The Grey NATO – 272 – Dr. Rebecca Struthers and ‘Hands Of Time: A Watchmaker’s History'
Published on Thu, 15 Feb 2024 06:00:00 -0500
Synopsis
This episode features an interview with Dr. Rebecca Struthers, an English watchmaker, historian, author, engineer, and gemologist. She discusses her background, her PhD in horology, her work with her husband Craig as a watchmaker, and her recently published book "Hands of Time." They explore topics such as the history of watchmaking, the challenges of restoring and working on modern watches, the importance of preserving watchmaking skills, and the personal connections people form with watches. Dr. Struthers also talks about her upcoming children's book on horology and the potential impact of watchmaking being recognized as an intangible cultural heritage in the UK.
Links
Transcript
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| James Stacey | Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Graynado. It's a loose discussion of travel, adventure, diving, driving gear, and most certainly watches. This episode 272 and it's proudly brought to you by the always growing TGN supporter crew. We thank you all so much for your continued support. And if you're listening and would like to support the show, please visit thegraynado.com for more details. My name is James Stacy and I'm joined as ever by my friend and co host Jason Heaton. Jason, how you doing? |
| Jason Heaton | I'm doing pretty well. Yeah. We, uh, we're recording this bit, uh, just after a really lovely chat with our special guest today, which we'll get to in a bit. |
| James Stacey | But, um, yeah, pretty excited to, uh, to have that one. It's a, you know, you've had it in the works for a little while and it just went so well. Great book. Obviously everybody listening has seen the title. We have Rebecca Struthers on, uh, and she's written an excellent book, uh, just recently. And we had a really nice chat about watchmaking and, and kind of the future and past of studying and learning about watchmaking and that sort of thing, a very unique perspective that she offers and a treat to have her on the show. So we'll get to that in just a few minutes. But what else is new? We had a little bit of a Slack launch of a watch. You want to dig into that first? |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah, sure. Those of you that are subscribers and belong to our Slack community know this already. We actually were able to fortunately uh, announced this earlier than it actually went to the rest of the world, which was a really fun privilege for us. Uh, the launch of the citizen Aqua land at JP 2007 loom dial watch that, you know, I mean, if you've listened to the show for, for any length of time, you know, over the past, Oh, I don't know, year and a half, uh, both you and I have been talking up this watch quite a bit. We both love it. It's the, the PVD kind of, I don't know if you'd have called black. It's more of like a dark charcoal gray gun metal sort of thing. Yeah. With, uh, with the full loom dial in kind of the classic Aqualand form with the depth sensor. And, you know, for the longest time it wasn't available to purchase in North America. And so, you know, I got mine on, on eBay from, from Italy, I think. And, you know, it was just, it was kind of frustrating for those of us on this side of the pond to source these watches kind of from official channels. And, um, You know, our friends at citizen decided it's high time to open things up for sale here. And they did that, uh, in some collaboration with worn and wound and their windup shop. And so now that watch is indeed available for purchase on citizens website and through the windup watch shop. And we were able to kind of tell our crew early. And I think a bunch of people kind of jumped on that and it was just kind of an exciting thing to, to see happen. So, you know, go ahead and get one if you're, if you're keen for it. Yeah. Cool. Cool. Watch. |
| James Stacey | Yeah, yeah, exactly. If you've been waiting and wanted, you know, maybe a more recognizable outlet for somebody in the North American sense of the, you know, international internet buying kind of phase, then I think that gives you a good option for sure. So that was a fun one. You know, while we're on the topic of the Slack, I did want to throw something out there because we don't talk about it. And I'm now realizing that that's causing a bit of a communication issue when it comes to the Slack. I'm getting a lot of emails from people who have just recently signed up. So if you're on the Slack bear with me for like a minute here. But if you're signing up or you just recently signed up or you're planning to sign up, the invite link for the slack is not published online because it's a private platform in the email that you get for signing up for the supporter bundle, either $5 a month or $100 a year, which if you go to $100 a year, then that'll also include a link for you to order your strap and that kind of thing. But in that email is the link to get on the invite or to get But in that email, the main email you get from Substack for signing up to be a supporter, that includes the link for Slack. So that'll be the easiest way to get it. And if you sign up and you don't get that email in, let's call it an hour, but really it's email, it's probably minutes, then just check your junk mails, that kind of thing, and make sure that it's not just floating around in there. And of course, if you check that and you still can't find it, drop me an email, thegreatnadoatgmail.com. I can hand send you the link. But as some of you who are listening will know, if I'm traveling constantly, it can be very difficult to stay on top of that sort of email. So sometimes there's a little bit of a delay. So I did want to throw that out there. Well, we had a quick chance right at the top of the show just for just because we have had kind of a sizable influx of of signups recently, which is fantastic. And we love it. But we also want to make sure that everybody who's doing it to get on the slack or whatever gets what they are paying for. |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah, that's a good point. I think, you know, we don't, we don't do a lot of housekeeping, uh, typically at the start of episodes, but it is a kind of a necessary evil for us to kind of make a few announcements here. And while you're on the subject of that welcome email that, that new subscribers get do check that email for the link, uh, James, as you mentioned, uh, for getting your, your free TGN sign NATO, if you are indeed an annual subscriber. Um, and just to clarify those, uh, NATO straps are available free to first time $100 a year subscribers. So it's not an annual gift, so to speak, as you re up, although you can purchase additional straps through the supporter shop. So, um, just, just a few things to keep in mind and thought we'd make a couple of announcements at the, at the top of the show. |
| James Stacey | Totally. And, uh, moving on from that, uh, if, if I seem a little low energy or maybe even a little spiky, uh, you have my apologies. I got back from Aspen a couple of days ago and I woke up this morning and feel pretty ill. Rough. Ooh. Yeah. So not, uh, not necessarily at a hundred percent today. Uh, you know, I, I'm feeling a little on the kind of exhausted side. So after this, I think I'm going to go edit, um, the show, maybe the Q and a that we recorded last week. I'll do that first, but I'm going to do it in bed. So that's kind of the phase I'm in. I'm going to be sipping tea and, uh, and trying not to get too, trying not to be too surly or spaced out, uh, during this recording. Um, but ice race was an absolute blast, uh, in Aspen. I was out there from like Wednesday until Sunday. |
| Jason Heaton | Looked incredible. The story and the photos, um, just, just tremendous. I mean, I just, I just looking at the photos and kind of seeing your Instagram feed made me feel like you were totally in your element there and around some really cool people too. |
| James Stacey | Oh, totally. Yeah. The, the crew that they had assigned that they had kind of on site, both people who were, um, you know, buying tickets and coming to the event, people who were bringing cars and then also the other kind of press elements that, that had, you know, presumably gotten tickets. We're all fantastic. I got to connect with some old buddies I hadn't seen in a long time. Corey Richards was there. I had a really, really nice time. For several days, we hung out with Henry Catchpole. So cool. And his guy, Glenn, who was there with him as well. Really nice guys. We had dinner. The first night I got in, finally got to kind of, I don't know, put a bow on that relationship. We've traded DMs and text messages and emails. And Henry's been on the show. We're going to have him on again. soon. But Henry, I assume you're listening to this. You couldn't have been kinder and more generous. He was bringing me coffee in the morning, which was amazing. I was staying in sort of a different spot and he had a car. They let me use that car to hide my camera bag at times. It was really a nice thing and just a treat to meet someone who it feels like you kind of already knew and it's almost like you skip some of the first few steps in a friendship. So that was a real treat. I was out there with Ben. which was Rad and a couple of buddies from sort of the Houdinki world. I would say that you can get 90%, maybe even 95% of my feedback about the show from the story on Houdinki. It was like over 120 images. It actually took... I think it might have actually taken longer to load the story into the system than it did to edit the images and write the text. But it was... Thankfully, we had really good weather and great light. So there were these windows of time, basically around the same time every day, late morning where the light was just incredible, and I just did as much shooting as I could. I took that little video camera with me, the Insta360 Go 3, so I had some helmet cam footage and some time lapse and hyperlapse stuff that's on the Hodinkee Instagram. I'm still kind of dipping my toe into short form video or video in general. I haven't done it in years, but it turns out that between this camera and then it turns out that the The thing I subscribe to, like the package I subscribe to with Adobe includes something called Rush, which is like a mobile video editor. |
