The Grey Nato - EP 18 - In Focus: Take Better Photos

Published on Tue, 27 Sep 2016 09:04:37 -0400

Synopsis

The episode covers various aspects of photography, including camera gear, techniques, and recommendations for different genres like underwater photography. Jason and James discuss their respective camera setups - Jason being a Nikon user and James using Canon. They share tips on choosing the right camera and lenses based on one's needs and budget, emphasizing that the gear is less important than practice and understanding the fundamentals of photography. The discussion also touches on underwater photography, with Jason providing insights into his experience shooting with different housings and strobes. In the end, they stress that the best camera is the one you have with you, and learning to use it effectively is key.

James shares his excitement about acquiring a vintage Seiko World Time watch, and they mention a few other notable items like a book on adventure photography and a blog recommendation.

Transcript

Speaker
Jason Heaton Welcome to episode 18 of the Graynado, a loose discussion of travel, adventure, diving, gear, and most certainly watches.
James Stacy I'm Jason Heaton. And I'm James Stacy. Today's topic is photography. So cameras, lenses, underwater shooting, Instagram, GoPro, you name it. Jason and I are fairly avid photographers, but have actually come at this hobby slash profession from two different perspectives. One of us shoots Canon, one Nikon. I shoot mostly watches and cars, while Jason's cameras cover a wider range of subjects. I try and keep up with it from the Canon perspective, but I buy gear very slowly and I keep it for a very long time because I have kind of very specialized uses. So Jason, what's kind of your main kit and what sort of subjects do you typically photograph with that kit?
Jason Heaton Well, as you mentioned, I'm sort of a, what they call a Nikon shop here. And to sort of preface all of this by saying I do a lot of the photography work that happens here is with, with my wife and kind of photography partner, Ghoshani, who, you know, if you followed me on Instagram, you see a lot of photos that she's taken of, of me diving or of watches that I'm reviewing for different publications. So Ghoshani is actually the primary shooter in our house. But I do, uh, take the occasional press trip or, or just, uh, go on various adventures and take a camera with me. But we're, we're kind of a Nikon house. I think, you know, when it comes to gear, people tend to come down on one side or the other when it comes to a specific brand, simply because, um, depending on the, the type of camera that you choose, you're kind of limited to a specific lens or mount for, for the cameras that you have. And once you start investing in lenses, you know, it adds up fairly quickly. And if you switch over from say Nikon to Sony or Nikon to Canon or vice versa, you end up kind of having to ditch or sell your entire collection of gear and then start over again. So we started down the Nikon path a few years ago, starting with like a D 70 S, which was an old crop sensor, probably a six megapixel camera at this point, uh, moved on to a D 7,000, which was a fairly good step up. Again, a crop sensor camera. We bought an underwater housing for that and started our underwater shooting with that camera. And then we kind of made the big leap to a full frame camera. And we'll talk a little bit about, you know, the differences between crop sensor and full frame cameras in a minute here. But our current Quiver consists of kind of two, well actually three primary cameras. One is the Nikon D800, which is a, it's a bit of a monster. It's a full frame, 36 megapixel, full-frame camera SLR that Nikon made a few years ago they've now up to I think the D810 is the replacement for it. That camera is used primarily for kind of stuff where you need high resolution for cropping or for a lot of detail in photos because of the high megapixel count so we kind of limit that to studio or close-up shots of watches. The downfall of that camera or the kind of limitation of that camera is because of that sensor with all of those megapixels on it, it doesn't do very well in low light. So if we're doing anything sort of more quote-unquote photojournalistic where you're shooting, you know, in varying light conditions or where you can't always control your lighting, we have the D4S, which is Nikon's kind of flagship photojournalist camera. And that only has a, it's a 16 megapixel sensor in it. But it does really well in low light, has a really high frame rate. I think it can shoot 11 frames per second. So that's kind of our go-to in the field camera. The third camera that we have is a Sony A7 Mark II, which just came out last year or earlier this year. And they made three versions of the A7. They made an A7R, which stands for resolution, which is, I believe that one's also 36 megapixels, or is that one even higher? I can't remember. But then they also have the A7S, which stands for Sensitivity, which is their low-light camera. We just have kind of the middle-of-the-road A7 Mark II, which is kind of splits the difference. It does really well in various conditions. The advantage of that Sony is it's a super light camera. It's a mirrorless camera, so it's not an SLR like the Nikons, but it does allow you to interchange lenses. And Sony, even though they have kind of a limited quiver of lenses, the lenses that they have are really good. And so we generally, we bought that camera specifically to use for underwater photography because it's a small form factor and you can get a really good Nauticam housing for it. So it's become kind of our go-to underwater camera. But then because you're traveling when you're diving, typically when you take it out of the housing, you can use it topside as well. And it's a really light, great portable, just sling it over the shoulder, hike with it, put it in a backpack kind of camera. So those are kind of our three go-to cameras. I also have an old Nikon DF, which I bought a few years ago because I'm kind of a, you know, if you haven't noticed from the show, I'm a bit of a Luddite. I kind of like my, my manual switches and, um, and dials and things. And the DF was a camera that Nikon came out with that sort of had the appearance of an old film camera, but yet it was a, it's a full frame, uh, SLR, uh, digital SLR. So I haven't used that camera much. I'm probably going to sell it. Um, So I don't really kind of include that in sort of our current quiver of cameras that we use. But it was it was fun to use. But if anyone's interested, get in touch. I'd love to love to part with that one. James, you're on the Canon side. I know you just kind of upgraded to the 5D earlier this year. I think it was right.
