The Grey NATO – 218 – Crossing The Arctic Ocean With Børge Ousland

Published on Thu, 01 Dec 2022 06:00:00 -0500

Synopsis

The podcast hosts Jason and James have a fascinating conversation with renowned Norwegian polar explorer Borge Ousland. Borge shares his experiences from his groundbreaking expeditions, including being the first person to complete solo and unassisted journeys to the North Pole and across Antarctica. He discusses the mental and physical challenges of these extreme endeavors, the evolution of equipment and technology over the years, and the impact of climate change on the Arctic region. Borge also talks about his recent collaboration with watchmaker Ulysse Nardin to test their Arctic Night Diver watch during one of his expeditions.

The hosts and Borge explore the inspiration behind his adventures, drawing from the legacies of pioneering explorers like Amundsen and Nansen. Borge provides insights into the meticulous preparation required, problem-solving in harsh conditions, and the profound appreciation for life's small comforts that emerges from these extraordinary experiences.

Transcript

Speaker
James Hello and welcome to another episode of the Graynado. It's a loose discussion of travel, adventure, diving, driving gear, and most certainly watches. This is episode 218 and it's proudly brought to you by the ever-growing TGN supporter crew. We thank you all so much for your continued support and if you're listening and would like to support the show, please visit thegraynado.com for more details. Jason, how are we doing?
Jason I'm doing pretty well. It's a wintry day. I'm looking out the window and we've got a lot of snow falling very quickly. Uh, that's going to pile up. It's kind of a, I guess, fitting for today's a guest and topic. Oh yeah. Yeah. We had a, we had the Thanksgiving holiday, uh, last Thursday and then kind of a long weekend that was, that was quiet and pleasant just to spend it with the family. And, and here we are. I mean, actually I spent a good part of the weekend kind of perusing our newly launched Slack community, the TGN Slack community, that response has been incredible.
James Yeah, it really has. I didn't super know what to expect in terms of enrollment. We, you know, sent the email out very late Wednesday night. So I figured it would be kind of slow because it was a holiday weekend. People kind of trickle into the email, that sort of thing. And that really wasn't the case. So we're pushing the better part of 500 people in there from all over the world. Uh, we're getting the craziest wrist shots and some great adventure chat, the driving stuff, like the cars, man.
Jason Yeah.
James The cars are wild. There's some great stuff. I'm having an absolute blast. If you got the email and you haven't bothered signing up for the Slack, if you think this might be interesting, it's now functioning like a watch forum. It doesn't even feel like a Slack so much. At this point, we've got a handful of channels. We're adding more as needed. Jason and I are doing the admin stuff. To that note about me doing the admin stuff, the link in the email that we sent out was expired because I didn't realize you could only have one link going at a time for Slack. So if you go to your email and click that link, you'll get an error. But if you go to the Substack version of that email, so click on the email itself to view it in Substack. In the comments, there's a new link and that'll get you in. If you're listening to this and any of that sounds too difficult, just send me an email at thegreatnadoatgmail.com and I will send you the link. I've done it. A hundred times because I didn't realize that you couldn't have multiple versions of these links. So I made a mistake and I'll fix it by hand if I have to. It's been really, really cool to see everybody get in there and chat about various topics. All the normal stuff from the show is kind of being represented, but I kind of thought like, I don't know, Jason, what do you think? Like a hundred people maybe?
Jason Yeah. And I've had to, I've had to refresh my memory about forum and sort of social media discipline because I had it's easy to kind of get in there and sort of get addicted and just start clicking around and reading everything. And suddenly you look at your watch and it's like, Oh, an hour's gone by and I've just been like looking at people's car pictures and chatting about diving and travel. And it's, uh, it's been a lot of fun and I, I can't wait to see how it develops, um, as people kind of settle in and calm down a bit and sort of what shakes out. But it's been, it's been really fun and great to see some familiar faces in there from our Q and a episodes and kind of Instagram, et cetera. So super exciting.
James Yeah, I absolutely agree. And then you've got some news for straps, right? It's been a popular email and slack topic is when one of the strap sales is going to be opened up for the 20 and 22 mils.
Jason Yeah. So actually, as we're speaking here, the shop is open. We've opened it up for the purchase of additional TGN nylon straps for our annual subscribers. These are the same straps that you got when you signed up as an annual subscriber. The soft nylon Admiralty Gray. formerly ute nylon straps that you know and love. These are with the TGN signed buckle. So if you got one strap size when you signed up, this is your chance to buy the other. So if you got a 20 millimeter, you can get a 22 or vice versa, or, you know, get two or whatever you want. And we're pricing these at $25 plus shipping. But as we promised, we're kicking off a set discount for our annual subscribers to use in the shop going forward. So as we introduce future products and things in the shop, um, you can use this, uh, the same discount going forward and that'll be 15% off any TGN shop order. Uh, that'll come via a code that we'll send you. Um, so look out for that email. That'll be coming shortly if you haven't gotten it already. You know, we only have one product currently. I mean, other than those remaining extra large t-shirts that are in there. So if you feel like picking one of those up, go right ahead. But we do have some exciting stuff coming in the pipeline for 2023 that we're excited to offer. If you're an annual subscriber, just keep an eye out for that. Email with the details about the strap order and the discount code. And if you have any issues or questions, you can drop us a note at the gray, nato at gmail.com. You know, one more thing. I have a feeling that we're, we might run out of straps depending on the demand here fairly quickly. Although I do have a few more on order, not a few more, a couple hundred more on order for the end of December. So if the shop shows sold out, um, just, uh, rest assured that we'll be restocking uh, as we go and we'll notify you on the show and potentially through emails going forward. So just be patient with us. So that's the exciting news from the shop.
James Absolutely. Yeah. So you said you had a good, good sort of Thanksgiving with the fam, which is nice. And then I saw that you finally had to, uh, tuck the land Rover away for winter.
