The Grey NATO – 181 – Jason Under The Ice

Published on Thu, 17 Feb 2022 07:00:04 -0500

Synopsis

The podcast discusses Jason's recent experience with ice diving, a unique and adventurous form of diving where you go underwater through a hole cut in a frozen lake. He shares the gear preparation required, such as wearing a dry suit, using cold water rated regulators, and the challenges of achieving proper buoyancy with the added layers and camera equipment. The dive itself is tethered to a rope system for safety, and Jason describes the otherworldly experience of swimming beneath the ice ceiling, observing the bubbles and filtered sunlight. James and Jason also talk about new watches they recently acquired, including the Tornek Rayville TR-660 dive watch and the Aera D1 Diver, discussing their design, specifications, and brand backstories.

Transcript

Speaker
Jason Heaton Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Graynado, a loose discussion of travel, diving, driving gear, and most certainly watches. This is episode 181, and it's proudly brought to you by our recently formed TGN supporter crew. And we thank you all so much for your continued support of the show. And for those of you that are unaware of what that means, uh, or, and you would like to Find a way to support the show, please visit thegranado.com for more details. There's a link for support. There's a link for notes. There's a link for the feed. So check it out. James, how's it going? We're halfway through the longest, shortest month of the year. Yeah.
James February does drag in a special way, doesn't it? It's been, it's been a real mixed bag for weather here. Lovely days, but the weather, the temperatures all over the map and I'm still in the, now the fine, by the time you're listening to this, I'll be, I'll, I'll be, at the stage just before I start putting stuff in the Jeep to drive up north for some winter camping. And at this point, I don't really know if it's gonna be three or four degrees and everything we bought is overkill, which is fine. Who cares? It's not like you buy it for one outing. Or if it's gonna be a cold snap, it's supposed to start snowing to about two days before and apparently will continue to snow. The interesting thing is where my cottage is typically there's a, uh, the, the highest elevation is nearby and it seems to split a lot of weather. Huh? Um, so we, we do it a lot where, um, you know, throughout the whole summer, we joke that every Sunday it rains. Uh, and the truth is, is every Sunday it rains somewhere nearby and it's very commonly not right on the property. You can watch the rain across the lake. Sometimes you can, you drive into town and it's raining in town. Um, but there's something to do with the way that the kind of this nearby highest point in the area breaks up some of the weather. So having not spent a ton of time in the winter out that way, I don't really know what to expect. I'm hoping it's cold enough to be like a proper winter outing. Yeah, yeah. But it's also one of the things where you can take it as it goes. If it's not really what we expected, there's nice breweries not that far away. We're doing this kind of on the property to make it a little bit less complicated than dragging a sled through a provincial park or something into the back country. I'm looking forward to that. We've got the new sleeping bags, the pads, maybe doing an Eddie Bauer run for some lined pants in the next day or two. But other than that, it's all, it's all pretty straightforward. I mean, it's just winter stuff. So, uh, and, and most of the camping gears already, I left most of it at the cottage anyway. So the stoves and the tents and the rest are already up there.
Jason Heaton Well, it sounds perfect. I mean, I think even if it's not bitterly cold, um, which I think could be very unpleasant, uh, for, for stuff, you know, sleeping is, is one thing, but then there's all that time. setting up and, and, you know, building a fire and cooking when it's like, if it's really cold and your fingers are numb and whatever, I mean, there's a lot of time when you're just kind of sitting around outside. And I think even if it's near, you know, zero or 32, whichever scale you're looking at, it's, uh, that's, that's plenty cold. If you're just kind of hanging out, you know, not moving around that much.
James So, yeah, I hope it's good. I wouldn't mind it if it was, you know, comfortably warm during the day and then and then got cold enough to make the actual camping experience feel different than sleeping at home or whatever. Yeah, right. And I think that's probably what we'll end up with. I don't expect it to be like negative 25. Yeah. And, you know, debilitating. And I don't really expect it to be like, you know, five Celsius or something. So that should be fine.
Jason Heaton I hope it snows while you're sleeping, though. That would be that would be so cool to wake up and kind of, you know, the cliche of, you know, knocking the snow off the tent and unzipping to like a fresh blanket of snow. That would be really cool.
James And especially because we've had the, the warm cold cycle here. So the snow sucks. It's frosty, you know, crust snow, very February. And so it would be nice if we got a nice blanket, especially up North. I don't care. Be like poor Toronto. Give it, give us a break with everything else that's going on for transportation in the city, but you know, dump a bit up North and then we can set up on softer snow rather than the harder stuff and the rest of it.
Jason Heaton Right. Yeah. Oh, I can't wait to see photos and hear all about that. Yeah.
James Yeah. It should be good. I'll certainly take a camera with me and hopefully enjoy some time by the fire and whiskey warmth and the rest of it. How about you? How have you been? You had a solid weekend, which is going to be the kind of main topic, but what else have you been up to?
Jason Heaton Yeah. So as of yesterday, I ended my one watch one month experiment that I've been talking about in the past few episodes. uh, where I was wearing my, my white dialed Omega Seamaster since mid January. And, you know, I started it almost because of that sort of exchange we had on an episode when I said, Oh, you know, this watch could almost be my one watch and maybe I'll just wear it for a month. And you said, Oh, that'd be make for a great article. And sure enough, it did. And then I've just been trying to wear it. I'll did wear it for, you know, 24 seven doing everything, you know, rowing, running, skiing, ultimately diving, which we'll talk about. But, Yeah, it was, it was a, it was a good exercise. I, I'm back to switching. I put a different watch on yesterday. I've got a different one on today and I could have gone on longer. It was, it almost got to the point where it was kind of nice not to even think about and I wasn't bored with it at all. And I can see putting it back on, you know, really soon and just kind of keep keeping on with it because it's, it's a very comfortable watch. And I think on the rubber strap, which is how I wore it, uh, it was, it was versatile enough for, for really active, endeavors. And then we've, we've got some extended travel coming up here in a couple of months, uh, where I won't want to be packing multiple watches along and that probably will just be my, my go-to for that. So we'll see. But yeah, that was kind of the, kind of the big news, I guess, watch news on my end and then not, uh, notwithstanding the, the watch that, that arrived recently that I've, I've got on today that I'll talk about in a bit here, but yeah, one month, one watch. And I think it inspired a few other people to try it as well. So If you feel so inclined, give it a go. It's a good exercise.
James Yeah. I mean, these days I don't, I don't really swap them around a ton. Uh, you know, I haven't even had a ton of watches in, you know, we're in, we're in a little bit of a, not a dip necessarily, but with watches and wonder now so close. Yeah. Um, I think it is that, that thing where the tide kind of pulls back and you have to kind of wait a little bit for, uh, for the big wave. But yeah, I, uh, I think it's cool. I think it's been interesting. Are you planning like a, like a big summary post for, uh, for Substack, something people should, should have an eye out for, or, or was there maybe not like a grand lesson in the end of it?