| Unknown | Oh, okay. |
| James Stacey | And once I figured that out and I watched a little YouTube video in the middle of the night in my hotel room in Aspen, I kind of got up to speed pretty quickly and was having like some fun finding music and making little edits, stuff that you used to need a whole computer for, you know, back in my days of making like hands-on reviews with videos for a blog to watch. So that was really great. I had a genuinely fantastic time. Had never been to Aspen before. Obviously, Jason, you and I have been to Vail together in the past. This is kind of like the same thing, but it's like they've taken it a step up. It's a little fancier. The one afternoon we left the show and went and hung out at the Lange Boutique for a little while. That gives you an idea of what's going on in Aspen. A really, really cool town, some great food, good company, and the event was incredible. you know, if I had a note, if I had one note for them, it would be like try and make some way for people who don't have the budget for the big tickets to come to it next year. And it's my understanding, at least, and this is, you know, maybe, maybe a little bit inside baseball, but it's my understanding that they had other programming that was on the docket that would have been ticketless or like more in the public sense in Aspen, and it just didn't work out with the local authorities and regulations and that sort of thing. So I am interested to see how the how the whole thing sort of evolves, whether they do it again in Aspen next year. And if so, if it's in the same place and how the program will evolve, but, but if I get the chance, the opportunity or whatever to go back, I would, I would be thrilled. I had a great time. |
| Jason Heaton | Well, and I even got to drive. I was just going to say, I was just going to, I was just going to say, I don't want to cut you off, but you, you finally got to take a lap in a, in a Meyers-Manks. Yeah. |
| James Stacey | I mean, I did in like a, like a really nice one. So Phillip who owns Meyers-Manks among other jobs and, and his guy Haga, connected me with this beautiful, like, bass boat, Glastron 70s, teal, high flake. It was just, this thing was so cool. And I really have just a distinct fondness for a vehicle that's just for fun. And, like, I don't know if you could be more just for fun than this. It works on the street. It works off-road. This one has, like, king shocks, a brand-new motor. This isn't a VW buggy. This is a Meyers-Maxx. Like, it's that top spec. And, man, I had such a good time. You know, rear engine, short wheelbase. There's a the kind of the first main corner segment is like a horseshoe with uphill and then downhill segment. So I spun that twice. It took me three. I had three laps. It took me three to figure out how to do that corner with any speed. But man, once once I kind of got a little bit of a feel for the speed of the steering rack and and some of the inputs, what a good time I would I would love to have something like that in my life. |
| Jason Heaton | Wow. Yeah. Yeah. It looked it looked amazing. I was I was smiling just just looking at it, especially given our Kind of Myers-Maggs just came up in a Q&A not long ago. And that was really fun to see. And you had a cool watch element that you're still holding on to. But let's hold off until Risk Check to chat about that in a little bit here. |
| James Stacey | Yeah, I can hang on to that for Risk Check for sure. But I do want to make sure I get a very concerted thank you out to Philip and to Hagup for letting me take the keys to that. And Ben was in the right seat with me. We had a good time spinning around on the snow. I didn't feel too bad. Patrick Long got it in, got in it after me, the factory Porsche driver and, you know, very successful race car driver, the guy who founded Lufka Kalt. Really nice guy. I got to chat with him one evening, but he got in it after me and spun out on that first same corner. So I didn't have to feel too, too bad. He didn't, granted, he didn't do it twice. He, you know, learned from his mistakes, but, uh, you know, Pobody's nerfect, as I like to say. And, uh, and yeah, so that it was, it was a great event. I had, I had an absolute blast. Uh, I'm tired as a dog as, as I'm recording this, but with, with good reason, I suppose. |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's great. Good times. Well, um, speaking of kind of winter fun, um, I had a visit yesterday from one of our listeners, uh, Eli, whose family is a, they just founded and own a company called Snow Trekker Tents, which is based over just across the border here in Wisconsin. And, uh, they've been doing that for, for a number of years, I believe since the nineties. And, uh, I had dropped him a line a while back about, you know, the opportunity maybe to try out one of their tents and he was kind enough to actually stop over and hand deliver, uh, his own personal kind of loaner tent, uh, at, at the house here yesterday. And, uh, kind of showed me the rope, so to speak, pardon the pun, um, on setup and use. And I think Kashani and I are going to take it out this weekend and and give it a go. So if you're not familiar with snow tracker tents, we'll put a link in the show notes, but it is a, a brand of what they call a hot tent, which is, you know, kind of a larger, I guess you call it kind of an expedition style wall tent with a small wood stove that, that you can put inside and run a stove pipe through a hole in the, in the canvas and, uh, and heat the inside. And so, um, it's, it's just a neat setup. It's, it's something I've wanted to do for many years. And I'm really excited and, and, you know, can't thank Eli enough for, uh, for lending that to me. And then he said, you know, keep it for a little while and he'll collect it at some point. But, uh, yeah, we're, we're probably going to take it out this weekend. Unfortunately, we've had such a wimpy winter here. Uh, and there's a little bit of snow predicted for tomorrow night. That'll probably melt by the weekend. So we'll see. But I, you know, just, just from, from kind of a photographic perspective, it would be really cool to have that, that tent set up with smoke, whispering out of the, out of the stack with a little bit of snow dusting on it, but we'll see. regardless, it should be a good time. |
| James Stacey | Absolutely. It sounds like a great time. I can't wait to hear, hear what it's like. You know, I had access to, uh, I assume something largely similar. I actually don't know the brand. So it doesn't, I don't, I don't remember a friend was bringing up to the cottage actually, uh, in February 17, two years ago. So almost exactly two years ago to when this episode will go out. and the wind at my cottage was so bad, we couldn't put... We just opted to use the cottage. Oh, sure. Rather than try and put this tent up, but they have what sounds like a very similar idea and get quite a bit of use out of it, especially in the early and very late seasons of the shoulder. So very late fall and early spring, suddenly you have this flexibility where you get to control the climate a little bit, at least inside the tent. So I think it's a great idea and I can't wait to see some pictures and and maybe, you know, hear about how it went with you and Gashanna using it. |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah, definitely. Full report next week if we do indeed go this weekend, or at least in the future. So, yeah, thanks again, Eli, and stay tuned. Fantastic. Let's jump into a quick risk check before we get in with this wonderful chat with Rebecca. As I mentioned, you have something on your wrist that you came home with from Aspen. Tell us about it. |
| James Stacey | Yeah, I borrowed Ben's Porsche Design Chronograph, the GP Ice Race 2023 edition. But I bought it off his wrist for a few photographs, and then we had planned to meet at the airport in Aspen the next day, and it just didn't work out. So now I've got it for a little while. How convenient. That's great. Yeah, exactly. That worked out just fine for me. And I've talked about my love of the Porsche Design Chronograph in the past. And obviously, my connection with the brand and with Ferdi and that kind of thing feeds into that to a certain extent. But I do think, especially within the perspective of the original, the 1972, which they very faithfully recreated a few years ago and then have iterated upon since then. I just think it's a great sports watch. It's a premium sports watch. You're in a price point kind of just below a Daytona. Call it around ten to eleven thousand dollars, maybe a little bit more for a special version. But I think these are really fascinating. I think they have a really cool history. There's obviously a great story and background behind the original model, its connection to F.A. Porsche, to the 911, to the 904, stuff like that. And then moving forward with IWC and then Eterna and then Porsche, bringing Porsche design entirely back in to the Porsche, you know, overall group and then, you know, funding the development and connections that would require, you know, proprietary movement and more additions and, you know, product that's tied specifically to cars and collectibles and things like that. So I mean, I'm going to enjoy wearing it and hanging out with it, even if today it'll probably be sitting in bed. |
| Jason Heaton | Is it the one on the long white Velcro strap? |
