The Grey NATO – 244 – The Lost Tape With Dr. Sylvia Earle

Published on Thu, 22 Jun 2023 06:00:00 -0400

Synopsis

Paragraph 1: This episode features a "lost tape" interview with renowned marine biologist and explorer Dr. Sylvia Earle, conducted by Jason Heaton a few years ago. They discuss Dr. Earle's remarkable career, her passion for ocean conservation, and the urgent need to protect the world's marine ecosystems from overfishing, pollution, and climate change.

Paragraph 2: Dr. Earle shares her insights on the importance of raising public awareness about the ocean's vital role in sustaining life on Earth. She emphasizes the need for a paradigm shift in how we view and treat marine life, moving away from exploiting it as a commodity and towards preserving it as a vital part of the planet's life support system. Overall, the interview is a powerful call to action to protect the oceans for the sake of future generations.

Transcript

Speaker
Jason Heaton Hello and welcome to another episode of The Grey Nato, a loose discussion of travel, adventure, diving, driving, gear, and most certainly watches. This is episode 244, and it's proudly brought to you by our ever-growing TGN supporter crew. We thank everyone so much for the continued support, and if you're listening and interested in supporting the show, but don't do that yet, please visit TheGreyNato.com for more details. James, uh, we're, it's kind of a peculiar recording of this one, given that we're, we're traveling. So we wanted to do kind of a special episode, but how's it going given that we just spoke a few minutes ago?
James Yeah, exactly. We just finished recording episode two 43. We're doing a blitz on two 44 here so that I've got time to be able to edit it on, on planes and that sort of thing in the coming few days. Uh, this is an exciting episode and we're definitely going to basically get to the main topic as quickly as possible as it's a really fun interview. But a quick heads up for everybody listening. We will be at Windup Chicago, July 15th and 16th. We'll be camped out for office hours at the Citizen booth sometime on Saturday. We'll let you know that time as it becomes available. And then we're also recording a live podcast on Sunday with the guys from Worn and Wound. But the big news is we're throwing a special TGN meetup with Citizen on Saturday, the 15th after Windup closes for the day at Great Central Brewing. It's a walkable distance from Venue West. It's going to be a great time. We'll have some beers. maybe some other goodies. And it'd be great to see all of you there if you can make it. So stay tuned for more information. But again, we'll be in Chicago for windup July 15th and 16th, and we'll see you there. All right, let's get into the meat of this one with, uh, you know, the, the windup news out of the way, we've got a special kind of, uh, Jason, how would we describe this lost forgotten recording, uh, with, uh, Sylvia Earl, it was a tape for an interview, right?
Jason Heaton Yeah. I like, I like the, I like the name lost tape because, uh, we had this kind of sitting in our, online repository for gosh, I think it was back in 2021. Um, I had been commissioned to, to write a story, um, for the telegraph in, in London by an editor I've worked with for a long time. And, and it was kind of centered around Sylvia Earl and her work with Rolex. And, um, to get a few quotes, uh, I did a zoom call with her and, and recorded the whole thing, both video and audio. And it's, it's fairly good quality as you'll find out. Um, but I, I literally only pulled, you know, a handful of quotes and kind of some, some information from that chat with her. And then we had this like almost hour long, you know, discussion with, with none other than Dr. Sylvia Earl. And I think, um, given our recent, uh, actually it was episode two 42, our, our chat with, with captain Don Walsh of Trieste fame. Um, you know, we got some feedback from people saying, you guys need to have Sylvia Earl on next. And lo and behold, we, we dug up this, this old tape, which remains largely timeless in terms of the content of our discussion. So it seemed appropriate to run it.
James Absolutely. So for those of you who don't know Dr. Sylvia Earle, she's an absolute champion of our sort of world. She is a renowned marine biologist, explorer, and environmental advocate who has dedicated her life to exploring and protecting the world's oceans. With a career spanning over six decades, Dr. Earle has been at the forefront of deep sea exploration, setting numerous records for diving to extreme depths and spending countless hours underwater studying marine life. She has served as the chief scientist of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration and has led more than 100 expeditions around the globe, shedding light on the importance of ocean conservation and the urgent need to preserve our marine ecosystems. As a pioneer in the field, Dr. Earle's passion and expertise has made her a leading voice in the fight to protect our oceans and inspire a new generation of ocean stewards. I think that's a pretty good bio, but really we're here for the tape. So let's get to it.
Jason Heaton When we last met it was, I don't know if you remember, it was in Cabo Pulmo and I was there with the Rolex group and I think you and I were the only divers other than Kip.
Dr. Sylvia Earle There was a great school of... What were those?
Jason Heaton Silversides or some kind of... Fishermen would call them bait fish.
Dr. Sylvia Earle Yeah, right.
Jason Heaton I haven't been back there since. My wife, we were there many years ago and she wants to go back and I've heard the shark populations, really booming there and the people are seeing orcas more regularly and that's such a success story.
Dr. Sylvia Earle Well, it really is. I think particularly because the local people there, including the fishermen, did what you'd like to think that scientists do. They observe carefully and then they report honestly what they see.
Unknown Yeah.