Jason Heaton Um, I, I think I will. I'm not sure if it'll be this week or next week. I think. I'll be sure to highlight. Yeah. Yeah. I'll, I'll, I'll mention it if I do and, and, and point people to that when it comes along, but, uh, for sure there were some lessons and, um, you know, for, for true watch nerds to kind of, who are curious about the, the one watch thing and maybe a little afraid to try it. Um, I would encourage people to give it a go and I'll, I'll definitely mull over my, my lessons learned and write those up at some point.
James I love it. Yeah, that, that'll be, that'll be one to look forward to. Yeah. And, uh, and yes, for certain speaking of watches, uh, I mean, you want to get into watch, talk, risk, check, et cetera. Yeah.
Jason Heaton We both got some new ish ones on our wrists here. Um, I've got, so the watch I switched to is one that arrived last week while I was, I was still in the last days of wearing the Omega. And this is the, the hotly anticipated Tornek Rayville TR-660. And we had spoken with Bill Yao back several episodes. I think somebody even wrote that in the comments. I think it was episode 153. And, you know, Bill Yao of Mark II fame launched Tornek Rayville a while back with this incredible release. This is a name that was given to a watch built by Blancpain back in the 1960s in order to import into the U.S. and be issued to to Navy divers at the time and since went defunct. And so he thought, you know, I want to kind of build a watch. That's hearkens back to that, to the original ethic and look of that watch. And so that's what he did. And, and so I've got this TR 660 that comes with a wonderful package. It's a, it comes with a couple of ribbed NATOs and a really good, simple rubber strap. And, and Bill's always been good with packaging and that's always, you know, first impressions make a difference. And, and the watch comes in kind of, uh, one of his sort of trademark, I guess you'd call it like a smaller plastic shell case, almost like what you get, like a small pistol in or something like that with some padding.
James Yeah. That was similar for the, the, um, Paradive, right? The Paradive. Yeah. It's a nice case. Functional, useful.
Jason Heaton Yeah. Easy to store. Yeah. It comes with extra spring bars and a tool. Uh, some, some really kind of cool tongue and cheek 60s style instructions. You know, the watch itself having really only worn it for about 24 hours now, It's just superb. I mean, predictably, Bill's watches are always really high quality, but it's a great size. It's 40 millimeters by a little less than 15 thick and 48 and a half lug to lug. I opted for the acrylic bezel, so it comes, you could also get an aluminum bezel insert. Crystal is a double-domed sapphire, so it makes kind of just casual phone wrist shots a bit tricky because you get a lot of sort of weird reflection off of it, but it certainly looks good. and and I think what I really like about this watch especially is the the finish of the case it's it's a bead blasted stainless steel so it has that really matte gray look I think back in the 60s and 70s you know if you think of like the Benruss watches the the type ones and type two divers they I think they called it parkerized um the finish back then I'm not sure exactly what that meant but it there's like no no glare no reflection at all I mean it's just it's like it's almost been painted on And this watch just feels like such a functional, you know, kind of Navy issue watch. It feels like the kind of watch you just wear to do anything in. And, uh, and with the, it's got the Seiko NE15 movement in it. So it's, uh, you know, it's going to be, it's going to be pretty good. And, and, you know, Seiko movements in, in kind of affordable watches aren't known for their accuracy, but I think a nice touch is that Bill adjusts these in three positions and then provides a little, um, you know, personalized notation of, of the timing and each of the three positions and kind of how he kind of tries to dial it in to get good accuracy. And so far it's been, it's a nice attention to detail.
James Yeah. Yeah. And it's not just the, it's like you said that with the packaging and the details and the rest of it, or one thing, but there's, it's there, it's the, it reassures you that you bought something from a guy rather than some giant company. Right. Right. And there's something I still really, really like about that experience versus you know, with a higher end watch or even just a watch from a larger brand.
Unknown Yeah.
James There's something kind of personal about those little add-ons that mean that a person looked at your watch and touched it and did the QC stuff. And Bill's a maniac about QC. It's kind of one of the things he's known for. Yeah. And yeah, no, that's, that's a, that's fantastic.
Jason Heaton Yeah. It's, it's a great watch. I mean, early days here, but, but I really like it. And, you know, I remember I had bought one of his Tornick Rayville t-shirts a couple of years ago and took a picture of it. And I remember I heard from, someone high up at Blancpain, you know, asking where I got the t-shirt. And I told him, he said, Oh, what a shame. It's not from the original. And I thought, you know, I know that some people will get hung up on, on the name and the fact that it's a bit of an homage with the name of the original watch that was built by Blancpain. But I would argue that, you know, that, that name was adopted to meet a specific kind of loophole for sale to, to a government entity in the U S back in the sixties. And I think this watch actually kind of hits the original ethic of Yeah, that's true for sure. This one just feels like something that, you know, could still be in the, in the, in the stores at a, at a PX or, or, you know, issued to divers somewhere. And, uh, so yeah, so far so good. It's a, it's a really cool watch. And I think, you know, people see a lot of photos and hear a lot about this on, on social media, but it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's podcasts and blogs and on Instagram these days. And I would say first impressions are excellent. Very good. So Bravo to Bill and the brand he's built with that.
James And I'm curious, do you know what the current like ordering scenario is? Is it, do you have to wait for a batch or do you pre-order it? And then when that, when your slot comes in, you get it. Is that how that works or?
Jason Heaton Yeah, he's, um, he's, uh, I'm, I'm looking at the website now and, and it's sold out. They, they had a round in January that, that has been fulfilled. And then it says here, the next round will be available in late summer, 2022. So, um, as, as is often the case with, with these popular smaller brands like Halios and Tornic Rayville, I mean, you've got, you've got to keep an eye on, on social media and get maybe sign up for one of their newsletters because when, when the pre-order opens, you've got to, you've got to jump on it. So.
James Yeah, that's, that's true. Yeah. Yeah. Everything's tough to buy these days. Right. But at least not everything, not everything is going up exponentially in price. That's still a sub thousand dollar dive watch. And, uh, and my guess is if you're patient, if you wait, this is the start of this sort of branch of what bill does. Uh, so yeah, maybe you don't get this one. Maybe it's the next one, or maybe you just have to wait a little while and he makes more. Um, it is one of those things where a lot, a lot of this stuff just requires patience, especially with brands that people know.
Jason Heaton Right. Yeah. Yeah. And you've got an interesting small brand diver on.
