The Grey NATO - 155 - MKII, Tornek-Rayville, And Early Microbrands With Bill Yao
Published on Thu, 05 Aug 2021 06:00:24 -0400
Synopsis
The podcast episode features a discussion with Bill Yao, founder of the watch brands Mark II and Tornek Rayville. Bill shares the history of how he started modifying Seiko watches and eventually creating his own watch designs inspired by vintage military watches. They discuss Bill's design philosophy, his attention to detail and quality control standards, and the recent launch of the Tornek Rayville TR-900 dive watch. Bill also talks about his new magazine project called "The Guinea Pig Zine" which celebrates creativity and interesting pursuits.
Links
Transcript
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| James | Hello and welcome to another episode of The Great NATO, a loose discussion of travel, diving, driving, gear, and most certainly watches. We're up to episode 155, and we thank you for listening. |
| Jason Heaton | Hey James, how's it going? Yeah, pretty good, man. It's an episode I'm pretty pumped about. It's the start of a good week in my side of the world, or my part of our side of the world, I suppose. |
| James | Yeah, how are you? Yeah, doing pretty well. Your Canadian forest fires are blowing a lot of smoke around here. |
| Jason Heaton | Oh, I'm sure. |
| James | So it's kind of hazy days, but other than that, it's, yeah, it's going well. |
| Jason Heaton | We've mostly avoided August. We haven't had the, yeah, isn't it crazy how quickly the summer's going by? Yeah. But yeah, we mostly haven't had any of the smoke out this way just yet. So it seems to be trending more Southern and still somewhat to the West. But, you know, I've got family out on the West Coast and it's an issue for sure. Uh, so anyone listening who's dealing with that, um, either, you know, kind of directly like in, in your backyard or just from a smoke standpoint, uh, we, you know, we're thinking of you and, uh, we hope that it, uh, literally blows over as soon as possible. You know, I remember the first time I woke up, I guess it would have been the fires of 2016 just North of Vancouver or kind of all around Vancouver. But I remember I woke up and I thought, I thought I actually thought something was wrong with my vision because it was so orange. all the light in my room, my bedroom was so orange. And I thought, no, I'm having a stroke or something's not right. And I ended up going outside to try and figure out what it was, taking the dog for a walk, had a dog at the time, and then realizing like, oh, this is smoke. I shouldn't have the dog outside. So we went back inside and then started to Google, can my kids go outside in this? What's going on? And It was, it was gnarly. Um, and that was at a pretty, it was at a good distance. I can't imagine what it's like to have it, have it right in your backyard. Really scary stuff. Yeah. And it's been in a disturbing trend this summer. |
| James | Yeah. And it's been, it's been kind of that sort of summer too. We've had really hot weather here and then like almost no rain. And then with the smoke, it has this almost apocalyptic feel, you know, the sort of orange sunsets and the smoky smell and, and uh, no rain. It's, it's a, it's a little disconcerting. I mean, we usually, there's a pretty good Creek that flows through the twin cities here that you can paddle down. Uh, and we usually do that a couple of times this summer, but the water's so low, I think it could just, some of the sections of the Creek are just completely dried up. And, and so it hasn't been a good summer for that. And then, you know, I really kind of gotten into, to, uh, biking a lot more this summer again. And it's just tough these past couple of weeks with the air quality alerts. I mean, you're almost doing more, more harm than good to go out and exert when it's, uh, when it's that crazy. So I've been, I went to the indoor pool and did some laps on Saturday using the rowing machine in the basement, which I hate. I hate doing indoor exercise when it's summer, but, uh, you know, these days it's probably safer to do that. |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah, I've gotten out on the bike a bunch in the last couple of weeks, uh, which has been really nice. Uh, you know, I, I, I broke one of my kids broke my exercise bike and, uh, I was, I was going through, uh, a subsequent series of JB weld applications to repair it. Um, and I think, I think it's working now maybe even better than when I was given it, but I, yeah, I had this, the, my road bike out, um, a couple of times or a few times a week. And it was, uh, it was getting, I was starting to feel a little bit stronger and then We went up to the cottage this weekend to do yet another floor. Uh, this would be the final layer of flooring for the bathroom. And, uh, and it was like cold and rainy. Oh, wow. Like you would have sworn it was a October, like a Canadian October. |
| James | I'd kind of welcome that actually, but I shouldn't, I shouldn't press things. I should enjoy summer while it's here. |
| Jason Heaton | I didn't, I w it wasn't about to complain. And then even just, just, we stayed over to today. We're recording this on a Tuesday. We stayed over till Monday and Monday was more like, you know, warm, summery, sunny, all of it. So the swing is really impressive these days. It's really an unstable sort of climate that we're existing in. And we get these weird extremes. To see 40, again, I apologize, I'm talking in Celsius, but to see 40 plus on the West coast is just absurd. You know, that's 25% hotter than what I would have considered a very hot day when I was in Vancouver. |
| James | Yeah. Yeah. Not much air conditioning out there. I know at least in Seattle, it's very uncommon. It's a city that doesn't have a lot of AC. Yeah. But, uh, well not to, not to go on too much about the weather, but you know, we've on the gardening front, it's been, it's actually been a pretty good summer for, for our produce that we started growing this year. And, uh, we've our tomato plants are just laden with, with tomatoes that are ripening up. And, and just a couple of days ago I was able to harvest some kale and tomatoes and onions and, uh, and lots of herbs and, and finally able to put together like a full meal from almost exclusively from the garden. So that's, that's been, that's been fun. You know, when we kind of got into gardening last summer during the, the big pandemic year, you know, it's mostly kind of flowers and just sort of getting the place in shape. And this year we thought, Oh, let's go all in on, I'm growing some vegetables and it's been, it's been super satisfying. I mean, it's, it's really fun to go out and just, you know, pick stuff that you planted from seed or from a little, little shoot or something back in April or May. So that's been, that's been a lot of fun. |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah. We've been, we've been doing some similar here. You know, we, I think we have less space than you've got in your backyard. Yeah. We're on a patio, a patio essentially. So it's all kind of planters and such, but yeah, tomatoes and cucumbers are in. peppers are well on their way. I'm really