The Grey NATO – 304 – On Paper, On Wrist: The Christopher Ward C60 Trident Lumière
Published on Thu, 17 Oct 2024 06:00:00 -0400
Synopsis
In this episode of The Graynado podcast, hosts Jason Heaton and James Stacey discuss recent travel and events they've attended, including James' experience at the Audrain Newport Concours d'Elegance and driving an electric Porsche 911 conversion. They then do an "On Paper On Wrist" segment reviewing the Christopher Ward C60 Trident Lumiere watch, with James giving his hands-on impressions and Jason asking questions based on photos and specs. They discuss the watch's titanium case, impressive lume, and overall value proposition. The hosts also share some final notes, including an article about Soviet watches and a Rolex video about an expedition to install a weather station in the Peruvian Andes.
Links
Transcript
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| Jason Heaton | Hello and welcome to another episode of the Graynado, a loose discussion of travel, adventure, diving, driving gear, and most certainly watches. This is episode 304 and it's proudly brought to you by the always growing TGN supporter crew. We thank you all so much for your continued support. And if you'd like to support the show, please visit thegraynado.com for more details. My name is Jason Heaton, and I'm joined as ever by my friend and co-host, James Stacy, James, we were just remarking how it feels like it's been a really long time since we recorded. I mean, sitting at my desk here using zoom and garage band just feels so, so different after our couple of in-person sessions. |
| James Stacey | Yeah. It feels, it feels much more like a phone call or possibly, you know, communicating with somebody in outer space versus having you right in the living room here. |
| Unknown | Yeah. |
| James Stacey | You don't have to twist my arm to make more, more scenarios where we get to record face to face, but yeah, I guess there's a different energy, you know, I guess. |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah. |
| James Stacey | I think there's a different pace as well. Yeah. Yeah. No zoom between. |
| Jason Heaton | It felt a little rambly and whatever, but I think, uh, you know, we were, we were really nice and relaxed and I think that made a difference. So, all right. Well, anyway, here we are back in our usual spots. Uh, how's it going? What's new with you? You, you had some serious travel after I left Toronto. |
| James Stacey | Yeah. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm okay. I think I'm about as sick as I've been in the last couple of years. I've got some sort of a stomach bug in the last, uh, 24 hours or so. So if I seem a little fuzzy, uh, you have my apologies. Of course, I'll do my best to, keep the energy level up. You know, I guess since we last recorded, that would have been on a Sunday. Yeah. And then I was, uh, I was home for much of that week. And then on Friday I went to Newport for the Audrain Newport Concordia elegance. And that was great with, uh, long, uh, you know, hard to complain cars and some of the nicest watches in the world. And, and, you know, I was there with Blake and Troy and Matt Heranek and we had a really good time. That was a couple of very busy days. You know, had a lot of fun. The photo report is now live on Hodinkee, so you can check that out. Looked amazing. Yeah. While I was there, I'd actually got to drive a car that I think, I think anyone can find interesting. Whether you like it or not is totally up to you because it is a whole thing. But I drove the Sacrilege Motors Blackbird SR001. So it's a 92, so a 964, 911 Cabriolet that's been fully converted to electric. Amazing. Amazing. This is where it gets a little nuttier though. We are talking about like an $800,000 car. So that I'm going to put that right there. This is not our normal world, but I was offered to take it for a spin and I need some automotive stories for a hood inky thing we're doing later this month, early November. So I thought this would kind of fit in. So they take a 92, nine 11 and they basically upgrade everything that they can. And in the process also put in a batteries, and the motor from a Tesla Model S plaid. So it's a single motor. Yeah. But the interesting thing about this is one, there's no cutting. So it's original body panels. You can, you could return it back, uh, to, to, uh, I C E nine, six, four, nine 11. If you wanted to, I'm not sure why you would necessarily want to given the price, but you know, they don't cut anything that they've literally found a way to engineer all the pickup points and everything else. You know, the same suspension geometry, it's a much, much upgraded suspension. Uh, but What's very strange is you're driving an all-electric car, it's dead silent. They've gone to great lengths so there's no like screens in the cockpit. So the iconic sort of five gauges from Porsche have all been modified to display something for the electric powertrain. So current battery usage, that would be like your tachymeter. And it moves like a tach as you explore the 500 some odd horsepower that this thing has. And then you've got a speedo. battery temperatures and range in the five pod. And then it has a Porsche classic, uh, like MMI unit, which is the same one you would find in any nine, six, four that someone had upgraded. So nothing seems out of place really. Uh, if, if you walked by and looked at it, there's a few aesthetic modifications they've made, but it's like very light obviously has a different badge. It has like a modified sort of brake light array in the back that has their logo, which is the like schematic drawing for a battery. Yeah. It's on similar, it's on more tire, but it's on a similar tire set up to a standard nine, six, four. And what's, what's genuinely super weird is I've driven maybe two nine, six, fours in my time. One of them quite like for quite some, it just feels the same. |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah. There's no like manual gearbox in this, right? |
| James Stacey | It's just a single, it's just, you have one little knob in the center. Yeah. That looks a bit like a manual, but you push it forward. If you want to go into drive, you push it to the center. If you want to go to neutral and you pull it back, if you want to go into reverse super easy. Wow. Wow. And the car had two modes, all of which, I mean, these cars, when you're talking about cars at this price point, they're highly customized. So any owner, I think they're doing 10 a year, any owner can basically have whatever they want. This is just one example, which was a black on black on black, 964. I would say that on the road until you noticed it wasn't making any noise, it just looks like somebody kind of updated a 964 with modern headlights and some stuff like that. It has two modes again, which these are all, all these modes, the regen, the, the braking, all of that can be adjusted, but they had this set up by the CEO who I was out in the car with this guy, Phil, we had a really nice time and the car just drives like a nine six four until you touch the throttle. And it's just, then it is just so inappropriately fast, but a very cool thing. There'll be more of a story. You can definitely check out the, um, their website on, on, uh, you can definitely check out the show notes and I'll put the link into the website. I just found it really kind of a fascinating thing because you could tell it was one of those things where these guys love Porsches like a lot. Yeah. Yeah. But they wanted something that was for this guy who had, you know, maybe this is like your 10th, your fifth Porsche, your 10th, you still want to go to cars and coffee. You still want to do whatever, but