Jason Yeah. The, the series three, the old one, um, I used to drive in the winter, but you know, since we got the defender, the ladder is, is better suited for winter driving. It's um, it's, it's got, decent heat and, and defrosting abilities. And, uh, I put those, those, uh, kind of makeshift aftermarket heated seat covers on. So, uh, I can get around in the winter, um, really well on that one. So I felt like it was a good idea to park up the series three for the winter, kind of minimize the salt and rust exposure on the undercarriage. So, uh, a neighbor of ours has a extra parking spot in their driveway and graciously offered to. to let it live there for a few months. And so I aired up the tires and topped off the fluids and the fuel and, and put a cover over it and it'll sit there probably until March or April, uh, when it comes out. And, you know, I, I sort of did that last year, although it was in the shop for a number of months, but I don't even disconnect the battery. I mean, there's no electronic systems that drain it or anything like that. So it just, it fires right up like the first or second turn every, every spring. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. And what about you? What, uh, what have you been up to over the past few days?
James Actually had a chance to get, just be a little bit, not lazy, but like not, uh, not entirely focused on, on work, you know, with American Thanksgiving, largely taking over and shutting down the, the hood Inky office. We had a couple of quiet days here, Thursday and Friday, and kind of caught up on some, some other work that was going on and, and was kind of just, you know, had been set aside for, busy times. And then other than that, just kind of hung out, watched, uh, watched my way through essay, ask rogue heroes, really, really enjoyed it. That show has no concept of a brake pedal. It's a, it's just full throttle the whole way, but I'm pretty excited for, uh, you know, for another season of that sometime in the future. I think we're pretty close to another season, the second season of slow horses, which would be great. So there's something about that. Yeah. Some pretty good TV starting to warm up for sure. So that's a, that's a plus. And then otherwise, just starting to put the earliest touches on a gift guide, which will be for next week's episode, for episode 219.
Jason Yeah, I need to do some research on that. I don't want to get caught at the last minute scrambling. I've got some ideas in mind, but that's always a fun one and a crowd favorite, so to speak.
James Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. I think it's a nice blend. We have an incredible Arctic explorer on today's episode chatting at length about what it is to essentially disconnect from the world for months at a time and essentially do the hardest thing I can imagine doing. Next week, we'll have just kind of our classic gift guide, which I don't know why it feels like it's been a while. Maybe there's a chance we didn't do one last winter, but that would surprise me. I just can't remember offhand, but it feels like a little while since we've done one, certainly, I guess, a year at least. And yeah, looking forward to that. Otherwise, not a ton going on, just staying in the grind and looking forward to it being December, which means at a certain point, we'll have some time off. We'll probably take the latter two weeks in December off from the show. So I wouldn't expect any episodes in the last two weeks of December and then we'll come back fresh early January.
Jason Right? Yeah. All right. Well, we've got a really cool episode coming up. Let's, uh, let's lead it off with, um, a quick wrist check, maybe some watch talk. Um, what do you have on?
James I'm still wearing the Mito. Yeah. This thing hasn't, uh, hasn't really left my wrist. I put my Apple watch on for a workout the other day. And even then I was like, nah, I would, I just you know, like I finished my workout and I went to, you know, go run an errand or something. And I switched back to the Mito. I'm, I'm just absolutely loving it. Oh yeah. How are you wearing it on a NATO or you've got it on? It's on a, an improperly sized gray NATO and it doesn't bother me one bit. I thought it might, the 20 versus 21 mil, but not so bad. I still think it'd be fun to do a 21 millimeter run of gray NATOs sometime in the future, but we'll have to figure that out once we kind of understand what the ordering looks like for the new kind of strap offering that starts the day this episode comes out. So yeah, definitely.
Jason Yeah. Speaking of the Apple watch ultra, I did get a notice that the oceanic plus app for the Apple watch ultra is now available in the app store. It was a, it was only in beta for a while there. And I had a chance to sit in on an overview of the app a couple of weeks ago with oceanic and, and the app looks great to kind of walk through the screens and, and kind of the, the companion phone app and what it does. And, um, I would say that it's certainly not groundbreaking. I mean, it does what, you know, you want your recreational dive computer to do, but it looks great. Typical, you know, great Apple app functionality. And, uh, and it should just make that watch even more full featured for, for people that are wanting to wear it, you know, 24 seven. Yeah. So pretty cool. Uh, as for me, I'm wearing the Omega Speedmaster Mark three, the blue dial giant block of chunk of steel. dangling off my wrist right now. And it's just, it's so fun. Every time I put something else on for a few days, I kind of get inspired to, uh, to throw this one back on. It's funny. Um, someone in our, our slack community suggested a movie to me, uh, kind of a holiday, you know, rom-com kind of, uh, a little bit cheesy film, but it was really fun. It's called the Noel diary and In it, there's an author who drives an old Series 3 Land Rover and then he's got this, what is supposed to be his father's vintage Speedmaster Mark II. And it's on a bracelet and you can, you know, see it very distinctive from a distance. And I saw that and immediately was like, all right, I'm going to pull out the Mark III. It's just, it's a fun watch. It's such a, just such a fun watch to wear.
James That's great. Yeah. Good pick. I saw you had like a knuckle duster photo. on Instagram.
Jason Yeah, I think it would serve very well as that. It looks like someone's used it as that too at some point.
James Some charts scoured up. Yeah. All right. You want to get to our main chat with our esteemed guest?