excited to do maybe some hot salsa or that sort of thing. So yeah, this has been some habaneros and serranos and that kind of stuff. Some of my faves. Nice. You know, it is like we've said in the past, you know, don't get up to from one episode to another one. You know, there's no travel, there's none of this kind of stuff. But yeah, I got up to the cottage and did some renos. I bought a As I want to do, I bought a DeWalt cordless jigsaw. Oh, nice. And I'd been on the fence for it for a while, but I had to do some, you know, we were doing cutouts for this vinyl flooring. Yeah. So really, really precise cuts. Yeah. And I honestly don't know how I lived without this thing. I used it all weekend. It was really useful. I had a good time putting the floor in despite the fact that the level of complexity was higher than some of the other floors I've done. Yeah. It was a nice weekend and it's nice to come back to Uh, this episode, they get in chat with you and then there are, we've got a guest that we've talked about for a long time, you know, Bill's on the show, uh, in just a few minutes. And, uh, I think the, the chat, which we recorded just before this went really, really well. Uh, and I'm excited to hear what people think of it. So I'm, uh, I'm pumped for this one. Yeah, me too. |
| James | More than normal. Me too. I think, you know, we had done, we've brought up Bill several times on the show. And I think even in the context of our, our episode on homage watches back, I think it was episode 84, you know, his name came up again and we've, Ever since then, I think we've been saying, Oh, we need to have Bill on the show. And, and Bill's a friend, you know, I mean, you've, you've met him a few times. I used to meet him. It was always the first day of Basel world for two or three years in a row. He would reach out to me and he'd say, Hey, do you want to meet for coffee? There was this one bakery, right? Just a few blocks from the main hall there. And he and I would meet for coffee. And it was like the one time a year I would meet him and it was always pleasant and very generous. And, He's just a lot of fun and he's got a lot of cool stuff to say. So I'll, I'll, I'll be curious to hear how our listeners react to, to the show. He's got some interesting stuff going on these days too. So. |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah. Neil questions, comments, all that for what's coming up. This is our, our once an episode may well, let's call it twice an episode pitch for the sub stack, which is pumping. I literally took the weekend off of email and I came back and like three comments had become 30 or 40 on the last episode. I'm just thrilled to see people in there. If you're listening, I don't respond to every comment, but I read every single one. I get an email for everyone. And then late at night, last night, I got back home and back to Wi-Fi and the rest of it. And I read through them. So please check out notes.thegraynado.com. Sign up, leave some comments. Let us know what you think. Let us know what you'd like for future episodes. We got to keep up this weekly pace. And at a certain point, we need some help. So if you've got a great topic or a fun question or someone you think that would be a great person to have on, let us know and we'll do what we can. Jason, how about, uh, how about a little bit of wrist check? |
| James | Yeah, sure. Um, I've got the, the Aqua star deep star on, um, you know, I wear it a lot. It's a no big surprise. Um, I've, I've recently picked up a couple of, you know, I'm a big fan of the, the Matt supreme, uh, straps from crown and buckle. And I picked up a couple of straps from them recently, including one that Thomas from crown and buckle. He, he actually direct messaged me on Instagram, I don't know, a month or so ago. And he said, I don't know, he's some clever, uh, clever gorilla advertising or something. He said, Oh, you know, we've got this new color. And I think you'd probably like, it's called grayish, which is like a crossover between gray and beige. And, um, so I bought one, barely a color. I love it. I bought one and it's like, you know, beige isn't exactly an inspiring name for a color. I mean, I think, you know, I wouldn't normally pick that, but this color is just, it's fantastic. And it's, uh, in this texture, I think it looks particularly nice on the, on the gray dial Aqua star. |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah. Yeah. All right. We'll put that in the show notes. I think that, that is neat. That is, it is a, it's almost like a, yeah, like a darker tan, but it has this, um, like lack of saturation. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, cool. Yeah. Really neat. All right. Nice work. They, they make, they make one of the best NATO's out there for sure. Yeah. And how about you? It's a goodie. What are you wearing? Yeah, I've got, uh, I've got the Explorer 2 on. I wanted a little change of pace. I've basically been living with the SPB 143. I can't like it. There's no reason to not wear that watch except for the fact that I own other watches. Yeah. It's just a perfect daily. I've been wearing it on a purlon for a while, but I got back after having that on for the weekend and I wanted to wear something a little bit special. And so, yeah, I pulled the Explorer 2 out of the box and it's on that silly $50 Holblins, or I bought it from Holblins, but Hadley Roma Jubilee. Oh, yeah. It's like a Seiko rickety, shaky, perfect kind of floppy jubilee. So that's why I've got it on. I know that's sacrilege to some people, which I'm more than okay with. And the older I get, the less of a purist I am about most things. And yeah, I just absolutely love this. I wear it a little bit loose. It's super comfortable this time of year. And yeah, it's just a watch that has a lot of sentimental value to me. So I enjoy throwing it on, it seems to get much more wear back when I was traveling or in the winter. Oh, sure. Summer, summer for me is absolutely about dive watches. You know, I was on the, on and off the dock all weekend and it's just nice even with the, even with the Perlon, which might not traditionally be a water strap. Yeah. It does a fine job. Yeah. Yeah. So Explore 2 today, but a lot of SPB 143 the last little while. |