like, this is just, it was the least stressful sports car experience I've ever experienced. And then the moment that you want to pass somebody, you can click from chill to sport And sport gives you all the power. Yeah. No regen in the breaking and the rest of it. And then it's just like an absolute missile. And it's, they feel so much faster because they make no noise. Yeah. Yeah. You just go. Wow. So, wow. So yeah, that was a very fun thing to get a chance to drive around and a big shout out to sacrilege and to Longa for making the connection there. Phillip, the CEO was wearing a very cool Longa one. He's like a brand fan. And I think it's one of those things I'm happy that I know it exists and that somebody made it to such a high level. Like I genuinely believe you could absolutely enjoy this. You could have a really good time with this car on a great road, even without the engine noise, simply because the rest of the experience is still so dialed into something very familiar. |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah. I mean, first of all, I love the name. I mean, it's such a great name. If a car company didn't do it, I think some kind of a Like a Bamford or something like that would have to take that name for a series of watches. Yeah, for sure. Right. Yeah. Super cool. Yeah, that's great. And the photo report looked good. There was some amazing stuff. Those, those fifties Ferraris and, uh, that 1960 Cadillac was pretty wild and yeah, really cool. I'm glad the weather cooperated too. That's great. |
| James Stacey | whether it was borderline perfect, hotter than expected, which is always kind of nice. Uh, you know, the breakers, which is where they do the show on Sunday is like, you know, an old gilded age mansion. Yeah. And it's just like, it's just an absolutely incredible place to put a bunch of cars. Yeah. So the photos turned out nicely and I, you know, I always like, uh, and maybe this is too inside baseball, but I really like when you shoot a photo report for a whole day, like, like if you go through my photo report for, um, like car week with Rolex, um, you get like a really interesting evolution of the light. Cause you might start before, like you might start pre-dawn or like in a blue hour and then you've got to shoot all day and you don't get to pick and choose the light evolves. And I kind of enjoy that. And you get some of that in this as well. You get a lot of really low angle light early in the morning and then it kind of transitions to this almost surreal glowing, you know, bright sort of light on in the afternoon. |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah. And then you went kind of straight from there to New York for an entirely different experience, the UBS House of Craft Week. How did that go? That seemed like kind of full on for a few days. |
| James Stacey | Yeah, it was a lot. I was home for about four or five hours. So came home, repacked, slept for a few hours and went back to the airport. And then, yeah, we had three public days of this event with UBS. So, you know, if you came to H10 back in 2018, similar idea to that. you know, experiences, a chance to see watches and, uh, hangouts and then kind of daily panels, discussions between people in the watch industry and, and that sort of thing. So we did three days of that. There's a ton of coverage of it on Hodinkee. If you want to learn more, I would also say, because people keep asking and I put it in every story that we've written so far, but every one of these talks was filmed and each one will come out one a week until we run out of them. So it's probably going to go into December. |
| Unknown | Oh, wow. |
| James Stacey | Um, with these and they're all, you know, 45 to 65-minute conversations. And I'm not sure there was a dud among them, but there's a couple really incredible ones. People are going to go nuts for the Jean-Claude Biver one. Wow. Wow. Ginny Wright, the new US CEO of AP was fascinating. We had just a really good time. I got to sit down with Alton Brown and Ben and talk all about watches and what his life's been like since 2018 and the rest of it. And |
| Jason Heaton | The photos look, it reminded me, made me nostalgic for H10 because that was such a, that was just such a fun few days, uh, in New York. And, and I was kind of wishing that I was out in New York for that, for the UBS week for the public stuff. Cause yeah, it looked, it looked fun. I think just that, that kind of gathering. I hope, uh, I hope Hodinkee does more of that in the future. Really cool. |
| James Stacey | Yeah, me too. I think, uh, I think it was quite successful. Uh, the folks from UBS and the other partners that we had for the event were super happy with it. And it seemed at least from the crowds that people were thrilled. I mean, I would love to do one where the space holds more like 150 to 200 people. Um, you know, this one, we kind of topped out with standing room around 75, which was nice. And, and, you know, they were all full. Obviously some of them had mostly standing room, that sort of thing. Yeah. Um, and then, so after those three days, then after that we had these kind of two private days of kind of experiences for some UBS clients. And so that include a couple more talks and a chance to, you know, go to long or AP and, and, you know, have a special presentation and that kind of thing. And then, uh, Friday I came home and basically just crashed. Yeah. Uh, I got out of bed like dinnertime on Saturday. Yeah. And then didn't, you know, it was Thanksgiving this weekend here in Canada. So we went to my folks on Sunday, which was really good. Came back from that last night and just felt kind of off and then, or night before last felt kind of off. And then yeah, last night I just, yeah, it seems, it seems like things are kind of catching up. I think, you know, literally might just need to rest for a little while. |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah. I mean, you've, you've been kind of going full on for weeks. I mean, even before Toronto, it was, you know, a lot of planning. And then of course that was a busy weekend. And then you went straight on to these other two things. I mean, I think sometimes the body just needs to, to recover. So hopefully you've got a, a few quiet weeks before your next, uh, your next trip. |
| James Stacey | Yeah, I guess we'll see on that front, but, um, yeah, hopefully, hopefully feeling a little better in the next couple of days. I've got some, you know, on camera work later in the week that I'm hoping I don't feel quite how I feel now when I do that, but, uh, it'll be all right. It was, it was a good, it was like a good 10 days. It was just, It felt like a month of work in 10 days. |
| Unknown | You know what I mean? |