Jason Yeah, let's let's dive into this. I think this is a really exciting episode. It's one of those one of those episodes that will go down in our TGN archives is a really significant one. You know, we've we've done some amazing chats in the past with, you know, people like Nims Perja, Ben Saunders, Becky Schott, and a number of others, of course, Laurent Ballester, etc. And today we have the pleasure of talking to Borge Oesland, who is perhaps the most renowned and accomplished polar explorer. He's Norwegian. He has a background in commercial diving. And since the 1980s, he's focused almost entirely on doing polar expeditions, both in the Arctic and the Antarctic. He became the the first man to complete a solo and unaided journey to the North pole in 1994, no small feat. And then in 97 he made the first solo and unaided crossing of Antarctica from coast to coast. So that covered over 1800 miles from the edge of the Rana ice shelf to the edge of the Ross ice shelf. And when he did that, he was hauling like a 400 pound sled and he used a wind sail to help propel him on parts of the journey. But I think the key word in, in, what he does, a lot of what he does is the unaided part. This guy is self-sufficient. He does a number of his expeditions, uh, entirely alone, which is, uh, just a huge accomplishment. And then most recently in the winter of 2019, 2020, he teamed up with another incredible explorer, Mike Horn, um, who many of us know of and, uh, and they crossed the Arctic ocean in winter. So, um, pitch black, no sun using headlamps, They crossed from Canada over to the Norwegian side on the Arctic Ocean, which is, as we know, is not a continent. It's just a shifting frozen crust of ice over about, I think he said, 4,000 meters of water. So it's, it's an incredible story and, uh, and no one can tell it better, I think, than, than Borge himself. And he connected with us from his home in Oslo, Norway, and it was just such a thrill to talk to him. So without further ado, here's our talk with Borge Osland. Okay, well, Borge Oslund, thank you so much for joining us on The Grey Nado. How are things over in Norway today?
Borge Ousland Not too bad. Winter is slowly coming and today it's a good day, clear day. The first ski slopes have been made, so it's looking good for the winter.
Jason Are you based in Oslo or somewhere else?
James Yeah, based in Oslo. Do you have to travel far to ski out of Oslo?
Borge Ousland No, no. The ski slopes are, you know, from where I live, maybe 20 minutes to half an hour and then you're good. Not bad. Yeah, not bad, not bad. So at this time, you can go cross-country and the downhill slopes are open a little bit later. I think you can still downhill, but then you have to travel a little bit further up in the country. But for cross-country, which is kind of my sport, then it's close enough. Fantastic. And I have my kayak just outside here. I live close to the sea. Um, so, uh, so I spend a lot of time on the water and, and, um, that's what I like about those. So you can go in the woods and go skiing if you want, or you can go in, in the fjord. So last week I was out free diving.
Jason Oh, wow. My goodness. That sounds amazing. Yeah. Are there orcas, um, near where you free dive?
Borge Ousland No, I haven't seen any orcas here, but there was actually a walrus. No, you call it walrus. Walrus, yeah. There was a walrus here this summer. I think it must have been totally lost because it's far away from the Ice Age. But he was here the whole summer, around in the Oslofjord. Wow. But no orcas, unfortunately.
Jason You know, we're thrilled to have you with us. And just for a little bit of background for our listeners, you know, polar exploration and adventure is something that it's a very niche endeavor and field. And I wonder if you could maybe give a little bit of a background as to your own personal history in these sorts of exploits in the Arctic and the Antarctic and maybe some of the significant accomplishments that you've had.
Borge Ousland Yeah, I started out doing expeditions. The first trip was actually back in 1986. I crossed Greenland with two colleagues, diving colleagues. I was working as a diver in the North Sea back then. And we decided to cross Greenland. And I liked it and wanted to do more. And in 1990, we raised the bar and we skied and supported to the North Pole. And After that, well, I went on some other trips and then I started with solo expeditions in the mid-90s, went solo and unsupported to the North Pole and to the South Pole, solo and unsupported across Antarctica and also across the Arctic Ocean solo from Siberia to Canada. And then back to doing trips with others again, Patagonia, French Joseph Land, and winter trips to the North Pole. And the latest big trip I did was crossing the Arctic Ocean with my corn in 2019. But I was on a trip earlier this year as well, crossing Devon Island in northern Canada to get with a guy called Vincent Colliard.
Jason Okay. I'm curious. I've always been fascinated by the draw to these cold, dark places. And I know there's a Norwegian word, I believe I read, called polar hula. I think that's how it's pronounced. I read an essay by Randolph Fiennes, and I think he mentioned that at the beginning. And I think he called it an attraction to cold, dark places. Is that a phenomenon specifically in Norway, or can you explain that a little bit?
Borge Ousland Well, to be honest, I haven't heard that word. What do you call it? Polar hula?
Jason Hule? Yeah, polar hule? I don't know. Polar hole?
Borge Ousland No, I haven't heard that word, but perhaps that is a way for Norwegians, and I think also many others, to react with nature, or at least that's what I try to do, where sometimes being in a dark and cold place is where you broaden your horizon in a different way and it's more kind of more minimalistic, less disturbances, and maybe you discover other things by being in a dark and cold place. Who knows?
Jason Were you particularly inspired, say as a child, reading about some of the Norwegian heroes like Amundsen or Nansen. Was that, is that kind of part of, of a typical kind of Norwegian child's upbringing to read about these things? And did that inspire you? Did their, did their exploits inspire you?
Borge Ousland Yes. Well, at least when I grew up, I don't know how big part that plays in the school and growing up in these days. But when I grew up, it was definitely, Well, we read about Nansen and Amundsen and, you know, the big trips they did back in what is called the golden age of polar exploration, which was the late 1800s and the beginning of the 1900s. So I've always been inspired by them, but also other modern explorers like Will Steger, who is from where you guys are from, in the Minnesota area, and also Reinhold Messner and some of the modern explorers, but definitely Amundsen, Scott, Shackleton, Piri, and of all these, I think that Frithjof Nansen for me has been the biggest inspiration. And especially a trip he did from 1893 to 96, where he drifted across the Arctic Ocean with the polar ship Fram, and actually left Fran to try to reach the North Pole to get with another guy. They ended up on Franz Josef Land, where they had to spend the winter. That trip that these two guys did, I think that's the greatest polar expedition in history, at least in the Northern Hemisphere. In the South, you have Shackleton, but in the North, that trip really stands out as something special.