Dr. Sylvia Earle And instead of just, well, they did actually for years could drive, drive, drive until the population of fish that they were after vanished. They went further and further offshore, but then it was basically gone. And as witnesses, they decided to try to do something about it. Often, it doesn't work out that way. They just continue to do the same old thing with the whalers, the Yankee whalers. They just went all the way to the Galapagos to get fish. And beyond. Yeah.
Jason Heaton Antarctica. Yeah.
Dr. Sylvia Earle Gosh. Just crazy. But bravo for Coppapommo community. However, having said that, not everyone in that region is convinced. And in fact, during my last visit to Coppapommo, after we were there together, there was a big collection of dead sharks early one morning. Not all the fishermen had reformed. Some of the fishermen are sticking to their own ways. And, you know, I've never seen a Mako in the ocean alive, but there was one dead in the collection that they had. Oh no. Five species in a boat that they were just finning. Oh my gosh. And then they took the bodies back in the ocean. Oh my gosh. It was really sad.
Jason Heaton Wow. Right in town there or was it?
Dr. Sylvia Earle Right on the edge. It was in the reserve. But they said that they caught them outside the reserve. Anyway.
Unknown Yeah.
Jason Heaton Is what you described as the success story of Cabo Pulmo the ideal scenario that you'd like to see with the hope spots and other places around the world? Is that the ideal situation where industry changes and people's awareness, they kind of observe and react accordingly? I mean, is that the way that things will reverse on a large scale, do you think?
Dr. Sylvia Earle Well, I think that we're all witnesses to the greatest era of change in the history of humankind, change, environmental change, and scientists aren't alone. The kids certainly are champions for looking ahead to the consequences of what we do now and what it is doing to their future. But most importantly, the knowledge that now exists that did not and could not exist. Well, when I was a child, it just didn't. Everything from knowing what Earth looks like from space to realizing that everything really does connect, that the dusts of the Sahara fly across the Atlantic and land on the coral reefs in Bonaire.
Unknown Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Sylvia Earle Continue on, darken the snows of Colorado and continue. Everything connects so that the fires in wherever they are, California or Australia or in the Amazon affect the whole world. And we're just beginning to understand that good news anywhere is good news everywhere. And similarly, bad news is. So it's not yet kind of universally in the minds and hearts of everybody, but there's a growing. Maybe it's not quite a critical mass yet, but I think we're getting there with people understanding that what they do matters. And you ask if the Kobo Pomo situation is ideal. I would say whatever it takes. It's something that starts at the top, or at least comes down from the top, like the presidential actions in this country. First Bush and later Obama in embracing the Papua New Makuakea Marine Reserve. A large portion of the community, especially the native Hawaiians, were largely in favor of that. but some of the commercial fishermen are still trying to turn things around. They just think somehow it's been taken from them as if they belong, that the ocean belongs to them. One thing that I think will be transformative is the understanding. You don't have to invent this because it's just true. Fish are not free. Nature is. not free, although we treat it that way. The ocean is full of free groceries. Just, we can just go get them. Anybody can. We don't have to pay for them. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds really good. It's all free goods. And on a limited basis, we've been able to get away with that, with people feeding their families, their communities, and even forming the basis of a modest economic interest. But once we started to scale up and treat fish as products or really treat ocean wildlife as money, it's free money. And it's not for food. It's for selling. It's about selling fish for money or shrimp or squid for you name it, oil, gas, anything from the ocean. It's not free. And even when energy companies have to pay leases for oil and gas extraction. It just doesn't come close to the value of what they extract. And when you think that any thought of it being, quote, sustainable is ridiculous, because it takes so long for these, call them assets, if you will, to form, like hundreds of millions of years in some cases. And even with fish, They don't just recover, bounce back in the season. They have seasonal closures. And I suppose that helps because anytime that the creatures of the sea get a little break, it's good news. But when we take 30, 40, 50, a hundred year old creatures from the sea, or in some cases, two century old creatures from the sea, closing it for a season doesn't help all that much. And yet that's a common policy. Oh, we'll just close it down for a while.
Jason Heaton Yeah. I mean, gosh, this brings to mind a lot of different things, but I, one thing that strikes me is I think it was Michael Pollan's book, The Omnivore's Dilemma. And I think it was in that book and early in the book, and he talks about how the face of agriculture has changed and how in the 1800s, for instance, and earlier you, you got your food from, a farmer or two that served a small town or a local community.
Dr. Sylvia Earle And you always have a garden of your own if you have any space at all.
Jason Heaton And, and, and I think that, you know, obviously that's changed and it's the same with, with, um, marine life and the seafood industry and how it's become an industry ship, you know, you, you, they fly in things from all over the next day for sushi bars in New York, from Japan, et cetera. And, And nothing's local, you know, nobody's buying from their farmer. That's why I love farmer's markets and things like that. But it's more of a novelty. It's not, it's not the regular thing anymore.
Dr. Sylvia Earle Mainstream.
Jason Heaton But it makes me, it makes me also think that it's probably less realistic to try to think of, I don't want to say shutting down the fishing industry or the seafood industry or whatever you want to call it, because there will always be countries, small communities, countries, coastal communities that rely on fishing as a profession. And seafood or fish as food, rather. Let's say an island nation, you know, traditional villages, coastal towns in developing countries, things like this. So I guess trying to get those more local, right, is a solution, right?