| James Stacey | Exactly. So it's... I don't have the Velcro strap, I have the black leather, it comes with both. Yeah. If you guys remember, if you go far enough back in TGN, I had this in 144 STGMT, and I hunted down a bracelet for it. It took some time. Yeah. Yeah. Because I didn't want the Zinn bracelet. I wanted one that looked more like some of the Orfina era bracelets. And I was able to find one and it was a real treat to have. So I think that would still be in my mode, depending on whether or not you could match the finish correctly. The Zinn being sort of brushed steel is a much more tractable sort of finish to go with a third party, like an entirely different bracelet manufacturer. But ultimately, I think if you, if I really was in the, in the mode for one of these, it would be an all black one. That's, that's how FA designed it. I think that's, those are kind of the pretty rad ones. |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah. Yeah. We were, we were talking before we recorded today and I was telling you that if we ever do a followup to our kind of watches, we're watching episode or kind of a short list of, I guess, watches that we're lusting after a little bit. This is, this is high on the list. I don't think I would spring for that price and I'd probably go for some, one of the kind of poor man's versions, you know, an old lejour or something like that, but something about that shape and that, kind of form factor that I just adore every time I see that watch. And what was the one they did recently with, um, they did kind of a campaign with the, the downhill skier. That was a more recent one. It was, it was a very adventure-y kind of themed one. I mean, just any version of that watch. I just absolutely adore. So that's really cool. |
| James Stacey | Yeah. Yeah. They're fun. It's been good. Uh, and I will presumably, uh, you know, I'll take it back the next time I go down to New York and go back to Ben, but until then I'm wearing it. So yeah, it's that, uh, what, what have you got on your wrist for this week? |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah. Well, I want to give a quick shout out, um, before we get to our chat with Rebecca Struthers and it is related to my watch that I've got on. And, you know, we, we were connected with Rebecca Struthers by a mutual friend and a previous TGN guest, uh, Lewis Heath, who's the founder of unordained watches. And, and I met with him when I was in Scotland last year and he loaned me his Land Rover for our road trip. And, uh, I was chatting with Lewis a few weeks back and I said, Hey, you know, we'd love to have Rebecca Struthers on the gray NATO. You know, James and I, we both read her recent book, Hands of Time, which we'll get into a little bit when we talk to her. Loved the book. She's a fascinating person, very accomplished, obviously, with a PhD and a watchmaker. And so in a sort of a tie-in with Rebecca Struthers and the connection via Louis Heath from Anordain, I'm wearing my Anordain Model 1 with the cream-colored enamel dial. And I don't pull it out a lot, but when I do, it's just such a great watch. I still have it on a blue 18 millimeter, kind of a dark blue 18 millimeter NATO strap that I put it on before the Scotland trip and did a little hiking with it. And even though it's a dressier watch, I think it works really well. And especially for my kind of usual aesthetic, I think it works kind of nicely on this strap. So fun little tie in there and yeah, great watch. |
| James Stacey | Today, we're very pleased to have Dr. Rebecca Struthers on the program. If you dig into her Wikipedia, you'll know she's an English watchmaker, historian, author, engineer, and gemologist. She works with her husband, Craig, who is also a master watchmaker. She won a Heritage Craft Award in 2021, which is presented by King Charles III. And she's the only practicing watchmaker in the United Kingdom with a PhD in horology. She also just wrote an amazing book called Hands of Time. It's largely the impetus to have Dr. Struthers on the show. But we wanted to dig into so much more than her book. And to be clear, this chat will not simply be a rehash of the chronology or the linear telling of her book. We'll ask a few questions for sure. But the goal here is all of you should go out and buy the book. It's not that expensive. You're supporting someone who's doing a very specific and unique type of work and really decided to share a bunch of this with the rest of us. It only cost me a few bucks on the Kindle and I really, really enjoyed it. I can't wait to read what she has coming in the future, but you can hear about that in the recording. So let's get to it. Dr. Rebecca Struthers. |
| Jason Heaton | Rebecca Struthers. It's really a pleasure to have you on The Grey Nado and we thank you for joining us. Welcome. |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | Thank you. Thank you so much for having me on. |
| Jason Heaton | James and I really both enjoyed your book, Hands of Time, and we obviously encourage all of our listeners to go out and buy it if they haven't already and read it. We don't really want to cover things that are already written about in the book, but maybe for a little bit of background, we like to do this when we have guests on our show. Talk a little bit about where you're sitting right now, where you're from, and how you got to the point where you're at. |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | Yeah, sure. Right now I'm sitting in a back bedroom, which is the quietest point in my zoo of a house. So yeah, but I'm currently based in Staffordshire, Staffordshire Moorlands, and our workshop's in Leek. So I'm a practicing watchmaker from Birmingham originally, lived around a few different places, trained in Birmingham, starting out as a jeweler and a silversmith before studying watchmaking. I lived in London for a while, came back to Birmingham, set up our first company with my husband, who's also a watchmaker and has been around the place. He was born in the Lake District, then kind of grew up in Essex and ended up in Birmingham too. So yeah, and then randomly ended up in Staffordshire, which is just north of that, but a beautiful part of the country. |
| Jason Heaton | Is that a kind of traditionally a watchmaking hub of the UK in Birmingham? I know there's that where the big steel industry is, right? Sheffield is nearby and that sort of thing, or am I getting that completely wrong? |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | It's not nearby in English terms, but probably down the road in American terms. Sheffield is just north of us here in Staffordshire too. Birmingham is definitely well known for its metal work and history. We were based in the Jewelry Quarter as well, which is where I studied And, uh, that was the largest jewelry making center in the world, I think at one point, and then in Europe and now probably not. Um, yeah, so the industry is, um, diminished a lot. We had a big automotive sector as well. That's, um, we've lost a lot of that. I kind of describe it as being like the Detroit of the UK, Birmingham. Um, we had a lot of big, heavy industries that just went. Um, which is a shame really, because we do have real heritage for making that. |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah. Yeah. Um, I don't, I don't think, uh, I don't, and I don't think a lot of people probably associate Birmingham, England with, with jewelry necessarily. Um, is there something distinctive about English jewelry from, from a certain era that, that we might be familiar with or know about? |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | Um, well, this is the thing with the Birmingham industry is that most people, unless they know the trade won't be familiar with it because, um, he had a lot of high quality stuff that was being made in the UK being sold in London. has actually been made in Birmingham. So if you look at things going through Garrard, Asprey, Mappin and Webb, a lot of that was being manufactured in Birmingham at the big metalsmithing centres. So for me and my Birmingham side of my family, people ask me if I've got any watchmakers. And in reality, my parents were both admin office people, so no craft heritage. But after I started doing jewellery and silversmithing, I kind of discovered that I've got a long history of metalworking in Birmingham, particularly in the precious metalworking industries. So I'm kind of, I think I'm a genetic throwback. Um, yeah, we, we didn't put our own names on, on what we made in the city and that's why it's such a kind of hidden gem in that respect. Um, which also feels really special for what I'm doing now. Cause it's like I'm from a long line of makers, but I'm the first one who's actually been able to put their own name on the things they're making, which was pretty cool. |
| Jason Heaton | And, You, you know, from, from reading the book, I understand that you kind of started in the jewelry area and then kind of learned to appreciate what was happening in the, across the hall, so to speak in the watchmaking area. And that kind of led you into watchmaking. And I'm curious going back even further before your schooling and before you even got into jewelry, did you have an interest in timekeeping or in watches like as a, as a kid or kind of growing up and. |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | Not particularly in watches. I didn't really grow up having mechanical time pieces around at all. But I loved figuring out how things work, and that was always my interest as a kid. I was constantly pulling apart redundant technology from around the house and could not put it back together again either, so you had to watch what I was allowed near. I was obsessed with skeletons. Ended up with a Fox school that I can't, I can't remember if that made it in the book. I was, I was a bit, I was a weird kid at school. Um, basically figuring out how to kind of preserve stuff. Um, I had a copy of Gray's anatomy and I used to study all the, the drawings and illustrations and try and copy them and things. And I just, yeah, I just had this fascination for understanding how the world around me works and how machines work and how technology works. And I think that's where it came from more than anything else. |
| Jason Heaton | It's funny you mentioned Grey's Anatomy. Um, this is a strange little tangent, but I have a copy, big thick copy of Grey's Anatomy here that I've had for many years. And, and the crossover that the segue into watches was I decided at some point I wasn't using the book as a book. This is might be sacrilege, but I actually opened up to the middle of the book and I cut out a well in the pages to hide a watch. I thought that would be a really cool place to hide a watch on the shelf would be in a very thick book. It felt very like a spy film or something like that. |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | Anyway. Yeah. No one's going to go looking for it. |
