a person, I think she was She was in her 20s, you know, one of those young people.
Interviewer Okay.
Jason Lim And I was so excited. I said, you know what? I just joined Instagram and this was in 2000 and what? 15. And she looked at me like, dude, where have you been for the last? It's pretty much dead already.
Interviewer It's like we've moved on. And this is before the algorithm changed. Yeah, exactly. Those sweet days.
Jason Lim But I wouldn't, I've met a few guys that, that consider themselves to be great marketers. I don't think I'm a great marketer. I think it's, absolutely fun to take great pictures of a watch and post it and share it, get feedback.
Interviewer For sure.
Jason Lim So, I mean, I guess I should have a more specific and more focused marketing plan, but right now it's just, a lot of it is just fueled by what I love doing.
Interviewer But I mean, your company would have, you know, the, a hierarchy of needs and that is evidenced by your, let's say, not up-to-date website in terms of design?
Jason Lim It's up-to-date for 1992. My first, very first priority is current customers. So I get a lot of inquiries from them, repairs, that sort of thing. So if there's a question about an upcoming model, I might not be able to get to it because there just aren't enough hours in the day.
Interviewer And you're not only You know, running the company, but you're also the designer, shipping and receiving. Yeah. QC, customer service, marketing, PR.
Jason Lim It's funny because I read on a recent post on a forum and there was speculation because the Seaforth was sold out and wasn't available. And the speculation was that I enjoyed a certain lifestyle where I didn't want to work more than like eight hours, six hours a day or something, which is kind of
Interviewer It's a little upsetting because I've gotten to know you since I moved to Vancouver and we've talked about doing an interview, a chat like this on mic for probably more than two years. And obviously the fact that we picked just a couple of days after the C4 sold out entirely shows what the general pace of your lifestyle is. It's pretty much go, go, go all the time to keep this sort of thing alive. somebody ever asked me, Oh, James, what about starting a watch company? I would go, Nope, I've seen what that's like. I'd rather, I don't know, take pictures of watches or, or talk into a mic about watches or something. The, the, the act of making the whole watch from the ground up is, uh, laborious at best. And I think, uh, the guys that are doing it with even two or three people are probably overworked, let alone the dudes make and do with, uh, you know, themselves. to turn out to annual product. I mean, what do you figure a product cycle is for a Hallius watch from when you, how long ago did you start working on the C4?
Jason Lim I think it was probably about a year. So it probably takes about a year from concept to final delivery of the production.
Interviewer So if it's a year, do you have a six month overlap where you have you know, multiple watches, because for a while you kind of did the holotype, then it ended, then you did the blue ring, and it ended, and then you started to blend this sort of calendar.
Jason Lim Yeah, definitely. Probably about no more than two or three at a time will be available, so very likely two, and then there'll be a little gap where, you know, a couple weeks or so where there's nothing available, and then something comes back in stock. But, I mean, to answer your earlier question about the website, I think it's extremely crucial.
Interviewer You think so? Yes. I was just teasing you. I mean, the website is functional and it shows the details of the product. And I would also point out that I would say it's relatively a trend, not unanimous, but it's a trend in the micro brands to have simple websites.
Jason Lim Right. I mean, there's a difference between simple and non-existent.
Interviewer Well, yours is there. It's not a MySpace profile or like a Facebook fan page with an email address. Yours exists and it has photography and the specs for the watches.
Jason Lim So I'm one step up from a GeoCities site?
Interviewer Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, like if you opened a Squarespace and typed Hallios into a page, you're a few steps beyond that.
Jason Lim You know, the funny thing is a couple of years ago, I delivered a watch, a local customer. She bought a watch for her fiance. She was a copywriter by trade. Cool. And she said to me, she looked me straight in the eyes and she said, you know, Jason, I noticed there's nothing on your about page.
Interviewer It's just blank? It just goes to a dead 404s?