James Stacy Yeah. So after after many, many years with a 7D, which is a crop sensor, I assume a lot of people who would be listening to a podcast about cameras know the difference between full frame and crop. The practical difference is a crop sensor is a smaller sensor that essentially magnifies the focal distance of the lens. So for Canon, and I just don't know Nikon, I think Nikon's 0.4, for Canon it's 0.6. So a 100 millimeter EF lens on a full frame will be good for 160 on a crop sensor. It's not that interesting, really, and I'm not sure it even matters to the majority of shooters. And in fact, if you're mostly shooting watches, the crop sensor may actually get you essentially more zoom, gets you closer to your subject. But with a full frame, you get a larger sensor, which typically means better sensitivity and a higher resolution. And I had the opportunity recently to move from a 7D to a 5D, which takes you into kind of the Canon prosumer, entry-level professional models with the Mark III. They just recently announced the Mark IV. I have kind of a general disdain for camera gear, unless you really believe that the new piece of kit will actually make your photos better. Like you found some describable, provable limitation. And that's where I had gotten with my 7D, but really only in terms of macro photography with watches and moving to the 5D freed up a greater, uh, depth of field, a more aggressive depth of field, I guess, and, uh, and the ability to shoot better video. So I do really like the 5D, but I don't think anybody listening needs to buy a 5D to make better watch photos or family photos or whatever. Typically the camera's just way less important than practice. Right. If you want to see that idea put to use, check out a guy, I'm sure lots of you have heard of him, Chase Jarvis. He had originally written a book called, I think it was something like The Best Camera Is The One You Have With You or something similar to that a few years ago. And they do all sorts of work with varying cameras. He's a professional photographer and a really kind of dynamic personality, an interesting guy. But he can take a fantastic photo with an old cell phone. It's about knowing how light operates. It's about knowing how to best use the gear that you have rather than expect the gear to make up for your lack of knowledge.
Jason Heaton Yeah. I feel like, you know, just to kind of amplify that point about, you know, not kind of getting too crazy about gear. I do think that, you know, we live in a time when, you know, we're seeing a lot of these mirrorless cameras, really excellent point and shoot cameras that I know both of us have had experience with the Sony RX100, which is a perfect example of that aphorism of, you know, the best camera is the one you have with you. It's such a great camera to kind of just tuck in a pocket. You know, an iPhone especially, I think, I don't have it, but the iPhone 7 is supposed to have better low light capabilities. So it's really these things where as cameras advance, it's those features that you need to look for that, for instance, my iPhone 6, does not do well in low light. That's the only reason I would buy an iPhone 7, which I don't plan to do. It's simply because if I'm shooting somewhere and it's a little bit darker and I want to just kind of pull out something and take a photo at a dinner or something like that, that would be better. But like with cars, you know, sports cars, for instance, oftentimes the limitations are with the driver or in this case, the photographer, not with the gear. I mean, you'll never see the limits of, you know, a Porsche 911. you know, GTS or something like that, as you would with, you know, you'll probably never explore the outer limits of, you know, a full frame Nikon D4S. I mean, it's just, it's too much. It's just too good of a camera. There are too many features. Um, so really kind of just focus on what are you shooting? What, what needs do you have and, and kind of let that drive what gear you get.
James Stacy Yeah, definitely. I think I got a little sidetracked there. I get a little ranty when it comes to gear. because I find that that's the most common question you'll get. You'll take a lovely photograph of something and people, oh, what, you must have a fantastic camera. And I mean, the truth is sometimes that photo came off of my Samsung Note 5. It takes a great photo if you give it enough light. Or my RX100. If I didn't shoot for, you know, a blog to watch or a nouveau mag, I would probably not have an SLR simply because the RX100 is like 80% of what you want from an SLR. but fits in a coat pocket and charges over USB. And it's pretty fuss-free, takes great video. If you find that the camera you have now is limiting your ability to take photographs, then sure, find another camera. But otherwise, go on YouTube and learn how to best use your camera. You know, if you have an entry-level SLR or a mirrorless or even something like an RX100, learn how to shoot manual. Right. And learn how to kind of judge a scene without needing the cameras, uh, you know, onboard exposure meter. But even if you just want to learn the basics, I mean, I remember kind of one of the first cameras where I really started to focus on photography was I had a Canon G7. Do you remember those? Kind of like a precursor. Those are great cameras. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, that one had a dial that would control the aperture and a dial that would control the, um, shutter speed and what you could do is essentially rotate either dial and see the effect that it had on the screen.
[no speaker identified] Yeah.
James Stacy And it was like a cheat to learning how changing your aperture changes not only the amount of light the camera's getting but the way that it looks at the scene. Right. And how aggressively it has to focus as you feed it less and less light.
[no speaker identified] Mm-hmm.
James Stacy And then the same with shutter speed. And when you learn to blend those, it starts, it starts to operate better and you can get more out of all cameras when you start to understand like that exposure triangle of shutter speed aperture and ISO. And, you know, beyond that, if you're into the SLR game, then awesome. The lenses that I use are fairly steadfast. I had to sell a couple lenses when I moved from the 7D to the 5D. So I still have my original 100mm f2.8 macro. This is what I shoot all of my watch review photos. I don't like to crop anything. I like to use the photo as it hits the sensor. And with the 100mm on a camera like the 5D, you just get a great big file that works really well for various adjustments. For cars, I use a 17-40mm F4L. It's a fairly inexpensive, but higher-end Canon lens. Maybe about $1,000 Canadian now. I think they're around $800 American. That lens responds really well to a good circular polarizing filter. If you're going to shoot cars, I would recommend at least having that filter available. They're not a huge investment, but they make a big difference in being able to manage reflection. So you can certainly read up on CPLs. And then finally, any wrist shot that you see from my Instagram or, you know, for Basel or SIHH is all on one lens. And I couldn't say enough good things about this lens. It's the 50 millimeter F 2.5 macro. And I don't know if there's an equivalent or similar lens on Nikon. I'm sure there is. That's usually how it works. But for the Canon, this is a fairly inexpensive, it's maybe $300. plastic lens. It's about a 30 year old design. It has this really loud focusing motor. It's a little inelegant, but it's razor sharp. Yeah. And at 50 millimeters on a full frame sensor, it's essentially perfect for wrist shots. So it's a very comfortable focal length to actually just shoot what's on your wrist. So when I go to a red bar event or when I go to cover a show, I always have that 50 with me. It doesn't work great for, say, taking pictures of people. You want something maybe a little longer for that. And of course, at 50, you're not getting a really wide angle. So really, with the 100 millimeter, the 17 to 40, and the 50 millimeter, I cover a fairly wide range. So whether I'm hiking, shooting a wrist shot, or getting some, you know, real crispy dial macros, I'm pretty much covered and I don't have to ever think. Currently, I can't imagine buying more lenses. I use the Canon 580 EX II flash. pretty much any wrist shot on Instagram, certainly anything at any of the shows, I use a flash.
Jason Heaton Yeah, I think flash use is one of those art forms that is sort of underappreciated. And I think it takes a, it takes real skill. Like Ghoshani's mastered the use of, of, you know, flashes and strobes, but I, I, I'm a, uh, self-admitted, um, sort of flash idiot. I, I, I'm terrible with a flash. I, I tend to sort of avoid situations where I need a flash, but I fully appreciate the use of them. I admire people that kind of can, can make it work. I will vouch for the use of, um, any sort of a diffuser or bouncing of light. Um, you can even buy these, um, diffusers that'll fit, you know, on board right on your... Yeah, like a Gary, a Gary Fong. Yes, exactly.