| James Stacey | So yeah, I'm, I'm happy to, to come back here and just kind of hang out. And we've got my youngest birthday this coming weekend. So I'm going to try and not be online and the rest of it and just kind of enjoy, enjoy the kids and that kind of thing. But yeah, it's, it's been a very busy season, which I feel like I've probably said, you know, we'll have to go back and use Paul's bot. I probably say that every two episodes for the last two years. Um, so you don't have to listen to me, but it was fun. The UBS thing was good. I got to hang out with several TGN Slack members. So a big shout out to all you guys who came out and said hi and had a beer and all that kind of stuff and hung out for the chats. We appreciate it as always. |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah. Well, on my end, I mean, it's been about as opposite an experience for me as, as you can imagine, although it's been busy, um, this, this year has been an interesting one for me. I've had some big life changes and I'm, you know, it's not, not stuff I'm ready to talk about publicly, but you know, it's just been kind of an interesting, summer in a few months. And one thing that has been kind of an upside of everything has been I got a dog. So I adopted Ruby, well, two weeks ago as of this episode going live. And she's a rescue dog, sort of an Australian cattle dog healer mix. I'm not quite sure What else is in her, in her bloodstream? Um, I'm thinking it's some kind of a belt, Belgian Malinois or shepherd sort of thing. She has that look and incredible jumping ability. Does look like a Malinois for sure. Yeah. She's about 18 months old. So lots of energy. And I grew up with dogs when I was, you know, a kid, we had a poodle, we had an Irish setter, we had a golden retriever, but as an adult, I've never actually owned, you know, owned a dog. And that whole kind of experience was a bit intimidating when I was looking around for one to adopt. And I just got a lot of support from a lot of friends that, that have dogs and kind of encouragement and advice. A shout out to Zach and to Matt Ludvigson and to, you know, my buddy Ladrick and Nick, my buddy down the road here, big listener of TGN. It's, it's been great. And I, I, I've had such a wonderful experience and I'll just say that my, my Instagram feed is not only becoming very full of, of, you know, dog ads and dog products and training tips and all this sort of stuff that, that I get fed through an algorithm. Um, but also my own, my own photo stream has, has largely been dog related too. And I even started a little Instagram profile for, for Ruby. So, um, I'll try to, I'll try to keep it all there. If you're, if you just want to see watches and diving on my own feet, I'll, I'll try to do that. But, uh, Yeah, it's been, it's been great. And apologies in advance for any background noise. I gave her a kind of one of the, one of these food puzzles in the other room to hopefully keep her occupied while I'm recording, but she's, she's pretty good. She's pretty quiet in the house, but she does like her squeaky shark toy. So if you hear that or some jingling in the background, she's probably probably moving around here, but, uh, it's been, it's been fun. And, and it's just the, the energy of, of having a young dog and the enthusiasm for, you know, getting out first thing in the morning and all weather and chasing squirrels and, and, I'm just going for walks a couple of times a day. I'm getting my steps in. So yeah, it's been, it's been amazing and I'm looking forward to it. My, my life has changed quite a bit here. So it's, uh, it's been great. |
| James Stacey | That's awesome. Yeah. She looks like an absolute sweetheart. Can't wait to meet her. Yeah. Uh, we've got huge feedback on the possibility or, I mean, at this point, probably we shouldn't say it's a possibility. Yeah. Uh, but the opportunity to do a hangout of some sort in, in, uh, Minneapolis, St. Paul, Yeah. Uh, you know, I thought maybe we'd get 10 or 15 or 20, it's probably closer to 40 or 50 between email and slack. |
| Jason Heaton | And, and that's only after a week. Yeah. And I've gotten some, some feedback from, from local folks. One of, one of whom is, uh, actually we've had a couple of bits of feedback from people that are not only in the event organizing space, but also, um, uh, a friend, David, local friend here who, um, actually runs an event company and has a nice meeting space. He offered that. Um, so we'll, you know, these are all things we'll look into. And I know we talked about November. I think that might be a bit optimistic. I think we might want to look a little further out so people can plan. And some folks were talking about even flying in for it. So, um, let's, uh, let's, let's, uh, let's cook something up good. And, you know, our buddy, Mike Pearson offered to kind of come and help out with it. So, I mean, this, this could be a big deal. This could be really fun. And I definitely think we should, we should go ahead with it. |
| James Stacey | I agree. When I said November, I thought it might be, yeah, like a 10 or 15, 20 person local hangout. And then when we mentioned it and people started talking about, you know, doing some sort of an activity together and then hitting a brewery or something like that, then I was like, ah, well, you know, what's the best time of year, what can we make happen? So maybe we do something a little lighter and it could be late November or very early December, something like that. Or, or, you know, maybe we wait until the spring and do something bigger. Maybe we do both. I got some airline miles burning a hole in my pocket. |
| Jason Heaton | So why not? Yeah. And given how quick the trip was for me to go to and from Toronto and how relatively easy it all was, it's, it really is an easy trip. We really should do it more often. So I agree. Yeah. One of us should have gotten a pilot's license at some point. You could have easily, uh, you know, just been, been doing weekly episodes, just flying back and forth. |
| James Stacey | We're trying to be ecologically sound in our thinking here by using Zoom, but I agree. Yeah, I think it's something that once we figure out a few of the points, we'll try and give people more than a month to be able to plan their travel. I don't think it's super fair for a tiny hangout that's local, who cares? Like what we've done in New Hope. I think those can be kind of off the cuff and just go down how they worked out. You know, those, that's 20, 25 people maybe. Right. And mostly local. Um, but I think for something like this with just given the response, which I didn't really expect people to say like, Oh, I'm in Tucson. Yeah. Would, would be fine to fly up. Yeah. I just need enough of a heads up. All right. Well that kind of changes the math. Cause that's a fair request. So we'll, we'll go, we'll go that direction. Right. But stay tuned next couple of episodes. We should have some clarity and we'll probably make a little group on, um, on Slack. So if you're listening and might want to be involved in that, uh, keep an eye out on Slack. We'll probably, uh, see about, you know, just a way to keep everybody on the same page as far as, um, information. |
| Jason Heaton | All right. Well, let's, uh, let's move on. Let's, let's get into some risk check before we dive into the main topic here. What are you, uh, what are you wearing? |
| James Stacey | I am wearing, uh, kind of in within the theme of what we'll be talking about on today's show. I decided to go with a different titanium dive watch that of course I love, and that's my Pelagos 39. So I will switch to the show's topic watch shortly. Uh, but at the moment I've been wearing, since I got home, I've been wearing the 39 on the Zulu alpha straps, commando strap, which they made with watches of espionage. Oh yeah. So, uh, those guys sent, uh, me and you, uh, one of these straps and it's sort of a cross between like an Erica's And like a flight belt, I guess. Yeah. Uh, it's quite a cool thing. You genuinely will have to develop a little bit of muscle memory in your thumb and fingertips to use the buckle. |
| Jason Heaton | Definitely. |