Dr. Sylvia Earle But it was possible to take some when most of the ocean was protected by its inaccessibility. There's no part of the ocean that is not accessible today, one way or another. Much of the ocean is still protected by its inaccessibility, generally speaking. That is, although fishing has gone deeper and deeper and further and further, literally fishing fleets can, and mostly they do go everywhere on the globe, from the Arctic to the Antarctic, and deeper now operating thousands of meters below the surface. It used to be unrealistic. It's not unrealistic anymore. And when the price of fish goes up, it's, it's still makes economic sense, especially with subsidies and especially when the fish themselves are free. And when marketing the fish is, is assisted by a, taxpayer-supported agencies like NOAA, helping with the marketing, making the connections, really encouraging the taking of large quantities of ocean wildlife. One other transformative concept, which again it shouldn't be that hard because it's just true, is ocean life is wildlife. And to think of it otherwise, it is absurd. We have an awareness that biodiversity, wild animals and plants, the diversity of life is declining significantly. And that is bad news for us because we need the stability that these diverse, robust communities, whether they're forests or deserts or the deep sea, it's part of our life support system and takes all the components functioning to shape that big word that everybody should be wrapping their tongue around, and that's biogeochemistry, that the planet is not just a function of rocks and water. It's a function of living systems that act on the rocks and the water. It's biogeochemistry that shapes Earth as this blue miracle in a universe that is otherwise really unfriendly for the likes of us. Once President Obama made the remark that our highest priority must be to keep the world safe for our children. How do we maintain planetary security? Maintain fabric of life? The national parks were a great idea early in the 20th century, but they were put in the concept caught on because largely of the desire to maintain beautiful places for recreation, or because they were really respected as natural works of art that we didn't want to see destroyed. Now, national parks and protected areas, nature everywhere is taking on a serious new meaning. It's not a nice thing to do or kind of a luxurious thing to protect nature. It's vital. Our existence.
Unknown Yeah.
Dr. Sylvia Earle And when that finally reaches a critical mass of understanding, it'll be a lot easier for people to embrace land and sea, wildlife, wherever it is, with greater respect. And yeah, people will always eat wildlife from the land and they always will take some wildlife from the sea. But once it really is understood that our lives, our existence depends on maintaining the integrity of mostly the ocean, Because it's the ocean that really occupies most of the planet. Most of the living systems are ocean creatures, ocean systems. Yeah. And there's life where there is water on Earth. There's water without life, but no life without water. Where most of life is, is where most of the water is, and that's the ocean. It's 97% of Earth's water and about 97% of the biosphere, but we treat Life in the ocean is seafood. We do that term. We don't have an equivalent term for land food.
Jason Heaton Yeah. Right. Yeah. It would be the equivalent of, of just randomly going to the nearby park. And if you see a wild Turkey or even a Peregrine Falcon or a raccoon, you'd just be rounding it up and hauling it into your truck and taking it home.
Dr. Sylvia Earle And yeah. Yeah. Well, some of that still goes on. Yeah, there are hunters. They're not so many commercial hunters. I mean, commercial in terms of scale, there are paid hunters. It really and it's it's a sport. In fact, prizes are given for killing big cats. Oh, yeah. America. Some of this is. Off line, if you will, it's not legal, but it is legal to kill big wild animals still. bear hunts. I mean, it's disgraceful, I think. Well, it's a disgraceful period, but we're evolving as a species. As we really understand, people change their ways. We changed our way rather dramatically in 2020, but we understood that our lives were on the line. True, yeah. Maybe when we understand that climate puts our lives on the line and we need the fabric of life that makes Earth habitable. And the new understanding about follow the carbon, where is the carbon? Carbon dioxide absorbed by trees, carbon dioxide absorbed by plants and held in the soil. But the heavy lifting is out there in the ocean. Carbon dioxide absorbed by those miniature forests of phytoplankton, as well as kelp forests and seagrass meadows and mangroves and marshes. But all that carbon then goes into where? Into the zooplankton, into the fish, into the shrimp. The new term for it is blue carbon. It's an old process, but it's a newly understood concept that protecting fish in the sea is comparable to protecting the carbon on the land. Interesting. ... which we keep in the ocean. It's our contribution to holding the planet steady. We should do everything we can to reduce the emission of carbon through burning of fossil fuels and the burning of forests. But by taking fish out of the ocean, we're burning them too, clear-cutting the fish. I mean, when they are eaten, what carbon turns to carbon dioxide essentially and is released into the atmosphere. We burn it as energy.
Jason Heaton I've long been a fan of the kind of the 1950s and 60s space race, but also how it seemed to also sort of compete for attention in the era in which you were starting to get involved with undersea living and things like this. And there's always been this, sort of competition between space travel and space exploration and undersea exploration. It's, it's not a actual competition, but it always seems like space always wins. And I feel like we're seeing that again. I think you're seeing Jeff Bezos and Branson, you know, jetting off and everybody's talking about colonizing Mars. And I'm thinking, why would you bother colonizing this planet? That's never going to be hospitable and create a bubble to live in and try to figure out how to create oxygen and water and all the money and effort that's being spent to look into those solutions, why isn't that being better spent on saving the oceans, exploring the oceans? The oceans are as alien and interesting as anything you're going to find in outer space. More interesting. Why do you think people are just so much more drawn to colonizing Mars and space travel than just the ocean?