James Stacy Yeah. Yeah. I don't use any of those. I just fire it up at the ceiling. And then the trick that I typically use when I'm doing shows or if you see a wrist shot on, on, um, Instagram is I'll wear a white t-shirt. Oh yeah. or a shirt that's of a bright enough color to reflect some light into the underside of the watch. And then just shoot from kind of an oblique angle. And you get a lot of fall off light from the ceiling and the wall, and then some fill underneath. And when I'm at home, sometimes I'll actually just hold a pillow. Oh, sure. Kind of against my stomach. Yeah. And it fills in. So you can get a lot done with one flash or even no flashes. For many years before I had my 580, when I was, you know, just getting into shooting watches, I actually just bought a big piece of cardstock from a, you know, like a craft store.
[no speaker identified] Yeah.
James Stacy And then cut myself these little squares with little triangle stands. And you can actually position these squares to bounce light. And some of them I would cover with tinfoil. So, I mean, you're talking about like you can buy the professional version of these, like macro reflectors, but maybe $10 total, maybe. I mean, I didn't factor for the cost of the tinfoil that was already in my kitchen. Yeah. So like three or four bucks and some time, and then you could kind of set these up. So they were just outside the frame of your lens, but filled in all these blank spots. So then all you really needed was a really bright room. Natural light is fantastic. It's usually diffused, you know, at worst wait for really cloudy day. I find that lighting is usually great in bathrooms, typically, you know, white ceilings and maybe there's mirrors around things like that to get kind of more light. More light is better.
Jason Heaton Yeah. those clouded windows or sort of privacy windows that diffuse the light. Yeah.
James Stacy Yeah, for sure. And then, and then beyond that, my main accessories, you know, I use a Samsung note five and I love that phone. I love the format. It takes a decent photo. You get spoiled when you're used to a, an SLR, everything kind of sucks. The low light on my RX 100 is terrible in comparison, but it's excellent for what that camera is. So you kind of have to treat a camera for what it is. And the Note 5 does a great job. But I really like that I can take the memory card right out of my 5D, plug it into a card reader, plug the card reader into my Note, and then push the photo directly to Instagram. Sure. Yeah. Without ever actually copying the file. So that's kind of a strength of Android. You could do that on any Android phone. And I'm sure there's some methodology for doing it on iOS, although there's no file system in iOS. I'm not sure exactly how that works, but it's really easy in Android. And that's how we do these really nice crispy wrist shots at the shows is with a $5 card reader and a little like female USB to male USB micro adapter from Amazon. And, uh, and you can just plug whatever you want into the phone and it sees it kind of like a memory card, you know, like a USB drive. Sure. And you can just pull the files right from there. You don't have to copy it. Jason, do you have any like strong feelings about straps? Well ways to carry the camera because I really hate straps.
Jason Heaton Yeah, I mean, well, here's one tip that I've learned the hard way and that is if you're shooting anything reflective ie a watch don't wear a Colored strap don't wear something that is red or yellow or bright colored a lot of sure I cover I cover like all the logos on my camera in black tape Yeah, I mean, you get like... They show up in a crystal. The Nikon straps that come with the cameras are, you know, they've yellow writing on a black background, and that's just a big no-no. I have a couple of Peak Designs, you know, that's a brand we've talked about in the show. Peak Designs makes a really nice camera strap. It's the same material as seatbelts in cars, so it's that kind of thin, slippery, I guess it's a nylon, finely woven. Yeah, ultra-tight weave nylon. Yeah, and then it has this adjustment sort of handle or grip that, um, as you have it around your neck, it's on both sides and you sort of rotate up this little handle and then it just slides up and down very quickly, very easily, um, for quick kind of shortening or lengthening. So what I do is let's say I'm hiking with the, uh, the Sony a seven or with a Nikon is I've got the camera sort of slung sideways over my, over one shoulder. Like you'd carry like a messenger bag cross body. And then if I'm swinging it around, I can quickly just sort of shorten up the strap as I'm shooting. So it's kind of up higher on my chest and that works out really well. And what else is nice about that strap is that it has these quick release sort of little button attachments that go from the strap onto the sort of close to the camera where you loop through into the loops on the camera. It has these little button attachments. So let's say you're moving it onto a tripod or you want to move that strap onto a different camera. all you're moving around is the main strap itself. You just leave these little sort of tails fed through the eyelets of the camera. And then you can kind of quickly move it around, which is, it's really slick. So that's kind of the best strap I've seen. Now I have an old film Nikon that I carry around a lot just for fun. And on that one, I have a really kind of basic strap that I got from Topo Designs, which is another brand I know you and I both like, and they make a, a camera strap that's actually kind of out of like static climbing rope. And it's green and yellow, it's colorful, and it just uses the existing eyelets on the camera with no frills. That strap's actually been surprisingly versatile for me, other than the bright colors, but I'm not using it for shooting watches or anything like that. Generally, when I get a camera, the first thing to go is the strap. I almost never even take that out of the package. going with with something else. I mean, I've tried leather straps. I've tried nylon straps. The peak designs are kind of the ones that have stuck.
James Stacy Yeah, I find that, you know, the included strap, at least with Canon, it says the model of camera, which is I find it from for security reasons. Oh, yeah. Problematic. So I like to cover any, any of the branding on the camera with like electrical tape or black tape. Grip tape works really well, especially on like the left side of the camera where you might reach for just a second, like a little bit extra purchase. Yeah. You know, being right handed. And for me, I have I have a few straps. I bought a Tanner Goods leather strap and it's this beautiful strap that kind of reminds me of like the the seat leather of like a Mira. It has this kind of like very vintagey European sort of design and it's very well made and they're quite expensive. And I used it a few times and it puts the weight of the camera just high enough on your neck that your shoulders are completely taken out of the equation and it's very uncomfortable.
Jason Heaton I think I've got the same strap. I think I've got a Tanner Goods leather strap that's now hidden in the basement somewhere.