| James Stacey | Uh, and, and if I'm honest, I have gotten to the point where I don't take, I don't open the buckle to take it on and off. I just use the elastic and pull it over my, pull it over my knuckles. Yeah. Uh, but I really like this strap. I'm not normally one for a strap with any color. Uh, this is sort of a greenish gray is how we describe the color of the strap. And then it has a very, a single channel stitched yellow stripe down the center. Um, but for whatever reason, I figured I would put it on, they were kind enough to send it. So I put it on and then after a few minutes, I really started to just kind of like the small detail of the additional color. |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's a bit more, um, you know, I don't know if this comes through in the photos that, that have been posted of these, but, um, it's a more muted, kind of a more faded, green, gray, and that yellow stripe than you get on like an Erica's or some of these others. And I, I like that aspect. And I love the weave. It's a, it's a kind of a finer weave than you get on the, on the Erica's. I think the, the buckle is a bit of the more of a polarizing aspect of this strap. I think it's, I find, I don't really like fiddly buckles and, and like you, I just, I don't bother with it. I mean, it's just too fiddly to like take on and off. So I just pull it off and on with the elastic like you do. And it's also shiny and black. Which, you know, I understand kind of from the backstory of this that it's what was specced by the Commando Hubert that kind of contributed to the design with Zulu Alpha. So, you know, you do you. But, you know, I think I can't wait for that to get a bit patinaed and scraped up a bit because that shiny black is sort of a weird contrast with like a titanium watch or something. But other than that, I think it's a great strap. |
| James Stacey | Absolutely. Uh, I enjoy it. It's been good. I'm now switching to the watch and our main topic, but what have you got on for today's episode? |
| Jason Heaton | So the weather, you know, it's turned quite chilly here. Um, it's definitely not, uh, you know, kind of that summery dive watch sort of feel at least here, or kind of in my mind. And I've been pulling on sweaters and building fires and stuff. And for some reason that always calls out for like, like a vintage watch on a bund strap. And so, No better one in my collection, at least, than the old Breitling Navitimer. And I pulled that out and wound it up the other day. I hadn't worn it in months and I still have it on, you know, the now discontinued heat and bun strap that the Hodinkee shop was selling. And it's just so good. I mean, I often forget how amazing this watch is, just the details of it. Sometimes I just find myself, you know, just sort of gazing at the dial. That's sort of the light play off the the guilt on the, on the dial. And, um, yeah, it's, it's just a, just such a great watch to wear. So I've, I've been a little hesitant to wear it. Like, you know, I'm out, you know, walking Ruby now and, and kind of moving around the yard, kind of doing a little yard cleanup. And suddenly I looked down and I realized I'm wearing this 70 plus year old watch, you know, with zero water resistance. And I'm like, Oh, maybe I should take this off and put something a little more suitable on like the old iron man that you gave me. But, So far, so good. It's been great. I'm enjoying wearing it. |
| James Stacey | Well, that sounds great. And a great watch for sure. I'm glad you're enjoying it. I've, I say, just wear it on, on all of your walks. It's, it could be your Ruby watch, I suppose. And then as far as the main topic goes, I think it's been a little while since we did an on paper on wrist and looking at the transcripts, it looks like it might even have been 210 was the last time that we did it. So nearly a hundred episodes. Yeah. Realized we had a watch that both of us have experienced in some way, certainly through the internet. |
| Unknown | Mm. |
| James Stacey | And I mean, I don't know why I'm bearing the lead. It is in the title. Today we're going to be doing an on paper on wrist for the recent Christopher Ward C60 Trident Lumiere. And I have the watch. Mike Pearson sent me one a little while ago. And since I am literal months behind on actually writing hands-on stories for Hodinkee, I figured I would get to this while it's still, you know, fresh in people's minds and we could do a little on paper on wrist. So for those of you who might be new since 210, on paper on wrist is we were stealing a concept from a movie podcast. I listened to like a decade ago where one guy saw the movie and the other guy only saw the trailer and the poster and watched interviews, but never actually saw the whole film. And so we kind of flipped that where in this case, Jason hasn't, I mean, I'm sure you saw this watch in person to some extent at the Toronto time piece show, but you haven't spent any material time with the watch. And I have, and we just kind of go back and forth and chat about, what the watch is like, what we discovered, what the specs are like, all that kind of thing. So this is the Christopher Ward C60 Trident Lumiere on paper on wrist. |
| Jason Heaton | This is a fun concept because it's kind of our version of sort of a watch review. You know, I mean, we're both come from a background of writing watch reviews and this is just sort of a fun sort of audio version of that. And I get to question you about, you know, aspects of it and, and that sort of thing. And I'm really happy that we're taking this one on because, um, I guess, you know, before we dive into the watch itself, like, How have your impressions of Christopher Ward as a brand changed over the past year, maybe? |
| James Stacey | You know, there's probably two ways that you and I kind of interface with a brand or trying to decide if we're interested in a brand. And like part of it's just personal interest. And that could be like, you know, all the watches that are, that are kind of common to enthusiasts that we might all kind of own something from a Seiko or a Citizen or maybe a Tudor or, you know, Hallios or Marathon or whatever. And then on the other side, there's kind of brands that, come to you from people saying like, what do you think of this? What do you think of this? What like, and there's no more, what do you think of in my life? Then what do you think of this Christopher Ward? Yeah. Yeah. And I think in the past and, and look, I'm, I'm not saying that I apologize or that I feel wrong or like my opinion is really changed. I think you and I have been kind of dubious about the name and the branding and all that kind of stuff and that it can feel kind of generic. Yeah. You know, I want to be clear if you're starting a watch brand today and you want to take any advice from me, don't make it a brand. That's just some person's whole name. Mm. We like Elliott Brown. We like Christopher Ward. But there's a lot of these out here. And I think that's one of the things that this brand, Christopher Ward, they seem very savvy. And I think they've understood that to a certain extent. And that's why now they largely run under more of an icon than the name itself on their watches. And I think this is the sort of logical progression of a brand. You refine and find your space and then refine again and find your space. and keep doing that. And I think that's, that's what they've been working on. And, and my experience now after having one in for a little while is this is absolutely, if you like modern watches properly, capital M modern watches, this is a brand that should be on your radar. |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. And I think, you know, let's, let's not, uh, let's not hide the fact that, that our old buddy, Mike Pearson, um, well known to the audience here. Um, obviously he's the, the North American brand director for Christopher Ward and I, I've got to hand it to him. Like, Like, as you said, Christopher Ward has made some big strides. They've kind of done a bit with their branding. Um, the watches are great, but ones that I haven't paid particular attention to, but just, you know, all credit to Mike for kind of raising awareness. And I think his enthusiasm has made me look a little harder at the brand. And I'm happy for that because it is a brand that I didn't pay much attention to in the past. So I guess with that out of the way, um, tell, tell us a little bit about this watch. Yeah. |