| James | Yeah. You've kind of put me in the mood for, for putting a Rolex on. I haven't worn my sub in many, many months and I, I, I kind of feel the urge. I mean that, that, the steel bracelet worn kind of loose in the summer is just such a good, such a good feel. It looks good on tan skin. It's a, you know, it doesn't soak up sweat. You can get it wet. It's a, it's great. But you know, one thing I was going to say is I, all this activity, all the biking and swimming and everything else that I've been doing has really got me wearing my Phoenix six a lot in my Garmin. And, you know, people probably think that, you know, we're, we're like Garmin's unofficial podcast. Cause we've talked about Garmin so much, but you know, I never quite, uh, understood the appeal of wearing a connected watch as a regular watch, like a lot. But now that I'm just doing stuff every single day, it's almost like I'm wearing that more and then swapping to like a more conventional watch in between to the point where, you know, I was going a few days in a row where I'd be like, well, I, you know, I was on the rowing machine this afternoon and tomorrow morning, I'm going to go for a bike ride. I'm just going to leave the garment on. And then you see how it tracks your, your sleep and your pulse ox and all of that. And it's like, I kind of get this. I still can't cross that. gap of the charm of looking at a proper set of hands and a nice sweep seconds hand. But I get it. I get the appeal. And it's been fun to kind of just track activities with it. |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah, I think that they are literally a modern tool watch. And for the people who wear them every day, I get that too. For me, it's very use case, like you've said in the past. The other thing that I find is distracted driving is a real problem. Yeah. I assume it is in the States. It's a major issue in Canada. Yeah. Uh, the level of driving acumen around Toronto is pitiful. Uh, nobody's paying attention. Nobody seems to care. Nobody seems to understand that they're in any danger. Uh, all of this. And, and I find, you know, I, when I get in the Jeep, I it's a stick and this is the same when you're driving most of your vehicles, your hands are full and you kind of put your phone somewhere and put on a podcast or whatever, or maybe, maybe ways or, or, or Google maps or whatever. And I do find that, especially if I'm trying to do some transit during what would be considered the work hours for Hodinkee, this may be less of a concern for you as you don't really have a boss these days other than yourself, which is sick. But for me, I have a lot of bosses and I like to be able to respond in time and quickly, or at least keep up with what I'm missing. And if I have a two hour drive ahead of me, I really like having either the Phoenix six or the descent or whatever on so that I can keep up with the messages without having to even interact with my phone. Yeah. Um, while driving and, and especially in a scenario where I don't have a free hand, you know, it's, it's challenging enough to manage a water bottle, uh, while, while keeping, uh, keeping a Jeep kind of straight driving in a straight line on all of the bumps and potholes and not hitting any cyclists and the rest of it. The, you know, the cyclists deserve the road as much as the rest of us. That's not the point I'm trying to make here. Uh, but everybody needs to be on the lookout, especially in, you know, when every street in Toronto is subject to construction at the exact same time of the year. |
| Unknown | Yeah. |
| Jason Heaton | So yeah, it's a handful. And I do find that that's another kind of tool application for the watch is it just, it's a really nice way to keep on top of your messages in an unobtrusive manner. And then when you get where you're going and you're sitting down with friends or having a coffee or whatever, you just mute it. Right. You can press and hold that one button and then turn on do not disturb. Yeah. And then it's not there and it's easy. Yeah. Solid risk check for sure. Well, that means it's time for our main topic. And this one, like I'd said, is one that we're both really excited about. We finally got a chance to have Bill Yao of Mark II and of Tornik Rayville and of the Guinea Pig zine and of, you know, he's OG in the micro brand, create your own watch space. Bill's a really sweet guy. He runs a remarkable brand that's just highly focused on quality. and being able to kind of revive designs that aren't available anymore of very rare watches. I would credit Bill and his work for kind of very much kind of turning a corner in my mind about how I interface with homage watches, especially homages to watches that you can't buy, or when you do, you may not feel comfortable wearing. Yeah. And I think that's the sweet spot. And we get into that, we get into the history of Mark II from Seiko mods to kind of full on watches to customers, to dealing with forums, homage watches, and then this brand new sort of relaunch of the Tornik Rayville name as a brand kind of next to Mark II rather than underneath Mark II or within the portfolio of Mark II. I thought this was a great chat. I'm really excited about it. We just got off the phone with Bill and he's an absolute sweetheart. So give it a listen. And then at the end, we'll throw in where you can follow him. And, uh, and of course hit the show notes for all that kind of stuff. If it's, uh, if it's easier and faster for you. Um, but like Jason likes to say without further ado, here's a Bill Yow of Mark Two, Tornick, Grayville, and, and more. |
| James | Bill Yow, it's a real pleasure to have you on the Graynado. So welcome to the show and thanks for, thanks for joining us this week. |
| Bill Yao | Yeah, it's been a real pleasure to be asked and it's a thrill to be here. |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah, I feel like this has been kind of a long time coming. I know I've mentioned on several past episodes that we're pretty keen on having you on. And then now that we've made the jump to weekly episodes, we've got this kind of like dream list of guests and your name is pretty high on it. So we're thrilled to get a chance to sit down with you, especially at a time when you're as you commonly do, but even maybe more so than the last couple of years, like moving and shaking in the watch space with some new projects between the zine and sort of a new brand within your portfolio and that sort of thing. I think there's probably a lot to get to. Uh, you know, Bill, we gave you a sort of intro before we started this recording. Um, and I, just so that people don't exclusively put in the comments on our sub stack about whether or not I got it right or wrong. I don't know if I've ever asked you this before. Is it Mark two or MK two? We pronounce it as Mark two. Yeah. |
| Bill Yao | It's a little confusing. |
| Jason Heaton | I think, I think that's how I commonly say it, but I bet you, if I lose like holding the watch in my hand and just chatting, I might say, I might say MK2, but yeah, Mark II. Okay. That's fantastic. So that's kind of where I would like to start because it's one of, you know, I can think back to, you know, kicking around on Poor Man's Watch Forum and Watch You Seek like, you know, over a decade ago and then finding Mark II and just seeing, you know, at the time you guys had a website where you could kind of customize a Seiko. Yeah, yeah. Was that the earliest permutation of the company? |
| Bill Yao | That was the earliest permutation. We started off making parts for Seiko watches, and we had a lot of help from the community in developing a website where we could actually customize the watches. The difficulty came down to a lot of the e-commerce systems just weren't sophisticated enough to support that kind of functionality. That kind of functionality, I don't think, really become available with until like the last few years. Um, so in that sense, it was, it was fun and it was unique. Uh, and we really enjoyed doing those watches. Uh, later on, we moved on to like doing watches like the quad 10, but even then, you know, there was a customization factor to it. |