Jason Between the two ends of the Earth, North or South, do you have a preference or a a draw to one or the other more than the other?
Borge Ousland Yeah, I do. I have a special relationship to the North Pole. That's the most dynamic place that I can imagine. And that drifting ice of the North Pole, it's so intense and you have these huge ice blocks you have to fight your way across. Other times it opens up and you actually see the water. You're skiing on top of an ocean. It's at the North Pole is 4,000 meter deep water down to the seabed. So it's just a thin crust of ice that is moving around up there, moving with the wind and the currents. And you actually never wake up in the same place as you went to bed, you're always drifted somewhere. And you have the polar bears, which are fascinating animals. And at the same time, you have to be cautious and aware that they actually want to eat you. So it's a incredible place. You have to really see it and experience it, maybe to understand it. But, but so for me, the Merpol, I think is the favorite of the two poles.
James And I'm curious if you go back and you think about the first trip to Greenland in 1986, what lesson or what feeling comes to mind when you think back from, you know, that's, that's some years ago and obviously many, many trips ago, but I'm wondering what, what kind of was, was on, what remains on your mind from that first experience?
Borge Ousland Well, from the road trip, if I put myself back and the way the person and the experience I had back then, and someone said to me that, well, okay, you will probably ski solo across Antarctica or solo to the North Pole or skiing to North Pole in winter in a few years ahead in time, I would never have believed it. Doing things step by step, learning, becoming better. If you do something, a mistake, you know, I had, I think I have this ability to, to go back and ask myself, okay, what can I do better the next time? And so, and then gradually becoming better. And I think also that's become one of my driving forces, that curiosity to see, to try to understand, to try what is possible to do, you know, human endurance, physical and mental, and to master something difficult. I think that's been a big part of the motivation. And in addition to adventure, because the polar regions, when you are out there by yourself, you can't cheat. The nature is the boss out there and you just have to do the right thing. Otherwise, you won't make it.
Jason Obviously, there's a tremendous physical challenge here and a lot of preparation and training that you have to go through. But on the, on the mental side, when you look back at, let's say that those early trips you did leading up to, to what you've done more recently, how have you been able to prepare your mind or how have you changed over the years to deal with say fear or anxiety on these trips or loneliness when it comes to polar bears. I mean, that's not something that any of us really experience in our daily lives or the cold or just the fear of ice breaking up under your tent or how have you changed over the years in your ability to handle those things?
Borge Ousland Yeah, it's a good question. I think the way I have done it or learned to do it for myself is to turn the question in a way and understanding that, well, if you want to achieve something good in life or make something happen, you first of all have to say yes to the challenge. And secondly, you have to try to overcome your own fears. Nothing is ever just bad. Everything has also a positive side. And to me, the polar bear, it's really, really a great experience. Those big animals and how they're able to survive up there in the middle of the winter, finding food. It's truly amazing. So to meet those animals face to face, it's scary, but at the same time, it's also a great experience. So I always try to kind of turn the table in a way and look upon the positive side of the situation. And of course, knowing that, okay, this can be risky and then I just have to prepare. And I think I learned a lot from the years when I was diving, because that was before I started polar expeditions. I was a professional diver in the North Sea doing saturation diving down to several hundred feet, being in pressurized chambers for up to four weeks at the time. And there was a lot of accidents and things went wrong back in those days, still the pioneer times. And But we who worked as divers down there, we knew that the only one you really can trust, that's yourself. So I always looked upon safety as a personal responsibility. And when I do my polar expeditions, I try to isolate, okay, what can go wrong here? And then I prepare, I train for going, finding the best technique for getting up from the water if I go through the ice or Or, well, how should I deal with polymer? Well, instead of having a big, heavy rifle at the bottom of my sled, I have a revolver easily and readily on my harness. So it just takes a few seconds to get that weapon in position. So I always try to go into a dangerous situation and do it in a safe way through preparing and training for it before I leave, actually.
Jason Yeah, that's the sense I've gotten from From watching a few videos, um, I saw a video of your work with Neruna kind of refining some of their equipment that you take with you. And it's kind of a sense I get about polar explorers in general, um, as well as mountaineers and other exploits. But, uh, the idea of, of absolute, um, meticulous preparation and, and it seems like, with these, with these expeditions that you're doing, everything takes so much longer and everything. There's such a, an emphasis on the small details, um, the, the way a zipper works or, you know, being careful not to drop your glove or keep your gloves off for too long and things like this. Um, can you talk a little bit about some of the maybe lessons you've learned from, I don't want to call them mistakes,
Borge Ousland Well, yeah, there are obviously mistakes to be made. And that's how you learn and become better. That is learning the hard way. And I've always been interested in developing equipment and working on technical solutions to improve and to move faster or safer. So I started working on this. We made a suit with Noruna jacket, trousers and hats and mitts and all that. The complete battle dress, really. And we started that corporation nearly 20 years ago. And that suit was finished in 2019. So we put a lot of work into it. And it's really in the cold and in the wind you see what works and what doesn't work. In sunny calm weather, it doesn't matter what you wear basically. You need some bad weather and some storms to see the details and what works. Equipment for polar expeditions is very different from climbing or sailing because you have to make something that is specific to the task that you want to do to function in the cold and skiing and small details like going to the toilet or where you have your lunch for the day or your face mask ready? Where is the compass going to be? All these details go into the development and the technical issues of making such a suit.
Jason I always hear about how important lightweight equipment is and kind of looking at every gram that you're carrying. But then I was interested to read about your most recent Arctic Ocean crossing with Mike Horn about sheer number and weight of the batteries that you had to take along for your headlamps. I mean, you're totally reliant on your headlamps on a trip like that, aren't you? It was entirely dark for many weeks at a time.