James Stacy I think with a lighter camera, it would be great. It looks awesome. It's very well made. It's very, you know, kind of sturdy and keeps the camera roughly, you know, in the center of your chest, but just with the weight of a big camera with a big lens and maybe even a flash, it doesn't work at all. So I went with, I think, probably a competitor to your Peak Design Sling with the Black Rapid. So this is the, you know, it's a sling style strap, goes over one shoulder and it has these two clips that control where the camera can go on the webbing. Yeah. So you can clip it down to the bottom. So it mounts into an eyelet in the tripod mount. So unlike the Peak Design one, you can't just remove the strap quickly and put it on a tripod. You actually have to remove this mount. Yes. But it holds the camera upside down and kind of against your hip if you have it sized correctly. And it works really well. I like this strap as much as I like any strap. And I still aggressively avoid using it. I made, for a little while I was making these little loops of high density nylon with like gun, with rifle clips. And I would feed my, so when I was hiking, I would feed my belt through that and it would hold the camera kind of right on the top of my thigh and could be unlatched with one hand. So one holding the camera, one with the clip. And I liked that quite a bit. And I still use that with some frequency, but the one I go back to that I use for all the shows, is like just your standard $20 cotton carrier hand strap. So that mounts into the tripod port as well, and then into the kind of strap mount on the right-hand side of the camera. Oh, yeah. And it just gives you a little bit of support if you're, you know, to hold the camera into the grip of your hand without actually gripping the camera. And I absolutely love that, you know, moving around at watch shows or events, I have a bag, which is where I put the camera, so I don't need a strap. But I do need a way to kind of ensure the camera stays in my hand. You know, you might be holding the camera over a quarter million dollars of watches. And some of these rooms are very hot and you've been drinking a ton of coffee and you might even still be very tired. So I like having the hand strap for kind of the security and comfort. And that's my favorite way to use the cameras with these, you know, kind of basic hand strap. It works pretty well.
Jason Heaton Yeah, I've got one of those hand straps as well. The one I have is, a couple of years ago actually, it might have been last year, Gear Patrol was partnered with Dispatch, DSP, TCH. It's a company I think out of San Francisco that makes, you know, various little accessories, key chains and straps and things like that. And it's kind of this woven, like paracord sort of strap that it has a loop to put your wrist through and then it feeds through the eyelet on the camera. It's really nice. It's well made. It's great for that purpose. Exactly what you're talking about. Um, I've made the mistake of like going on a hike with that alone and you end up sort of hiking, carrying the camera in one hand and it ends up cramping up your forearm and whatever else. Um, the other downfall of that one is that it's, it's like fluorescent bright orange. So again, there's that reflection issue, but, um, it kind of comes down to how you're using the camera. If you're hiking, You know, we've talked on past shows about the bags we use, you know, whether it's a backpack or a shoulder bag or your, your Agua bag that you use for waterproofing. Great bag. But you know, if you're, if you're just kind of casually walking around a city or a car show or something like that, you know, maybe just the sling or, or this black rapid strap is, is adequate where you don't need a bag and you know, you don't want to just use a hand strap. So, you know, you gotta have a few different options.
James Stacy Yeah, for sure. And I think, uh, I think that it just comes down to, yeah, how long, how heavy the camera is, how long you're going to carry it for and how you plan on using it. Like a car show is a great example of where I would probably elect to use the BlackRapid because I might want to have both hands free, or I want the ability to kind of have the camera inconspicuously at my side. Or in some ways you could, you could easily use the strap under your jacket. Right. which is nice when you're touring a city, you can keep the camera out of the rain and kind of keep it very securely just under your arm, basically. I like the Black Rapid, like I said, as much as any strap. I think I'm just not maybe one for camera straps in general. Outside of the gear, Jason, you know, you shoot some watches, you shoot some, obviously a lot of like adventure, you know, you have some great experience, experience I don't have shooting underwater. If someone listening is maybe into kind of advanced photography and would like to get into shooting underwater, can you walk them through a few different options? I mean, obviously you'd start at GoPro, but people are going to quickly outpace what that camera is capable of, especially from a photo standpoint, right?
Jason Heaton Yeah, definitely. I mean, I do have a GoPro and it's great for what it is. You know, it's kind of a great sort of backup. In fact, you can get mounts that you could put a GoPro on top of a big sort of SLR housing if you want to take that underwater and shoot video with one and stills with the other. But the GoPro, you know, like you said, it has limitations. So the first kind of underwater foray into photography that I had was with an old Olympus point and shoot. I can't remember the exact model number. One of the WP models. Yes, exactly. Which on its own is waterproof to, you know, like 30 feet or something like that. So that clearly wasn't great for diving. But it came with a little plastic housing that you could buy, and it even had a tray. The tray goes underneath the housing to mount handles on, and then you can attach a strobe on an arm on that tray. And it was all a very compact system, but we're talking close to 10 years ago, so that camera's kind of outdated now, so sold that one off. When we moved to the Nikon D7000, the SLR, great crop sensor SLR camera, Um, we wanted to take it underwater and, uh, pull the trigger on, um, Eicolite. And there are a lot of different housing companies that make housings for a variety of, of cameras, both SLRs and point and shoots and anything in between. Eicolite by and large is the most affordable of that kind of line of housings that you can get kind of on the higher end. And what they do is they make them out of sort of a clear composite, you know, plastic. um, that is custom made for every kind of camera that you can, you can get. So they basically make one housing that will fit over the camera itself. And then they drill holes and put these levers and switches that will activate the buttons on the camera accordingly. Right. Okay. So that was kind of, you know, the housing that we used, it was a big clunky heavy operation to haul around the world at different dive sites. That kind of led us to the next step was to go to the, something really small, kind of at the opposite end of the spectrum, which was that Sony RX100, which when it came out, you know, was touted as one of the better underwater cameras. And James, I know you've used it, yours underwater as well. Yeah, certainly. It's a great camera. We had that with a housing from Nauticam, which is, I would say, a step up from Icolyte. They use a sort of an anodized machined aluminum housing that has some added features to it. It has a water sensor. It has the ability to plug in strobe cables. They're much more customized for very specific cameras, but they also come with a steeper price tag. The RX100, the downfall that we found with that for shooting underwater was the shutter response is relatively slow with that camera. So you don't get that crisp, quick response, quick autofocus or quick shutter response that you get with an SLR camera, as well as the the low light inability that it has that you mentioned earlier. And so that kind of led, it kind of, we kind of reached the limitation of that camera for use underwater. And now what we're using is this A7, which we also have in a, in a Nauticam housing. And it's, it's pretty darn good. I mean, it's, it's, I would say, you know, to, to go beyond the capabilities of the A7 would be to go to like get a housing for the D4S or something like that, which we're talking a big giant heavy, Heavy system. Yeah, for sure. But I can't recommend Nauticam enough. Ikelite's also a great option for a housing. But with that housing, then you get this tray, you get two sturdy arms. And then I can't recommend enough getting a set of strobes to use underwater because what happens is if you see any photos taken underwater without strobes, you just lose light so quickly as you descend past, you know, 20, 30, 40 feet until all the colors that you see underwater turn to kind of a gray, dull gray color. And what adding strobes does is you bring back that color, whether it's coral or a watch or a wetsuit or a pair of fins, it just kind of pops that color back into a photo. That said, there's a certain skill you have to have to using strobes underwater because what happens, especially in kind of the murky water that we saw when we went diving in Vancouver or any of the lakes around here, is you get what's called backscatter, which is where the particulate that's floating around in the water reflects back the light from the strobes that you're firing as you're taking the photos. And so you get like this snow effect in the foreground of your photo. And so you end up moving the arms of the strobes around to kind of eliminate that and angling them. And there's just there's just a whole art and sort of trial and error aspect to using strobes.