| James | Bill, what, uh, what year would you say you got started? What are we talking here? Early two thousands, 2000 and, |
| Bill Yao | two, I believe it was, uh, it was the year between my first and second year of grad school. |
| James | Oh, okay. Wow. And you were then beyond that, you, you were holding down a day job as well and kind of doing this on the side that the Seiko mods and parts. |
| Bill Yao | Yeah, I started doing this probably 2000, 2001, but it was just kind of like a side hustle, so to speak. Um, I was, on like MWR, and there was this guy named Hyun Suk Seng, I don't know if I'm pronouncing that correctly, out of Korea, and he was manufacturing parts, and he was customizing watches, he's building these really, really cool, I guess you would call them restamonts now, he was taking like vintage watch cases, and old atom movements, and parting the watches together, making these really cool designs. There were things like, oh, if he's doing that, then, you know, it obviously must be obtainable for, you know, someone like me to try to do it. So I started making parts, not realizing how difficult it was. For example, in Korea, there's still a watch industry. In the United States, although it's gotten a lot better in the last 20 years, there was literally everything was just essentially dying on the vine, so to speak. It was just kind of like a slow death, whatever was left. |
| James | And, you know, okay. Early two thousands. I mean, this is even early days of, of a lot of, most of the forums were just kind of ramping up. I didn't even dip a toe into forums until probably 2006 or seven. Um, so you were, who were some of the big players back then? You know, we've, we've did an episode with a Rick Mirai who was kind of cranked up doxa back in those early days as well. Who else were you seeing around the forums at that time? in terms of brands. Dreadnought, was it like the guy out of England, Eddie Platz, was he on the scene? Yeah. |
| Bill Yao | So like I started into this because I was in banking before watchmaking. And it was one of those things where you were, you know, up late in the office waiting for word processing to turn your document around or something like that. I literally had like two hours or three hours of nothing to do and nowhere to go. Like I worked down in, uh, I guess it was battery park city and like literally everything's closed. Like after like six, everything's closed and there's no way you can get out. You know, if there was anywhere to go at one o'clock in the morning, you know, there really was nowhere for me to, there was no practical way for me to get there. So I started like surfing the internet, which was still at that point, you know, like Ashford.com was. like the big watch retailing website. And so I could just remember, like, I still kind of chase that kind of thrill of discovery where you're like on the internet, then you see this, for me, it was like a universal Genev, Tri-Compax. I just kind of like looked at that thing and just complete amazement. Then I found places like NWR and that whole idea of the tool watch was until then completely foreign to me. I didn't even know people issued watches to the military before MWR. |
| Unknown | Yeah. |
| Bill Yao | And so from there, you know, that was, that was one of the sites that I spent most of my time on. And then the other one was like, the big one was time zone and time zone was much bigger than MWR. But MWR talked about the, a subsegment that I was truly interested in. And plus, you know, you're getting like four or five hours of sleep, sometimes not any sleep at all. And that idea of something that's perfectly legible and made for those kinds of situations was really appealing. And so once I started on that, I think it was possible at the time to read literally every single page on a form. And it took me about a week, but I actually read every single page on the form. And so yeah, for the people around, The only person that was really doing this professionally, as far as I know, was like, you know, making watches and things like that was Eddie Platz. But at the time, I think he was still just retailing other people's watches, if I remember correctly. |
| James | For those, the few out there that might not be familiar, MWR being the military watch resource, were you, I found that to be kind of a tough crowd. I mean, they're really hard-nosed, hardcore military watch collectors. Were you welcomed into that community once you started? Uh, kind of recreating some of these watches. I were kind of skipping ahead a little bit, but, um, were you well-received in your efforts by the crowd there? |
| Bill Yao | Yeah, I was surprisingly well-received. I, I wasn't at that time that, that idea of people not approving of the kind of work that I do was, I really didn't occur to me that that was a possibility, uh, until later on. And, you know, so a lot of people that signed on to the watch and Thankfully so, because the first watch is always the kind of the first watch it's, it's never as good as it could be. You learn a lot during the process. So, you know, I'm thankful for the guys that, that signed on to it and took part in the project, you know, at the time, you know, I also didn't really have any money to do this. So it was kind of like Kickstarter before Kickstarter. So these guys were, a lot of these guys had taken a real leap of faith that I wasn't going to leave them high and dry and just disappear with their money. So what was the first watch? It was the Quad 10 was the first watch. And so that was a larger homage to the Mark 11. |
| Jason Heaton | And what year, what year would the Mark 10 have been? Or sorry, the, uh, the, yeah, the Quad 10? |
| Bill Yao | The Quad 10 would have been, I think 2004, 2005, if I'm not mistaken. I'm terrible with kind of keeping track of what I've done and when it happened. I usually, as soon as something's done, I move on to the next project. I'm thinking about the next thing I'm going to make. |
| Jason Heaton | But I mean, even, Even without pinpointing the date or even the year, that's really early on the side of the microbrand watch. |
| Bill Yao | I think it was me and my two other guys that were making watches. And I was probably the only one that was doing any assembly by myself. |
| Jason Heaton | How did you go from, I'd like to make a watch, to actually learning to assemble it? Were there books involved? In 2004-2005, did the TimeZone Watch School exist? Or was it just kind of buying watches, taking them apart and seeing how it. |