James Yeah, I have a brand new brand. They've kind of been on the mark for a little while, but their official launch kind of coincides with this week. So I have a post on Hodinkee going up and then we're talking about it here. The brand is called Aera. A-E-R-A. So not the normal spelling of Aera, but it is a play on that word, on the root for that word. You know, a distinctive element in time. essentially. And it's called the D1 Diver. They have two watches, a Pilot and a Diver. I've really taken to the Diver in a more specific way. I think this is one worth checking out. Kind of along the same lines as like the Dietrich, it's a departure from the current trend for everything to be kind of vintage inspired. In many ways, it's almost the aesthetic antithesis of a tourniquet being made in 2022, right? Right. And so this is a very modern Diver And it has an interesting backstory. I spoke to one of the co-founders, his name is Jaz Minhas, and he came from a family that ran a distribution company in the UK. So like, he's like a third generation watch person. And one of the companies they worked with was Ichipod and Mark Newson. And I think you can see some of that in the designing, not overly, it's not, but there's a smoothness and an integratedness where the watch ends up kind of almost feeling like one piece aside from say, maybe the bezel. And it's a, it's a 42 millimeter case, but a 44 millimeter bezel. So where's almost exactly how I'm saying it's very comfortable on wrist. It's a nicely sloped case with lowered lugs. So it sits flat, has a real, like a remarkably good rubber strap, a big dome on the crystal, but the crystal, again, it's not like a box crystal. There's no vintage effect. The crystal is like perfectly integrated with the curvature of the bezel. I really just encourage people to check it out. Cause there's a slickness to what they've made. Oh yeah. It's got a big ceramic bezel insert that's also loomed. Incredible loom on the dial, which I'll get to in a moment. It's a little less than 50 millimeters lug to lug. It's 16 millimeters thick, but that includes the crystal. And because there's not a ton of case back depth, the watch really kind of sucks down on your wrist. You remember what it was to throw on the original S500, the Bremont?
Unknown Oh yeah, yeah, right.
James Or like even the Kobold or some of the larger Zen stuff, where you're like, well, the case is going to be too big. And then you put it on and they've kind of found a way to get a big dive watch that still sits kind of nicely and flat on your wrist. And that's not common for my sort of bony wrist. It's 1200 pounds, which is on the higher side for a brand that's just kind of starting out. We're pretty commonly seeing brands that were operating in the sub thousand dollar space. But look at what's happened to the cost of all watches. I think we might have to start to give some brands, especially brands just starting out that don't wanna use off the shelf cases, things like that, a little bit of leeway if everything's more expensive, right? That's gonna play out into a lot of different things. I think the watch makes sense at this price point for the most part. And the interesting thing that they're doing is if you're buying in the US, the UK, and a couple of different spots in Europe. It's all on their website. They include the VAT or the taxes. Oh, okay. So that's not an inconsiderable amount of money when you're talking about a $1,500, $1,600 watch. The pilot's a little bit less. And that includes shipping. They've got a three-year warranty, et cetera, et cetera. I'm largely impressed by the watch. I think it looks really good. The interesting part about it and the part that once I spent some time with it, I really started to enjoy is they've they're using a single piece dial that's dished, like a bowl.
Jason Heaton Oh, huh. Interesting.
James Once you realize that there's no seam between the dial plate, if you will, and where RIAT would normally be, the chapter ring, as some people call it, it ends up being really kind of eye-catching just to kind of turn it. Cause it's got this big dome crystal and the distortion is very pleasing. And then the cool thing is I was talking to them that when they, when they decided to go with the curve dial and they do the same thing on the pilot, it caused a huge problem for the pad printing that does the luminous application. Oh yeah. Cause you can't curve on, you can't print on a curve, I guess. I don't know. I don't, we don't do this. This is just what I was told. So what they do is they actually etch the dial to make like a well, and then they had to find somebody in Switzerland who would hand paint the loom. Wow. Okay. That's impressive. Yeah. You have this kind of super modern, complicated dial that ends up not looking complicated at all. And then the loom is really bright. really, really bright. They use a ton of... I'm assuming on the Diver, it's BGW9. I didn't ask specifically, but it's super-luminova and it's white and it glows blue. So fill in the blanks on that one. But it glows really brightly. Big hands, big markers, the bezels loomed. And when you mix that with the crystal, which feels, again, kind of like Bremont-esque, where they've got a crystal that even when it has reflections on it, it seems like the optical quality is higher than I'm used to. It's just very clear. And it shows the dial off really nicely. I like the watch. It's got a little bit of blue accent. And otherwise, it's kind of like a Pelagos. It's a stop sign in terms of aesthetic. Yeah. There's nothing there. There's no date. And the no date part does bring me my only quibble about the watch. And it's up to you if this is a big deal. It wouldn't be a deal breaker for me. So the watch has a phantom position on the crown. Yeah, my preference, of course, is not to have that. But typically, that means one, you go down to like a Miyota 9015, which wouldn't quite make sense at this price point versus a Swiss movement. And if that's the only thing that I can really highlight, then I think it's kind of, I would call it a minor issue. If you're a huge movement nerd, I don't think an SW200 was going to please you in the first place, right? Yeah. So there is a phantom position. It's largely minimized. You do go kind of naturally to the outer position to set the time and it's an automatic, so you're not going to necessarily be playing with the crown a ton, but that's something worth noting. And then the final thing that makes these kind of interesting or unique is the case, the crown, the bezel, even the buckle on the strap is 904L, not 316. Oh, that's unusual. Yeah, very unusual, much more expensive, more difficult to tool, but it does. It's a wider metal, um, then because there's more, I think it's chromium that they use in, in the nine Oh four L mixture. Sure. So it, it doesn't look quite the same or carry a finish quite the same as, as three 16. And it's said to be more corrosion resistant and those sorts of things. I don't know that I've ever had a dive watch like rust in the span of time that I've owned it. But Hey, uh, if you're going to spend the money, like if you're going to be spending in excess of, of a thousand dollars, why not? Right. Yeah, it's another add-on in that spec. Yeah, so that's the AERA, A-E-R-A D-1 Diver. And I'm impressed. It's kind of right on the edge of what I would call too big for my wrist. But if you prefer a larger dive watch, and I wouldn't call it a large dive watch, it's not 45, 46, 47, but I think this wears really nicely. It looks really good. It has that sort of Teutonic coolness, like a Zen, like a Cobalt. And then it has a little bit of the sort of Ichipod stuff with the curvature of the dial and the big loom and the fact that it all glows and the way that it sits on wrist feels very like modern and considered. I think they did a nice job. It's not perfect, but I think they did a really nice job and a brand new brand.
Jason Heaton Yeah, it's very sharp. I'm looking at it. It has such a crispness to it. And I love the handset is a little different in the blue triangle on the bezel that the strap looks great. It, it, it has a, even the name conjures in my mind, more of a kind of a Scandinavian vibe, even then British vibe. It reminds me of, uh, I don't know if you remember a few years ago, I had that to say no diver that I was wearing for a while that, that they sent me to try out and it has that similar, it's just, it's a really clean watch. And, uh, yeah, this is sharp. I like it. I think we're, I feel like we're due for another one of our, what did we call that one episode in brands you should know or something, you know, these kinds of smaller brands, cause
James Yeah, I don't disagree. There's been some stuff to keep an eye on, but then there's still some stuff from that one that we haven't seen yet due to delays, due to the shipping issues and the supply chain and the rest of it. Yeah, yeah. But I think that that is a fun one. And there are some... When we were talking about possibly doing a micro brand version of the previous episodes, new format, overlooked watches, there's a handful that came up in the comments. So I wanna take the time to dig into those brands to see if they're overlooked or if they just aren't getting the press because they're not special.
Unknown Right. Yeah. Yeah.