James Stacy Yeah, I use a I picked up what's called the Mekon housing. It's kind of the entry level Chinese made housing for the RX100. Oh, sure. If you want to use the RX100 similar to the way you would use a GoPro, I think this housing is fine. I think it's nicely made. It's easy to put the camera in and all of those sorts of issues. It doesn't allow full manual control of the camera. It's missing the ability to spin the rear dial, if I remember correctly. It's a lot easier when you have it in your hand. There's YouTube videos explaining what you can and can't do with the Mekon housing. I think I paid like 120 bucks for it, which is fantastic. That's really good. Yeah. And it's good to 40 or 50 meters, which is plenty. I've used it a few times and you end up having to run the RX100 in program mode. Yeah. Which is fine. It's not great, but it's fine. And then you of course have the RX100 has a dedicated video button. So at any point you can just tap the video button and it starts taking video and the video is really good.
[no speaker identified] Yeah.
James Stacy from the RX100, certainly on par with what you would get from a GoPro, maybe a little bit more fiddly as far as the settings to get it there. GoPros really point, like literally point and shoot by design. But I would say that if you just want to break into the underwater photography and you don't want to spend the same amount on a case or more that you did on the camera, the Mekon might be a good proof of concept for you, where you're really only spending a small amount of money to see if you even really enjoy underwater photography. It's really a task when you're diving to take photos. I can see why the GoPro really brought about more use of underwater photography because it is just a little bit more user-friendly. Even the Mekon, and I had an underwater case for that G7 way back, despite living in Ontario and having seen the ocean twice. You really have to kind of sit there with your gloves on, on the couch and just fiddle with all the buttons until you start to get some response that you can predict. Because obviously that's, that's how you get, that's how a camera works well for you is when you know what it's going to do when you hit a button. Like I can operate my 5D in the dark. I don't have to take my eye away from the diopter. I don't have to, you know, it tells me what I need to know in the little, you know, lower thirds indication, but if I need to change a focus point, I don't have to look at the screen. I have all that disabled. And as soon as you take that away and add in all of the general stress of diving, it really is something that I would say kind of move your progression through. And actually my general recommendation would be let go, go wherever it is that you got certified, go to your dive shop and see if they offer a photography course where they supply the camera. because that'll cost you, you'll get the course and it's a level of certification within PADI as part of your specialization courses. If you want to move to, is it Master Scuba Diver? I believe you need five of those and it counts as one of the five. And if they supply the cameras, that's a pretty good shakedown for not only will you get proper instruction on how to use it, presumably the person teaching the course is kind of an avid underwater photographer, but you'll get to use gear that's that's proven itself to be worth investing at a shop level. And I think that's probably the most user friendly way to step into underwater photography. And then of course, I think if you enjoy it, you're going to end up like, like Jason and just move from one setup to another as you up the bar and kind of find the limitations of those more entry level options.
Jason Heaton Yeah, and I'm, I'm, you know, despite the fact that I have sort of a love hate relationship with a GoPro, because I've For many years, several years I should say, I've kind of hated the user interface of the GoPro. They continue to get better as the generations go past, but what it's really good at is stuff like underwater, or mountain biking, or skiing, or something where all you want to do is press one button and just have it record. And I have the Hero 4, and it is a very basic camera, but I bought what's called the 3-way, which is kind of a fold-out, for lack of a better term, selfie stick. that you mount the GoPro on the end of it. And you can turn it backwards, forwards, facing you, facing away. And it folds down very quickly. You can tuck it into the pocket of your BC or just clip it on. And it's right there. And I used it recently in Mauritius. I've used it in Lake Superior. And, you know, the GoPro, for better or for worse, it takes great, really great wide-angle video. It's almost perfect for diving in good light. And you can actually get pretty decent sort of screen grabs off of it for Instagram photos you know, sharing on Facebook or whatever you want to do. So don't, I'm not too quick to discount the GoPro, uh, certainly for anything that, uh, that we're doing for, you know, magazines or for, uh, you know, web reviews of watches and things like that. It's, it's going to be inadequate, but for what it is for sharing and for just, you know, great sort of vacation, cool snaps and videos, it's, it really can't be beat.
James Stacy If you're looking for kind of a, uh, to do video, I think GoPro is the natural choice because the, the, the bar is very high. And a small consumer tip, if you weren't paying attention, GoPro announced the Hero5 this week, meaning this Christmas the Hero4 will be discounted. I think something like a Hero4 or the new Hero5 is going to be probably what most people are going to want and need, and is probably a nice entry point into the overall format.
Jason Heaton Yeah, I agree. And GoPro's tools, the applications that you can put on your desktop or even on your phone are really user friendly for editing video or for doing screen captures or sharing. So it really makes for a nice package. So it can't be too snobby about GoPro.
James Stacy Yeah, for sure. So I think to kind of put a bow on this, I think we should just end with some tips of things that maybe we learned that we could help people skip a few steps. Yeah. Wasted money or things like that with the types of photography that that you do Jason What are some things that you figure you could probably like short road?