| Bill Yao | Oh, that's a good question. I really don't remember if the time zone watch school existed at the time. What I did, cause I had done a lot of work on Seikos. Um, I had destroyed a lot of watches in the process, uh, as well as learned a lot, like for like the quad 10, for example, if I wanted a hundred meter water resistance, you just kind of like, well, how thick does the case back out to be? How thick does the crystal have to be? You know, And so the only way to really define that out was to find, you know, to get like, you know, for example, Swiss Army watch and then take it apart and measure the crystal, measure the case back and, and figure out, you know, what the benchmarks for those kind of, for those measurements were supposed to be. So that was a lot of it. The other part of it was, you know, people on the forum were great. They were just kind of like, this is where the D10 is for the STEM release. Just make sure you do it this way and that way. Other times it was watchmakers and just kind of like, I'm really stuck here. I really don't know what to do. And they were great about pointing me in the right direction with like tools and techniques. And that was the great thing about the forum at the very beginning. I'm sure it is like that now, but I owe a lot to people just being generous with their knowledge. as well as just being forgiving of what I turned out at the very beginning. So I remember very vividly sending a watch out to a guy and him just emailing me. I was like, you know, this is great and everything, but there's something kind of bothers me about the watch you put together for me. The minute hand seems to be like curving up towards the crystal very severely. And I was just like, oh, okay, that I didn't realize was supposed to be, it was going to be a problem. And so he sent it back and then I, you know, I straightened it out. And so, A lot of my QC standards, for example, come from just feedback from customers who are just like, you know, this is great, but, or it was looking at, you know, major manufacturers like Rolex or Omega and seeing how they did things and, um, starting to acclimate yourself to the details and to, to the scale of the parts you're working with. |
| James | You mentioned your, um, your QC process and how it's evolved. And I think as I. Have, um, observed over the years that the two things that mark two has been known for two of the primary things that mark two has been known for is your extremely high quality, your attention to detail, but also your long lead times, which kind of rubs some people the wrong way. So, you know, one kind of has to, I guess one goes along with the other. You must just have a certain set of standards that you're not willing to compromise on in order to shorten timelines. Is that a fair, fair statement? |
| Bill Yao | I think yes and no. It's, um, it's one of those things when there are no guidelines, like I think what a lot of people don't realize and what I didn't realize at the beginning was that a lot of this stuff just really isn't written down. Like if you work in a brand or within a factory, um, there are certain standards, you know, there are certain quality control standards, but they're not really detailed for public consumption. You know, no one expects you to be able to find this information. And at that, at that point in the internet's development, a lot of this information wasn't even online like it is today. So a lot of my high quality control is just deciding, okay, well, this is what I want it to be. This is what I, what bothers me about a watch that I bought. So a lot of this, a lot of the Mark II watches that developed were just kind of out of the idea of receiving somebody else's watch and just being very disappointed in like the way the bezel works or the quality of the crystal or the dial or the hands or, and just being like, well, you know, for this, for this kind of money, I just, you know, I just expected more. And so that informed my, my quality control standards. But at the same time, you know, I've talked to vendors, especially from like our development of the ready to wear line, Which is, you know, a little bit tongue-in-cheek because this idea that, you know, the watches should actually be available in a reasonable time frame for when you order it is kind of why we named it the ready-to-wear line. But we're fully aware of that sense of, I guess, irony. But, you know, I'll be talking to these vendors and they're just kind of like, yeah, you know, this is great and all. this quality control standard is more akin to a watch that retails for $10,000 or $15,000. And so then I was just kind of like, okay, so I, part of this is that I'm just doing way too much and I'm just kind of killing myself for a standard that is just, you know, way above what's necessary. But for other things like, you know, our Benchcrafted line, there is a connection I developed with these designs that I I kind of don't want to do it in any other way. So I've just decided that we're just not going to necessarily focus on volume like the way we would with the ready to wear line. So for like the, the project 300, the most common question we get is that, is it sold out? Uh, and the answer is no, it's just that instead of making you wait two or three years for the watch, we've basically reworked the process. with a lot of people's patience, like the plank owners and the pre-orders, customers notoriously long lead time for the actual watch itself. But from there, we're able to turn it to the point where we're just like, we made eight watches, this is what's available, and then you just buy what we have, we can deliver in the next couple of weeks. And then when we have more, we'll let you know, instead of making people wait for years for a watch and then having to deal with the stress of corresponding with them and answering questions about what the process is, what's the holdup, and those kinds of administrative tasks. |
| Jason Heaton | Absolutely. Yeah, that's fascinating. And I'd like to turn, if we can, to the designs. A couple years ago, we did an episode on homage watches. I'll admit that I took probably an overly stiff stance against homage watches. And whether I just take myself less seriously two years later, or I'm not really sure, but I've, I've really softened to the idea. And I think part of that is, is I've experienced some, some that really speak to me in a way that, that feels special and distinct from the original. Oh, interesting. I think that you have, I think that you have probably, like if I were to buy an homage watch, a Mark II would be very high on my list. And I've had really good experiences, obviously with the quality, like you've already spoken to, but also just with your ability to find some finesse within the design, despite the fact that it is, you know, referencing an already established design. Did you always have a, have a love for the, the idea of, you know, recreating either something that's not available or isn't available at a given price point? |
| Bill Yao | Yeah, for me, it was not necessarily the price point. It was the fact that was unavailable. So there were two instances, like really, really early on was that I'd always loved the, the blank pen 50,000 design. And back in the early two thousands, no one was making an including bank blank pen that they had. Like, I think the watch was called the air command and they had like this raised like white gold bezel or something like that. Oh, that relief bezel. |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah. Yeah. |
