The Grey Nato - Question & Answer #1

Published on Tue, 01 Nov 2016 09:08:34 -0400

Synopsis

This is a Q&A podcast episode where the hosts answer questions from listeners about watches. Some key points:

  1. They discuss how to assess the value of a watch in relation to its price, considering factors like brand prestige, materials used, and whether buying new or pre-owned. They recommend certain brands like Seiko and Oris that tend to offer good value.

  2. They provide advice on buying vintage watches on eBay, suggesting focusing on underappreciated brands rather than high-end models that are often faked. Research and knowledge about the specific watch model is important before purchasing on eBay.

  3. They give their thoughts on potential watch purchases for commemorating a professional achievement, weighing sporty options like Rolex GMT-Master II or Explorer II against dressier choices like Jaeger-LeCoultre. Their recommendations depend on the listener's style and workplace environment.

  4. They discuss the tradition of passing down watches more often to sons rather than daughters, viewing it as a legacy of gender norms from older generations when watches were more masculine accessories.

Transcript

Speaker
James Hey guys and gals, James here with a post-Halloween surprise treat, a Q&A episode. So we had alluded in a previous episode of TGN that we would be breaking off our question and answer segment into a separated shorter show that we would just kind of put out when we had them. So here's the first one, Q&A number one. We got to a handful of questions. We're going to try and grind through all of our backlog of questions. So if you have a question for us, you know, watches, gear, travel, adventure, whatever, Send it in to TheGreyNado at gmail.com. We really love your questions and we need as many as possible to kind of keep these kind of surprise episodes coming. Until then, please enjoy the episode. And of course, we will chat to you as normal next Tuesday. So let's jump right into the questions. So Nathan from San Francisco asks, I was in Hawaii last week and I found myself doing a little window shopping at one of Hawaii's Rolex dealers. I got my hands on a few of the new models and eventually tried on the Yachtmaster Everose with their new rubber strap, called the Oysterflex. I must say that this is one of the most comfortable watches I've ever worn, and to me, aesthetically perfect for those t-shirt wearing weekend warrior days. However, at $20,000 to $25,000, it's very much out of my price range. My question is, when does the price of a watch outweigh its overall value? What are some good things to look at when assessing the value of a watch as it relates to the price? in both new or vintage pieces. And then Nathan, he wants to be clear that he doesn't think the Everose Yachtmaster is overpriced or overvalued. It just kind of sparked a question in his mind when he was planning some future purchases. So Jason, where do you land on the idea of personally valuing a watch?
Jason Heaton Well, I think that from my perspective, having observed and lived watches for a decade or so, There's no doubt in my mind that most watches are overpriced and I think it's just something that people have to kind of come up with their own sense of value when it comes to watches. I think particularly the ones from the top Swiss brands, you know, I've heard anecdotally stories of markups in the 65 to 70 percent range. Yeah, for sure. Over, you know, cost of a watch and that's just not, that ceases to be surprising to me and I think people sort of just establish what they're willing to pay, and that's what the market bears, and that's how the brands price their watches. If people weren't buying watches at, you know, a Yacht-Master at $20,000, it wouldn't cost that, and so somebody's paying those kinds of monies. I personally, you know, like you, Nathan, I couldn't afford a $20,000 Yacht-Master, although I do think it's a great watch, as you noticed. I think a way around that is kind of like with cars, you know, your best bang for the buck is going to be going the pre-owned route, And it's kind of like the car that when it drives off the showroom floor, it drops by half of its value or more. I think it's kind of the same with watches. Now that's not always the case. And certainly there are exceptions with brands that you can buy new and still get really good value out of. You know, Seiko comes to mind. I think most people would kind of put Seiko in that high value category in terms of bang for the buck. Even Grand Seikos, I think, you know, I have a Grand Seiko GMT that I think it's like a $4,000 to $5,000 watch, and I think it's slotted perfectly. I think that's a great price. I think if you put a Swiss made on the dial, and it was from a different brand, it might even be $6,000 to $7,000 for that same watch. Certainly, if you go to smaller brands like a Helios, or a Deep Blue, or even a Doxa, those are also brands that haven't achieved that high level of, I don't want to say notoriety, but prestige, I guess. That kind of jacks prices up just right out the door. I think one of the bigger brands that might be an exception, and big is kind of a relative term, is a brand like Oris, which is a well-known old Swiss brand. But they've always managed to kind of keep their price to perceived value ratio pretty fair. And they kind of pride themselves on that. So certainly that's a brand to keep an eye on. But I think if you're buying new and if you're kind of trying to stay in a certain price range, the best bet is to go pre-owned. Of course, with the Yacht-Master that you're talking about, you're getting the double whammy of the fact that it's a Rolex, but you're also talking one that's an Everose, you know, in a gold case. So that's already going to add sort of a premium to the price level.