Dr. Sylvia Earle I wish I had an answer for that question. I think we've taken the ocean for granted. We think of it as not extraordinary. Everybody knows that the ocean is there filled with fish and we really don't respect life in the ocean for anything more than commodities. Even whales. Now we know how remarkable whales are with their closely knit societies. They have language. They have intergenerational communication in terms of sharing knowledge over time. Nobody does that better than humans, that we have been sharing knowledge and advancing our civilization over thousands of years, that whales communicate. They don't have libraries. They don't have a place to put knowledge except to pass it along verbally. Imagine where we would be if we didn't have a means to write things down and store it in a way that anybody could access it over time. It is a puzzle that While we're trying so hard to figure out how we might be able to terraform Mars, we were ironically doing everything in our power it would seem to marziporm Earth. We're creating an atmosphere that is richer in carbon dioxide. What's the atmosphere of Mars? It's mostly carbon dioxide. So true. Yeah. We're destroying the water systems, land and sea. Where's the water on Mars? We need to, you know, so such a peculiar attribute of humans that we are, we fail to see what's obvious.
Jason Heaton The irony of, of using undersea habitation as a training ground, as it has been using Aquarius and other places for astronauts to live in space. It's, it just strikes me as so, Strange. And every time I go diving, I think to myself, this is the most exotic alien thing I will ever do. It's the most exciting thing anybody can do. Even the most basic discover scuba dive that you do in 30 feet of water, you have your life support on your back, alien creatures, like anybody can go try this and be fascinated.
Dr. Sylvia Earle When you think like the planet who's alien.
Unknown Yeah.
Dr. Sylvia Earle Yeah. We were. Yeah. Most of life on earth. the greatest diversity, the greatest abundance lives in an aquatic realm. We're the odd ones. We're the extreme creatures because we live in an atmosphere that is not water. I mean, there is some water in our air, of course, clouds, and we carry water around with us. All living things have water. All living things have carbon. There's some basic concepts that if we can just get the public at large to integrate in their thinking, just the basic knowledge of how the world functions and what a miracle it is that we're here at all, that we exist at all, that maybe we'll have greater respect for every living thing. And you're right, going underwater, you see things you don't see anywhere else. Most of the big divisions of life great categories of animals and microbes and plants. They're essentially all have some representation in the sea. And there may be some microbial exceptions that are live in atmospheric circumstance, but generally speaking, the whole spectrum, it's like diving into the history of life itself to dive into the ocean. And only about 15 of those categories phyla of animals occur in all of the land put together. Most people, when they think animal, they think vertebrate, cats, dogs. Maybe they remember that turtles and frogs are vertebrates, creatures with a backbone. They might even remember that fish are vertebrates with a backbone. But when you think most of life on earth, they don't have a backbone. You don't. Jellyfish, where's the backbone? Starfish, You can look and look with no backbone. The other characteristics that make vertebrates what they are. But the other miracle is that all life, land and sea, all life, there's a common recipe. The chemistry of life is so basically similar, whether you're talking about a bacterium or an elephant or a bird or whatever it is, a jellyfish. The chemistry of life follows this basic set of principles. And even when you get to the genetics, the genetic makeup, there's a lot, even though every individual is different, every human, everybody has a face, everybody has a personality. We're tall, we're short, we're fat, we're skinny, we're whatever we are. And so are every, so is every fish, every tree, you know, so is everything that is living today or ever has lived or ever will live, but all share this basic chemistry, which is in itself such a big thought, but it's, again, it's just true.
Jason Heaton Well, I think that this romance of space travel versus a lack of romance with undersea exploration, I often think to myself, If you could get more people trying diving or spending more time in water or around water, whether it's sailing, snorkeling, it's what was Cousteau's quote, you protect what you love, you know? And I think because Rolex helped organize this, uh, this talk, it makes me think back to when I first started, um, taking interest in wristwatches and I bought a diving watch, but I didn't know how to dive and, I thought if I wear this watch, I really need to learn how to dive because otherwise I'm a bit of a poser, you know? So I learned how to dive and it led to a whole career. I now want my niche is writing about dive watches and taking them diving. And my wife takes the photos. Kermit. No, the Kermit, the Submariner. Yeah. Not, not your date just this time. And, and I think to myself in, in a small way, writing articles about diving watches and showing them underwater is a bit nerdy and very niche. But if, if the people that read these stories take interest in, in that, and if a few of them decide they want to start diving, then it takes my clue to get underwater. And then they start saying, Oh, Jason did an interview with Sylvia Earl. Let's see what she's all about. Oh, you know, I feel like just getting more people interested in the ocean will then naturally start to Draw interest. It's a big, big task, of course.
Dr. Sylvia Earle I often say no child left dry. Yeah. But every, it should be true of every everybody.
Unknown Yeah. Yeah.
Jason Heaton Yeah. Cause it's so fascinating and you do, you do take interest. You do start to love for heaven's sake. Yeah. There was a recent film. Um, our, I think we spoke about him, uh, when we met in Mexico, uh, Will Steger, there was a recent documentary about his life called after Antarctica. And it's been making the rounds of the film festivals. And it really reminded me of a more terrestrial version of Mission Blue, the movie about your life. Have you seen that film yet? I have not.