Jason Lim It's just the lorem ipsum or some sort of gif with like Minecraft or something like that. Sure. And I said, yes, you know what I'm working on? I'm working on it. And she said, OK, fine. And I explained to her about the watch and told her how to work it and, you know, the functions and all that. And this, this was the Laguna. And then she said, okay, that's fine. Now, what about your about page? I'm a copywriter and it's very important. It's very crucial. One of the biggest reasons, it's not laziness or time. It's just that I haven't, I haven't put together the sequence of words that adequately describe what this company means to me and what watches mean to me. You know, I want to come up with like 10 words that just perfectly describe this obsession. Sure.
Interviewer Well, I mean, let's give it a run. Let's turn a corner a little bit. Your watches are, I would say quite specifically and from your onset, not homages to other designs, other famous designs in the space. And obviously, tons of brands make very successful homages or tributes or bear watches with very similar aesthetic qualities to famous dive watches. That's been a longstanding, um, pattern within the micro brand space. Obviously the decision, I would say, obviously the decision to not go that route must be intentional, but where do you get the inspiration for your designs? If you look at something like a Laguna, it's vastly different from something like a Seaforth. So it's not like you had one design in your mind and you're just kind of Iterating, you have, you know, the puck is kind of unlike anything you're going to see otherwise. I mean, maybe it has similarities in overall proportions to other watches, but not in aesthetic. Where do you kind of find your, your kind of footing when you're approaching the design of a watch?
Jason Lim Well, so, so I'm a huge fan of archetypes and I think, I think the, why the Seaforth is so successful is because it's kind of familiar. But as you said, it's kind of an iteration, a reimagination of an archetype. And it's kind of an aside, but it makes me think of... Have you seen Ghost in the Shell, the movie? I haven't.
Interviewer Nor the anime.
Jason Lim It's a fantastic movie. It got panned by critics in general, but I mean, nothing can come close to the anime. To the anime, okay. And one of the reasons that I really enjoyed it was it's shot in Hong Kong. And it's kind of like this future, but you can still kind of recognize Hong Kong. Like when you watch Blade Runner, it's just some sort of nondescript, generic Asian scene in the future, and you can't really imagine it as being part of our timeline. So with Ghost in the Shell, the reason why I kind of loved it is because it was so familiar, but it wasn't the same as what we've seen before. And so that's kind of what I try to bring to the table, not try to, but I want to bring to the table. So there's the archetype of, let's say, the thinner dressy diver. Or let's say the ugly, angular, sort of cylindrical case that's the puck. Or something kind of retro. And it's kind of familiar, but it's a reimagination. So that's kind of where my design inspiration comes from.
Interviewer Do you think that the pillars of good watch design change from one watch to another, or are there static attributes that you think you would apply to anything?
Jason Lim I definitely think there are static attributes. A lot of people like to say, you know, the, what is it called? The golden rule. Yeah, I don't think that really applies, but I think it's just proportions that really sort of click and are pleasing to the eye. And one company that really, really nails it for me is Panerai. I mean, just Fantastic placement of the numerals, the case to crystal ratio. It's a balance. It's definitely a balance. Yeah. So even Doxa, where they have that tiny little porthole crystal, I mean, the dial proportions and the hand proportions are just so well done.
Interviewer Just the tiniest hour hand, but somehow it works. Amazing. Right? Yeah. I think it's the big markers seem to balance out the deficit of the hour hand. I've thought of that, like this specific conversation before I've looked at this watch and gone like,
Jason Lim it doesn't look like other watches it should fail like it doesn't seem to follow convention but i guess it is it is a do you think do you think that balance is the issue when a watch is unsuccessful in its design i think balance is everything so when i come up with a new design i agonize probably like unnecessarily i agonize over the millimeter to the half millimeter so i go through multiple iterations and at some point i mean it's like three, four months into the design, I have to say, you know, I'm cutting it off. I'm just deciding on this. I think this is the best. And then I open the file again and it's like, oh, you know.
Interviewer You're just tapping once in Photoshop. You can't see the change, but it's one click up or down makes all the difference. You can't see it. You cannot see the logo move or the marker move or whatever. Just that one click. Just one nudge and I'm like, I'm a genius. Problem solved. Problem solved. All the problems solved. Ship it. So with that, what would you say some of kind of your favorite watches are, watches that have kind of stuck with you? Because I assume you didn't just get into this laborious type of work because you felt like it. You've been into watches for most of your life, most of your adult life.