James Right. You, you have to kind of figure that out because there's so many micro brands or Indies, whatever you want to call them. I still prefer to call them micro brands because Indies in my mind is like MBNF and Philip Dufour and things like that. And I feel like micro, we could, we should maybe figure out a different term, but there's a lot of these small brands that haven't proven themselves yet. And there's, I think there's even more that, almost feel like they're, uh, a little bit callous in thinking that if they make a $700 dive watch, that kind of looks like it came out in the mid century, you know, their, their Kickstarter will be successful and it feels a little disingenuous. Yeah. Um, I, I like to try and gauge how dialed in the creators are with watches. Like with Bill, it's so easy. He's such a huge watch nerd. And then he's found like versions of watches that really play into other things that he loves be at the military background and that sort of stuff. you know, a new generation is great to see, uh, but there's so much out there that it can be difficult to like encapsulate it all and not essentially recommend something that we haven't vetted. Right. Which I, it concerns me a lot, especially with the Kickstarter stuff. So you have to be pretty careful with this stuff. So I, with these ones, I wanted to wait until they were out of with the era stuff. I wanted to wait until it was out of prototype production spec and take a look. And I think they're cool. If you're, if you're good with the size, which I think is on the larger size of kind of medium, Uh, they're, they're pretty sweet. And I really love the way the diver looks. Yeah. Very sharp. All right. Look, I'm, I'm excited. I've, I've really done my best not to get on Slack and ask you a million questions about your return to ice diving, uh, this past weekend, but we're going to make it the main topic. Cause I have some questions. I really want to hear the story from your perspective. I'm sure there'll be a photo and stories, uh, either for swim proof or maybe for a TGN, wherever we, wherever you decide you want to put it. You know, if you, if people haven't been listening, This past weekend, Jason, is this your second time doing ice diving or have you done it more than that? This was my third, third time.
Unknown Yeah.
James Third. Okay. So your third outing in a legit, like diving under a fully enclosed, you know, body of water. Yeah. I don't even know where it is. Where would you want to start? What do you think the natural spot to start is?
Jason Heaton Yeah. Well, I mean, I can go back. I think when I first tried it was, I think it was like 2013 and, and I did it because, Well, I mean, you know, living here, it's a, it's winter six months out of the year. And if you, if you don't fly away for a tropical getaway, I was, especially back then I was pretty, pretty diving crazy. I mean, I just wanted to dive as much as I could. And, you know, I had been familiar with cold water diving, but, but the, the local shop here offered an ice diving course. That's a certification level that you can get via Patty. And I'm sure, you know, now we, and some of the other agencies offer it as well. So I had signed up for that back in 2013 and did the course. on exactly the same lake, uh, with the same people, uh, as I did this past weekend and they do it every year. And, and there's just so little opportunity to do it because, you know, it's, it's a lot of work to, to make it happen. And so it was a number of years of a difficult niche. Exactly. And, and a number of years went by and then I did it again. I just tagged along with that year's class for the new students. Mm. So I kind of helped out with the setup and then, and then did a dive and that was it. And then that was, gosh, that's probably been five, six years, uh, since I did that again. And then this year I thought, you know, I kind of want to try it again. I I'm ready again. Uh, maybe it's a case of having too short of a memory and how unpleasant it can be, but, you know, I, I, again, I tagged along with another class. And so, uh, this place called scuba center, which is, uh, kind of my go-to dive shop here in the twin cities. Uh, offer this, uh, once a year, typically in, in mid February when the lake ice is good and thick and joined them, they, they did it Saturday, Sunday. And then of course they do classroom and pool sessions, uh, days before that. Um, but I only went out on Saturday morning, um, because I, I was just going to kind of tag along and just do a dive. Um, but you know, just a small side note here when they do the pool sessions for training, they leave the cover on the pool, you know, the tarp. That makes sense. Yeah. picture like a pool cover because it simulates an overhead environment to practice with the rope signals and that sort of thing. So yeah, that's a bit of the background. I mean, that's how I ended up there this weekend. I emailed them and said, Hey, you guys doing the class this year? And if so, can I join and tag along? I'd love to take a camera under the ice this time.
James So I guess let's start with gear. So the basic gear when you want to go scuba diving in, let's say a medium to tropical environment would be, you know, some, some light exposure suit, a BC regs tank, and then your personal kit, the fins, the mask, the snorkel, et cetera. What part of that gets vastly complicated by wanting to dive at, you know, whatever, whatever the water temperature is like two or three Celsius?
Jason Heaton Well, I guess two things, you have to have cold water rated regulator because The real danger of diving when you're that close to the freezing point, because as you're inhaling and the air is under pressure anyway, there's this effect where everything gets super chilled anyway. And then if you're putting it under very, very cold water, the mechanism inside the regulator can actually freeze open and then it'll free flow your tank. So you gush out all your tank very quickly and lose all of your air. They make these sealed regulators and these aren't uncommon. Um, I think you probably have one and I have one because I do a lot of great lakes diving and that's quite cold as well. So that's one aspect of it. The other aspect is, is just keeping yourself warm. When I took the class, I had already, you know, been diving in a dry suit and, and with one exception, everybody in the class also wears dry suits. There's, there's, there's one guy that was in a wetsuit. There was one guy there yesterday, sorry, on Saturday who, I share what shows up in a, in a, like a seven mil farmer, John and jacket style, um, thick wetsuit. And he's the same guy that I got certified with for ice diving. What? Eight years ago, nine years ago. And he was wearing a wetsuit then. And everybody's like, Oh, you're crazy. And he was kind of one of those kind of, I don't want to say macho. He was just kind of one of those guys that was sort of proudly, um, a little bit different from the rest, you know, like, Oh yeah. Like a shorts guy. Yeah.
James The guy that wears shorts all through. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I love shorts guys.
Jason Heaton Yeah. Right. Right. So, you know, he's the only guy that wore a wetsuit out of, I would say there were eight to 10 divers this past weekend. Uh, and, and all of us were in dry suits and, and that's the thing, you know, so what I wore was, it's a bit complicated because when you get to the lake, there's a certain amount of prep that is done, you know, for like an hour to an hour and a half before you can even think about getting in the water. So first of all, a hole has to be cut in two feet thick ice and then This group, you can tell they've done it for a while because they're pretty, they've gotten very smart with their setup. They, uh, the guy who runs the class, he's an Australian, um, named RJ and, and he has a surplus operation desert storm army tent. It's this huge, very heavy tent, military tent, and he brings it out. And then once the hole is cut in the ice, all of us help to erect this very big, very heavy tent over the hole so that you're protected when you're suiting up Uh, going diving and then you've got a person standing outside with the other end of the rope, which I'll get to in a bit. But, um, so that keeps things reasonably warm because then he also brings kerosene heaters to put inside the tent. So it's kind of a cozy environment, but in order to get to that point and Saturday was quite chilly. Uh, the air temperature was zero Fahrenheit. I think that's like minus 17 centigrade. So it was cold and you're out in a lake, so it's windy. So what I did was I wore. my outfit from kind of skin outwards was, uh, some smart wool or, or Merino wool base layer, thermal underwear. And, um, and then I went with a, a fleece union suit. So like, you know, one piece zip up suit. Uh, and then I wore a wool sweater, actually my, my triple lot, uh, overlord sweater. I wore that under the union suit on top. And then I had three pairs of socks. I had, um, kind of a thinner, pair of ski socks, smart wool ski socks. And then I had a two mil pair of neoprene socks over that. And then a really thick pair of like boot socks over the top of that. And this year, what I did for the first time was I used, you know, these chemical toe warmers that you expose to air and then you stick it on your sock for sure. And I had that between stuck to the neoprene sock under the heavy boot sock, right on top of my toes. And that made a big difference because then I was wearing like bogs. I don't know if you know the brand bogs. They're like kind of Welly style, big rubber boots. And I pulled on some like just camouflage kind of baggy or pants that I've got over the union suit and then wore a Patagonia retro X fleece vest over the top of the union suit and a cap. And then these big leather hardware store chopper mittens for the setup. And then when it came time to dive strip off kind of the outer stuff and then pulled on my my dry suit, um, which is a diving concepts, very heavy duty dry suit that I had just had kind of resealed with a new zipper and new boots put on it. So right. I was actually quite warm. It did perform well.