Dr. Sylvia Earle It's tremendous. Will was the very first National Geographic explorer in residence. I was the third. In between was Johann Reinhardt, who studied the Ice Maiden. in Peru. Okay. And since then there have been quite an amazing list of explorers in residence.
Jason Heaton I have such respect for Will and I kind of consider you and Will kind of a couple of heroes of mine and I think what's been interesting about watching your two careers and backgrounds is that You both, and correct me if I'm wrong, well, I guess you came from a science background as well, but this, this idea of exploring, you know, going to the deepest parts of the ocean for him, it's going to the poles, turning that into a very conservation minded approach. And nowadays he's very passionate about global warming and he's seen the effects of global warming in Antarctica, just as you have spent so much time in the ocean and are, have now turned to what you're doing now.
Dr. Sylvia Earle And once you know, you can't, unknown, and it drives me to really want to share the view and get people to be aware. It really is the key. You might know and not care, but you cannot care if you don't know. Right now, the knowledge is there. It's our superpower. I know what's going on. Imagine how smart whales are and dolphins and elephants. And we both met some smart fish, I'm sure. But they cannot know what even the kids of today know that could not be known even by the smartest human beings who were around when I was a kid. Nobody knew. But it's the knowledge that has been accumulating more rapidly the last half century or so than during any time in the past. And we're communicating more rapidly with technologies that enable us to talk like we're talking now, and to share the knowledge as quickly as it becomes known. The information about the pandemic, the virus, started on one side of the planet, and even before it reached the other side of the planet, people were on full alert. It's coming. We know it's coming. Be prepared. It's, I think, the best time to be a human being, actually, because of that capacity to understand what no one could see before. Or even if they could see it, they'd be pretty lonely. I mean, I feel pretty lonely as it is, but I also witnessed a scaling up of awareness going back to when President George W. Bush signed into law the Papua New Makua Kea Marine Reserve. It was the largest marine reserve on the planet, but that means that it was still a tiny fraction of one percent of the ocean was proactively protected. From that point to where we are now, it's been a fairly rapid increase. That is to say we now have about three percent, which is still not nearly where we must be if we are to reverse the planetary decline and with a particular reference to to the runaway climate change. Stabilizing climate means stabilizing nature and that means we've got to stop the killing as much as we can and really amp up the caring. Go back to our conversation about communities and local champions. We'll work however we can at whatever level is possible but It is vital that we connect with the people as close to where these areas are, the hope spots in the ocean, because they have enhanced power to do something about whatever the problems are. And half the world is high seas, more than the area beyond national jurisdiction. And a few nations with the capacity to get out beyond 200 miles into the high seas to exploit it for whatever reasons. For years ago, it was whaling would take people out to the high seas and beyond. And technically the waters around Antarctica are not owned by any one nation because Antarctica is not owned by any one nation. So it's international waters and top of the world. There's a chunk of the ocean that is high seas. if we can get nations to pull together. And that means communities that get it and understand we have to protect the ocean as if not just our livelihoods, but our lives depend on it. We might pull together regionally, but internationally around the high seas and to make it really cool to protect the ocean and to make it seem like you're not doing your part. Yeah. Or to say, Our our marine protected area is bigger than yours. You know, like you talked about the space race, the ocean race for greater degrees of protection. Right now, some of the small island nations are are ahead of the game in terms of percentages, like Palau is 80 percent of their exclusive economic zone. Wow. Well, Easter Island is not a nation unto itself. It's a part of governed by Chile. Chile as a nation has really stepped up there with about 40 percent. Easter Island is entirely protected, except for the local fishermen who use traditional means, not the upscale methods of GPS and using helicopters to find where the tuna are and things like traditional means, locally consumed. So they're their privilege, if you will, of taking for local consumption is protected. And because waters out 200 miles are protected, they'll probably have plenty. It's like keeping your basic endowment intact. You spin off a little bit, but you keep the basic principle intact and use the interest, if you will. If you scratch it a little bit and take a bit here and there, but protect most of it, chances are we can We can do that, but we can't do it now because it is in such trouble. And 90% of most of the big fish gone, every shrimp counts. And certainly when you think of how much has been lost so quickly that the bluefin tuna in the Pacific are down to about 3% since the 1970s. Wow. Wow. Mako sharks in the Atlantic, the shortfin Mako, I mean, if you can see even one, it's like fraction of 1%.
Jason Heaton You know, on the one hand you're, you, you, you said a while ago that this is the best time to be alive or the best, you know, best time in history to be alive or be a person or how you phrased it. But on the other hand, how do you maintain, do you consider yourself an optimist? I mean, do you, do you, do you see a trend that this will reverse and that you have faith in humankind that will turn the corner on this stuff eventually?