| James Stacey | Yeah. So the C60 Trident is the brand's core dive watch. I believe, Mike, I apologize if I misread that. It seems like it is. It's a 300 meter dive watch. What you wouldn't understand about this watch from the photos is the case shape. So we'll get to that in a moment, but keep that in mind as we go through the specs. So to be clear, the pricing is 2390 on a bracelet. So, you know, well under Tudor, but over Seiko, right? That's, you know, there, I think this is also, an absolute battleground price point, two to $3,000 right now. Like Longines is kind of edging above that in a lot of scenarios and Seiko is still hiding below it or operating below it as a citizen. But I think we're starting to see more and more brands that are really finding just what you can make if you're able to charge this much money. And of course, like CW has a whole transparency about their pricing. They have a fantastic warranty, all that kind of stuff. So I think if you wanted to try I mean, there was a time when we could have called Christopher Ward like a micro brand, but that's, that's just not accurate anymore. |
| Unknown | Right. |
| James Stacey | This, this is closer to like a, even like big, I assume they're bigger than like CWC and that kind of thing. Certainly it feels like they are in terms of production. |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah. So I'll chime in here because I actually heard something recently that, um, you know, Braymont used to be kind of considered the largest producer of watches in the UK, but I actually heard somewhere, I might've even been from Mike France himself on an interview that, that Christopher Ward is the, the largest of the, of the British watch brands, which, which was surprising to me, but also not surprising. Cause I just see them everywhere now. |
| James Stacey | Yeah. And I think it's interesting to bring up Bremont and, you know, leaving aside the brand's most recent evolution. So if we go pre 2024 Bremont, I think what made them special, especially to you guys like you and I, um, is they, the product felt very premium, but it also had a very specific aesthetic that kind of worked across almost all the watches. Right. But as far as the Seed 60 Lumiere goes, like I said, $2,390 USD. That's on a titanium bracelet. So case and bracelet are grade 2 titanium, which they have managed to polish quite nicely. So kudos on that. So they call the whole case shape and the rest of it a light catcher, which is like a trademark, I guess. It's a very nicely sized, easy wearing watch. And I think in a moment when I read the measurements, you'll know why I think that. So it's, uh, and I'm going to quote what I measured with my caliper as it is slightly different than what they have on the website. So that could be where I'm placing the caliper. It could be an inclusion of the crystal versus not that sort of thing. So I was getting 11.2 millimeters thick. They're claiming 10.85. Uh, I'm okay with that difference. I assume that's the difference in the crystal, uh, which ever so slightly lifts beyond the bezel, just literally ever so slightly. And then, uh, 41 millimeter at the bezel, 41 seven at the case, but I couldn't get a perfect measurement on that because there's a little crown guard that kind of gets in the way of getting a direct line across either vector and then a lug to lug of 48 one. Uh, so I'm, I'm getting slightly larger measurements. Like I'm, we're talking about decimals of a, of a millimeter, but slightly larger measurements that are on the site. But what you'll get is essentially those are the very similar sizing to a two, two, five, four. Oh yeah. |
| Unknown | Yeah. |
| James Stacey | which is a great watch that we've talked about for years. Um, it's, it's thin. I think this is a great example of just how sweet 4041 can be because you get a great big dial, kind of a thinner bezel on a watch like this. And then the case, and I really, you know, this it's marketing talk, but this light catcher case or whatever this, it is actually sculpted. Like the case is rounded for your wrist. Yeah. And the way that it sits on my wrist is so different than the Pelagos, for example, which I just took off. or something like the Elliott Brown, which is similar in width, right? The Beachmaster. And this just feels so much more modern because of the way that once I sized the bracelet, it just fit. It fits way better than any vintage-inspired watch I've come across because of the shape of the case. And the thinness is going to help. The fairly short lugs is going to help. where my attention shifted to this watch specifically, which is offered in kind of a gray, black or a blue or an orange dial is the loom. And that's where we get the name Lumiere. So the hands and markers use a mix of either SLN X one or global light XP ceramic loom. And they're just, I mean the marker, it looks like the markers on the hands are just made out of loom. And I mean, to be fair, I think the markers are like milled blocks of loom, similar to what you would see on Vertex. Yeah. And it just glows so well. And the skeletonized style of the hands and like the 12 o'clock marker and even the Christopher Ward logo, the way that they've kind of rendered that in such a three-dimensional element when the watch is still so thin for a 300 meter dive watch. Yeah. It's really, really impressive. I think you very quickly go, Oh, this is why it's 2,400 and not 1,400. Sure. Yeah. The titanium, the thin, the extreme dial, the loom is ludicrous. Like almost like it makes me laugh like a little kid. It's so bright and it lasts for so long. Beyond that, it's 22 millimeter lug. So it doesn't have the same, I wouldn't say proportionally. It's it, that's where you start to deviate away from the older Omega stuff, which had the more narrow 20 millimeter lug. I think on the bracelet, the lug width doesn't matter, but I haven't tried this yet on a strap. The bracelet is quick release, which is very nice. It also uses single sided screws. which is very, very nice. Thank you very much for that, Christopher Ward. And then you get a push-button fold-over clasp with an interior push-button extension. Nice. This is what you get with a brand like Christopher Ward, as I'm learning, is they just check all the boxes. They know what enthusiasts want to buy. Yeah. Yeah. And so you get quick release on the bracelet, so you want to drop it on a NATO, no trouble. You can do that immediately. But if you also just want to have the sort of system that's like T-fit, I guess, but not really because this has a little button. And it's a ratchet, very easy to use, very comfortable. Um, and it doesn't, it's on the interior of the buckle. So you don't end up with a button or anything on the outside. Yeah. Um, which I don't mind the idea that you have to take it off and adjust it a little bit. I like the ones like on the Halleys Universa, you can like hit the button with one of the knuckles on your finger while squeezing the bracelet and it squeezes in. Yeah. That's kind of clever, but not necessary. Not like it's not a deal breaker to have it one way or another. You also get an HEV on this watch, totally unnecessary, but I think it does speak to a certain level of execution. Yeah. You know, you and I are long on record that HEVs are quite silly. Um, but this one is very nicely iterated. It's an auto, so you don't have another crown. I just think it's like a very successful, again, you have to be in the market for a modern watch. |
| Unknown | Yeah. |