Borge Ousland Yeah. On that trip, we wanted to cross the Arctic Ocean all the way from Alaska to Norway via the North Pole and sailing into the Arctic Ocean. And the only time of year you can do that is at the end of the summer. when the ice has melted enough to penetrate deep enough with the ship. But that means that most of that trip would have to be done in the winter, the skiing part. So we were on headlamps for two months on that expedition. And we carried 10 kilos of batteries, but that was not the main weight. That was the food and the fuel and all the other equipment we had to bring for three months. So our sleds weighted 190 kilos each. I guess you can calculate that into pounds somehow.
James Yeah. 420 pounds.
Borge Ousland Yeah. So it was so heavy and just to pull all the energy went into pulling that heavy sled forward. So even if there were two of us, it was also kind of a lonely trek simply because of the sled weight. You know, it was not, no energy to even speak. Yeah, so that was hard, but truly an amazing journey. And as you said, dependent on the light, without the light, we would not have been able to survive that trip simply because it was just completely dark when it was no moon. I couldn't see Mike, you know, if it was overcast and no moon, we were sitting next to each other on the sled. And if I turned off my light, I couldn't see him. That's how dark it was, you know, so we would never have survived without the headlamps. So we had two different systems in case one broke down. But luckily we managed to, like, have enough batteries and, and keep the lamps working all the way.
James Speaking about some of the gear, I'm curious, you know, you have this wide breadth and I know in your, in some of the talks I watched getting ready to chat with you, you talked about buying your first GPS unit. It was a fortune and it was big. Obviously, GPS has really changed in the last 30 years or so. But what about other pieces of gear has changed in a manner that has really changed the kind of quality of the work on these trips? Has there been other big generational leaps in jackets or gloves or headlamps, things like that?
Borge Ousland Yeah, absolutely. Headlamps, for sure. When I started expeditions, we were using this old style bulbs that sucked a lot of energy and the batteries were made of lead and super heavy and was not good in the cold at all. Now you have LED lamps and you have lithium batteries so that's one thing. And also the satellite phones, they started working in the polar regions in around 2000 when the Iridium system was launched. Before that we were only using HRF radios and you had to agree beforehand with someone that was going to listen at specific times at specific frequencies. So I, when I did my solo trek to the North Pole in 94, I had a big heavy radio and I had to, if I wanted to get in touch, I had to rig out a big antenna, 20 meter long antenna outside and And I speak at pre-agreed times at certain days a week. So it was a totally different ballgame, actually. And the first trip I did in 1986, we didn't even know about GPS. We used Sextant to navigate back in those days. So it has changed a lot, technically, with equipment and everything.
Jason That really puts in perspective and gives a new respect for what the explorers like Amundsen and Nansen were doing. I mean, you know, in terms of lights and things like that, it was just, their options were so much more limited.
Borge Ousland Yeah. And at the same time, it's good to have a foot in that world and to know also that that was also working actually. The equipment they had, that was also working. Yeah. Because it's a mistake to think that everything that is modern and high tech is the best ever. You know, some things that Inuits made 1,000 years ago could still be the best in certain fields and situations.
James I'm also really curious, like from a more of a mental standpoint versus the gear, when you finish one of these trips, be it a very long one or maybe a smaller one, are you relieved that it's over? Or does that relief last a few hours and you start to wish like you like you enjoyed the last three months and like I have to wonder because it's such a change of pace. Yeah, from let's say life with a house and heat and light and light switches and power and all this other stuff to this sort of very specific way of of going about and a trip. In my mind, it must be pretty difficult to feel one way about the end of it. You kind of must be very kind of split.
Borge Ousland Yeah, in one way. That's true. One of the big paradoxes on the big expedition is that everything you long for is soon going to happen. You're going to reach your goal and you will finally be able to open that fridge and take out that glass of milk. You can take off your clothes in the bathroom and take a shower. All these things, sitting on a chair, sleeping in a bed and not being afraid of the ice breaking up underneath your sleeping bag, small things like that. And then when you reach those things, then it's suddenly nothing more to long for. So it's a big paradox. And I feel that one of the things I've learned from these expeditions is that ability to also appreciate these small things that we may be able to take for granted. in my daily life, because if you can't do that, if you can't send some good thoughts to the guy that made the water heater that gives that warm shower in the morning, you will never be able to be completely satisfied. You're always wanting something more. So I think it's an old Chinese saying that keep your wishes simpler and you will be a happier man. I think Not just to live a minimalistic life all the time, but at least to reflect on it and think about that for a moment or two, and not just take everything for granted.
Jason I think that's valuable. Yeah, so true. You know, you've done multiple trips on your own, and then you've done several with partners. Doing it alone obviously comes with tremendous challenge, obviously, but so does doing it with another person. uh, how, how do you go about, I don't want to say selecting a partner, but, but how does that dynamic work? And, and I imagine disputes arise, um, and, and arguments and, and it's, it's just two of you in, in, in a very lonely place. I'm having to, to cooperate. Is that, is that a big challenge? What, which would you say is more challenging doing it with somebody or by yourself?
Borge Ousland I would say to do it by yourself is more challenging because Well, you have to be your own. The doctor and the patient are the same person anyway. And mentally, it is more challenging to be by yourself when you're with someone else. You have always someone to lean on. If you have a bad day, your friends will slap you on the back and say, hey, come on. Tomorrow will be better. You always have that possibility. But I think the most important A question to ask when you choose your partner is that, well, is this a guy that I can spend two months on a difficult trip with and still be friends when I get back home? But also to know that this partner will be able to take care of himself. Because some of these trips are just so hard that you can't pull the expedition mentally for two. And it's often when you have some crossroads, it's difficult decisions has to be made, you know, shall we give up or shall we continue? One want to give up, one want to continue. You need a partner that has the same understanding of the goal as yourself, the same driving force. Okay, this is where we're going. And we know that we won't get there If you don't cooperate, because you can be on a mountain trip with a friend and who is complaining all the time and you can still be good friends when you get back home, but you can't do that skiing two months in the dark to the North Pole. That's not possible. Then you need a partner that has the same mental drive as yourself.