| Jason Heaton | Exactly. Right. Right. |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | Until you've said this. Yeah. Exactly. |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah. Right. |
| Unknown | Oops. Yeah. |
| Jason Heaton | And then, okay. So you got into watchmaking and I think you're kind of one of your claims to fame is that you are the only watchmaker in the UK with a PhD in horology. Is that correct? |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | Yes, it is. Yeah. Still. Hopefully that will change soon. |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah. So I'm curious, like, Being the only person in the UK that has a PhD in horology, how did that come about and how does that happen? What's the process? Is there a university that offers that curriculum or did you develop it yourself or how did that come about? |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | Yeah, it was complex and convoluted as well. It's the watchmaker with a PhD in horology thing. I think the problem that you've got with watchmakers are generally just practitioners, and the historians are just historians. So the people who kind of manage to connect both being a historian and a practitioner, it's very rare you get the two, the people that put the two together. The point that kind of came to mind, I'd just done my master's degree in history of art and design, because there's no master's degree in horology either. So I did art and design, history of art and design and tailored it to the history of watch and clockmaking. It was off the back of that, one of my tutors suggested I do a PhD, which I'd not even considered. I'm the first person in my direct family to go to uni, so it wasn't on my radar, but I thought, that's cool. I'm doctor, watch doctor. There's a precedent for doctor who, so why not? Yeah, trying to get a supervisory team together was difficult because there's no precedent for it. One of them I had to pull out of retirement. I managed to get a curator at the British Museum to come in as an external supervisor too, but again trying to find examiners was a struggle. And what felt like a great idea at the time, kind of by the time I graduated, I realized that by having this degree in a subject that hasn't got an academic precedent really, certainly not practitioners studying it, kind of left me unemployable in any academic sphere as well because There's no department you can just go and do this. Um, there's a, they teach urology, but it's a, yeah, it's a bachelor's degree course. It doesn't have a research presence. So the, yeah, it kind of was quite isolating as well. Um, but you know, it's taken time. Um, and I think that's another thing with urology. It's a really difficult subject because it spans across so many, um, different fields and yet no field wants to take responsibility for it. So when I was trying to publish papers or get my first academic book deal, um, I was going between like material culture who were saying, no, this is science science saying, no, this is history. Now this is history of science. Now this is design. Now this is art. And you're just getting pushed and pulled around and no one wants to go. Okay. Yes. You can come here. You can be part of our group now, which is tough, but it is, it really is changing. I think there's a real resurgence in interest and understanding of the value of time. and timekeepers within academic research. And that the practice led side of that is really important because unless you're a practitioner, you don't see the full 360 degree picture of the subject. |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah. I think that's, what's particularly engaging about your book, hands of time is the, um, it's this kind of sweeping history of time and timekeeping. Um, but then you weave into it your personal journey. Um, and, and that book must've been quite a big undertaking as well. And I'm curious, how are you finding the time to, to run your own, you know, very, very, uh, elite watch making business, um, pursue a PhD and then write this wonderful book. Uh, how did, what was the timing of all of that? How did that all come together? |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | For one, it helps having a husband doing the same thing as I'm doing. And we're together at work most days. Cause otherwise I think if we're doing two separate jobs, he'd be very tired of never seeing me. So having a supportive partner helps. And yeah, I did the PhD full time whilst in the business full time. That was a lot of work. But again, for that, I think being in the same headspace all the time really helps. So I was doing a lot of restoration at the time and working on a lot of watches from this era. So I was working on them during the day and then writing about them in the evenings and weekends and when normal people are on holiday. That sort of thing. And then the book, it was a big undertaking, but it was kind of my lockdown baby. So there was a point, we still had the workshop in Birmingham and we were living in Staffordshire when all the lockdowns kicked in with the pandemic and we couldn't get to the workshop for a while. So we built a workshop at home in our potting shed, which is so tiny. It's literally one in one out. So when we could only fit one of us in there at a time to work anyway. So I thought, okay, Craig, I'll leave you to it and I'll, I'll have a crack at this book. I I've been wanting to write for a long time. So that was, yeah, that's how that created space. Currently finding it more challenging again, cause I'm working on my next pieces now and, um, now I'm back to work full time and I don't have, um, yeah, really tiny workshop to use an excuse. That's there, but to the evenings, weekends and holidays again. |
| James Stacey | know sometimes with big projects when you look back on them it's easy to forget what maybe what you were actually feeling at the time and you look back on it with kind of fondness you know there's that quote that i always like which is there's certain types of fun that are best enjoyed once it's over and and sometimes that might include writing a book or maybe working on a very difficult piece of a watch did uh when you look back on the process of writing the book how do you feel about it does it leave you energized to maybe write a follow-up or continue writing that sort of thing |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | I mean, to be completely honest, when I finished the book, I was so drained and exhausted by the whole process. There was a point I was saying, I'm never doing this again. Um, but you kind of, yeah, when you come down from it, I mean, I love writing. I love watchmaking. I love writing. I get that same kind of electric buzz off when something just works and it doesn't matter whether it's like an object in front of me or design a mechanism or your writing. When you just hit that point where it just flows and everything is perfect and you kind of, it gives you goosebumps just thinking about how right it is that. Yeah. Yeah. I love, I can't not do it. I think I just, you do have these highs and lows, don't you? And, um, you just got to push through. |
| Jason Heaton | I think watchmaking is such a, um, it's such an interesting kind of fascinating pursuit. And when I think about writing a book, it feels like a very different sort of headspace to be in. And maybe I'm wrong and maybe, maybe you think of it differently, but, um, when it comes to kind of deconstructing a watch or rebuilding a watch or restoring a watch, there's this very physical fine motor skill sort of function, but there's also this very cerebral understanding of it. Whereas writing feels like you spend just so much time in your head. The physical part is very kind of, you know, it's, it's almost just a tangential, you know, you're just typing on a keyboard. Do you find that writing the book while you were doing some watchmaking was sort of working on different sides of your brain? |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | I suppose it does. It kind of keeps you active in both ways, which is really important to how I write as well. As you said, I kind of go between the watchmaking, being a practitioner in my own story, and the history of it. So you need to run those two things in parallel really to be able to form that touch point, I suppose, maybe. |
| Jason Heaton | Um, um, your, your business, uh, the Struthers watch company, um, that you run with, with Craig, your husband. Um, it, it, it's fascinating. I was looking through your website. Um, can you talk us through a little bit about, um, kind of your offerings as, as a watch brand or watch company in terms of, um, you have, uh, what you call the, um, you know, the, the tailor made side of things. You do some bespoke stuff, you do some restoration stuff. How has that all split up? How do you. How do you kind of structure the business in terms of your offerings? |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | So when we first started out, um, we first moved out from London to Birmingham, um, it was as restorers and that's how we both trained. So I do the earlier stuff or did the earliest of sort of 18. Wow. Okay. That's sort of 1700 to about 1850 and Craig does about 19, um, 1820 up to about 1960. And that was our area of like what we love doing. Um, and the watchmaking just kind of grew out of that really. Um, we're both quite creative, um, and like designing things as well as making them. And we just reached this point in our careers where we realized that we'd made pretty much every component for other people's watches whilst restoring them. Um, so kind of call yourself a watchmaker. So you got to make one for yourself. Um, that started off with case making. So that's around the tailor made range where we use recommissioned heritage calibers. A lot of which came from the local bullying industry in the jewelry quarter. And that was during, we founded in 2012. So it's that post recession, um, financial crash era where the gold prices were still super, super high and so much was getting scrapped and destroyed. And there was a point where the movements were just considered of no value and been literally thrown in the bin. So we saw that and thought, okay, let's just try and rescue as many as we can. And we had some of them coming with bolt cutter marks through them. Most of them are damaged and we stripped them back to bare bones and rebuild them into a watch again to give them a new life. Um, so that taught us how to make cases, dials, uh, and just the process that went around it. And then we doing that for a while, we thought, you know what, let's go whole hog all in and make our own movement from scratch. And that's two, four, eight, which the first ones we've just completed of those now. And they took six years. from start to finish. Yeah. |