James I, um, you do dry gloves. I saw you with blue, blue glove covers. So I assumed you were dry gloves.
Jason Heaton Yeah. I, I tried something new this year and I've always, I've tried dry gloves in the past with mixed success. I just haven't found quite the right pair. And, and for those who are listening that aren't familiar with, dry gloves, wet gloves, you know, wet gloves are thick neoprene gloves. So when your hands get in the water, they do get wet. Um, but the thickness of the neoprene is what kind of insulates your fingers. But when it's this cold, uh, nothing really can keep your fingers that warm. So what a lot of people do is they wear dry gloves, which lock on or seal up against the wrist cuff of your dry suit. And then you can wear liner gloves underneath and your hands stay dry and thus warmer than if they get wet. And, I really wanted to get some dry gloves this year because especially because I was using, I wanted to take the Nikon in an underwater housing under the ice and I really wanted to be able to use my fingers and not get so cold. So scuba pro sells these dry gloves called easy Don dry gloves and they're, they're really slick. They're, they're like any kind of dry glove. They're, they're a thick rubber with a very textured feel to them so you can grip things. And then, um, they have a, a, a tight fitting rubber cuff. That when you kind of punch your hand into the glove, you push your hand in as far as it can. And then that rubber cuff gets as far up on your wrist as you can. And then you sort of pull it out so that it's, it's, it's perfectly sealed against the, the, the rubber seal on your wrist of your, of your dry suit. And boy, that made a huge difference. It was such a game changer for me. My, my hands stayed warm, they stayed dry. So really all that gets wet and cold is your head. And I was wearing a five mil thick hood. And then my dive mask. And so what, what gets cold is then as your, your cheeks and your lips and, and they kind of go numb, but you know, that's, that's it. I, I couldn't have dressed any better. It was, it was a perfect exposure setup.
James Yeah. When I, when I first got kind of up to speed on the dry suit stuff in Vancouver and what was the water temperature where you're
Jason Heaton Um, you know, I didn't actually wear a dive computer cause it wasn't deep enough to really necessitate one, but I would say it was probably, you know, it has to be just above freezing 33, 34 Fahrenheit.
James Yeah. So I think like the coldest I ever, my Suunto ever showed me was like four Celsius in, you know, diving around, around Vancouver. And that was at depth on Porto Cove, like in January. And I remember when I did the dry suits there, cause I had a bear, have a bear next gen, which is like an entry level rental style dive suit, uh, dry suit. Yeah. I went on the recommendation of like what the other instructors are using. Cause a lot of them are using the same suit and you've seen like where basically it's just two rings.
Unknown Yeah.
James Yeah. That, so you have one that goes inside the cuff and then one that slots over it. And then all you're doing is taking, we were using dish gloves, like heavy dish washing gloves and you'd need help. I could, I'd never figured out how to do it alone. Um, one of the instructors could, But you could put one on, but the other one you have to, you basically drag it until it's pulled all the way over the outer ring. Right. And then that's good enough. Yeah. And then, then you just have to not be like me and reach out and grab the rusting metal hull of a boat and puncture the glove.
Unknown Yeah.
Jason Heaton Yeah. Yeah. When dry gloves fail, it's catastrophic. You're then you're soaked.
James Yeah. Well, it's not even soaked is one thing. It was also, I had like almost like a squeeze on my hand the whole time. Right. Right. So my hand came out all kind of veiny and looked a little weird for, for a few minutes. Uh, that's a stressful, but everything was fine. Yeah. Um, well that's good. I'm, I'm glad that worked out. And then I think you alluded to it. How, how did the camera perform any differently than any other scenario?
Jason Heaton Well, the, the camera itself worked fine. I had set it up the night before. Um, you know, this is a, this is a Nikon Z seven, uh, mirrorless, uh, what was a fairly top end a couple of years ago. Um, really a fantastic camera. And then, um, we have, you know, Gashani and I have been using it in a Nauticam housing and I love Nauticam housings. They, they work really well. So, so that'll work fine. I set it up the night before and then I put a couple of lights on. I w we haven't been using strobes lately. I've got these very high powered Kraken brand. video lights, which is just constant lighting and they're, they're super bright. And, and when you're under the ice, all color goes away very quickly. It's dark, obviously. And then everything would just sort of be gray scale and you'd have to be using slower shutter speeds, really high ISO to get decent photos. So I wanted some light. And so I had these lights on there. Now everything worked fine. The batteries kind of went flat by the end of the dive on the lights, which is fine. I got what I needed, but the issue is this, this camera, um, it has a very big dome, uh, port on the front. And thus it has weird buoyancy characteristics and combine that with a lot of fluffy layers under a air filled dry suit. Yeah. And having lost a fair amount of weight over the past year, my, my buoyancy was not dialed in at all. And so I had to attempt to descend through the ice hole three times. I had to come back and have them add weight by strapping. How much weight did you have to go up to? So I started with 26 pounds and I think they must've added another eight pounds or something. I mean, it was way more weight than I've ever used. It was bizarre. And at some point somebody said, I think your deflation, your vent valve on your shoulder of your dry suit, I think it might be frozen shut. So my suit wasn't venting all of the air that was in it, which was part of the problem. But once I got the weight sorted, it was fine, but it was, it was a bit of a struggle. And then the camera kind of adds to it because you're also tethered to the surface and to the other divers with a pretty thick rope. And when you're kind of struggling to descend and swim down and you have a camera that's sort of trying to go up again, and then with these arms with lights on them that get sort of tangled in the rope, it was, it was a bit of a struggle until I got close to the bottom, which is a there, it's only about a 30 foot depth.
James Right. So, I think, I think it's worth developing a little bit of context for people who have never figured out weight for their, especially when they're into the dry suit space. Cause this was something that was like, I still have all my notes. I looked it up before this, when I would dry suit dive, I learned that I, I don't know if you know, Ziegle, the, the company that makes the BCs, I have a Ziegle, a Ziegle stiletto, which if I had more than 27 pounds of weight, it would, I would have to max, the Z Eagle to slow my descent, like so much so that it would start venting. Oh, yeah, yeah.