Jason Lim You know, I've listened to a lot of podcasts with watch company founders, and all the stories start with, when I was a kid and my father handed... Of course. What's wrong with these people? They're so sentimental and maudlin. So here's my story, which is more kick-ass. Okay. When I was a kid... I didn't predict that. That's great. My father... I mean, it's the same story. When I was a kid, my dad would travel a lot for work, and every time he'd come back, he'd give me a little, you know, he'd pick me up a little souvenir, and it would be like a Casio or a Seiko digital.
Interviewer Okay.
Jason Lim And that's kind of where it started for me. Eventually he picked me up an M watch made by Mondain. Okay. And this was sometime in the eighties. And it's actually in this office, but I defy you to find it.
Interviewer I couldn't find anything in this office. What are you saying? I'm in a cave of boxes.
Jason Lim Boxes and awesomeness.
Interviewer Yeah. No, I mean, this, this is the, this is the office of somebody who's attempting to get a lot of work done.
Jason Lim So, so that's, That was kind of my first obsession with the watch. It was just a small analog display quartz with Arabic numerals, a nice little rubber strap. And the next obsession was, I don't know if, have you watched Blue Thunder with Roy Scheider? No. Oh.
Interviewer I love Roy Scheider, I don't know Blue Thunder.
Jason Lim Look it up. There is a Casio digital watch in there. Okay. And it was, I think, I don't know if it was, I don't know if it was normal for the time, but it had a stainless steel case and this awesome kind of like, um, link bracelet. And it had the most amazing sort of, um, display, like just like a, uh, I don't know how to describe it. Just look it up. Roy Scheider, Blue Thunder Casio. And that was, I remember that being my next obsession. Check the show notes. I'll try and find it. And then from then I sort of graduated to, you know, as all, kind of watch nuts, kind of the path that they take, Seiko, kind of like the gateway sort of watch. So I purchased a whole bunch of cheap Seikos, vintage, started tearing them down, modding them, fixing them. And then I moved on to the forums, where I bought and sold a ton of stuff. This is for Watch You Seek Time Zone. Watch You Seek Time Zone, exactly.
Interviewer Got heavily into it.
Jason Lim 15 years ago, something like that? Something like that, yeah. Actually got into Panerai a little bit, Zin, Marathon.
Interviewer Sweet time for Panerai.
Jason Lim Fantastic. $1,500 for like a 111E. I remember that.
Interviewer What a thing, right?
Jason Lim Yeah. And so I was buying and selling, and it wasn't a story of, you know, kind of sitting down and saying, what could I do with my career? You know, I wanted to do something I love. It kind of was like that. I kind of was in the midst of buying and selling these watches, and I thought, Dude, I want to ensconce myself in horology. I want to drape myself in watchery. I want to be this. I want to be this. I want to design this. It's me. It's totally me. Yeah. And so that's how the company kind of started.
Interviewer I assume, I mean, I know you well enough to know that you have some watches that aren't Halleous watches. Anything that stands out for you as far as a pillar of good design or just something that you like for maybe a reason that isn't obvious? Absolutely.
Jason Lim I can, I can honestly say this very fairly. I can find beauty in almost any watch if the intent is sincere and earnest. So it's not just a gimmick. Yeah. It's not a gimmick. Cause there's a lot of stuff. I don't want to disparage any company that's out there, but it seems like there's a lot of minimalist watches out there right now. But I think one of the ways you can kind of differentiate is the fake minimalist is stuff. It just looks like there's stuff left out. But when you have some real design chops, it's stuff distilled down to what's essential. So you can totally tell the difference right away. But to answer your question, I'm a big fan of my fellow micro brand companies. So Raven, Avig, I love Gavox, Bill Yao, MK2, Astron Banks from Chicago. For sure. They're awesome as well. And Doxa, I just adore Doxa.