| Bill Yao | Yeah. And then that was kind of similar to the original design, but it wasn't really, wasn't, wasn't really referencing like the, the first design, for example, you know, I think it had like applied numerals to it and things like that. So I found a watch made by a company that I'm sure has gone under since then called Sigma or something like that. And it looked just like the, the old 50 fathoms and it was coming out of Switzerland. And, but then everything else was wrong with the watch, you know, the case design was great, but it was like water resistant to three atmospheres. Uh, It had a rotating bezel, but no luminous pip to it. And the dial was awful. Like, you know, it was just kind of like, oh, you know, this could have been so much more. And the other reason why I got into this was that I was lucky enough to own a couple of vintage watches in my time. And one of them is, for example, a military Seamaster. And that was, you know, that was just dumb luck. I took a chance on a On a Seamaster with terrible pictures on it. Maybe you are coming out of Italy at a time when a lot of fake Seamasters were being sold out of Italy for some reason, because I'm not disparaging Italians. They were just for some reason, geographically coming out of Italy for some reason. And so I just took a chance on it. And luckily it was that I got was real. And but, you know, it was this thing listening to this one guy named Bill. Takawa's obsession with the Seamaster 300 and talking about how difficult it was to try to repair the inlays. And so this was before like the Washco Seamasters were coming out and those parts were available. He was desperately trying to repair a Seamaster 300's acrylic insert where the water had seeped into the tritium and the tritium expands when it's exposed to water and it cracked the inlay. So a lot of the 300s you saw were were cracked, the inlays were cracked, or just, you know, completely wrecked. And I was lucky that the military semester that I had, had an original inlay, and it was in one piece. Well, I'm just doing simple things like washing the dishes or washing my hands and or going outside. And this is before like the weather channel app and just like, well, what happens if it rains? And then I just got to the point where I just couldn't enjoy the wash. It was just I was like I became a caretaker or something, when I just really wanted to wear it. And so I sold it. And I just, I just like, you know, if I can't, I'm not going to wear, this isn't an investment to me, I'm just going to sell it. And so, you know, fortunately, because I had gotten the watch, under those circumstances, it was I paid a little bit less than market value. So I made a little bit of money on the watch, which was great. Unfortunately, like six years later, it hammered at Omega Mania for like 40,000 francs. Not that watch, but a watch very similar to it. So obviously, that's the kind of luck that I have. But that's what prompted me to make these watches. I just didn't want to worry about it. So one of the first watches we did was the Blackwater. And so the Type 1 design is iconic. and just so captivating. But the engineering of the watch because of the time in which it was made is so technically flawed by today's standards. So, you know, the split stem, you know, the pressure fitted acrylic crystal and the fact that you have to take everything out of the front, which means you have to disassemble everything out of the front. And I own a type two and I don't, I never wear it because I don't know. I took three watches. It took me, finding three different type one, type two watches, and then parting them all together to get one usable watch. And that was extraordinarily expensive for one. And then two, I'm still not quite sure it's got all its parts. Like it feels like it's missing something, but I don't know. So, you know, and then, you know, so wearing a paradigm for me is just, infinitely more enjoyable is just grab and go, you know, set the time, I don't have to worry about it. I know if I break something, it's going to be reasonably repairable, and it's going to be easy to repair. And, and that's kind of what I want. I wanted to experience the designs, I wanted to see what it was like, you know, to wear the designs doing things that I wanted to do, whether it was like hiking, or if you're swimming, or uh, to really get a sense of what it was like to look down at that watch and kind of like connect to the people that, that wore the watches in combat or under adverse conditions and just really kind of see the world through their eyes very briefly in a very small way. |
| James | So I want to interject here with a bit of a, I don't know, maybe it's just a statement that we can all sort of think about, talk about. And that is, um, you know, when you talk about homage watches, uh, you know, say a Mark two Kingston or something, um, or the paradigm, um, people think, Oh, homage watch. But if you look at something, I'm currently wearing an Aqua star, deep star, the, the, the new release from last year, the chronograph, the chronograph, which is wonderful. And I love it. And then, but then you look at, you know, the current docks, a brand or what Nevada Grenchen is doing or whatever. Now, most people would look at that and be okay with that and not see that as controversial and think, well, that's it. They're going under the original name, right? You know, presumably a lot of these are revived brands. They're the, the name has been purchased, you know, Alsta or, you know, any of these brands and they're recreating these watches right down to the, you know, to the font used on the dial. And I'm thinking, are these, are these also homage watches and why are people kind of a little bit more okay with that than something that doesn't have the original name on it, but looks just like the, the one it's referring to. |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah. And if, if I can jump in, I would say like, I'm more than willing to eat some crow. I mentioned this a few minutes ago with, with the stance I took in the homage episode from a couple of years back. Cause if I look back on that, for the most part, it's just gatekeeping. Like I'm just keeping people from enjoying a hobby that I love. And it was really, it was really like it, not, I don't think it was necessarily an unfair opinion, but it's an opinion that I I've been challenged to change. And I think that there's a more holistic view to take. I may still run a pretty hard stance on a watch that looks identical to a modern watch and is made to look as much like it as possible, but have just the only difference is the text just below the 12 marker. There's lots of brands that do that. But when you're talking about watches, whether it's a... Yeah, a Paradive is one of the ones that absolutely changed my mind on this, because I was like, I actually don't want the old one. Cause I've had some time with them and they're, they're kind of wobbly and, uh, and they're a little bit scared to wear on wrist for what they're worth. And these are, these are much more lovable and likable and super wearable is the big thing. And yeah, no, I think, uh, I think I absolutely agree with that. Uh, uh, kind of the core of that point, Jason, I think that it speaks to ensuring that there's some enthusiasm that goes into making these decisions rather than just kind of asset class or collector class work. And, and I think for a lot of what, We do, you know, at least the three of us chatting here today. It's a lot of it's about enthusiasm. |