| James Stacey | Yeah. Um, even something like the Tudor, which I routinely call modern, one of my favorite modern dive watches, the Tudor has a little bit of throwback, right? We've got the snowflake hands. and maybe some of the case profiling and that sort of thing is meant to harken back to Oysters and 9401s and that sort of stuff. But with the CRISPR reward, there's like a little piece of this that makes me think of something like Ming or Ichipod. There's this clean, design-driven thing that kind of works. And I think that crossed with the hilarious loom and the very minimal text on the dial, like really the only text you're going to actually read, it just says chronometer. which I think is unnecessary, but it is something to be proud of at any price point these days. Yeah. Not any, but any reasonable price point these days. And I think with this one, they use an SW 300 dash one. So a Salida movement, but it's COSC certified it's 56 hours of power reserve and it runs, uh, either between negative four to plus six. So again, that's COSC, which is really nice to have. And I, and I do think if you're spending this kind of money, you should have, a fairly strong feeling about how well the watch will keep time, and even more so from a brand where it's largely an online experience. Again, it's like I said, they're good at checking boxes. They know that maybe your concern might be timekeeping and warranty, and they've got both of those covered. And maybe they know that you want a titanium bracelet, but it has to be quick release and with micro adjust and single-sided screws. And they know you want a movement with a good power reserve, but this one's also COSC, and you get that kind of stuff. I like it. I'm actually like it is one thing. I'm actually just flat out impressed by the watch. |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah, I was too when I, when I handled it and, and when I'm looking at the photos, which I, I kind of can't stop scrolling through their gallery, especially the real closeups of the, that textured dial, which dial color do you have? Do you have the blue or do you have the gray? |
| James Stacey | I have the gray black, which hides the texture the most out of the three. Okay. But it has this sort of Teflon. Hmm. Yeah. |
| Unknown | Yeah. |
| James Stacey | Like it's not, it's not quite dumb. like the texture on these dials. It's not, it's definitely not flat. Yeah. It has something that, yeah, in my mind it looks a bit like powder coated metal or Teflon. |
| Unknown | Right, right, right. |
| Jason Heaton | It's very cool. I think also like unless the aesthetics of it don't appeal to you, this is kind of a really compelling watch on paper or even obviously in hand. But you get this, like all these boxes ticked, you know, the chronometer, the comfortable, uh, case shape, the titanium material, um, the incredible loom and the chronometer movement. And, and I think that is where, you know, Christopher Ward is, is like starting to win these days. And, and I think it's, it is an impressive offering. And I think when I handled it, what I was struck by, you know, the loom is kind of the calling card of this one, obviously given the, even the name of it, but when I put it on and kind of looked at it, it is that the case finishing and the thinness of it and the comfort of it, that that I was struck by. And I feel like this is a mix of it. I think your, your analogy to a two, two, five, four is good because I feel like this is a, it's, it straddles that line between tool watch and dress diver. Um, I think it, it, the case and the finishing and the, those kinds of polished bevels on titanium, which is no small feat is impressive. And it has this sort of dressier look to it, but then you get this chunky blocky loom. that is more playful and more sporty and more casual. And, and I liked that interplay between the two. Um, it's, it's really quite a piece. And, you know, in contrast to that, I have the, the Christopher Ward super compressor that I've been playing with for a couple of months. And I was also impressed by that. I was impressed by the case, et cetera. It's a much lower price point than this one. And I think, um, you know, this one, it's just sort of, this is their elevated, they're, they're calling this kind of their top of the line dive watch and rightly so. Yeah. Yeah. |
| James Stacey | Well, look, grade two titanium, you know, is, is not inexpensive. It usually comes with some sort of a premium. Think of the premium over, uh, between a Black Bay 58 and a 30, uh, Pelagos 39. Yeah. I think you can get a great titanium watch from citizen for well under a thousand dollars. But I think that what Christopher Ward is offering here between the mechanical movement and the, I think a lot of it is in the execution, which, which is like, It's difficult enough to talk about the execution in a photo based story. It's also something else entirely when it comes to a podcast. |
| Unknown | Yeah. |
| James Stacey | Yeah. But the absolute truth is I just like, I think they've made a watch that feels like it hits that price point rather than they made a watch that costs more than the next one. And they just went up, up a run in the price point. Like sometimes it just feels like, you know, you, you kind of make it up as you go or as far as pricing. And You know, I don't think titanium is the end all or end all of anything, but I do think as soon as you're into titanium with a bracelet and the bracelet checks all these boxes, as we've talked about, I think that's what you get into for the price. That said, I, you know, I think maybe there's a chance they do a Lumiere in the future with a steel case and you'd see a lower price point. You know, I think that the titanium and the lume all kind of come together to make something that feels distinct from other C60s that I've come across. There's like little touches that I don't, that I don't find that common. I'll let you hear the, the bezel. It's like a very, very clicky, but very tight and even kind of 120 click. But the interesting thing is there's a little chapter ring around the outside of the crystal and you will need to look at the photos. on Christopher Ward's site to even notice this. It's like a little tiny metal ring that sits outside the crystal that has, you know, cardinal markings for every five minute position. And you would think that's just part of the bezel insert, but there's a weird complexity happening here where the bezel spins around that ring. So you never lose the reference point of the five minute marker. And I think for a bezel that's not fully graduated or even partially graduated, it just has five minute markings. I think that it's a little bit clever to have this thing where you never really lose track of how the bezel is relating to the home markers, the five minute markers that create the way we read time. I think that's quite clever. And the first time that you spin the bezel and that little ring doesn't move, that alone feels like, oh, this is different. This is different than the last 25 dive watches I've put on my wrist and turned the bezel. And is that an important differentiation? No, not at all. Is it kind of interesting and like something that tickled my brain in a certain way? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah. So two, two things, um, kind of close up my thoughts on this and I, or I guess the more questions, um, of the three dial colors that they're offering, you have the kind of gray, black, um, what do you feel, what are you feeling about the orange and the blue? I, I particularly like the blue. I think I would, I would love to wear the blue. Um, I'm not usually an orange dial person, but, I think it kind of works on this. I think it looks really good with that texture and those big chunky, uh, loomed markers. But where, where do you come down on the, on the colors of this? |