Interviewer There's something unbelievable about Doxa. It confounds me that Doxa today isn't a contemporary of Rolex or Blancpain or, you know, it must've just been the happening of market and business practices and things like that, that put them where they are. Because short of something like developing their own movements many years ago, they have an unbelievable history. history that any other dive watch company would love to buy and exploit for as long as possible. And they make some stunningly beautiful watches. Both modern, like I mean, all DOCSIS kind of have a DOCSIS aesthetic, but that line crosses outside of what the most postmodern sort of watch design topics could lay on where It's not designed for the sake of design. They've carried kind of an aesthetic across a great deal of watches. So you can see it kind of in a lot of different places. Doxa is a really fascinating brand for me. And obviously their products are longstanding at this point, but there's something about the aesthetic that is lasting.
Jason Lim Nothing looks like a Doxa. No. I think you're right in stating that it's part business practice because they don't sell in boutiques. In Asia, they do, but it's just their line that's not nearly as iconic or definitive as their diver line. But I don't know. Yeah, I think it just boils down to just business practice. I guess they're able to stay lean. They don't have to market to retail.
Interviewer Yeah, I'm not necessarily saying that their goal should have been to have been a Rolex or a Blancpain. I'm just surprised that given their history, they didn't end up right next to those brands. And I think maybe dive watch, deep dive watch enthusiasts would put them together, would put a sub next to a, you know, a sub 300 or something like that. And certainly I think the old ones, they sit right next to each other really well, an old Submariner, an old sub 300, but the, you know, the modern Doxa isn't fighting for the mid-level luxury dollar.
Jason Lim Yeah, I think they're- It's just a different scene now. I think there, is it 30th anniversary? Am I getting the decade wrong?
Interviewer The one that just came out.
Jason Lim The 50th. 50th. Sorry. I think it was, I think it was the release of the year.
Interviewer One of the, one of the best watches, I would say that that watch came up very hard against a nearly perfect sports watch in the SRP 777 in the same year. And obviously if you have the funds by both, They're both amazing watches. I finally got a chance at Basel to see the, the 50th anniversary 300s. And I mean that Sea Rambler, the silver dial, it's very big orange minute hand. I love that watch. Um, and obviously the 777, I'm not sure we've spoken about any watch more on the Grenado. So there's no reason to retread that ground, but some really great watches, uh, you know, last year, uh, with those two. And both kind of vintage-inspired. Well, I mean, very directly vintage-inspired in both cases.
Jason Lim Yeah, that's right. The Turtle was phenomenal. I handled one, yours actually, and the case finishing was... It's unmatched in that price range.
Interviewer The price is bonkers. What you get for that watch in the dial, the fitment, the bezel's great. It's a better bezel than an 007, and a better dial, and the case is really impressive.
Jason Lim Even at three times the price, I would say.
Interviewer What do they run for? Uh, three. I mean, you can get them all day long for about 300 us.
Jason Lim Yeah. Even under a thousand bucks. It's fun.
Interviewer Yeah, they could. I mean, I don't think they would sell to the same buyer if they sold them for 900 us, but I don't think that they would be overpriced at that price point. They just wouldn't find, I mean, luckily Seiko can make so many and they're so good at their product, their vertical integration that they can offer them for 300 bucks. Uh, but I mean, it's a, it's, it's a whole different sort of thing. Is that a comparison point for Halios, Seiko? Or it's hard to game?
Jason Lim You know what, it's very easy to game. I don't think anybody can compare to Seiko. It's certainly one of the companies that I kind of aspire to emulate as far as production capability and quality for the price, but I don't think... The RQC is unbelievable for like, you look at a Seiko 5 and you'd expect
Interviewer I don't know how many times I've told somebody to buy a Seiko 5, and eventually after they buy a couple junk watches, they come back and they buy the 5 I linked them originally. It's pretty much the same story every time. And they never arrive broken or with a problem on the dial or a bezel that's garbage or something like that. It's amazing what they can offer for $100. Yeah, you know what?
Jason Lim That's in my 50-year plan. Be like Seiko. Someday.
Interviewer That's your tattoo. Be like Seiko. Do as Seiko do.
Jason Lim So what do you think about the the new diver that they came out with, the 62 MAS?
Interviewer I think it's fantastic. I also think that people who want to complain about the price point of that thing are like people who complained about the price point of the 911R.
Jason Lim Is that a car reference?