James I would agree that it's probably a difficult watch to use to illustrate our point, but like, yeah, it's an Everose Rolex. It's going to be expensive regardless. You know, I think there's a difference obviously between there's a subjectivity to the way that we all perceive the value of watches. I mean, a watch could be very well made for its price point, but I may not like it. So it's not going to have much value to me because I wouldn't, I wouldn't buy it, which is, you know, massive detraction in, in, in how I would personally weight the value. But certainly if there's a watch you're going after or, or an idea you're going after saying something is overpriced or not overpriced is difficult, but obviously you can, you can kind of stick to, the amount that you're willing to spend on a watch and find a lot of flexibility in there. And I think Jason brought up a handful of great brands. So I would say, you know, thanks very much for your question, Nathan. I hope that helps. And if you do end up picking up that Yachtmaster, be sure to tag us on Instagram with a photo. Very cool watch. You want to do another one?
Jason Heaton Yeah, let's go for it. Ben writes us and asks, you know, eBay remains a great resource for picking up vintage watches, but it is scary as hell for a lot of us who aren't horology experts. I think it would be cool to have a show where you discuss the pitfalls of buying watches on eBay, as well as discuss what to look for in order to find good pieces that aren't fakes or junk. What are some underappreciated classes or brands of watches that won't cost you an arm and a leg? Well Ben, that's a great question. I'm not sure we'll do an entire show on buying watches on eBay, but we can certainly take a crack at your question. James, what do you think about eBay and buying watches? Have you done much of that?
James Yeah, I think eBay is an excellent place to buy a watch, but I wouldn't go to eBay to learn about that watch. I think that it's important to enter the eBay scenario as something of an expert about what you already want to buy. I mean, I'm very guilty of simply going to eBay, typing in vintage diver, and then scrolling through 15 pages of results. But I think The entry-level skills like being able to see a bad reloom or a watch that clearly has a cleaned up dial or the wrong crown or something like that, I think those are fairly entry-level skills. But if you want to excel at eBay, I think you pretty much have to step into that game, wade into that stream with some power on your side. And I would simply suggest that you leverage all of the rest of the internet to learn about the watch that you're seeing on eBay. Don't take the seller's name or their reputation as any indication of what you're buying. Obviously, if you've worked with the seller before or a friend has or something like that, that limits your risk in some way. But I would say mostly when you're buying a vintage watch, just like if you were buying a used car, some of the onus is on you to know what you're getting into just from the standpoint of that watch or model. So if you're buying, say, a vintage Doxa, you should be able to tell if it's a non-original bezel, or the wrong crown, or a heavily refinished case. Otherwise, you're probably not ready to step into a world of $2,500 watches. That said, Ben points out that there's got to be some underappreciated classes and brands of watches, and I definitely think there are, but to that, I would probably pass the question to Jason. simply because he's purchased more of these.
Jason Heaton Yeah, I agree. And I second your point, James, about not taking a seller at his listed reputation. A lot of these guys have these five-star, 100% positive ratings. I'm not sure what that even means. I'm not sure anymore either. I think it's a little scary. I will say that a lot of eBay sellers are sort of otherwise sellers in disguise. So for instance, there are some very reputable dealers, uh, I believe HQ Milton out of San Francisco and I think Matt Bain out of Florida, both very reputable, well-known longtime vintage watch dealers also maintain eBay stores. And once you kind of get to know what their eBay handles are, uh, you can with some confidence, um, you know, shop some of their products. I actually bought, uh, locally, I bought my pre-moon Speedmaster from a guy who was one of the biggest eBay vintage watch sellers around. And I was perfectly confident, but then that was a local sale. So, but yeah, going back to kind of the brands to look for, you know, I'm, I would never, well, never is a strong word, but I would definitely avoid kind of the Rolexes, Omegas and the Hoyers, the big names that, that everybody kind of knows are prone to, to fakes on eBay. Simply because, you know, even if the guy selling it doesn't, didn't fake it, you know, chances are there's something going on under the hood that he wasn't aware of that he got from a previous owner. That said, there are plenty of other brands like the Securas, the Elgins, you know, James, you've got that Silvana, Enicar, even the Doxxers, Gruen, you know, there's just so many great underappreciated small brands.
James I mean, there's probably hundreds of brands, yeah.
Jason Heaton Hundreds of brands. It's these brands that, you know, popped up in the 60s and the 70s that that have since long disappeared that you might not even recognize the name that used some of the same cases that a Doxer or a Heuer used or even used movements that some of these other brands use that you can easily find on eBay that it's very low risk. For one thing, they're much more affordable typically, but they're watches that no one really bothers to fake. I mean, no one's really faking an Elgin or a Sakura most likely. So those are the kinds of brands that when I, you know, I'm suffering from insomnia and I jump on eBay on my phone in the middle of the night, you know, and search for vintage diver like, like James does, you know, those are the, those are the names I kind of get pretty curious about the Alstas and the, and the Nevadas and, and all those kinds of cool brands.