Jason Heaton Well, I would say, you know First of all identify the types of photography that you're gonna do don't get the for instance Don't get the d800 if you plan on doing all sort of rugged outdoor low-light mixed light situations get get the camera that is best suited for for your venue. Not everybody's out there doing macro watch photography where they control the light. Not everybody's doing underwater photography. Not everybody's doing, you know, everybody's not a war correspondent. So oftentimes the camera you think you should buy is more than what you need. It's more expensive than what you need. Also that same thing applies to lenses. I would say, I believe they say sort of the human eye sort of sees it sort of somewhere between a 35 and a 50 millimeter sort of focal range and and i find that sometimes just packing one or two lenses along on a trip if you're say going hiking in the mountains or traveling to a different city or a different country a good sort of mid-range you know 35 i use a 35 millimeter lens a lot or or something like a 24 to 70 is a very versatile lens yeah that's where i like my 17 to 40 yeah rather than packing you know a whole quiver whole bag full of lenses which gets heavy expensive you know potentially uh uh, you know, targets for theft, whatever, um, you know, just identify kind of just the right lens. You know, some, a lot of camera shops will rent lenses and it's a good way to kind of try some out. Also buying used. Another thing that I like to do is there's a camera shop here in town that has an annual tent sale. And at least with Nikon, you know, the, the, the new cameras, the new DSLRs will still accept lenses, you know, going back to the 1950s that Nikon produced. And you can get some really great deals on some really great prime lenses. You know, um, granted they aren't autofocus lenses, but great lenses for, you know, a hundred bucks, 200 bucks, um, for, for lenses that have good metal bodies, good glass. Um, and we'll work with the camera. So keep an eye out on, you know, Craigslist or, or camera shops for, for the used stuff. I think it's a great way to,
James Stacy I find that there's a bit of trepidation among users about lenses that don't support the current autofocus standards, which means the manual focusing lenses are usually really cheap. So if you're planning on shooting macro, like say for watches or bugs or whatever you're going to shoot in macro or landscapes. Neither of those require autofocus, really. Yeah, right. You can with a modern camera like, you know, a lot of modern SLRs, you can actually plug the camera into your computer and verify on a great big screen that you've got it as tack sharp as you want it to be. But I mean, you're just instead of allowing the camera to choose the focus point, which you wouldn't do that commonly in macro anyways, you're going to select that yourself. You're just rotating a little wheel. It's going to be on a tripod. All of the other reasons you would want to have autofocus won't be present in a studio scenario when you're shooting a watch, for example. Which means a manual focus macro lens will be very cheap and capable likely of taking very great photos. And all you'll have to do is learn one little trick, which is to focus manually and then maybe confirm the focus by shooting tethered. or using the zoom feature on the LCD on the back of your DSLR. I think that's probably the best advice I could give you is try and find a few loopholes because cameras and camera gear is quite expensive. What about you? What are your tips? Use all of the resources available to you to learn how to use the gear you have. If you end up in a position where you do want to buy more gear, you want to invest in more gear, again, research. Research, research, research, because the internet and there's so many great resources, whether it's user reviews on popular websites like B&H photo, or I mean, anybody who's Googled camera gear will know Ken Rockwell. I love his reviews. And yeah, know your subject, know what you plan to shoot. I would say from the Canon standpoint, don't let people tell you that you can't make amazing photos with the kit lens. I haven't shot the Nikon, but I'm like really sure it's the same, but the Canon 18 to 55 for anybody who's been following my work with a blog to watch, you know, for the last nearly five years that have been with them, every Baselworld and, and show and event that I've been to up until, uh, let's see this year I shot with And 18 to 55. So all the wrist shots, you can crank that, zoom it into 55. It focuses, I think within nine centimeters of the front of the lens. So that's plenty for macro. It works really well with a crop sensor and that lens is a hundred dollars. So I broke one once in Texas and I bought another one at the airport. It was the only lens I had with me and it was a hundred bucks. Really reliable, really simple, fast focusing. Are they fancy? No. Do they have a red line around them to let everybody around you know that you're serious? I'm sorry, they don't. But you'll be able to take fantastic photos. And if your goal is to shoot watches, I actually think it's a great lens and just use that until you find that you really need the macro and then buy the hundred millimeter. I think that's the safe way to go. Again, I do want to stress that the camera is way less important than practice. Even if all you have at your disposal right now is your phone, if you're listening on SoundCloud or iTunes or whatever on your phone, that device can take a great photo of a watch or your family or of a sunset or whatever. Just practice. Take more photos with that camera and you'll learn how to get the most out of it. Learn to use the software of the trade. If you're serious about this, get a Creative Live subscription for Lightroom and Photoshop. There's nothing really all that intimidating about either piece of software because YouTube will explain anything. So you can go into Photoshop and have no idea what any of the tools do, and you hover your mouse over the tool and it tells you what it's called, and then you just Google that, select videos, and then just watch a three-minute video explaining how to use the tool. And in no time, you'll find that the learning curve on Photoshop is actually quite fast. You'll learn the tools, you'll learn how to find the menu that you can't find. That's where I always got lost. I couldn't find a menu and I would just give up like I couldn't find out why I couldn't select the color for what I wanted. Once you get past those hurdles, you'll find that Photoshop and especially Lightroom, I mean, my entire photographic existence is within Lightroom. And if you just watch a brief tutorial on how to bring bring photos into your computers for organization standpoint, and then how to take a good photo and get it ready for Instagram or Flickr or whatever you choose. I think that's, that's part of the whole thing. And if you're only working on shooting the camera and you're not learning how to treat the photo on its way to where it will be printed or displayed, I think you're only learning kind of part of the overall structure. Learn to use your camera in manual mode. I mean, if you're using auto currently switch to program, which is auto without the flash. If I see another person taking a photograph in broad daylight of a landscape with a flash, I mean, you just want to walk over and rotate that little dial to program and be like, there you go, buddy, keep at it. But learn how to, how to know when you should be using aperture priority or shutter priority or pro or manual. I mean, my preference is to just always use manual. learn your specific camera's ISO tolerances. So what's too high for your camera? You know, Jason, like your D4 can go way higher in ISO before it starts to degrade the image than my 5D can. Sure. So just learning the difference will let you know where the thresholds are for that camera. And finally, if you're, because this is the email and the questions I get on Instagram and such, if you're really asking me what camera you should buy, and you want to shoot photos, no video. If you put a gun to my head, I'm going to tell you to buy a used 5D Mark II. So this is the now two generations back of Canon's kind of most popular prosumer line camera. It's 21 megapixels. It's full frame. Any EF lens will work with it. And this is a vastly better camera than most people will ever be photographers. This is a better camera than I am a photographer. And that means the sky's the limit as to what you could really use it for. I mean, the 5D Mark II is a camera that produced numerous covers of magazines probably for years. And you're looking at a use price of, say, maybe around $1,000 US, whereas an entry-level Canon full-frame, the 6D, is $1,700 US. So it's a huge savings. That's money for lenses or, you know, second batteries. Yeah. I would also say that make sure you even need that because for half that price, you can get into a Rebel or what I think is a 5000 series for Nikon, or maybe it's now a 3200, their entry level. Yeah. Amazing cameras. You're into a crop sensor. So just just know what that means. It's not necessarily good or bad. It's just different. So know what that means. But again, know that your camera is probably better than you at taking photos and you're the limitation and just learn from there. I think that's a great place to be because it doesn't necessarily require any money from you, just some time and effort, and you're buying a camera to take pictures anyway, so just take more pictures. And I think you'll quickly learn not only what you like to photograph, which will lead to better purchasing decisions in the future, but also you'll learn all sorts of limitations of the gear and kind of better inform your craft as far as whether it's just taking pictures of your kids at the park or cars at a car show or watches or landscapes or whatever. But hey, if you have any specific questions, certainly about photography, underwater watches, something else, please, please feel free to email us. We'll answer, you know, further questions in an upcoming Q&A episode, but it's thegrenadoatgmail.com and send us an email. We'd love to hear what you think, love to hear if you've got a favorite camera or something you think is a better idea than a, you know, a big Nikon or a big Canon or an RX100 or whatever. Jason, what do you think? You want to move on to the next part of the show?