| James | Well, and I think, you know, to your point about, you know, taking a currently available watch and making something that looks just like it, except for the name, like, I don't know, it's easy to pick on Invicta, but, you know, I'm sure they have a watch that looks just like a Submariner. Right. Now that's a currently available watch. Now, Bill, what you're doing by and large with Mark II is you're taking watches that are no longer available. As you mentioned, you want to be able to wear a Seamaster 300 in the rain or, you know, washing the dishes or swimming or whatever. Yeah. That's no longer available. That's a, that's kind of a different, you know, it's a subtle difference, but it's a, it's a, it is a difference. Um, you know, your quote unquote homage watches are to a past design. That's no longer available as opposed to, you know, just aping something that's currently available from a different brand. |
| Bill Yao | Yeah. For me, like, I guess, I don't really want to just put myself on a pedestal or appear like I'm getting on a moral high horse. But the idea for Mark II, for example, is that we're not likely to do a watch just because we can make it cheap. Likely we're making the watch in a way that the, say like IWC, wouldn't want to make it today. So when we did the Mark 11 style watch, They were doing like the Mark 15 at the time and it was kind of similar, but, you know, we changed the case size because at the time the trend was toward larger watches and they didn't seem to make any indication that they were making, they were going to make a larger watch. So this is before like the IWC big pilots watch, for example, and, or like for the Kingston, for example, like I was talking to a collector and he had a, an old Rolex. It was a slightly different reference, but it was like the same era. And he was just kind of like, you know, totally make this watch. You know, I would totally buy this, even though I consider myself a serious collector, because I can't wear this in the summer. For whatever reason, like my combination of my body heat and the old gaskets in this watch is that every time I wear this in the summer, the watch fogs. So I'd rather just have something that I can wear out in the rain. And, you know, Rolex did, this was before the Tudor Black Bay and all that. So the idea of doing that watch was something that Rolex wasn't doing. They didn't seem like they were interested in doing it. And so I felt like it was okay for me to do it. And I felt reasonably sure I was doing it in a way that they wouldn't have done it. So where there are other brands that, for example, call themselves Amish watches, there clearly is just a value play. And that to me, isn't terribly interesting unless you're trying to you know, recreate, I don't know, I guess there, I can't think of a single brand at the moment that is recreating an old watch and they're just charging stupid money for it because they can. But I'm sure there's something out there like that, but the idea of value play just really isn't important to us. What we're trying to do is we believe like for example, something should exist. That's one of the reasons why we did this is because we're looking at a design, we're looking at a watch or looking at an idea and saying to ourselves, why doesn't this exist? Like, so for example, the Crucible watches, you know, there are people doing, you know, A11 style watches and they have been done before. But for us, the challenge was to make this design more contemporary in some sense, more accessible. And we feel like it should be kind of like a a pure watch from like IWC or Laco or something like that. This watch should be, is iconic enough that there should be like four companies making it. There should be a celebration of this design. And the only things that we can see are just like terrible, terrible copies of the design and just kind of lazy design work. And so we really felt like no one was really paying the respect that the history of the design and design itself really deserved. So it was more than just, you know, saying, OK, this is popular, let's do one. Or it was always like, oh, we think we can do it in a way that's more respectful than design or we can do something like for the crucible. The development was like something like six or seven years long. It was a very, very difficult design to try to turn into something that was wearable by modern standards. |
| Jason Heaton | So, well, I mean, speaking of a difficult design that, that, you know, needs to come up to modern standards, how about, how about we move over to Tornek Rayville? So I'll say what I, at least how I would describe this, but I'd love to be corrected. This is a, it's not a, it's not a mark two brand, but it is another brand kind of within your personal portfolio. Correct. At this point. |
| Bill Yao | Yeah, we made the decision to, say to ourselves that, you know, the Tornek Rabil as an idea could be much more than just the original watch. And so, therefore, we felt like it could be much more than just a Tornek Rabil by Mark II kind of watch. |
| Jason Heaton | But you're probably the right guy to ask. Let's have your kind of elevator pitch on the background of Tornek Rabil and why it's worth kind of resurfacing and kind of rethinking the design and doing something that kind of reimagines it for now. |
| Bill Yao | But the tourniquet was an idea. If you put it in the context and you think about it, which until I had gone through this branding exercise with our marketing guru, John, I didn't realize it was actually the first combat dive watch that the U.S. military had ever put into service. So for like the canteen divers, if you go through the history of the watch itself and how it was used and what the UDT did in World War II, It was really a combat swimmers watch. It was never really meant to go beyond like five or 10 feet underwater. It was just meant to be, you know, what equivalent would be like a splash proof watch today. And so the TR-900 was actually the first real combat dive watch the US military had put into service. And so from that standpoint, it is, in my opinion, just as iconic as, you know, the first Submariner or the first Seamaster watches in that sense, from an American perspective. |
| Jason Heaton | And so we're looking at a 40 millimeter steel dive watch. And it is, you know, in many ways it plays on the same design lineage as the Blancpain of that era, the early kind of sporty dive watches. And in this case, you're looking at, I'm just reading the specs here for people who may have missed this. Cause I think the week it came out or the week it kind of launched, we were doing a Q and A episode. So we haven't talked about it. holistically on the show. Um, 14.7 millimeters thick, 48.5 millimeter lug to lug, which is great. 20 millimeter lugs, 84 grams. Uh, you know, you get a Sapphire crystal, uh, it's running, uh, any 15, uh, movement and 200 meters water resistance. And it comes on a sort of, um, textile strap. |
| Bill Yao | Yeah. So thanks to people like, um, Rob Fraser at like AFO 210. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah. |