James I think the difference to consider is maybe if you're just starting out and you're not an expert on one very thin slice of watch history and models, don't buy a watch under the guise of it being an investment. I know that that's kind of a hot topic these days to invest in watches and buy investment watches. If you're going to do that, you need to operate at the highest trusted sources and even they get things wrong. Yeah. And I'm not saying there's anything malicious in that. I'm saying that there's a certain like fluidity to the facts that roll around with some of these watches, whether it's a Neumann this or these kind of rare, highly loved watches. I don't think that's where you, I don't think you necessarily want to jump into eBay looking for the next, you know, skyrocketing investment watch that you just luckily got. Those stories happen. And we read, you know, one or two a year, maybe where a guy walks into a store or catches an eBay sale and get something really special for a great price. But you can't make policy based on, on such a limited case. And I think you're much better off going with what I would consider the penny stocks of vintage watches. These are low risk, very cool, very wearable watches that likely don't have a lot of investment potential. And I think if that sounds appealing to you, then yes, eBay has a lot to offer and really rewards the person who's on there fairly frequently and getting a feel for, I've seen this watch, I've seen seven or eight of these watches recently, that sort of thing.
Jason Heaton Yeah, I agree. I think those eBay, you know, there's a time and a place for eBay. And I think at least in my mind, eBay is the perfect place to pick up those, you know, bargain back of the sock drawer dive watches that somebody's uncle is getting rid of that, you know, from these small brands, it's the perfect place to get watches like that. A lot of times they're not in great shape. They need a service, but you know, you put in a bid for, you know, three, $400 and chances are you get lucky. And you get it cleaned up for a couple hundred bucks with a good service from a watchmaker and you've got yourself a really cool sort of 60s dive watch or chronograph or whatever it might be.
James Exercise caution, but otherwise eBay is a great place to learn about watches, but don't trust everything that you see. Don't use it as your reference for the best example of a watch. It's not exactly where the A plus of everything ends up. So just, you know, treat it with some caution, get to know the sellers, get to know the environment and learn the sorts of watches you want to buy and find experts in those watches that can corroborate various data. And thankfully you have the internet. It's not like it was years ago where it would be books or really only just other collectors. This is largely why we have such a big kind of resurgence in vintage watches is because there's more information around, which means there's more buyers. That's a great question, Ben. Thanks a lot for writing in. Alright, so let's do another one here. Steve wrote in saying, I'm working towards a professional certification for my career and once completed, I'd like to celebrate with the purchase of a new watch. I'm definitely a sports watch guy. My day-to-day watch is an Omega Seamaster Planet Ocean. I'm really looking at getting a somewhat vintage Rolex though, specifically an Explorer II, like a 16570 or maybe a GMT Master II. I'd be curious to know your thoughts on these. James, I've seen you're an owner of an Explorer 2 on Instagram and the pros and cons of either potential addition to starting a collection. On the other hand, as a worker in the finance accounting industry, a great dress watch would be something to consider as well. My thoughts on that are narrowed down to a JLC and either the Master Control Calendar or the Master Control Chronograph. Sorry to be so long-winded. I'd love to know your thoughts on both sides of this dilemma. Okay, Steve, so interested in multiple time zone Rolexes, kind of last generation, not quite vintage yet, or possibly kind of an everyday dress watch. Jason, where do you land on this sort of conundrum? I think this is probably like a fairly common one.
Jason Heaton Yeah, and you know, not being a guy who dresses up a whole lot, and you know, if you've listened to any number of the grey nato podcast you probably know where james and i'll come down in this one or at least i'll guess i'll speak for myself but you know being a sports watch devotee and a somewhat of a rolex fanboy i'm always going to come down on the side of a good gmt master and explorer 2 over a dressier watch and that's not to say that i i'm not a fan of jaeger-lecoultre and both of those watches that you mentioned are fine um but to me you know especially if you're buying it as sort of a commemorative watch to celebrate a milestone like this professional certification that you're receiving. You know, I'd say opt for the kind of the classic, you know, get the Rolex, get the one that it can be with you through thick and thin. You know, you put it on your wrist and maybe you get it engraved on the back and you don't take it off. And everybody knows that there's kind of few better watches for doing that than a Rolex. Of the two Rolexes that you mentioned, It's kind of a toss-up. I like them both. But I'm going to give the edge to the GMT-Master II. I just think, you know, based on my own aesthetic taste, I had a 1675 years ago that I sorely regret getting rid of. But there's just something about a Pepsi bezel, if that's the one you opt for, kind of peeking out from under a sleeve that, you know, it's visible from afar, it's got a bit of, you know, whimsy to it, kind of a sportier look, and yet on the bracelet it just I don't know, it's just one of those sort of go-to calling card watches that, I don't know, I feel like, you know, every watch guy should own a GMT-Master at some point. It's just such a classic. So, James, I mean, you know, given your Explorer II history and current ownership, maybe you're going to come down on the other side with this one.