Dr. Sylvia Earle I mean, I could get really depressed and give up and say, as I have heard, some even CEOs of major companies who see the major decline, they see the problems coming around, and I've had conversations with them, some of them, and they say, look, it's hopeless. I'm going to enjoy myself. The kids will figure it out for themselves. I'm not going to worry about their future. I'm going to be concerned about the time I have. Great. If everyone felt that way, imagine where we'd be in the 21st century, going back through time, if everyone said, it's all about me. But the good news is people do care about the future for their kids. They want them to have a better life. And that is generally the case. We want to protect the future for the next generation. You care about your kids, your grandkids, and more and more people with great grandkids, and they can see the future through their eyes. We have to, those of us who do care, have to carry the burden for those who don't. It's getting to that level of positive, not just thinking, but acting. If you think it's impossible or if you don't care, it will be impossible because you do anything. You just give up. It is happening. It's just not happening quite fast enough to feel secure. Nobody talks about Climate change is a headline issue 20 years ago. There were some who got it, talk about it, but it was not in everyday conversations. It is now. Yeah, that's true.
Jason Heaton That's something to be optimistic about, I guess, is awareness.
Dr. Sylvia Earle When you use that awareness, that knowledge, and then put it to work, what can I do? What can I do individually about the choices I make, about the leaders we put into office who are making the rules on our behalf. Those who are concerned about the future and are taking action, not just about the future of business, but the future of business is totally at risk if we don't have a healthy environment. Somebody said you can't count your money if you're holding your breath. The air is precious. And where does it come from?
Jason Heaton Say, when was the, um, when was the last time you were able to, uh, to go diving?
Dr. Sylvia Earle During a bounce trip to the Azores.
Jason Heaton Oh, you did dive there. Okay.
Dr. Sylvia Earle Yeah. Right. Okay. It's a wonderful planet, a part of the planet. The Mid-Atlantic Ridge was not known when I was a child or when Rachel Carson wrote The Sea Around Us. In 1951, it was published. Think of the knowledge that has come about just in a single lifetime. Yeah. It's like a race. We're learning more faster than ever before, but we're losing more faster than ever before.
Unknown Yeah.
Dr. Sylvia Earle There, there, there is time. That is the good news. Not a lot that we, that the climate scientists are suggesting the next 10 years as the most about the amount of time that we have to seriously do what it takes to reverse decline before we reach those tipping points. that are really beyond our control to put back into some kind of harmony.
Jason Heaton The other ironically troubling piece of information I've come across in the past few years is, is the idea of, you know, everybody likes the idea of electric cars, but one thing I recently learned was that some of the minerals or is that the right word? I guess the minerals that are required to make the batteries and better batteries They're now finding that deep sea mining is, um, is an option is a viable option. And they're saying that, you know, scraping the, we're talking thousands and thousands of feet deep, scraping what they call these, um, nodules of rock that are mineral rich on the ocean floor. And it's become this bit of a race to do that. So the irony is of course, you're, they're saying, well, electric cars are the answer to global warming, you know, getting people off of fossil fuels, but then to get some of these minerals, they have to, scrape the bottom of the ocean and we don't have to do that at all.
Dr. Sylvia Earle That's a great illusion. It's marketing. It's, it's a marketing campaign that should be stopped. I mean the whole concept, it's disinformation, misinformation, claiming that there's not much down there to be destroyed. Well, diverse life, the rocks, manganese nodules themselves, they're not just dead stones, they're living rocks. you look at a coral reef, it looks like the corals are just some physical structure. No, they're alive. Yeah. These manganese nodules are alive with bacteria. They're growing. They've been growing for millions of years and they're still growing. So it's really on our, and they grow around something organic, like the ear bone of a fish or the tooth of a shark. of something that enables the bacteria to establish, and they extract from the surrounding seawater these materials that we find useful. It's nickel, cobalt, and an old suite of things. We call them manganese nodules because manganese is one of the elements that tends to be fairly abundant, but they're largely iron, and mining has been discussed since the late 1970s, and can they be extracted from the deep sea? Well, some of them are already being extracted, but it's a great cost, not only to get there in the first place, because they're mostly in significantly deep water, more than a couple of kilometers down for the most part, but some deeper, some somewhat less deep, but they're in the deep sea. And technically only about now have we been able to master the fine art of deploying bulldozer-like machinery in the deep sea to be able to plow the ocean floor, to scrape these living rocks. But the idea is to then crush them, extract what we currently want and discard the rest and one of the lines from some of those who the mining interests say, we'll just take what we want and we'll put the rest back. So no harm done. It's like saying, we're just going to crush New York city and take out the fireplugs and the taxi cabs and we'll put it back. Right. Yeah. Right. So you crushed wall street, you've crushed the museums, you crushed the people.
Unknown Yeah.
Dr. Sylvia Earle And do we need those minerals for batteries? The current state of the art batteries, lithium is a product of metal that is widespread in widespread use. And there are sources on the land. But what's the best source? The minerals already extracted. We need to stop this habit of thinking that we need to continue carving up the earth constantly to get what they call virgin material, new material constantly. when we have already destroyed big chunks of the planet to get at these minerals. And much of it is in a more distilled form, sitting in landfills all over the world. We should find them first. Yeah, true. And we should make it really easy to get into the habit of recycling your batteries, recycling your cell phones, instead of just tossing them away. Take responsibility, make sure that they are not wasted. I think of that great film Avatar that James Cameron produced. You might remember the bad guys were after unobtainium.
Unknown Right.