| James Stacey | Yeah. I mean, like, I think there's a, there's a, there's a certain basicness in me where I just like the gray because of the titanium. Yeah. It just, it all feels like kind of monolithic altogether. It has a little bit of like that IWC GST feel. Yeah. But I think if with a different bezel, the orange would be really cool. And I still think orange and titanium, the kind of muted but warm tone of the titanium and then the brightness of the orange is great. And then the blue, I don't think you can fault it simply because it brings a whole different sort of measure of the brightness of the gradient from the center of the dial to the outer is much more noticeable in the blue than it is on the gray. And to be honest, I'm not entirely sure from the photos if the orange has a gradient. I don't believe, at least from the photos, I don't believe the orange has a gradient, but the blue seems to have quite a pronounced gradient where it's a brighter color that gets darker at the edges, kind of like a Moser. |
| Unknown | Yeah. |
| James Stacey | And I think that works really well. I would go gray. I just, I think that in some ways as a sort of alternative to something like a Pelagos 39 or even one of the Longines divers in titanium, I think that this gives you an entirely different aesthetic. I would say that there's things about the Pelagos that I prefer, the bezel for one, I love a 60 click, but they're both loomed, they both do their job very well. And yeah, I think this watch feels very mature, despite coming from a fairly young brand. And I think that they've achieved something with the C60 where it can exist at a few different price points and not feel out of place. |
| Jason Heaton | And my second point is I can't wait to see what you come up with for kind of strap options. Did it come with the rubber strap? I'm seeing on the website, the rubber strap, and it doesn't look like my favorite style of rubber strap. Did they send that with it? Or are you going to just try some of your own? |
| James Stacey | I'm not sure if the rubber strap is in the box. I didn't dig that deep. I just kind of, I got excited and took it out and sized it and put it on. Yeah. And I really have become a bracelet guy when it comes to titanium watches. Yeah. And especially this one, the comfort is insane. Yeah. It's just, Like I said, at the top, the way that the case kind of wraps around your wrist, I have a seven inch wrist, fairly like oblong shaped. If you looked at it in, in, you know, a slice. Yeah. Um, so I think if you have that kind of flat top flat bottom and you're, it's the right size, it's just a remarkably comfortable thing and it doesn't move around. It doesn't flop at all. It's very easy to get the sizing just right between removing the links and then having the micro adjust in the class. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like I said, I'm, I'm pretty impressed with it. Uh, you know, I, I would love for more people to get a chance to see these things. So I, you know, obviously this is the value of Toronto timepiece shows and windups. And I believe, um, unless I miss something, I believe they're opening like Christopher will have some sort of a showroom in Dallas. |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah. I think that just opened. |
| James Stacey | Does that sound right? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So, I mean, that gives you a chance and let's be clear, Dallas is one of those places you might just fly through Dallas and have a five hour layover and you could go check it out. And obviously this is a brand that's largely designed for e-com. Yeah. So very easy to buy on their website. They have a great return policy, all that kind of stuff. And at a certain point, that sounds like an ad, but you guys have been asking to be clear. Mike doesn't know we're talking about this. Nobody's, this is, we just felt like doing this and I'm enjoying the watch. So we wanted to talk about it, but we've had so many requests over the last few years to dig deeper into CW. And so I wanted to try and get holistic, but I also wanted to kind of start with a watch that felt like one I would want. Yeah. And this is that one for me. Yeah. |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah. Well, this was fun. |
| James Stacey | I, yeah, I enjoy these. That's on paper on wrist for the Christopher Ward C60 Trident Lumiere and a super fun on that. Congrats to Christopher Ward for, I think making one of the more kind of interesting, truly modern feeling dive watches for this year. |
| Unknown | Yeah. |
| James Stacey | I like the price point. I love, I mean, I just, I'm obsessed with the loom. It's hilarious. It's so bright. Even the bezel, it's all great. Um, and I should, uh, theoretically sometime before 2027 have a story on hood Inky, uh, for this, uh, which will include things like a loom shots and the rest of it. But, um, they have a lot of great photography on their website to, to tide you over until that's ready. Yeah. |
| Unknown | Nice. |
| Jason Heaton | Cool. How about some final notes? Yeah, let's do it. I, um, I'll start, uh, with a, an interesting story that my friend Chris sent me, um, that he found on pocket and I believe it is, uh, I believe it was pulled from a publication called collectors weekly. Um, but we'll throw the pocket, uh, link in the show notes. Um, it's, it's an article called mechanical movements of the cold war, how the Soviets revolutionized wristwatches. And, uh, it was written by a gentleman named Hunter Oatman Stanford, a great name by the way. Um, and it, it digs deep in an area that, you know, we'd certainly don't talk about much that, and also an area that I just don't have much exposure to. And that is, uh, Soviet wristwatches. I know a lot of people out there, um, are interested in kind of Russian or, or, you know, old cold war, Eastern block, uh, time pieces. I remember when I was in Dresden years ago and my first visit to, to Lange, I stopped in at like a used, like a little antique shop and, and I bought an old glass who to kind of East German watch from, from before the wall came down and kind of piqued my interest a little bit, but you know, I've never really gotten much into the pull yachts or the raketas and, uh, some of those old Russian pieces, but this article really digs deep into it. And, and it is interesting because I hadn't realized that the Soviets actually bought out, um, the tooling and kind of the, the rights to the movement design, et cetera, from a couple of defunct American watch companies, um, you know, way back in kind of the middle of the century and, and moved everything over to the Soviet union, including having these American watchmakers come over and train Russian watchmakers and, It was an aspect of the story that I found quite fascinating. I think it's a fairly long article. It's kind of an interview actually with Oatman Stanford's brother, who is the collector of these pieces and kind of the expert. And the first half of the article, I think you could skim, you know, especially listeners of TGN or watch enthusiasts in general, because it kind of goes through the basics of why a mechanical watch is more interesting than a quartz, et cetera. I found that, you know, a bit rote. Um, but, but I think once you kind of dig into the second half of it, when it starts talking about how the Soviets built up this industry and we're making some pretty, pretty nice innovative watches, uh, it was quite surprising to me because I always associate a lot of the Russian watches. And I think, I think you and I have both had, and you might still have like one of these old Soviet watches that feel very cheap and very flimsy. And, um, it, this kind of piqued my interest in, in finding something older and a little bit more high quality. So, Yeah. Interesting article. |