Jason Heaton Yeah, and I think we should just close with that quote that you mentioned earlier that the best camera is the one you have with you.
James Stacy Alright, well let's dig into some new business. Jason, you're back from a trip. Let's hear about it. How'd it go?
Jason Heaton Yeah, so it's kind of a good segue from our discussion of photography because I went on a really great photographer's trip. I was out in Montana driving through Glacier National Park It was a trip that that my wife and I and a friend had planned since back in April. I think it was Good time to go, you know, it's the hundredth anniversary of the US National Parks But also, you know, we went in kind of mid-september. So it was post Post summer holidays. Most kids are back in school. The park was I wouldn't say empty but it was a It was a really good time to go. The fall colors were starting. We even had a bit of snow kind of up in the high country, which lent some good contrast to the mountains. Uh, this was actually my second trip to Glacier and you know, for anyone that hasn't been there, uh, I've, I've been to, you know, probably a dozen national parks and it's probably up in the top two or three in my mind. It's really a wonderful, it's, it's, it's a really kind of a drivers or photographers national park. The, The hiking certainly is wonderful and we did a couple of kind of short day hikes while we were there. You know, there's just some great sort of remote roads that you can drive and, and picturesque lakes and, and high peaks. And, uh, we were there for probably, I think it was four or five days and we pretty well saw every corner of the park that you can drive to there. There's, you know, I don't know, half a million acres or something in the, in the park. So there's a lot more ground to cover, but, uh, You know, we flew into Great Falls, rented a car, and then spent the first couple of nights at Glacier Park Lodge, which is one of the old historic lodges that were built by the railroad on the east side of the park. And did some driving into the east side of the park, stopped and did some photography, did a couple of day hikes. And then on the third day that we were there, we drove up to Alberta across the Canadian border. to Waterton Lakes, which is a provincial park that's kind of the sister park to Glacier National Park. And so you do the border crossing and then it's about another 30 minutes into, into Canada. And right on Waterton Lakes, there's a historic hotel there called the Prince of Wales Hotel. And they do this daily high tea that you sort of sit in this dining room and they come out and serve it with, you know, great ceremony. And you're looking out these big, beautiful glass windows over this lake and surrounded by peaks. Just a really stunning, stunning venue. Sounds amazing. It was amazing. Yeah, it was, it was great. And like I said, you know, we got some snow, we got a little bit of rain for a couple of days, but it didn't really detract from the trip. It kind of lent a contrast to the, to the photos. I actually haven't seen the photos because I took, I took an old film camera with me and three rolls of film, black and white film that I have, I haven't gotten developed yet, but it just seemed like one of those trips. I do so many trips for work that require that I take, you know, a digital camera. for, um, you know, for publication. And so whenever I take trips like this, just for, just for pleasure, I like to take, uh, my old Nikon F3 and a few rolls of film and, uh, really cool, you know, kind of channel my inner Ansel Adams. So we'll see how this turned out. My iPhone photos turned out great. So you can check out my, my Instagram feed from a couple of weeks ago and see the photos that I took there. But, uh, yeah, great trip. Highly recommend it. Glacier national park. Um, go see it before the snow flies. Cause they don't plow the roads there. You know, in other news, my, you know, we talked about in our last episode, we talked about the, the 50th anniversary sub 300 from Doxa that, that I had, um, still have it actually my writeup. It was a fairly extensive sort of trip report slash watch review, uh, was published on, uh, revolution magazines website a couple of weeks ago. So you can check that out. We'll put a link in the show notes, you know, kind of good, nice to sort of put that one to bed. It was a watch that I've had for. Coming up on a month and a half and can't say enough good things about it. It was just a really fun watch to have. James, I hope you get a chance to check out the 50th anniversary piece. Yeah, me too. Because it's one of my favorite watches released in 2016. Speaking of new watches, I know you just got something very recently that looks super cool. Tell us about that.
James Stacy Yeah, I didn't think it was going to be here, but it ended up showing up just an hour or two before we started recording. Thanks to some help from some friends, I was able to source essentially a like new old stock Seiko World Time, the 6117-6400, which I mentioned in a previous episode. And then I looked for quite a long time and didn't really source one that I was happy with. There's some kind of sketchy looking ones on eBay. and the pricing's still fairly high for the sketchy ones. But thankfully, a great guy from my local Red Bar group, Secret Sauce 604 Watches, his name's Tavis, he had a connection with a kind of legendary Instagram Seiko collector, BertNet69, and happened to notice that Bertrand had a 6117 in a video, and reached out to him, and turns out he was interested in selling, From there, it kind of worked out fairly simply and the watch arrived today and it literally looks like it came out of a time machine. Wow. I mean, by the time this episode goes up, there's going to be way too many photos of the watch on my Instagram because it's all I'm going to wear for a while. It looks absolutely brand new. I love the functionality. I'm absolutely thrilled. It was a great price. The watch only, no boxes, no papers, no bracelet, but that's fine by me. I plan to wear it and really enjoy it. It's great. I'm absolutely thrilled. But other than that, I don't really have I don't really have a ton of kind of new business, just kind of, you know, the fall is here and getting ready for some cooler weather and some more hikes and stuff. But the Seiko is kind of all I could think about at the moment, having it, you know, just arrived a little while ago.