Dr. Sylvia Earle Yeah. Under the tree of life. And they were bent on just destroying the living forest and the culture of the people to get to the unobtainium for their what they thought of as their needs. Yeah. We come from a terrestrial place and we think that we own a planet and that we've run roughshod over all other forms of life throughout our history. It's only now that we're beginning to understand that we need other forms of life. We need nature. We need a system that is working in our favor. in a parallel course to this continued mindset of we must continue taking, taking, taking, consuming nature to foster our prosperity, our wealth, our habits, whatever it is. There's this other race of knowledge that we have to change. We have to respect nature. We have to protect the old growth forests. We must not let that, those assets, but we must look at all of nature more as a library than as a free, a bank of free goods, a place where we just pick stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Not consequences. Yeah. That used to be the way we thought about whales, about trees, about fish. We got to get those trees out of the way so we can plant our city there or to plant tobacco or to plant corn or to plant whatever we want. And without respecting the gopher tortoises that lived in peace until we came along and burrowed in the ground with their whole communities of life that really took advantage of the big tortoises that made their underground passages and shared space with dozens of other organisms. Or to think about a tree that is home, not just for the tree itself, but for countless creatures, little furry things and birds and insects. We think that we own everything. And now we're understanding that we're just a part of a system that doesn't need us, but we need them.
Jason Heaton Yeah. Yeah. I mentioned the, that it was a dive watch that got me into diving and ocean conservation and that sort of thing. And for you, when, when you started diving, I'm guessing a watch was something that you wore as a, as an instrument, you know, to track your bottom time or experiments or things you were doing.
Dr. Sylvia Earle And I was, I was horrified once when a friend of mine, I saw this beautiful watch she was wearing. We were down about, you know, 60 feet underwater. Yeah.
Unknown Yeah.
Dr. Sylvia Earle She had this beautiful gold watch on.
Unknown Yeah.
Dr. Sylvia Earle And I looked at it, I pointed at it and I gave this horrified expression. You didn't dive with a watch that looked like that. You take a shower, you take off your watch. Yeah. She just got this smug look on her face. She had a Rolex. It was just, it was a beautiful watch that you could wear anywhere, but you could wear it underwater. Of course you could wear it in the shower. That's the thing about the Rolex. It wasn't designed to be a diving watch. It served the purpose. She just, she said, I just never take it off. I can take it anywhere.
Jason Heaton But it's interesting that then your relationship evolved from wearing something just anywhere and everywhere, um, as well as to, to time things and use while you're diving, um, into this relationship that you developed with the company itself is now this very symbiotic relationship. You represent them to a certain degree and then they support a mission blue.
Dr. Sylvia Earle Um, they support across the board. the good side of human society, if you will. Music, art, health, there are awards for enterprise, for solutions to problems, but they celebrate excellence, whether it's in tennis or in other sports. And it's exciting to be associated with an organization that is so beneficial to the human society, really. for so many worthy causes, much of it having to do with exploration. They partner with National Geographic, they partner with the Explorers Club, and they certainly have partnered with Mission Blue to help us to further exploration. Did I say conservation? Conservation heroes supported by Rolex. And they have done so for many decades. So it's a natural alliance.
Jason Heaton I think their watches too are such a symbol of sustainability, right? I mean, they're intergenerational. They last forever. They're wound by the movement of your body, unlike say an Apple watch or something that is disposable by and large. So it's a very fitting sort of symbol.
Dr. Sylvia Earle Yeah, right. More than that, They're true instruments.
Unknown Mm hmm.
Dr. Sylvia Earle You know, you really do. Yeah, I do. You do rely on it for measuring time underwater. Yeah, it's yeah, it's it's you need air, but you also need to measure how much time and it needs to be accurate. When I think watches didn't exist throughout most of human history. Yeah. Memories of those who over time really began to figure out how to effectively measure it and now to carry a sophisticated instrument on my arm is really such a gift. Rolex has worked with me and National Geographic to support a new book called Ocean of Global Odyssey that is coming out in November. Make sure you get one because there's a big chunk, a big part of it is about the history of Ocean exploration, diving. Oh, amazing. It starts with talking about the history of the ocean itself. And then the big section in the middle is about life in the ocean, how extraordinary it is. And then the final piece is about our relationship to the ocean and things such as climate and pollution and marine protected areas. Every chapter features a hope spot.
Jason Heaton Wow. Is that being published through Mission Blue or is that a Rolex produced project or? National Geographic. No, no National Geographic. Okay. Well, uh, Sylvia, I don't want to, you know, take up more of your time. This was a wonderful hour and, uh, you know, just so fun to catch up with you again and, and I'm so happy to see you and yeah, this is fantastic.
Dr. Sylvia Earle Or the Azor. I would love to. There's 140 Hope Spots now. So we have a big choice of places to go splash around and maybe we can go to a place It needs to be a hope spot that hasn't yet been.
Jason Heaton Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, my, um, my wife is from Sri Lanka and, um, so we, uh, we try to dive there whenever we go. And it's always interesting to see the ups and downs of, of the marine ecosystem whenever we're there. Cause we try to dive all around the different coastlines. Um, I don't know if you have any hope spots in that part of the world, maybe the Maldives or something.
Dr. Sylvia Earle And the, We are planning to, we were planning an expedition before COVID, you know what? Yeah. But we will go back largely, well, the whole system, but it's a favorite place for blue whales. Yes. So we have a researcher who really wants to go there and in the name of Hope Spot and hope for the whales and hope for Oh, that's great.