| James Stacey | Yeah. I'm normally I could, you know, very quickly skim this. I opened this this morning when I went into the notes, I was like, Oh no, this is not a skim. This is, this is the start of someone's book. Yeah. Right. But very cool. I like, and the photos are very clean and useful and all that kind of stuff. There's definitely a lot to dig in here. I've had a few, uh, Russian watches. I really wish I had a, uh, which maybe I'm saying that correctly, maybe not. alarm watch, which I really liked. And just in the process of deciding I wanted something else, I sold it. I probably sold it for $60, and I should have just kept it. It was one of the only mechanical alarm watches I've ever had. And then I've owned several Vostoks, Scuba Dudes, and Krakens, and all that kind of stuff. But those ones I buy and I'm obsessed with for a little while, and then I give them to somebody, and I think that's perfect. Yeah. But yeah, definitely cool stuff. And what looks like a great story. So I would say this is a good one for your, uh, you know, Saturday morning coffee, uh, when you're taking a little break or maybe the way you close out a long day, uh, dig into some, some cool Russian watches. All right. What do you have? So mine this week, uh, you guys know it's not new, but you've both for TGN and even for stuff I do in Houdinki, I really love the media that Rolex puts out into the world about things they do that aren't watches. I always have this same complaint, which is their films are too short. Usually they're one or two minutes long. And, uh, I don't know. I know that I was reading something the other day that based on your age, YouTube can tell you how long you like to watch a YouTube video. Oh, wow. Yeah. And like younger, younger people it's under five minutes is kind of keyed. I I'm still at the point where like, man, James Pumphrey left Dona. media. I think I've talked to you about this and he started another thing and now every two weeks he puts out like almost an hour long video that's like a discussion of a brand. They did Carhartt. It's incredible. It'll be a future show note. Actually, you know what? We can make a part of this show note. I'll put his Carhartt video in there. So many things I didn't know about Carhartt, the history of American, you know, workwear, the rest of it. Awesome. He just did one on the GT3 RS. He did one on Stussy and I love these really deep, interesting dives and This one from Rolex is only 11 minutes long, which it feels like that's got to be in the zone where everybody can find 11 minutes. That's a coffee break, right? Yeah. Yeah. And it is the Rolex perpetual planet initiative expedition, Amazon, the trek to Austin got Ross and gate. And so the, the description, and this only came out just a couple of days ago on October 12th, follow along as 33 members of the Rolex and national geographic perpetual planet, Amazon expedition set out to summit Novato Austin gate. with a goal of installing the highest weather station in the tropical Andes, towering nearly 21,000 feet above sea level. Austin Gate is one of the tallest peaks in Peru and a primary source for the iconic Amazon River. Data from the weather station will help explorers better understand how climate change is affecting the glaciers, downstream communities, and the Amazon basin. With 180 meter, that's 600 feet, ice walls to climb, hidden crevasses to cross, and 60 bags of gear to carry to an extreme altitude, installing the station near the summit is no easy task. Just what does it take? Just what does it take to reach the top, discover more, et cetera, et cetera. So yeah, this is only, like I said, about 11 minutes. I genuinely believe it's worth checking out. It's a very cool story. I bring it up also as a platform to bring up just to highlight something I was thinking about, which is Rolex does so many things really well. It's kind of what they're good at, just being good at their world. I do think that we're missing we're missing a piece of the media side of it. I would love to see Rolex kind of take a lesson or turn an eye towards Red Bull and turn this sort of stuff into like a full on media house. I don't, I don't think it needs to be the same tone as Red Bull, but I think there's a lesson there. You were your huge brand and you could talk about just about anything. So what you talk about and how you do it is very important. Yeah. Don't get me wrong. I, you know, Red Bull, which is a drinks company being involved in, you know, probably maintaining and supporting most of the world's most extreme sports. I think that's kind of interesting. And in the same way, Rolex is just a watch company, but at the same time they have this huge philanthropic wing that I just don't think we know enough about. And it's not because it's, it's, um, they don't want to talk about it. It's because it's all chopped up into little pieces. Yeah. Yeah. And I think if you gave us a couple of personalities and turn the, turn these into more like, you know, feature, even semi feature sized docs, I think it would be great. |
| Unknown | Yeah. |
| Jason Heaton | I agree. I think, you know, Rolex has this reputation. Um, well among non-watch people is there's just this high luxury brand. Um, people talk about how they're kind of master marketers, et cetera. But I find a lot of this, this kind of thing, it's so subtle and kind of goes under the radar. And I want this stuff to be what people associate with Rolex, just because as an enthusiast and a fan of the brand, I'm like this, this to me is, is what I like about Rolex. It's not the, you know, diamond encrusted Datejust, et cetera, or, or, you know, It's like this stuff is so fascinating and they have such a great history of it that, um, it's nice for us to be able to highlight it certainly to our, our audience, but I'd love to see them kind of go a little broader with it. Like you said. |
| James Stacey | Yeah. I think that maybe they don't realize or, or they're not worried that maybe more, they don't worry about it versus not realize. But I think like literally stuff like this video is what maintains my love for my Explorer two. |
| Unknown | And I think it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, |
| James Stacey | because I can go back in and maybe you see somebody, I just watched a bunch of the, the final grand tour and Richard Hammond is wearing a 16, five 70 throughout Zimbabwe. And I just like that kind of stuff, like seeing it out there doing something like this. So you go like, ah, now like this makes more sense than like you said, maybe red carpet or what somebody is wearing to a tennis match. And like all of that's part of the meta of Rolex interest. So like you can't have one without the other, but I would love, more people to know about this kind of stuff. Yeah. Because I find it fascinating what they're doing with Perpetual Planet. |
| Jason Heaton | Well, that's a good one. I'm going to crack into that right after we log off here with a second cup of coffee for this morning. That's great. |
| James Stacey | I definitely need a second cup, man, for sure. All right. Well, hey, as always, thank you so much for listening. If you'd like to subscribe to the show notes, get in the comments for each episode, or consider supporting the show directly, maybe even grab yourself a new TGN signed NATO, or get access to the ever awesome Slack, please visit thegreatnado.com. And we leave you with this quote from Cicero who said, |