Jason Did you and Mike, was this your first trip together? I don't remember.
Borge Ousland No, we've been, uh, uh, I met Mike first time in the mid, uh, nineties. We were, uh, had the same sponsor in Italy back in the day sector sports watches. If you've ever heard about them for sure. Oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we were a part of the SEC sector, no limits team. So we met in Italy, um, you know, a few times when there were some gatherings with sector. there. And then in 2006, I invited him on an expedition to the North Pole. And at that time, we actually skied from Russia to the North Pole during winter. And that is where we learned all the tricks in the book. Actually, that is where we prepared for what was going to come even we didn't know it back then. But that's where we learned to deal with the darkness and crossing open water in the winter, that intense cold you have that time of year and navigating by the stars and the moon and things like that. So we have done two big trips together.
Jason This most recent trip that you did, I guess it was in the winter of 2019, 2020, you had a couple of very challenging situations. Let's say Mike had some infection that you had to treat or help him treat. And then tell me about this, this, repair that you had to do to your sled. I saw a bit of it in a talk you did, but can you explain how you did that? You had to burn holes and stitch it together?
Borge Ousland Yeah. I think it was day 74, as far as I can recall. I opened my sled in the evening to take out my sleeping bag, and I saw that the sled was full of snow, and that snow had to come from somewhere. When I turned it, I saw that whole front was just completely broken. And when that happened, I must admit that I did get a little bit depressed, which is fine, you know, you can't, you can't be on top all the time. But sooner rather than later, you have to ask yourself the most important question and that is, okay, this has happened, but what do I do about it? And from that moment on, I was looking for solutions instead of focusing on the problem and why not try to repair it. And I did have this big heavy nail that I always bring with me on my expedition and finally I could use that and I warmed it up over the stove and managed to melt holes and I had some shoelaces and parachute cord that I took and weaved and sewed it all together and it worked. Yeah, it worked. So, yeah, you must never give up. I think that's the lesson learned from that trip. And also that, I think I mentioned it before, you know, that ability to turn a situation to your advantage and start to look for solutions at one stage instead of focusing too much on the problem.
James And the sleds are made out of carbon fiber?
Borge Ousland No, that was made out of plastic, but polyethylene plastic, which is super good in the cold. And that model has been used on polar, north pole expeditions before. And, you know, so it was a proven design and my sled didn't break, but mine broke. Yeah. Just bad luck.
Jason Could be. I'm curious about your, your, your, Diving history. You mentioned you were a commercial diver before you got into the polar exploration. What did that career do? Well, first of all, did you enjoy it, but also did it, it must've taught you some things about maybe living in extreme situations, dealing with the cold and, and working with a few other people in an isolated situation.
Borge Ousland Yeah. I started to work as a diver in 19, 82 first as a normal construction diver around the coast of Norway, you know, making ferry docks and sewage pipes and things like that. And then I went into the North Sea in 1984 and became what we call a saturation diver, which is just because we live inside pressurized chambers for a long period of time, and due to the depths, we have to spend a long time in there. So that is working with diving belts that we use to get down to the bottom and go out to do the job we have to do, which is mainly, I was working with welding pipelines for the last few years, both in the Norwegian and the UK sector of the North Sea. It's not really fun to be a deep-sea diver, but it's very exciting. I think that's the closest thing to being an astronaut on Earth. I guess also that's why I stayed there for 10 years before I started to do expeditions full-time. So it was very, very challenging and exciting and a bit adventurous as well. I think, you know, to be down there on the 150 meters, that's about how much is that?
Jason It's about almost 400 feet, I think.
Borge Ousland Yeah. Yeah. The deepest I've been is 360 meters is more than a thousand feet. So when you're that deep, that's too deep. That's too deep. That was a test time, but we frequently were Yeah, 100 meters, that's 300 feet. So we frequently work between 300 and 500 feet of seawater. And it's just dark all the time. And we're working with the big equipment. And you have that diving bell hanging there. And you know that up through that little hole in the bottom of that diving bell, that's the only way out of there. And that's a strange feeling. It's just like walking out from a spaceship, really. That's, I think, must be the same feeling.
Jason Wow. That reminds me of the film Pioneer. Have you seen that film?
Borge Ousland Yeah, absolutely.
Jason Yeah, yeah, yeah. That must have been about your era, that setting of that movie. Yeah.
James Borga, I'm interested. What was your introduction to diving? How did you get started?
Borge Ousland I also I've been diving all my life really and since I was a small kid I was snorkeling around in the Oslofjordur and I got my sports diving license when I was, the day I was 16. I did a course and when I was 15, but I was too young to get the paper, the certificate, so that came in the post on my 16th birthday. So I always liked the water and diving and I've been I'm coming from a sailing family, so we were always on the sea. And then I'd been traveling and didn't know what to do after school. And so I was traveling around in Europe. And when I got back home, there were some guys working as divers in the ferry dock where I grew up. And I went there and I didn't have a job. So I asked if they needed a hand. And they said, well, yeah, we need a hand. And the next day I was in the water diving. So that's how it started in 1982.
Jason Speaking of open water, I'm imagining you've seen the effects of climate change in the Arctic Ocean. How much longer will people be able to do the type of expedition that you and Mike did? It seems like the days are getting shorter for that.
Borge Ousland Yeah, that's a super good question. Actually, you know, polar exploration has always been about being first, but maybe this trip with Mike could easily be the last. And I've really seen the changes from the first trip I did on the Polar Ocean in 1990 until now recently and how much this has changed. It's dramatic and it's scary. Back then the ice was three to four meter thick and it's just a totally different landscape. Now it's young ice, one to two meters. It's also been reduced a lot. That's why we were able to sail so far into the polar ocean in 2019. So in the Arctic, that's really where you see the changes happening here and now. And the worst is not just the sea ice, but also the ice caps, the glaciers are melting fast. And we all know that a melting glacier will end up in the sea, contributing to sea level rise. So I'm not so positive about traditional polar expeditions anymore.