Unknown Which is kind of scary, right? Yeah.
James So you'd have to wait. You'd have to plan because then once your tank lightened, it would work again.
Unknown Mm-hmm.
James But there's a weird math to picking out how much weight you need. It's hyper personal.
Unknown Yeah.
James If you get into scuba diving, especially if you get into scuba diving with a dry suit, don't let somebody tell you how much weight you should use. Practice. Yeah. Do weight checks, right? Because you wanna run the weight check after your first dive, when your tank is maybe at 500 PSI, something like that. And you want to make sure that there's a balance there that works, because then that pays forward when you're running a full tank. And I found that if I put too many layers on underneath my dry suit, I needed too much weight for my BC. And my cousin, Brendan, who I do a lot with, he had the same brand, Ziegle, but he had a Ranger. And a Ranger had like 34 pounds or maybe 44 pounds of lift. Yeah. I think it's 44 pounds on a Ranger and like 34, something like that in a stiletto. This is years ago.
Unknown Yeah.
James And, and the stiletto is nice cause you can put it in your, in your suitcase.
Unknown Yeah. It's tiny.
James Yeah. Right. But the Ranger was probably what I should have bought, um, for, for diving around there. Uh, but yeah, I had to be really conscious of how many fleecy puffy layers I had, how much air was in my dry suit.
Unknown Yeah.
James Um, which, which means in the end you're either choosing an easier buoyancy profile and this is without a camera, which is why I'm bringing this up. but an easier buoyancy profile through the dive that becomes more predictable the longer you're diving and there's less air in your tank.
Unknown Yeah.
James Um, or you're cold, right? Right. Or sorry, you're, you're cold. You get one or the other. You can't be, so you need to really, there's some considerations in this that are the, and the math isn't going to be the same from one person to another. You'd brought up that you'd lost some weight and the, the sort of muscle to fat ratio of your body. combined with the capacity of your lungs. And I'm a very leg heavy person. Yeah. So I have to wait more than you might've expected when I weighed 175 pounds. Yeah. And then, you know, you end up on, like when I went to Clipperton, I had to learn that like I could literally dive with three pounds. Right. Yeah. Because I was wearing almost no exposure suit and it would just, you're just accounting for the weight of the tank at a certain point in the changing weight of the tank, basically. It's a fascinating little science, but it was one of my most, my most points of curiosity was like, how did you find the buoyancy between your weight loss, all those layers? And then the camera that's complicated. Yeah. And it's something that you have to like practice and make little notes and know how much you need. Yeah.
Jason Heaton Yeah. And I think, you know, when people ask, you know, what, what sort of information do you log in your dive log after you dive? And over the years I've gotten pretty reliant on, on what my Garmin will put in the app, which is kind of the basics of depth and time and that sort of thing. Um, but it's so important to make note of, of how much weight you used with all the different configurations. I mean, that's with camera, with a sweater and the union suit and long underwear or not with the sweater and not with, you know, so it's, it's tricky. And, and having this being only my, my kind of third ice dive outing, and then with these new dry gloves and everything, you know, it's, it's, it's complicated. And I think, you know, it's complicated by the fact that you're going through a very small hole in the ice. tied to two other guys and the surface. Yeah. You know, you're just, you're task loading, you're adding layers of complication to the whole process. Now that said, once you're underwater, neutrally buoyant, horizontal, you know, swimming along, it's fantastic. And it's, it's like nothing else to, to look up and see this overhead ceiling of ice. I think that's why it's worth the trouble is because there's no more, you know, short of, I suppose, cave diving. no more unique form of diving to me than, than being under a frozen lake. And right. And what I find is people are like, Oh, well, what do you see down there? I mean, everything, the vegetation is, there is some, but much of it has died off. There isn't a lot of fish life, particularly in this Lake and the bottom is just sort of mucky. But what's interesting is what's above you. And it's so nice to like just be swimming along and just look up and see how all of your exhalations kind of dance around these, these big, you know, globular amorphous groups of bubbles that are dancing around trying to find a way out, uh, on the underside of the ice combined with the sunlight that penetrates through the snow. It's, it's really an otherworldly look to it. I mean, you can see the underside of vehicles that are parked on the lake. Uh, one of the things that, that, uh, you might notice if, uh, I've put up a few photos on Instagram, but, but you know, if you look at closely, You can see that one of the preparations that we do when we're getting ready to go under is not only do you cut the main hole where everybody goes in, but then you have to auger air holes around so that the excellent exhaled bubbles don't just find their way to the main hole and just gush out and get everybody soaking wet who's standing there. It's quite a lot of air. And so there's these augered air holes that are kind of done out in a radius from, from the main hole. And then, um, for safety we shovel, um, I guess what you'd call spokes in the snow from the hole radiating outward in multiple directions with, and then you shoveled these kind of crude arrowheads pointing back towards the hole so that if you came off of the line for some reason and got lost, you could look up and the sunlight would penetrate through these arrowheads that are pointing you back towards the hole so you could find your way to safety. And I think it, it's a lot of work. It's not something I want to be doing multiple times a winter or even every year. But there is something about going back and doing this that is, that's appealing for that really unique form of diving and just the adventure of it all.
James Right. I'm curious. So you, you get in and, and it's kind of like glacier travel where you're on a line, right? Yeah. Yeah. So it's wonderful.
Jason Heaton And there's a leader? So what they do is they put ice, an ice screw, In the, in the, in the ice outside the tent that we're in. So it's kind of a ways behind the hole. Uh, and then this one long kind of main rope has these kind of three feeder ropes. I guess it would be two feet of ropes because the, the, the lead diver carabiners this, the, the end of that main rope to his harness. And then the two other divers have these kind of leader ropes that, that are looped around the main rope and can slide up and down on it. Oh, and then we, so we each have one of those clipped to our, our harness as well with the carabiner. And then you sit at three corners of the triangular hole that's cut in the ice. And then first the, the lead diver goes in and descends and goes under. And then the number two diver goes in and the number three diver goes in and the lead diver is responsible for kind of maintaining the. The radius of the, of the arc that you're going to follow as you're, as you're swimming around. And then on the other end of the rope, standing on the ice back inside the tent is the rope tender. And the communication between the lead diver and the tender is done with tugs on the rope. So a single tug given by the tender is repeated back by the lead diver who basically says, I'm okay. Two tugs is let out some slack, three tugs is take in some slack. And then four tugs is crisis mode, emergency, we've Somebody is free flowing, you know, pull us back in kind of thing. And, uh, and so, you know, that's how it's done. And then what the tender needs to do is maintain a certain amount of, um, tension on the rope so that it's not dragging along on the bottom so that they can actually communicate with, with tugs on the rope. And, uh, so it makes it a little tricky underwater. I mean, it gives you a sense of security certainly, but also there's a tendency and, you know, I got kicked in the face a couple of times cause I got a little too close to the lead diver. I was the number two diver. Um, and also, you know, especially the camera arms getting a little tangled in the rope or, um, you know, you're kind of tripping over it. I mean, you're not used to diving, you know, tethered to, to a rope and to two other divers typically.