| Jason Heaton | Are you planning on making kind of a production series, very limited run of that particular movement or is it sort of as they're requested, you'll, you'll make it to that same specification as many times as someone decides they want to buy one. |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | Yeah. Those, uh, well the first ones we did as a group of five, um, which was very naive of us at the time cause we thought, um, economies of scale that if we made a bunch of them in one go, it'd be faster and easier for us to do. But, As you quickly, or we certainly quickly learned when you're handcrafting something from scratch from the pile of lumps of metal, uh, there is no economies of scale. There is no fast way. And you just giving yourself five times the amount of work. So we've learned that the hard way. Um, and with these ones going out now, um, future models will be one at a time and one after the other. So we're selling 10 year while we have sold 10 years of bill slots, meaning there'll be 15 in total. But they're all made to order, so we work with the client to specify the design details and things too, so they'll all be different. Yeah, 15. And then the retirement plan, in inverted commas, which is where we're going to make things to our own specifications and sell them when we finish. |
| James Stacey | You gave us a date range of kind of the area of watches that you like to work on. What would you consider kind of the home base for your taste in watches? whether it be... It could be something more modern, maybe something you actually like to wear. Presumably, maybe that's one that you made or not, I'm not sure. But I'm interested because it's one thing to have sort of antiquarian appreciation, it's another thing to try and translate that into a product that somebody might wanna buy today. Some of the watches, certainly described in say the first half of your book, probably don't have even wide scale commercial appeal in the independent market. Maybe that's fair to say? |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | Yeah, I think certainly they're very hard to wear by modern standards. They were designed to be worn as pendants and hanging from your waist when now most gentlemen, I think it's fair to say, wouldn't wear a solid lump of emerald with a watch in it around their neck to go to the shops. Yeah, so there's been a lot of changes. I mean, stylistically now for the watches that we create, we love everything from sort of 1920s through to 1940s, especially marks like Cartier, Acheron, Patek, some of those really early sort of Cress Arrow, Agassiz as well, the more obscure ones. That's where we look to for our design inspiration for current wristwatches. Although the movement for 248 was inspired by one of the last fully machine-made movements to come out of the UK in Coventry. That dated to around 1880 and would have been a pocket watch, but we've created it as a wristwatch. So it's a bit of a fusion between a few different styles. That was kind of, we wanted to look back to where the British industry tailed off and kind of pick up what we are 144 years later. Yeah. Yeah. So kind of put our own contemporary take on it and introduce a few other things from different parts of the world and just different styles of watchmaking that we love to create something that is kind of a celebration of what we find interesting about what we do. |
| James Stacey | And if we give someone listening to this, the folks listening to this, a chance to kind of take a visual route as you're speaking, I can put obviously the link to Project 248 in the show notes for anyone listening. What should somebody be looking at in these images that you could draw back to that sort of era, those last watches made on a machine? |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | Yeah, so this is a point in the UK where we'd failed miserably to keep up with international competition. So we were firm for a long time that the UK would continue making high-end watches for the few and everywhere else around the world could do the mass production thing, which didn't entirely work out. So we finally admitted defeat and started trying to buy in mass production machinery from the US in the 1860s, 1870s. And a lot of this ended up in Coventry. So you can see the almost traditional English style of the watch. It's got full plates to it, so you can't see the wheels inside. You can just see the balance, which is very English in style. But this would have been made on a machine similar to the likes of Waltham, for example, or Elgin or Hamilton. And to that, we've added things like the plates made from German silver, just because we love South German watchmaking, especially if you look at Lange and Langenhain. Some of these brands are just phenomenal and the earlier and the Swiss, uh, German silver stuff being made around the turn of the 20th century as well. It's just so beautiful and it ages so well that we've taken that we've used, um, a kind of scroll engraving, which is, uh, very traditionally English that was done in Germany by a gun engraver. Um, so very international in our approach as well. We, we like to work with the best artisans wherever they are in the world. We don't care if they're in the UK or not, which again, that's a really traditional watchmaking approach. That's what. independent watchmakers were doing 200-300 years ago, and that was normal, whereas now it's all about in-house. So you've got that. The balance style was inspired by George Daniels. The rocking bar keyless work we designed based on studying photographs of Derek Pratt's rocking bar keyless work, along with studying original examples too. It's a parachute shock setting, fully functional, and that was inspired by Breguet. So there's nothing hidden underneath that. It is a full functioning parachute that we managed to find an example from around 1800 that we studied and reverse engineered that. So you've got these little things and details in there. I think this is the restorer background. We're always thinking about what's going to happen to our watches 100, 200 years time. So even though we'll be long gone by then, as probably will the clients who bought them, we're still worried about how these watches are going to be maintained. So one of those things is for the barrel arbor, we could have put a lovely big jewel in there. However, as restorers, you know, they always crack. They always end up going and because they're quite an unusual size, they can be really hard to replace. But we didn't just want to leave it as a metal bearing because that's not going to age well. And with a bit of research and digging, we found a kind of bronze alloy that's used in formula one. So we've got kind of the gold shots on and then this matching bronze alloy inside it as well. That's going to be really hard wearing, really durable. It's not going to crack or damage or break over the years using 21st century material science in a design that's sort of, yeah, over 140 years old. |
| Jason Heaton | So these bearings, these are alloy bearings as opposed to, and forgive my ignorance here, as opposed to using. Uh, rubies or artificial rubies or is that in addition to, or? |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | Yeah, that's instead of for the barrel, the rest of the train is your traditional, um, synthetic Ruby, but it's barrel jaws because they're quite a large diameter and the barrel itself is quite a large diameter. You've got a very thin band of jewel. Um, and it's so brittle that it really does. They do tend to go and yeah, they're quite a specialist size as well. So they're hard to, hard to replace. |
| Jason Heaton | I can't even conceive of what it must be like to make something by your own hand that then you could conceivably you personally wear on a daily basis and wind up and it keeps the time of your life literally. Um, that must be such a special feeling. And there are very few of us, James, me, people listening. Well, James is somewhat accomplished or he's getting into carpentry more, so maybe he can relate a little bit. But, Let's not use the word accomplish. I think that's a step too far. I can bake a good loaf of banana bread. That's about my extent of making things. I'm much more oriented around writing, which is a very different experience. And I mean, is there any way that you can relate what that experience must be like? Or have you gotten a bit jaded about that? Or is it a special thing to put on a watch that you've made and wear it? |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | We've never had the time to make a watch for ourselves yet. We're too busy making everyone else's. But I think, I mean, You've just said something that I mean, it's so true. And I think it applies to both of you and probably everyone listening to this is that there is something really special about being able to come up with an idea and have the skills to make that idea a real thing in front of you. And it doesn't matter whether it's a watch or a loaf of banana bread, you know, it's, um, it's a real pleasure. It's a very human thing, isn't it? We've been making stuff for thousands and thousands of years and it kind of, it's so satisfying. Um, and it, yeah, it doesn't have to be big and flash to bring us pleasure and joy. Um, it can be anything. |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah. Yeah. One thing I've found charming and rather humorous, uh, in the book