James Yeah, I mean, this is a tough choice, and Steve, I feel for you. I would say if there's no peer concerns, then I would lean towards the Rolex, if only because you wrote more words about the Rolex than you did the JLCs, which makes me think that that's kind of more where you're waiting. But if there's a kind of running dress code in your office, and that's something that you would like to respect as a working professional, and that's towards suits and dress watches and, you know, brogues and things like that, then by all means, go with the JLC. The watch will not age, you'll be able to wear it a lot. uh, you'll get a lot of use out of it. And it's definitely a class of watch that could be given to your kids one day. In the offices I've worked in, nobody would notice that you weren't wearing a dress watch. Nobody could really identify a dress watch from like with any accuracy versus something else. And if that's the case, then I'm actually with Jason go with a GMT Master II, um, unless you're really pulled towards the EXP 2. I obviously love the Explorer 2 and I bought one over a GMT-Master 2, but I did so because I love the white dial. I don't need the third time zone ability, so that bezel is purely an aesthetic decision, but I do adore the Pepsi. I love that with a 16, 7, 10, you could get all three bezels and essentially have three different watches to choose from. So there's great kind of great value there. They're in a similar price point if you're sticking to a $31.85 based 16710, just a killer watch. And personally, I think that unless your overall vibe doesn't work for this, I don't see why you couldn't wear something like a 16710 with a suit. I don't think it's a garish sport watch. I don't think it's too flashy. I don't think it's too anything. They're very much kind of just a beautiful object in and of themselves. I mean, you picked two of kind of my favorite brands, and I really love the Master Control Chronograph. It's a really beautiful watch. So thankfully, regardless of whether or not you heed any of our silly advice, you can't really make a bad decision between these watches. All of them will retain their value fairly well. I think would look great regardless of your office scenario. So best of luck in the hunt. And of course, tag us on Instagram with whatever you pick up, Steve. Thanks so much for writing in.
Jason Heaton Okay, let's dive into one more. We've got a question here from Eric who says, I have my dad's funky 1970s Omega, and dad is still alive apparently, and grandfather's 50s Seamaster. These are cool and won't leave the family. But why does this historically happen more for boys than girls? It seems a bit off. Is it simply the only acceptable boy jewelry? Eric is curious what our thoughts are on why boys tend to inherit watches more than girls do. Well, as someone who didn't inherit a watch, Eric, or have children, I feel somewhat unqualified to answer this one, but I suspect, you know, a watch is just traditionally more of a masculine object to pass down like a pocket knife or a money clip or something like that. Whereas maybe women get more jewelry from mother or get the wedding dress to wear for their own weddings. I'm not sure. James, you might be a little more, a little more qualified to answer this one. What do you think about this?
James Yeah, sure. So I have yet to inherit a watch. You know, my dad has some watches that I like. And I think what you're dealing with here, Eric, is just kind of some gender normative garbage from older generations. And I think that if you go back far enough, at least in that I can speak what I think to be the kind of North American context of the nice things that a man might own that that last a long time. a watch is one that kind of wraps into his personality. So where a daughter traditionally might receive some of their mother's or grandmother's jewelry, there's not the same jewelry necessarily that's going to come from the father down to the son. So I think that just ends up being with the watch. And you have to remember, if you go back enough years, watches weren't an affectation or uh, an accessory, they were like a required thing to carry out your life during the day. You didn't have any other source of the time in many scenarios. And I think that, I think that gave them a heavier weight than maybe we see now. So I think there's some tradition that's left in the way we pass on watches to our sons. I have a daughter and we'll pass on whatever watches she seems even remotely interested in. And beyond that, I mean, there's not a whole lot you can control. I think a lot of it is even less about the watch or the item and more about the fact that it's yours. So sure, if you pass on a watch, your daughter may not wear it, but I think she'd still cherish it. And maybe it will end up with her son, which I think is pretty cool. Like, you know, there's, there's lots of ways that that could work out. And I think it's, it's, it's mostly passing on something that was kind of important to you and a token of the fact that you moved through life with purpose, I think, is where it lands for me anyways. But it's an interesting question, Eric. It'd be interesting to see if your daughter's interested in watches in general, let alone yours or your dad's or your grandfather's. But thanks so much for the question. And that'll do it for Q&A episode one. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you so, so much for everyone who wrote in. And if you have a question, big, small, or otherwise, please let us know. the great nato at gmail.com jason i appreciate each and every person who's taken the time to write in and we will of course return next week with a full-length episode so until then be well