Jason Heaton Yeah. Yeah. There's, um, Asha DeVos is, is a well-known marine biologist who's lives there and she's been a real, I think she's a National Geographic, uh, maybe emerging explorer or something. She's quite well known there, but, uh, yeah, it's a lovely place. So maybe, maybe we'll have to meet there and dive sometime. Maybe we should have a little talk with Rolex. I will do that. Yeah. You, you do too, please. You have more pull than I do. That's great. All right. Well, back to your goats and your dog and your garden and, uh, have a wonderful evening. All right. Well, I hope, uh, hope everyone enjoyed that, that chat as much as, uh, as much as we did. And as much as I did, uh, talking to Sylvia again, you know, a couple of years ago, um, she, she's just such a, an inspiring person, I think not only for her accomplishments and kind of her, her legendary, um, exploits, but, um, she's just an inspiring person. She, she remains remarkably optimistic and upbeat. And like Don Walsh at 91, Sylvia is now, gosh, I think she's 86 or 87 currently, and she's still active. She's still diving. She's still traveling the world. She's still, you know, championing the oceans, uh, and inspiring people. And, uh, you know, you, you can just hear it when you, when you listen to her and, um, such a privilege to, to, to chat with, uh, with Sylvia Earl. So thanks a lot, Sylvia, for, uh, for joining us on the great NATO and much belated.
James Yeah, I'm glad we were able to put that tape to some use and hopefully we could have Sylvie on for a proper chat someday. It feels like something would be good to do on the back of a dive boat or... Yeah, right. Maybe someday in the future that'd be a fun one, but she's such a champion and it was a treat to have her on the show, of course. Yeah. All right, looks like a nice long episode. How about we jump into some final notes?
Jason Heaton Yeah, I think you should go first. Yours is a perfect follow-up to that chat.
James Yeah, mine is actually just the documentary that was produced for Netflix about Dr. Earl's life. Uh, it's called mission blue. It came out in 2014. I figured that's long enough now, nine years. I thought for sure it was about three or four years old, but it's been around nine years. So there's a chance that some of you haven't seen it. Didn't know it was about certainly predates TGN. So it's called mission blue. It gives you a really fun kind of look at her life in the water and her focus on ocean conservation and all the things that she's experienced. So it's a little bit of a background, a bio, and then a lot about kind of the current focus of her work, which continues nine years later, which is remarkable to what Jason was talking about just a moment ago. So I included the trailer from YouTube in the show notes, but the documentary is still on Netflix and it's absolutely worth a watch.
Jason Heaton That's a great choice and a movie that I remember seeing back then. And it was kind of a good introduction to Sylvie Earle. I had known of her, but the movie really goes into kind of her life and in a very balanced and interesting way. So that's a great pick. For sure. What have you got? Mine is also, um, ocean related, uh, fittingly. And, uh, it's from our, our faithful resource, the Patagonia YouTube channel. They, they produce some great kind of short documentary style films. And this one is called daughter of the sea sisterhood in the sea. And, uh, it's about a little less than 20 minutes long. Um, if you're familiar with, uh, and I feel like there've been, there's been kind of an uptick in, in stories and interest in, I believe it's pronounced Hain-yeo or Hain-yeo, the kind of the diving women, the traditional diving women of South Korea off of Jeju Island. These are women that free dive for, I believe it's abalone and, you know, different forms of sea life that they harvest. And a lot of these women are quite old and have been doing it all their lives, but it's a bit of a dying art. Uh, and this movie is about a younger woman who kind of had a more traditional career path in Seoul, South Korea. Um, but she decides at some point to kind of go and join the Hanyo, uh, and, and take up diving, uh, in kind of, uh, following the tradition of, of her ancestors. And, uh, it, it's just an inspiring story, beautifully shot. Um, I've always been fascinated with this, this. subculture, if you will. Um, you know, in Japan, I know that there's another group of women divers called the Ama that, that famously kind of dove for pearls. And, uh, and this is kind of that same sort of tradition using very rudimentary diving gear, you know, big old oval masks and small fins and rubber wetsuits. And, you know, they're diving 30, 40 feet underwater to, to harvest things. And, um, so it's a, it's a great story, not only about the diving and this traditional craft that these people practice, but also, um, it's a nice sort of look at, uh, uh, this woman's, um, struggles with, with some mental health and depression and how she overcame it by, by taking up this, this discipline and this activity. So, um, hats off again to, to Patagonia films for, for yet another great, great film. And it seemed like kind of a fitting followup to, uh, to Sylvia Earl.
James Totally. I think that's a great pick and you know what, this is a fun episode to finally have online. Don was kind of our inspiration to pull the last tape with Dr. Sylvia Earle, and I really hope that all of you love it. As always, thank you so much for listening. If you want to subscribe to the show notes, get into the comments for each episode, or consider supporting the show directly, and maybe even grab yourself a new TGN signed NATO, please visit TheGreyNATO.com. Music throughout is Siesta by Jazzar via the Free Music Archive.
Jason Heaton And we leave you with this quote from Dr. Sylvia Earle, who said, knowing is the key to caring, And with caring, there is hope that people will be motivated to take positive actions. They might not care even if they know, but they can't care if they're unaware.