Interviewer It is, yeah. I mean 911R is maybe not the right example, but I mean technically the 62 MAS came out in the 60s and the original 911R was 67, so that's where my brain went. Obviously hugely different price points, but to think that they would reissue a very famous watch from their history during a time when dive watches almost couldn't be hotter, let alone vintage dive watches, and then charge 800 bucks for it is ludicrous. The watch is unbelievable in person. It's really beautiful. It's just the right size. The quality's outstanding. And they're going to be gone. And then you'll pay extra for them on WatchRecon. I mean, that's your problem, basically. Is it a lot to spend on a Seiko? No doubt. It doesn't say Grand Seiko on the dial. That's going to matter to some people. Is it too much for what the watch is? No. Just watch them sell.
Jason Lim Right. Yeah, absolutely. It's funny when you, you read sometimes the comments, I would have bought it if, you know, I would have bought it if it was $500.
Interviewer Well, that's great. Yeah. And we all would have bought nine 11 hours. We would have all bought nine 11 hours for the list price. If we had known that people were going to be flipping them for five, six, $700,000 a little while later.
Jason Lim Yeah, exactly. Well, you lost me with the 911 because I stopped paying attention after the 356A and Singer.
Interviewer Those are fine. Those are fine places, those are fine touchstones, and I'm not a car podcast, so we won't necessarily go down that road. I've definitely talked and shared enough videos about the 911R. If somebody listening would like to start their own watch brand, what are all the things that most do wrong at the start that they could cut out? What's the fat? that gets in the way of making or shipping or creating what might be your goal, regardless of what the watch is going to look like. What are the common mistakes?
Jason Lim I think the biggest one that stands out to me is getting into it for the wrong reasons. Because when you really think about it and you analyze it from an economic standpoint, watches are, it's folly to start a watch company. What other product requires so much after sales service? I mean, I've got customers emailing me about the holotype, which came out in 2009. Can you provide a crown for it? Absolutely. I can. So there's so much after sales service involved. And if you don't give a sh, then you're going to fail. So there, there are some, some phenomenal notable companies, for example, Daniel Wellington, like a lot of people like to bag on them and, and sort of disparage them, but genius. Absolutely genius and I don't think they're watch people and I don't think necessarily they're really concerned with coming up with something that's you know, like Definitive or so not selling to watch people exactly right, but I'm just saying if if There's so many ways you can slice the the watch market I guess But I think the first thing you should start with that I would start with that I would say to someone start with passion Love watches, love your customers, understand what they're going through when they're thinking about buying a watch. One of the reasons why I wanted to start a watch company was I remember when, you know, flipping, buying watches. It's like Christmas, man. It's like Christmas in a DHL box.
Interviewer Do it every two weeks or, you know, you just keep it going, keep it rolling the same money again and again and again.
Jason Lim Exactly. Like there's such amazing little pieces of machinery. So I would say start with passion. I think as far as manufacturing goes, they're fairly easy to find now. Alibaba or whatever you might wish. But the other thing as well is do your legwork. If you're going to source from Asia, travel there. Look at the factories, talk to the people. Even that doesn't guarantee success because with their workforce, there's a lot of volatility. A lot of the skill level, sometimes it sort of ebbs and flows. But yeah, do your legwork, love watches. I think that's just the two things that I would say you start with.
Interviewer So if you're in it for financial gain and the island lifestyle, you know, Jimmy Buffett and Pina Coladas and The Sun all the time, it's probably not best to get into selling enthusiast watches to enthusiasts.
Jason Lim Yeah, trying to make money from the enthusiast crowd is like, I don't know, getting a tan from a blowtorch, man. It's like trial by fire. It doesn't work very well.
Interviewer It's a delicate process.
Jason Lim That's right. I mean, if you're, your heart's not in the right place.