was you mentioned that, uh, when you're at work, oftentimes you wear, I think it's a, like a Casio digital watch on a day to day basis. Right. Which, which struck me as, as, as kind of funny, but, um, when you're not wearing that, let's say you want a special night out or you're just going out somewhere Um, do you have a particularly special watch that maybe you've restored or that was a gift to you or something that you wear and what would that be? |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | Yeah. I mean, my most special one is probably, um, 19 late 1940s, nine carat gold accuracy inherited from my granddad. Um, and that was just purely for sentimental reasons. Yeah. I've got a few little pieces from over the years, things that have been given to me, generally speaking, are the things that mean the most to me, just cause you've got that connection then with the person, um, have one. Craig's just bought me a lovely little vintage Jaeger for my birthday. That's 1930s. And so that'd be another special one too. Yeah, it's really sweet. So yeah, for me, I think that's, that's the thing with watches as well is that although they're time keepers, they kind of remind us of that moment in time and particularly the inherited pieces because it takes you back to that person wearing them And it's something they would have kept in such close proximity to themselves too, that you can see photos of them wearing it and now it's something that you have. And they just have so many different meanings on so many different levels. Yeah. Yeah. |
| James Stacey | And you certainly discussed the concept of the memento mori and some of these other ways in which a watch became very personal to some of these very famous people from history, people who were in charge of huge parts of the world at some points in their lives and you know in some cases kept watches very close themselves were seen you know uh in illustrations with with the watches and and that they really do kind of reflect more than just what was at the time a pure luxury of being able to track the time on your own rather than at a church clock or or something even you know more archaic than that i think it is kind of an interesting thing that that element hasn't necessarily changed maybe the context is tweaked a little bit but we still buy watches for major memories. You still look back and you get, maybe you get a watch from a family member and like you said, you've got an old photo of them wearing it or you know that they wore it at their wedding or what may be. I like that that still kind of exists even as watches have become much more democratized, far more commercial, that sort of thing. |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | Yeah, definitely. It's been, yeah, like you say, gift watches is still such a, a big thing. And, um, you know, whether it was graduations and, And we find as restorers as well, you get the stories that come in with them. So when we repair people's watches, we get to find out a little bit of these stories and the memories to the point. I mean, a while ago we had, it was just a Rolex Submariner, 1980s, came in from a guy and there was a big dent in the clasp of it. And we asked kind of, how much finishing do you want us to do? We like doing sympathetic restoration. We'll keep it, we'll make it look clean and tidy, but we don't want it looking brand new sort of a thing. Keep the provenance. And so we asked him what he wanted to do. And he was like, no, no, I want you to leave that. And he told us how it was a holiday. He went diving with his father and caught the break at the watch. And that's how this big dent got into it. But his dad had passed away about a year after that. And that was the last time he'd been away with his dad. And it's his memory of his holiday and this lovely time that he had with him. And it's really important to him that he kept that with the watch. And it's, again, it's that kind of like the memories that create with the objects by being so close to us that it can have been bought for a sentimental occasion or inherited. And then we kind of go on to create all these wonderful memories with it ourselves. And then, you know, we might pass that on or, or then maybe ends up in an auction and starting a completely new life with a new story with someone else. You know, and I think that when I handle them as well, like you, you've got all these incredible histories that we know, but you never really know histories are the ones that don't have that provenance. They could have equally amazing stories and you just don't know what's in front of you. |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah, I think that's probably the majority of old watches too. You find them in a thrift shop or they come across your desk or something and you don't know who wore that and it's part of that mystique, the imagination, the things that you build into it, the possibilities of it. Where did that dent come from or that scratch? Do you have any particularly favorite restoration stories? You bring up several in the book, but does one stand out that this was the one that stands out the most? |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | A good question. There's the one that I discuss in the book, which was a pilot's spotted watch and the chap was shot down and he and his watch survived. I won't go into too much detail about that because that was an incredible one. I think that's a As a historian, as a researcher, and you're planted with this incredible story, that's just too good to be true. And I'm sure you know what it's like. You start digging into this thinking, Oh, it's going to unravel. I'm going to, I'm going to do this research and I'm going to find that the dates don't match that they kind of, the details don't match names, don't match. So I did due diligence and really went back over a fine tooth comb and everything tied up everything, every last detail. matched up to the point that the guy who brought it in, it was the original owner's son. And he was even saying, oh, dad told me this, he told me that. I have no idea if it's true. And yeah, everything was spot on from what he said as to what happened in history. So that was a really lovely one. We had another one recently that a guy, he'd been bought it as his 21st birthday present. And he'd gone running out and jumped in the sea off the coast of Scotland with it. And it was a lovely old Lanko, uh, 1940s and got wet and obviously immediately rusted and he couldn't find anyone to fix it. So it had been in a drawer for 40 years. |
| Jason Heaton | Oh my gosh. |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | Yeah. And, uh, and, uh, yeah, couldn't find anyone to fix it until he read about us in a newspaper article and sent it in, see if we'd have a look. And yeah, we did. We fixed it. We got it running again and that was quite. That was emotional. Things like that can be... We've had tears in the workshop, mine included. |
| James Stacey | I'm sure. I'm curious because we're talking about your love of watches, especially, say, up until essentially the pre-war or right at the edge of the war era, Second World War. In my mind, and we talk about this occasionally on the show, but in my mind, the major change in watchmaking of the, since then, like since the war to now has been the advent and the kind of continued push for essentially disposable watches. If you go back to the seventies and earlier, it feels like just about anything can be brought back, even if it's sat in one underwater and then sat in a drawer for a while. And I don't know if we would say the same about, um, it in even a modest watch. Now there's so much more plastic. There's so much more that probably, I don't want to, I am leading getting to a question eventually here, but the, uh, I'm curious what, as someone who obviously with the antiquarian horology background and also actively restoring, connecting with people over these watches that weren't disposable and haven't been even, maybe even long after the brand might've considered them out of use. How do you feel about the kind of the direction of watches now, whether it's the use of plastics or simply things that are meant to be a little bit less lasting? |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | I mean, you've kind of got, you've got three main directions. I started off with the quartz crisis and the quartz revolution that kind of pushed it into your mechanical traditional and then the quartz side of things. And now you've got smart watches, obviously, which is another third direction that's come out of this. And yeah, smart technology is by its nature obsolete in a few years. So that's the ultimate disposability. Even a lot of quartz watches can still be repaired in one way or another. So that's been interesting. Yeah, I mean, I like things that can be repaired. For me, that's a testament of a good quality watch as well. Again, it's probably me just coming at this from a restorer's perspective, but I judge the quality of a mechanical watch based on how easy it is to take apart, repair, and put back together again. I'm quite simple on that. Maybe it's a wonderful, well-known brand of watch, or it could be a no-name watch. At the same time, you get these really high-end brands that are an absolute nightmare to work on. Thinking, goodness me. |
| James Stacey | This sounds like the automotive space. |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | Yeah. Yeah. So it's, it's interesting to see how that kind of plays out and literally plays out as well. Like when we're designing watches using that knowledge of what things work and don't work, which lasts and don't last, not just in aesthetic terms, but in technological terms. Um, and I looked today at some of the watches being released and some of them incredibly valuable watches. And I'm looking at that thinking, God, I don't want to be at one service in that in 30, 40 years time, that's going to be a nightmare. And that's with mechanical ones. So yeah, quartz is, and yeah, smartwatches are just here today, gone in a few years when the next software update crashes them. |