James So that makes it a little more complicated, but also a lot safer. But yeah, running the camera and having a tether, the idea of being tied to something when diving is kind of like a natural thing to be kind of scared of. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. You know, I know I know you meet people on on dive trips and stuff who won't even use the lead line that goes up to the front of the boat. Oh, you prefer to get some distance from the boat and and swim around under their own power. Mm-hmm You know, it's it's it's not like a superstition thing It's just like a comfort thing and and and wanting to maintain a comfortable distance from a lot of stuff when you're diving. Yeah That's a that's fascinating and all in all how long were you how long read under?
Jason Heaton It was, it was probably about roughly a 25 minute dive. They, they try to limit it to that. Um, obviously because for the class, you know, they've got students that need to keep cycling in and out of the water and they need to get through. Uh, the students I think have to do three, I think you have to do three full dives, uh, three or four to kind of get your certification. Okay. And you know, with a dozen people or whatever, I mean, you'd be there for a very long time and, and of course you're getting cold between dives. Uh, and, and gear kind of gets frozen and that sort of thing. So it's, it's kind of a, a process of, of time management for the people running the class and for the amount of students. And what I've thought is every time I do this, I think it's so much work for so little time underwater, but I think that's because what I'm doing is I'm tagging along with a class of students and I'm just there for fun. I get one dive in and that's it. And so it seems like a lot of work for, for not much payback. But if, if, if I knew somebody with a long chainsaw and I had an ice screw and a rope and a buddy, I mean, conceivably you could go and just, you know, cut a hole in ice. You could be diving within, within half an hour, um, and, and do a couple of dives and whatever. You wouldn't have to set up a tent. You wouldn't have to, you know, do all of that extra stuff. Um, so there's, there are trade-offs I think for, for comfort, they do all of these extra things and for safety and for, for, training students. But, uh, if, if I were to take up ice diving more regularly, I would, I would definitely get, you know, uh, a chainsaw and a buddy and an ice screw and a rope and just kind of go to it.
James Uh, I guess, you know, the other, the other thing I'm curious about is like, you know, you set up a tent and you do all this, is there any sort of, uh, you know, uh, uh, a food, a food tray, uh, a spread of some sort of you bringing, bringing your own eats. Cause I mean, doing anything in the cold, you're going to be hungry. Yeah.
Unknown Yeah.
James Especially if you're, if you're have to do three or four dives in the day, like you're going to have to keep topping up.
Jason Heaton Yeah. I mean, I, so this place is close to an hour from home and I drove the defender, which doesn't have a lot of heat and it was a very cold day. So I drove out there with all my gear, drove out on the Lake and of course you want to space the vehicles out. So it's this weird scene of trucks and cars that are scattered all over around this tent because you don't want, you know, 5,000 pound vehicle, parked next to another 5,000 pound vehicle, uh, on, on two feet of ice. Um, so there's a lot of back and forth hauling gear around and I had filled a flask with some hot tea and then I just brought some energy bars thinking, okay, I'll, you know, I'll just be out here for a few hours. I had a good hearty breakfast before I left. Um, but, but then I didn't actually dive. I got there at nine 30 in the morning. I didn't actually get in the water until like two in the afternoon. Oh, wow. Okay. So there's a lot of standing and sitting around now it's, it's inside the tent and I didn't really get that hungry, but before I, about an hour before my dive time came up, I was getting a little hungry and I had a couple of energy bars in the, in the truck. So I went out and dug it out. Of course it was, it was like a tooth buster, you know, it was just frozen like a brick. The tea stayed hot in this, uh, hydro flask flask that I had, but the, yeah, it was, I did not plan well for that. I, I'm not sure how I would have, I guess kept anything warm. Some guys bring, you know, like gas station sandwiches. I saw some people kind of unwrapping that sort of thing inside the tent and for sure. Energy bars and, and you know, trail mix and that sort of thing. I think that would be probably the way I would go in the future is bring some kind of a salty snack sort of thing to kind of munch on.
James I want like some spicy Jamaican patties or something. Yeah, right. Raise your internal temperature. Give me a, give me a nice curry. Yeah, right, right. That's great. This is this sounds really cool. I don't know if it's something I would necessarily want to do. Yeah, once for sure.
Unknown Yeah, exactly.
James Once for sure. Yeah. So I understand your your like, here and there sort of interest, you know, to do it every now and then. Yeah, it's kind of a special thing. That's cool. Yeah. And do you think you'll you'll put the photos up for swim proof or a story at some point?
Jason Heaton Yeah, I'm toying with the idea of making that my, my post for this week for, for swim proof, uh, over on sub stack, um, with a few photos, I think it's interesting enough that people want to see. And I've put a few up on Instagram and I was really glad that, you know, despite the, the amount of work and the little time underwater, I was really glad finally that I was able to bring a proper camera underwater. You know, in the past, I've always just tucked a GoPro in and it just, it never did the justice. I couldn't take good still photos and the video was always kind of hit and miss. And so. That was kind of mission accomplished for me was to have some proper lights and a good camera. And I'm pretty pleased with the handful of photos that came out of it. So yeah, I'll, I'll put those up. We'll, we'll link those. We can even put a couple in the, in the show notes and uh, for sure. Kind of do that.
James So, yeah.
Unknown Very cool. Yeah.
James Well, that's great. And I guess, uh, if anyone has any more specific questions, the great NATO at gmail.com and, uh, and let us know, or if you have a question about diving and you want, and you're on the supporter crew and you'd like to get it into the Q and a, we're just, just putting the final touches on the first Q and a, uh, that'll go up towards the end of the month now. Uh, so please get your questions in, send them to, uh, the great NATO at gmail.com. Uh, you know, record a voice memo, try and keep it under a minute and then send that file to the email address and we will add it to the list. You won't get a confirmation that we got the, the message, but we're, we get, we process all of them by hand and get them into a folder and then work on them from there. So that's awesome. And Jason, I'm glad you had a good time and came out not too cold and you know, ready, ready to do it again in a couple of years. Yeah. All digits intact.
Unknown Yeah.