Jason That kind of provides sort of a good segue into the work that you've done not only with Neruna, but then they've done this collaboration with Ulysse Nardin. You worked with Sector years ago, now you've sort of come full circle with another watch brand. We're both big fans of that watch. Can you tell us a little bit about that project?
Borge Ousland Yeah, being a keen sailor since I was a kid more or less and also a diver, as you know, to own an Ulysse Nardin has been a long time dream for me. So when this opportunity came to test out this one of a kind piece earlier this year, you know, for me that was like a dream come coming true. And Ulysse Nardin and Lorena, they made a diver's watch that was made in 29 pieces. And I took one of them with me on the last trip I did across Devon Island and tested it out in all kinds of harsh, hard conditions. And so, so for me, that was just like a dream coming true to, to have that piece and to test it out. And I can assure that it did, it stood up to my expectations.
Jason That's good to hear. Yeah. That's that's a pretty extreme environment to test a mechanical watch. Wow.
Borge Ousland Yeah, because one thing is the mechanical part. I need a watch that doesn't stop because I'm running out of battery because I used to watch all the time to navigate. I need to know my bearings with the time to see where the sun is and to have the right longitude to know where north and south is exactly. And so I I often just use the sun and the watch for navigation, actually. And that watch, you can actually see what time it is. Some watches you can't really see what time it is, but that watch really shows you what time it is. So that's made for expeditions and hard work, for sure.
Jason I'm curious, how are your digits? How are your fingers and toes? Have you struggled with that over the years? Have you had
Borge Ousland Well, they're all there. But yeah, they're all there. All ten.
Jason Yeah. What's your secret to that? What's your glove and mitten strategy?
Borge Ousland Well, the secret to that, I think, for the feet is to have two sizes bigger boots, so you have room for extra insoles and extra woolen socks. And for the mitts, we made a new mitt system with Norana now, which is part of the same dress at the Svalbard collection. And that consists actually of three different mitts. So one is the woolen inner mitt, and then it's a wind stopper outside the woolen mitt, and on top of that, a Gore-Tex mitt. And they're extra long, too. They all go almost all the way up to the elbow. So to protect, especially to remember to have a long and big enough close. It's all about adding insulation and also to cover that gap here. What do you call that area between your hand and your arm? The wrist. The wrist, yeah, to cover the wrist because a lot of the mitts are too short. They're just too short. So you get that air, the drain of heat and the cold air coming in there and you have your arteries there to your hand. So you need to cover that gap.
James I'm interested if that gap is an issue when you have the Arctic Night Diver, the UN, is that over the sleeve of your jacket?
Borge Ousland No, I keep it close to my wrist, but it does have a synthetic wristband, metal, which is made of, I think it's made of recycled fishing nets actually, that wristband, but you need it close to your body. I think it was, Wasn't it Umura who had a Rolex watch that stopped working because it got too cold and he had to switch it for a cycle?
James It's definitely possible. Oh, I think you're right. Yeah. Yeah. Because out on your sleeve, it wouldn't get any body heat.
Borge Ousland Yeah. Yeah. But that's also the good thing about the long, big mitt that it's easy to take it off and see what time it is and pull that mitt on again. So I, I do that all the time.
Jason Well, Borge, we're about at the end of our time here, but I wanted to ask, what's next for you? Your Arctic Ocean crossing was obviously a huge trip in your history and in history in general. Where do you go from here? What's next? And what's the future of polar exploration in general?
Borge Ousland Well, for me, I have this project together with Vincent Colliard, the Ice Legacy Project, where we want to cross the 20 biggest ice caps in the world. You know, most of my trip has nothing to do with climate change specifically. It's more the adventure of it. But this ice legacy project is strongly linked to what's happening with those big ice caps in the world. And we want to somehow to try to communicate what is happening with these ice caps and also tell the world how important ice and snow has been and still are for life on the planet. So this year we crossed Devon ice cap and we've done about 10 of the 20. So, so I think I see that's going to take me another 10 years or so to cross the last 10. So that will keep me going and keep me in shape. It's good to have some plans.
Jason Yeah, definitely. And how can we, uh, how can we follow your exploits? What's the best way to kind of follow along?
Borge Ousland One thing is obviously the Instagram, but also the ice legacy.org.org. and also ausland.com because I do have a company that guides people to the northern South Pole and we also include my blog and the things I do on other expeditions there. So icelegacy.org or ausland.com.
James Fantastic. Well, look, Borg, thank you so much for your time. This has been nothing short of a treat. We're huge fans of your work and the talks that you've put online in the past and great Instagram account and the rest of it. So we definitely suggest people tag in with all that kind of stuff and and keep up with what you have, um, kind of coming up in, in the next little while, but, uh, our, our best to you from, for me from Toronto and Jason from Minneapolis. And thanks so much for your time.
Borge Ousland Okay, guys. Thank you so much.
James All right. So there's our really fun chat with Borgo Oslund. What a rare treat to get to chat to a guy quite that accomplished, kind of the King of Polar Exploration and a huge thank you from Jason and I to Nerona. Before making that connection, he's a longtime partner with Nerona and the folks there have always been very supportive of TGN. So when the opportunity came up to have Borga on the show, we obviously leapt at it. Obviously hit the notes if you want to read about anything that he mentioned, including and up to the diver that Nerona made with Ulysses Nardin. That's the Arctic Knight LE. And yeah, I just think it was a really fun chat and not something you get to do every day to sit down. He was at his house and had certainly lots of great answers for the questions.