| James Stacey | Yeah. And have you, did you, did you get into trying a smartwatch? Have you tried an Apple watch or something like that or no real interest even for the functionality? |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | No, I think I don't have an issue with them. Um, and I actually, I think they've done a lot of good in getting a whole new group of people wearing watches again, who weren't wearing watches before. So we've had people start off not wearing a watch, then getting into smartwatches and then developing an interest in mechanical, traditional artisanal watchmaking off the back of that. So it's a good thing, but for me, I suppose. I mean, my phone and my laptop seem to follow me around my life at the best of times. I think if I was wearing a watch telling me when I had emails and phone calls and messages coming in, it would just be too much for me. That's just too much. I like the mystery of not knowing sometimes. And that's the wonderful thing about traditional mechanical watches is you can just switch off and you can go out the house and you've not got anything calling you back, telling you what's going on. It's nice to just be able to cut off. |
| James Stacey | You know, maybe pulling at the last final thread there. When you do go out, but you still would like to know the time, maybe you're leaving your phone at home, what do you like to wear most days? What's your sort of taste? Is it something a little older? |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | Yeah, it depends on what I'm doing. So if I'm going, say, out with the dog, which is one of my favorite things to do, something a bit more robust. So that's probably back on the Casio again. We've got, Craig and I've got Kawoi, I think I've pronounced that right-ish. Yeah, Kyoto, Japanese watches, which are just mechanical. Yeah. Durable, easy. Don't have to worry too much about them. I wouldn't wear one of my vintage pieces out doing anything where I'm even remotely concerned about getting them wet or muddy or anything else. Yeah. And then, yeah, for dress watches, we've got quite a range of vintage pieces, everything from some vintage Rolexes, Egyptian lug Rolexes, really early air King. They're just some really weird, obscure... We've got a bit of a thing about early waterproof watches, so just weird designs that never caught on. We've got some really early automatic wristwatches as well that are terrible. I mean, they barely worked at the time, but we just find them interesting, so yes. |
| James Stacey | Reminds me of the part of the book about verge escapement. Very interesting. Not always necessarily the recommended solution. |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | Yeah. |
| Jason Heaton | I did see that the, uh, I believe it was the Louis Vuitton award that was recently awarded to, I think his name is Raoul Pages and, and his, his watch incorporates a detente escapement. |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | Did you, did you follow that Rebecca? It's so good to see Raoul being recognized because he's been kind of on the margins for quite a long time. And I don't think really has received the, um, acknowledgement for what he's achieved with his watchmaking that he should have done. So it was good to see that. Um, yeah, we love that watch. Um, we call him our honorary member of the Dead Escapement Society. Um, there's only three of us, two of us being me and Craig. So we brought back the English Libra escapement with our Project 248 watch. Um, and now the death aunt is, uh, yeah, another dead escapement back from the ashes. |
| James Stacey | I feel like there's a good t-shirt business in there with that Dead Escapement Society is a good one. |
| Jason Heaton | Oh yeah. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious, you know, you talked about, kind of watches that might be a nightmare to service. And I'm thinking about your work in restoration and whether, I guess it's a two-part question. You can think about this for a while, but was there ever a restoration project that completely stumped you or a project or a restoration that you would just not touch because of a certain aspect of the movement? And then the second part of that question is what does make a good watch movement? And I've always, I always want to ask watchmakers this question because I think among the the civilians among us, um, we often talk about, Oh, you know, Seiko movements are robust. Or I remember hearing Roger Smith say that like a speed master was a good movement. Um, that, you know, the caliber, uh, three 21. And I always think what makes a movement good? What is it inherent in a movement or its design or construction that makes it good? And then going back to that earlier question, have there ever been any that, that you would just not touch or that you've walked away from? |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | In terms of for us, what makes a watch movement good, we'd come back to how easy it is to service and repair. So that longevity and durability. So our, I mean, our ultimate watch movement from history is the Amiga 3210 because they are just, they're bulletproof and they're brilliant. They're a real watchmakers watch movement. I think there's a good reason that George Daniels chose one to experiment with his early coaxial escapements in. Yeah, they're just lovely to work with, really easy to repair and yeah, they're beautiful, beautiful caliber and movement. |
| Jason Heaton | So wait, no, wait, before you move on, I'm just, what, what is it that makes it easy to service? Is it the layout of it or is it, it was just intuitively put together. So I old, I own an old Land Rover and it's, you know, the, the, the feeling among Land Rover owners is they're easy to work on with ordinary hand tools. It's like a big Lego truck that you can just take apart and put together. Is that kind of the same analogy? |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, absolutely that. Yeah. You can get parts for them as well. And any parts you can't get are easy enough to make. So yeah, it's that overall, that's a really good comparison. Um, yeah, they're just, I mean, they were designed as military watch movements that were used in the kind of 1930s, 40s calibers. And you can tell there's no fussiness to them. There's no unnecessary level of complication in the engineering that is going to create problems further down the line. With modern watches you get a lot of, and this will come into things that we wouldn't do, where you get modular complications and things where they've not actually been designed into the caliber. They've just been bolted on the back of it. And they can be really problematic too. So it's not got anything added to it that it doesn't need. It just is what it has to be to perform. And it does that job beautifully. Um, yeah, no unnecessary parts. There's not a single screw there that you could get away with not having, it's just designed to be good. And, um, yeah, it does it well. |
| Jason Heaton | So priorities on durability and serviceability. I, I do hear that over and over. And I think to myself, the cliche about say, Italian cars or German cars versus something simple like a Chevrolet or a Land Rover that you could easily work on. It's the idea that a German car is unnecessarily, they're high quality and very precise, but they're also very much more difficult to work on. Is that again, that, that you're, you're placing a lot of priority on durability and serviceability over beauty complication. |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | I mean, yeah, I'm more of a Land Rover person. And the older ones rather than the modern ones too, which is again, the same as watchmaking for that reason. Cause I mean, that can bring us around to what we wouldn't work on, which is modern watches. Um, because there's just so much red tape that goes with that access to parts is such a big problem. Um, and that they can be a real pain to work on. And I feel there are times when I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels like this. Um, brands intentionally make their own watches harder to work on, unless you pay them large amounts of money for the specialist tools to work on them with, because they make money doing that. Um, but you know, then you're assuming that that brand will always be around and always be willing to look at that model of watch for you. So a lot of them won't touch their watches once they're, I mean, some of them call vintage 10 years old. I mean, that's not, you know, I'm very vintage if it's 10 years old, um, which is nothing really. And it's. I mean, I don't know what that tells you about the longevity that they're planning for the things that they're making. |
| Unknown | Yeah. |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | Cause unless they're willing to service that in 50 years time, a hundred years time, then you know, you've got watches potentially worth hundreds of thousands of dollars obsolete. And I wonder sometimes if there's a bit of a flow to it, like cycle to it as well, especially when people are first getting interested in watches, it's very easy to only see the big brands because they have the marketing budgets. So they're the ones that are right up there at the front. And we certainly see this with some of our collectors is that they'll start off on that journey with some of those big brands, and then they'll slowly find their way in through that. So it's almost like the gateway to them discovering independent watchmaking or vintage or antique watches too. So I think there's certainly some flow. I don't know how much of a flow, how many people just see the brands and stick to the brands and how many of them of use that as a point to venture out from. |