Jason Heaton Yeah, you sent me a photo. That is, you got me jealous. I love that watch. It has this sort of, is it sort of a silver white dial? Yeah, it's a silvery dial. That bright red 24 hour hand. I mean, it's, It's stunning. What's the size on that watch? I'm looking at it on your wrist and it looks to be, what, 42 or so?
James Stacy Yeah, it's about 41 millimeters. It wears smaller than that because of the case shape. Yeah, the dial's immaculate. The case looks essentially untouched. You know, it arrived on a gray NATO by chance.
Jason Heaton I love that it says world time under Seiko. That's just so, that's so cool. Usually it's like Seiko automatic on these vintage Seikos, but I love that little tidbit there.
James Stacy Yeah. And it's the crown, Function feels like it was made yesterday and the date advance is perfect and everything you could hope for. Crystal's flawless. Like I said, I'm thrilled. Sorry to everybody who follows me on Instagram if you don't like the way this watch looks because you're going to be seeing it a lot. But what do you think? You want to hit up some final notes, get this done? Yeah, let's do that. My first one this week is about the Transglobe Expedition and its connection with kind of a strange Rolex. One of our listeners, Matt, wrote us an email pointing us to a link from a 2012 post from Shane Griffin at Welln for Life. Jason and I know Shane, great guy, great site. Yeah. It's called Lessons in Wristery, the Transglobe Expedition Rolex. So, you know, I know a little bit about the Transglobe Expedition because I read Randolph Fine's autobiography, Mad, Bad and Dangerous to Know, which is a fantastic book. The expedition was the first successful circumnavigation of the Earth at its poles. and Randolph Fiennes was part of a very large team of people who made this kind of trek possible. And as it turns out, it involved a one-off Rolex, which is a fairly exciting thing for a watch nerd, especially watch nerds that are fascinated by kind of adventure watches. Transglobe Expedition team member Oliver Shepard was given a 1655 Explorer II, which is a very cool watch. He requested that they swap the dials and hands from a GMT-Master II for better legibility. So basically what you have is a precursor to the 16550 or the 16570 Explorer IIs, which were ostensibly original style Explorer II cases, but with a more GMT-2-esque hand and dial set. Yeah, I thought it was pretty cool that the watch even existed, but certainly that the post is up on Wound for Life and I just miss it. So Shane, thanks so much for writing it.
Jason Heaton Yeah, that's a really cool story and it's such a great one for us at the Greynado because it's got so many elements that we like. I mean, I think we're both sort of Randall Fiennes fans anyway. And then here we've got, you know, two of our favorite Rolexes kind of smashed into one. So really, really cool story. I'm kind of sticking with the photography theme here and it's actually a book that you recommended and then I went and downloaded. It's an e-book. It's a PDF file actually. Anyone who, you know, might casually look at great nature photography on Instagram might know of a guy named Paul Nicklin, L-I-C-K-L-E-N. Paul does a lot of shooting for National Geographic. He's got a background as a biologist. I think he's Canadian, if I'm not mistaken.
James Stacy We talked about him in the past with a TED talk he did about... Oh, the leopard seals.
Jason Heaton Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting guy. Great Instagram feed. If you don't know him, go and check out Paul Nicklin. He just recently published an e-book, which is surprisingly affordable. We'll put a link in the show notes, but you can download it. It's called Photographing Wild, and it's Paul's sort of techniques and kind of advice about how to take just really great photos, especially of nature or of people doing extraordinary things, adventure photography. basically the kind of stuff we like to do. What's neat about it is, you know, first of all, it has a lot of his great photos in the book and he kind of explains how he took the photo and even the gear that he took, uh, or that he shot it with the lenses, the aperture, the camera that he used, some of it going back to the film days, but he also inserts kind of some sort of sections or chapters on other photographers that he admires. So he talks a little bit about, um, sort of does interviews with people like Jimmy Chin, who, you know, James and I are both big fans of. David Dubillet, who's a great, you know, legendary underwater photographer and a few others. And then he, you know, he doesn't overly geek out about gear. He does go into the gear that he uses, and that's an interesting chapter in its own right. But he talks really about things like, you know, getting into the mindset for photography, achieving the right composition. He talks about something that James mentioned earlier in today's show about you know, really getting to know your camera, kind of sitting down with it so that you can just pick it up and go when you need to, keeping it at sort of a home setting so that when you're, when you pick up your camera, let's say that the polar bear suddenly appears and you want to take your photo, you know that it's, you know, you're at a F 3.5 and, uh, you know, one 500th shutter speed ISO 400 or something like that. You know, right where the camera's at when you, when you pick it up. So, It's tips like that that are coming from a guy that I happen to really respect. And I think that the e-book was, you know, eight or 10 bucks and it's just a download of a PDF file. So highly recommended. We'll throw in the, um, the link in the show notes.
James Stacy Yeah, most certainly. I plan to pick that up and, uh, and take a look at, uh, you know, I threw it in, in my pocket account when I saw it and I sent you the link. Uh, I think it's really cool that they're even making something like this from a photographer of that caliber. And it looks, you know, I saw some samples, it looks very nicely produced. I'm excited to kind of dig into that maybe on a future break or a flight or something like that.
Jason Heaton Yeah, definitely worth it. And then just quickly, I want to close with a quick shout out to, I believe he's one of our listeners, a guy named Aaron Cross over in the UK. Aaron has a really cool blog that I really enjoy and I read regularly. It's called the All Night Listening Post, which is, it's got a great title anyway, which I really like. Aaron's kind of into things like, Uh, some adventure, a little bit of history, uh, men's fashion and style, a little bit of watches, um, cool boots. He publishes, you know, pretty regularly, I'd say once a week or once every couple of weeks, he's got a pretty cool Instagram feed. Anyway, check out the All Night Listening post and, uh, Aaron, keep up the good work. So.
James Stacy Well, as always, thanks so much for listening. You can hit the show notes for more details, all the links about the dizzying amount of things we spoke about in this episode. You can follow us on Instagram. And until next time we leave you with this quote from St. Augustine who said, the world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page.