Jason Heaton How about some final notes? Yeah, I'll go first because it's somewhat relevant to our main topic. This actually came a while back from a listener, Michael Douglas. I don't know if he's the actor, Michael Douglas, but Michael Douglas. Probably the actor. Probably. And this was from, uh, a website called woodenboat.com and, and the, the, uh, I believe it's for, you know, kind of vintage boat, you know, kind of enthusiasts and collectors and builders and sailors. And it was called Maud returns home. And, and Maud was the name of the Norwegian polar explorer rolled Amundsen's final boat. So he had, um, the from, and he had, uh, the, the Zowa, I think it was called. And then he had, Um, the mod and he used these for a number of his expeditions. And while the other two had been restored and displayed at various museums in Norway, the mod was, was lost. Uh, it had been actually after he was done using it, it was sold to some kind of a, an Arctic transport company in the West coast of Canada, actually, where it was being used to transport goods up and down the West coast of Arctic Canada. And, and it ultimately sank and it was underwater, um, until I believe the 1990s when there was some interest expressed in raising it and bringing it back to Norway and restoring it to a certain degree for display. And this is a, this is a really cool article. It was a really long article. And I think the reason I waited so long to post is because I wanted to take the time and read it and, and it has some amazing photos in it. But first of all, you know, they had to raise this, uh, I guess it would be about a hundred year old ship now, uh, wooden, you know, I think it was iron reinforced for ice breaking ship, um, from very frigid water, a Canadian waters, Arctic waters, uh, you know, refloat it safely and then tow it all the way from West coast of Canada, back through the Northwest passage towards the East, across the North Atlantic to Norway on a barge where it was then restored. And, and this whole story of how this was done is just, uh, Yeah. Yeah. And they show it like plunging through these, you know, big choppy waves on the sea flying this really dramatic flag. And, and, uh, yeah, it's, it's quite the impressive story. I mean, you know, we talk about ice diving and these guys that, that actually refloated, it had to, you know, dive in, in Arctic waters and, and put, um, slings and flotation devices to, to raise this up off the sea floor. And then they put it onto a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a barge that they had to partially sink to get it underneath the slung wreck. And then kind of fill that with air to raise that to the surface and then the whole restoration of it. So really a great piece. And Michael, thanks for, for sending that apologies for, for waiting so long to get that up. But I think it's a pretty timeless piece and pretty fitting to a pretty fitting read for, for midwinter. So.
James I agree. Super cool. Yeah. Yeah, I definitely need to dig into that. I'm pouring over these images now. That's some good stuff. Yeah. Great story. Yeah. All right. How about you? Mine is a new documentary of which we've received several notices about, and it was on my list to watch from the day it came out. It's called Torn, and it's by Max Lowe, who's Alex Lowe's eldest son. Alex Lowe was Conrad Anker's climbing partner until he passed in 1999 in an avalanche on Ship Shimanga. And it's a documentary about, you know, this guy losing his dad when he was eight or nine years old, I guess. And then, of course, Conrad would eventually step up as sort of a stepfather, marry Alex's wife and become a father to his three boys. And it's a it's a really beautiful, but very like emotionally challenging documentary. I still I watched it just last night, so it's very fresh in my memory and I don't. I'm not 100% sure I know what they wanted to get out of it. It felt like catharsis or therapy at some points. It felt like conversations they hadn't have but shouldn't should have had at some point. You know, if you love if you love adventure documentaries, I'm not sure that this is going to scratch the same itch as Valley Uprising or Maru or The Rescue or Free Solo or anything like that. This is a lot more internal, deeply, deeply personal, kind of gut-wrenchingly sad at parts. But if you're a fan of Conrad and certainly of Alex back in the day, I think it's definitely worth watching. Jason and I are massive fans of Conrad, a lovely guy. In the few times I've been able to correspond with him, and of course a talented climber and what seems like a very decent man. But it's a, it's a, you know, it's, it's rehashing pain, right? This was, this was a scenario in which they didn't have his body and there was, the kids were very young and there's a sense of kind of a loss of closure or delayed onset of closure, if you will. Jason, you watched it too. I don't, I don't really know how much I want to say. Like, I think people should just see it if they're interested. It's, it's very nicely made. I think Max does a really good job of highlighting various aspects and capturing the history, especially telling the story of his father's last decade, you know, of his father's time as a father and a climber. They do both of those. They do that part really well. The kind of reckoning that happens in the third act of the film, I found very hard to watch, which I suppose is kind of the point, right? There's very real, raw, sort of familial emotions. Um, where, where did you kind of land on it? Cause I think you watched it last night as well.
Jason Heaton Yeah, I did. I, I agree with you. I think the best way to present it to, to listeners, um, is to recommend it with some, um, warning that you're right. It isn't, it isn't going to be in Meru or, or any, or, you know, free solo.
James This is, this is almost the antithesis of 14P.
Jason Heaton Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's, it's, it's a difficult viewing. Um, I think for me, the, the first bit, first third, I guess for maybe first half of the movie about Alex Lowe was interesting, very, you know, flawed, but extremely talented climber, fascinating guy, a guy that I remember, you know, when I was a teenager, um, you know, reading about and kind of seeing what he was all about and hearing these stories. And then I remember when he died and it was in the news and, and sort of kind of revisit some of the incredible old photos and footage that they have of his days climbing was, was great. I really enjoyed that. And, and you know, you and I are well familiar with Conrad, and his work and know him from that side of things. But then, you know, the, the, the emotional trauma of, of how his death and, and the kind of reconfiguring of their family impacted the kids was, uh, kind of took a turn towards the, I don't want to say dark. Um, but it was sad. It was challenging. Super real. Like super real. And there's a rawness to it. Yeah. Yeah. So just, just with that, with that warning or the, or that caveat, I think it is a good, a good one to watch.
James And clearly that some of these conversations, they're very clear. They're like ones that were long, long overdue and they did them with a camera, which is not, that's I'm never, I would not take part in that. So the amount of bravery between Max and Conrad, the whole family, really, I found kind of jaw dropping to put this online, to put this in, in, in a national geographic documentary. That's, you know, it's feature length. It's 93 minutes, something like that. Yeah. Very brave, very personal, um, rewarding, but, but challenging. I think is how I would say it. I think if you're, if you know these people's names, if you're curious about this part of this side of the climbing community and the kind of tension of being a member of a family and a provider for a family, and also someone who really lived to be in the mountains, I think it is a fascinating character study that shows that those, that there's generations to, to that, that sort of passion. Right.
Jason Heaton Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's a good pick. And I think it is definitely one that, that it's worth viewing. And we certainly heard from a lot of people, um, that said, yeah, we did. You really should watch this. And one of the people that wrote to us said, this is a tough watch. And indeed it was, but, uh, yeah, I think that's a very, uh, appropriate final note. And it was a, it was a good film, just tough to watch.
James It's another one that's on that's on Disney plus. So, you know, that's where you can see the rescue at this point, the value of that, of that subscription is getting pretty high in my world. Yeah. There's a lot of nature documentaries, which my kids are pretty obsessed with. Um, there's lots of stuff for, for a varied audience. And then this national geographic tie-in means they're getting the good stuff.
Unknown Yeah.
James Uh, like, like the rescue like torn. Um, so yeah, I, uh, you know, it's, it's not like they're sponsoring us, but I'm pretty impressed with what they've managed to put together in, in, in a time when I can't seem to find anything I really care about on Netflix.
Jason Heaton Right. True enough. All right. Well, um, that was a, that was a fun episode. It was, I hope people enjoyed the ice diving discussion and we've both had a couple of cool watches on our wrist these past couple of days. So very cool.
James As always. Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you want to subscribe to the show notes, get into the comments for each episode or consider directly supporting the show and maybe even grabbing yourself a new TGN signed NATO, please visit the graynado.com. Other than that, music throughout is siesta by Jazz Art via the Free Music Archive.
Jason Heaton And we leave you with this quote, fittingly from Roald Amundsen, who said,