Interviewer I think they sense it. I think people sense it immediately. Uh, any disingenuous sort of answers or replies. I mean, we've seen it on some very high level problems with brands where their responses to certain PR issues was Not forthcoming enough or not seemingly honest enough. It felt like too much of a line. And if you distill that down, you know, not a giant brand, you know, tied to a huge luxury group or something like that. And you distill that down and you actually have to type your thoughts into a window for watch you seek or for Instagram. I think people can sense the presence of a disingenuous. thought or pattern, even like even over their ability to understand anger versus sarcasm, which is impossible on the internet. Right. I just think that they're very, people are very finely tuned to understand when they're not being told what, what they deserve to be told, especially when it comes to things like customer service. And I, you know, I think the internet's very much expanded that vocabulary.
Jason Lim Yeah, definitely. I think the BS meter is very strong, but I mean, at the same time, Information is kind of permanent on the internet, but at the same time it's also transitory So I think brands that want to they can kind of you know, they can move past a snafu or a gaffe or whatever It's just like if it's a one-man show trying to do a startup The question is whether he or she wants to put up with all that To take the company to the next level to five ten years, right? Because, I mean, it never really feels like it's, you know, you're set. Watches are, you know, watchers are shipping. I can go to the tanning salon or whatever.
Interviewer I could take a week off.
Jason Lim Yeah.
Interviewer But then you come back to 20,000 emails or whatever. Exactly. And was it worth the time off? It's hard to say.
Jason Lim Yeah. And a lot of micro band owners do it because they love watches.
Interviewer That's, I would say that's the unifying factor in all that I've met or emailed or worked with in the last, you know, 10 years to source watches is These guys aren't above beyond or nobody's beyond say making mistake or learning the process, but all of them got into it because they were so deep into watches. They couldn't do anything else. They didn't get into this because they saw a bunch of money to be made necessarily. I think some are making good money, which is awesome. Love that. But I think so many of these guys, many of whom you've mentioned kind of got there because they couldn't do anything else. They just kept, you know, probably were just designing watches all the time. or critiquing other designs. And finally we're like, well, I'll get it made. Let's try this out. And luckily the internet makes that possible and the forums make it possible to connect with some speed to an audience, especially if they like your designs. And I mean, I guess that's probably a, as good, as good a spot as any to kind of wrap up, but where do you see, do you want to talk a kind of future for Hallios? We'll start with a new website. New website. Okay. Maybe important, maybe not. I don't think we got to the bottom of that.
Jason Lim We'll start with an about page. Well... Don't hold your breath. But I think the next logical step would be retail. Definitely not a large sort of retail outlet that carries a whole bunch of brands. So what I'm seeing around the world, in Vancouver sometimes, in Korea, sometimes in the States as well, A lot of these boutique owners, they're sort of tuned into the micro band watch world, the smaller independent brands that they kind of get behind and sort of share the same vision with. I mean, Rolldorf is a great example. For sure. Jason Gallop at Rolldorf. So I think retail will be the next step. Yeah, I think that would be the next biggest step.
Interviewer And any scoops, any hints, anything you want to put out for a future model or no chance? I guess there's another wave of C-4ths coming? C-4ths? Which we talked about.
Jason Lim Yeah, C-4ths are coming, but you know what? One thing that I would like to explore is maybe have some cases or some watches assembled here in Vancouver. So, you know, some crazy stuff. Andrew from Astor & Banks, we were in Geneva a couple of months ago and it's a watch show and we're seeing some crazy, crazy movements like stuff like monopush or chronographs. You know, some might think that's antiquated or whatever, but it's still like cool factors. Yeah. Amazing.
Interviewer Um, like a dog leg shifter in a car.
Jason Lim Yeah. And one thing that I would really love to put together is an alarm watch. So that's kind of my very cool.
Interviewer Yeah. Uncommon.
Jason Lim Yeah. Um, GMT is definitely on the radar, but you know, these things may or may not happen. Let's start with the website for sure.
Interviewer Website first. World domination later.
Jason Lim There you go.
Interviewer All right. Well, I can't thank you enough for taking this time to sit down and chat. If anyone has any questions, obviously your email. Yep. Info at TaliosWatches.com. Okay. And if you have any questions for the Grenado, obviously the Grenado at gmail.com. Everybody should know it by now. I get plenty of emails. I'm sure you do too. And yeah, we will chat to you soon and hope to have more interviews as they're available. Talk to you in two weeks with kind of a standard episode. Thanks so much for listening.