| Jason Heaton | We're seeing kind of a bit of a, I feel like it's kind of a new golden age for, for British watchmaking. I just feel like we're seeing so much more activity and talk about a lot of these smaller and bigger watch brands in the UK that are just kind of making waves again. Is that, is that what your impression is as well? And are you obviously happy about that? I would assume. |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | Yeah, definitely. I think it's really cool. The industry in terms of the different approaches people are taking, I don't think it's ever been more diverse. We've got everything from designers coming into it and buying in components to people making watches from scratch and everything in between. And anything that makes noise for the national trade is good. I've actually just come out of a meeting um, a government meeting where hopefully ratifying the UNESCO convention for intangible cultural heritage in the UK, which, um, uh, that will be ratified in the summer with any luck. But we were one of a handful of countries that. Wasn't subscribed to that, which is madness, but watching clockmaking is on the agenda for one of the possible fingers crossed possible things that we might get on that list. Um, and it seems like a fitting time to do it as well, because it's just. There's so much here and it's such an important part of the history of manufacturing in this country, that we used to be this wonderful center of watchmaking that just fizzled out over the late 19th and early 20th centuries. To see a resurgence of that and see that recognized is really cool. |
| James Stacey | I'm curious, if that's ratified, how does that reflect on the work that you do? Would that mean there's more support? Would that open up channels for more people to be able to learn? and follow the path that kind of you established with your PhD, that sort of thing? |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | Yeah, potentially. So it's all about safeguarding. And there'll be an assessment of the subject and what the industry, what the trade, what the skills need to safeguard them for the future. And yeah, education is definitely a problem. The schools that we have, I mean, the longest courses you can do are three years. And a traditional watchmaking or clockmaking apprenticeship was sort of seven years long, followed by another two, three years as a journeyman before you become a master. And there's no way you can learn that now. It is really hard to train apprentices in-house because especially when there's only one or two of you, if you're not working, then nobody's working. So we've, we've been through that personally and it is, it is a real struggle. Um, so there's definitely a gap in training to make sure that students, graduates are able to continue that learning process and they don't just end up stuck in a service center. And that's all they ever end up doing, unless that's what they want to do, of course. So that I think, and yeah, just raising awareness to, um, that we have this industry here. Cause I know I'm speaking with people who, who get this, this is what we all do. We, we love this subject, but you go out on the high street and ask people about British watchmaking and I bet you the majority of people wouldn't know anything about British watchmaking, what it's doing now or the history of the subject. |
| Unknown | Yeah. |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | It's, um, yeah, it's about getting it out there in a, in a big way, hopefully. |
| Jason Heaton | Well, it's, uh, it's certainly encouraging to see what, what you're doing and what you and Craig are doing with, with, uh, with your company. And, um, the book is fantastic. We will definitely, uh, encourage our listeners to read it, put a link in the show notes, but, um, you know, before we, before we let you go, how do people follow you? I mean, we, I know you're on Instagram and, Um, certainly the book is out there, but, uh, any other things coming up, any appearances, any talks, any other places we should send people? |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | Um, well, Instagram's probably the best place. Um, we've got a company one, I've got one in Crayscope, one for his illustrations as well. He illustrated the book too. Um, yeah, it's, uh, it's all right, innit? It'll do. I love the illustrations. Yeah. Um, and, um, my next big thing is it's coming up to a year away now. I'm publishing a kid's book about horology too. So this is hopefully going to introduce that next generation of young people to watch. |
| Jason Heaton | Fantastic. Well, Rebecca Struthers, we really appreciate you taking a boy close to an hour to, uh, to sit down and chat with us. It's really been, really been a great pleasure. |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | Thank you so much. I'm really grateful to you for inviting me to join you. |
| Jason Heaton | Appreciate it. All the best. Thank you. |
| Dr. Rebecca Struthers | Thank you. |
| Jason Heaton | All right. Well, that was, uh, that was a treat. Um, you know, we have some great guests on the show. We've, we've had a few kind of watchmakers and people in the watch industry, obviously with tied with brands, but, uh, what a privilege to have someone as accomplished and interesting, uh, and friendly and just so willing to chat with us about a myriad of subjects as a Dr. Rebecca Struthers. So thanks again, Dr. Struthers for joining us. And as James said at the top, Go out and buy Hands of Time. It is a wonderful book. And as you mentioned also, James, it makes a great gift. |
| James Stacey | So good stuff. It does. Yeah. No, it's one that I'll be definitely buying for folks this year as a gift. I love being able to send someone a book, especially if you get talking about a topic like, like Rebecca's book for that example. And then you can just follow it up with a 10 or $15 thing, a little thank you, that sort of thing. But yeah, a huge thank you to Dr. Struthers for coming on and Yeah, an absolute treat. I love being able to do this kind of stuff. It's a brand new perspective and we highly recommend the book. Look man, that was a great chat. I'm running low on energy if I'm perfectly honest with the crew here. You want to get into some final notes? |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah, let's do it. It looks like we both have Netflix recommendations, which is cool. I just watched a documentary about the author Tom Wolfe, kind of one of my favorite writers, of, you know, the seventies and eighties and into the nineties, of course, wrote bonfire of the vanities was his first novel, which was a huge hit. Um, of course the book that I'm most keen on was the right stuff. I kind of make a point of reading at least parts of it annually. Uh, I just think he has such a unique style of writing. And there was a fairly short documentary. It was just, just over an hour long on Netflix called radical wolf. And it covers his kind of life and history as a writer, as an author, I'm going through kind of the different phases of his career. You know, there was just a lot I didn't know about him. I kind of knew his tie with what they call the new journalism movement, which he was kind of credited with, with starting back in the late sixties and yeah, just a, just a really fascinating look at, at, at a great author. And I think, you know, authors as personalities, you know, you have a few nowadays, but I think he's, his name still kind of towers above, a good number of them from from that era. So, yeah, if you're a fan of his work and kind of keen to learn more about him and kind of the work he did over several decades, check it out. It's on Netflix called Radical Wolf. |
| James Stacey | That sounds great. Good, good suggestion. And mine would offer kind of a weird pairing, if I'm honest, if you wanted to do both, but also not a not an overly heavy or dire subject for a documentary. It's called The Greatest Night in Pop. It's on Netflix. And the explanation is, on a January night in 1985, music's biggest stars gathered to record We Are the World. The team goes behind the scenes of the event to see how the artists came together to make history. It's basically a fairly entertaining, ego-driven dissertation on the creation of this song. And don't get me wrong, this song came out a year before I was born, so I wouldn't say I was necessarily around for it hitting the radio, but I know We Are the World, maybe because Michael Jackson had another kind of big hit with Free Willy, which was a big move in my house growing up. But we know We Are The World, if you're young enough to not even recognize it, I think this just becomes a really fun kind of pop culture documentary. It's largely anchored with some interviews with Lionel Richie and Bruce Springsteen, Huey Lewis, Cyndi Lauper, that sort of thing. I think this is a fantastic, really fun one. A lot of times when we recommend documentaries, it's about people doing something very dangerous, or possibly losing their mind doing something difficult or something like that. This, on the other hand, is mostly just entertainment. I think it's really well told. It premiered at Sundance and has since been picked up by Netflix as of January 29th, so it should be available for most. And it's currently holding as much weight as you put in. This is up to you, but 98% on Rotten Tomatoes, so not too bad. |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah, I watched this. I think I watched this the night before I watched Radical Wolf, as a matter of fact, and I agree. I thought it was great. I mean, some great insights, some great background. I am older than you by a fair bit. And I do remember when that song came out and it was, it was hugely popular. And I, you know, I haven't watched this. I, I had no idea that this was done on the night that it was done and that they spent an entire night into the next morning working on it. I thought that was the most interesting part, but yeah, good, good pick. |
| James Stacey | Well, super fun. Two great documentaries to give you something to do in one of the darker months of the year, especially if you're not getting enough snow to go and do anything very exciting with the cold weather. So. I hope everyone enjoys that. Look, as always, thank you so much for listening. If you want to subscribe to the show notes, get into the comments for each episode or consider supporting the show directly, maybe even grab yourself a new TGN signed NATO, please visit thegraynado.com. Music throughout is of course, Siesta by Jazzar via the free music archive. |
| Jason Heaton | And we leave you with this Maori proverb, which is from Dr. Struthers book. I walk backwards into my future with my eyes fixed on the past. |