Jason Yeah, it was incredible. And he said he'd been out free diving in the waters off of Oslo just I think the day before. So pretty amazing. You know, I, I was struck by, um, I'm always struck whenever we have these kinds of chats with these people, um, just how inspiring they can be. I, I've always been a little bit cynical or jaded about kind of self-help or, you know, you know, reading books or, or people talking about how they were inspired by so-and-so, or they kind of follow somebody as a, as an idol. Um, but I do come away from a talk like this feeling inspired and feeling like, you know, here's someone who, you know, what, one thing that resonated with me was his comment about, you know, you, you can't necessarily dwell on the problem at hand. You have to turn and start looking at the solution. And none of us are probably going to be faced with, you know, a cracked sled, you know, on Arctic ice like he was, but like anything you encounter in life, you know, you can overcome with, with the right attitude and kind of patience. And, and he's really the embodiment of that. And I found that very inspirational. So I hope, uh, I hope our listeners enjoyed that. And, um, yeah, big thanks again to a burger and to Nerona for connecting us.
James Yeah, absolutely. There's definitely a vein of stoicism throughout a lot of these guys that, that managed to do some of these things because there, it is that difference of, there's even a point in the in the chat where he says in that and when my sled broke, I was a little bit depressed and that's okay, but then he moved on right like there's only so much that you can do like you get to choose how you feel about what happened and then you get to choose how you respond to it, which is very like a key tenant in stoicism and you could definitely see that that was kind of a linchpin to his mental strength for dealing with just how hard these tasks are probably why it's okay to feel like he wants to go do these things is because he knows he has that kind of footing to deal with the inevitable problems, for sure. Yeah. All right. How about a little bit of final notes?
Jason Yeah. I'll start because I think it's obviously very relevant to our chat with Borga. This is an article that appeared on National Geographic's website. It's called The Untold Story of the Boldest Polar Expedition of Modern Times. And indeed, it's about Borga and Mike Horn's crossing of the Arctic Ocean in winter. You know, if you click the link in the show notes, you'll be taken there. And, and it is one of these articles that, um, you'll have to sign up, you know, put in your email address and you get a number of free articles before you have to start paying. Um, so I did that. I just put in my email address so I could, I could read this and it's really worth it. It's a very long form article with lots of great photos from their trip and big maps and typical kind of national geographic quality. And, uh, the story itself is just, it's just insane. I mean, what these guys did, if you want some perspective, Uh, after listening to a fairly modest, um, man talk about, um, his accomplishments, I think that's, uh, this is a good place to start, you know, just read through this and you'll discover what, uh, what an amazing accomplishment, uh, their trip was. Uh, check that out. I won't say anymore. I mean, we just listened to Borga for, for 45 minutes to talk about his exploits, but here you can read about it and see some photos from their trip.
James Fantastic. Yeah, that's a great suggestion. There's some. I'll include them in the show notes, of course, but there's a couple great videos from Borg and there's at least one on YouTube that's like five and a half hours long. It must be a series that somebody's compressed into one thing or it's like one of those joke YouTube videos that goes on forever, but I couldn't see why you would pick an Arctic exploration topic to do that. But I'll include those in the show notes. I definitely binged a handful of them preparing for the chat with Borg and it was some really incredible stuff for sure. Cool. All right.
Jason What do you have today?
James I have a trailer for a show that you may or may not be able to easily watch. If you're in the UK and you have access to a service called Channel 4, a channel called Channel 4, the service is called All 4, and the show is called The Last Overland. And it's a multi-episode series of some guys retracing this 13,000-mile overland trip from London to Singapore. The trailer's really fantastic. I'm working very hard to figure out if this all four is something I could use a VPN to get around, or if I need to be even craftier than that, or if I should just pay for all four and then quietly pirate the show if I could find it somewhere else. So yeah, it's this incredible looking film cut up into several pieces. It looks like it might be in the same vein as some of the big Top Gear adventures, but they basically do the drive in a 1950s Land Rover.
Jason It was actually the first, the Land Rover they did the first trip in.
James It looks like they get into all sorts of adventures and troubles. And, and, and obviously if you can imagine the route from London to Singapore, it goes into some pretty tough areas. Uh, so some of that's captured in the trailer. And then if you're, like I said, if you're in the UK and have access to all four, uh, then at least the first four episodes are now available on the platform as the show kind of started airing, uh, towards the end of September.
Jason Yeah, I, I, really need to figure out a way to see this. So once you find out, uh, let me know. I read Tim Slessor's book, the first overland, um, which he wrote, he was one of the guys on the first trips back in the fifties. And I know that they tried to, to get him to come along on this one. And then he fell ill and his grandson took his place. But I mean, what an incredible trip back then, of course, for, for different reasons. And then, and then to do it in the same truck in modern times with, with an ancient vehicle, um, in a very changed world and quite the adventure, just, uh, Very different from Borga's adventures, but equally audacious and really fascinating.
James Yeah. So I would say this is more of a heads up. I don't have a solution for how you can watch it. Hopefully it's the kind of thing like maybe when they're done, it goes to Amazon or they do DVDs or something. That might be the only scenario. Right. I would pay significantly more than what all four is asking for. Were I in the UK to watch this, you know, it reminds me of in terms of where to get it, but it has this thing that I really, it's something I really want to see is you remember descending? Yeah. really TV series about diving yeah, I think it was from like even you know a few years before TGN started, but it was you know these guys that had another travel program, the name of which is escaping me very famous long standing travel program and then I remember like one one season of descending was on discovery dot CA another season was somewhere else another one. I had to pirate like it was a mess just trying to get that show But it was so exciting when I got an episode. And when I when I watched this trailer and then realized there were several episodes just on a platform I couldn't get to, I was like, oh, man, this feels like, you know, 2013 all over again.
Jason Yeah. And this looks great. So fingers crossed that we'll be able to watch that. Looks great. The trailers got it on its own. So cool. Cool pick.
James Yeah. Definitely check out the trailer to be in the show notes.
Jason All right. Well, that wraps a very wintry episode, I would say. Very adventurous episode. Mm hmm. And as always, thanks so much for listening. And we leave you with this quote from Roald Amundsen who said, victory awaits him who has everything in order. Luck, people call it.