| Bill Yao | He's great. Yeah. We got into these, these, we were looking at the straps that he was doing and he was exploring and you know, it was just one of those things that was right in front of us and we just never paid it really any attention and we realized, Oh, this is a strap that's unique to American military watches. They use it on compasses and things like that. And it had a very unique weight pattern and, What, what Rob is doing is already amazing. So we thought, okay, well, this is, you know, this is still related to Mark too, in that sense, with this guy, the same philosophy, who, how would we want to, to make it today? And thinking back to all of your Instagram posts, James, about all the cutting the tabs off the bottom of the NATO and things like that. So we were just kind of like, we're definitely going to make this pre-cut. So we're just going to, we're going to leave that extra piece off because you had, you had generated apparently It's kind of like this surge of people that were anti anti flap, I guess you'd call it for lack of a better, better phrase. So and that's where that strap came from. So it was kind of a hybrid of a NATO and what would have been the military spec in 63. |
| Jason Heaton | Now they're all sold out for anyone that's listening or story to say sell out the first set of slots is now sold out. |
| Bill Yao | Yeah, I think What's important for people to know is that there is going to be, there are going to be more watches. So the, like, for example, like the Kingston being so sought after was completely unintentional. The idea was not to take something that was already hard to get, and then make something else that was going to be hard to get. That wasn't the concept. The concept was that, you know, these dials are really hard to make, and this is really expensive. And to continue to make this watch is going to be like ruinously expensive. |
| Jason Heaton | So we'll make it a limited edition. So you're starting with 175 slots, which sold out, my guess is the day of, on the 21st? |
| Bill Yao | Yeah, it sold out on the day of. And so there are going to be more watches. It's just that it's very difficult to kind of correspond with essentially 200 people and to kind of keep them well-informed and to you know, deal with the people that are, you know, a little bit more enthusiastic than the others, I guess is a nice way to put it. And so managing all those personalities can be challenging and just, you know, opening up to everybody and then, you know, dealing with people that have, um, that changed their minds. And, uh, it's a lot of admin. And so even this is already going to be a lot of admin, unfortunately, hopefully for not too long. So we had to limit the number of spaces just because it's going to be It's a lot of work to keep everybody in the loop and to keep everybody happy. |
| Jason Heaton | For sure. I'm curious, to round that out, the pricing is $8.95, which is killer. I love the three-figure price points on anything that people go crazy for. That kind of overlap of genuine enthusiasm and a price point that most people that are into watches, whether you flip a watch or you have an operating budget for these sorts of things, you could make it happen. I think that's a great price point to kind of hit, especially when compared to where really any other expression of a similar dive watch sits. So you get the value statement along with just kind of being in that sweet spot for a lot of people. I'm curious, how different is it to launch or relaunch in some ways? Like you said, this was originally a one watch sort of thing, not a whole brand, but how different is it to launch torn at Grayville than it was to kind of launch Mark II, you know, the better part of almost 20 years ago. |
| Bill Yao | So in some sense, it's a lot easier because it's tidier. Like it's a much more curated group of products, whereas Mark II is just kind of like this sprawling thing of things like, you know, that's all like we want to do it again. But the question is when we have time to do it again. And when will we have time to do it again where people aren't waiting years to get to take delivery of the watch? So in essence, it's kind of a relief to look at a website. It's only got like 10 things. But at the same time, it was much more challenging in the sense that, you know, you know, working with, I don't know if people know this, but, you know, John Gaffney's put a lot of work into, you know, Mark II and N220 in particular. And it was, you know, eye-opening to see how we could tell a much tighter and much more coherent story with Tornek. And that was an enormous amount of work to distill it down to something that was relatively easy to understand because, you know, I've done, I've read like numerous books on, you know, the Vietnam War, the World War II, and a lot of U.S. military history. and kind of trying to distill that down into, you know, a couple of images on a web page is, uh, without his help and without my wife's help would have been impossible. It would have just ended up being this kind of like a cacophony of ideas and images all slapped together. |
| Jason Heaton | So, and I guess some of the, some of the tools that are available now are a lot more developed than they would have been 20, like even, even just the existence of Instagram, not necessarily as a tool, but as a, as a sort of communication metric. Uh, it must be, it must be kind of an, Is it easier to get your... Does it feel like it's easier to get the watch to the people who would actually love it than it was when you were kind of starting out with Mark II and forums and things like that? |
| Bill Yao | I feel like we're actually kind of at an inflection point where it's going to gradually be getting much more difficult. So in that sense, if I was starting like Tornek from scratch, with no existing business and no existing mailing list and things like that. I'm not really sure we would have been met with the enthusiasm that we've been able to enjoy for the project in that Instagram has that potential, but the way that Instagram is kind of run, so to speak, or the algorithm works, makes it difficult to reach the people that you want to reach without paying a lot of money. And so, you know, I don't begrudge them that, but I do have issues with how, I really don't know what I'm working with from that standpoint. |
| Jason Heaton | And I guess the signal to noise is a lot different than it was 20 years ago in terms of the siloed focuses of various audiences. Yeah. There's maybe way more noise than there used to be. |
| Bill Yao | There is a tremendous amount, much more competition for sure. And there's a lot more people vying for the same customer's attentions. And so, you know, one of the things that is kind of like the ongoing challenge for us is to just ask ourselves simply the question, you know, why do we deserve to continue to exist? And so, and answering that question has been what has been driving us toward this, uh, in this direction of putting more time and effort into say, for example, storytelling and branding. And, um, I feel like, and then in that sense, making the communication much more meaningful to customers and also making it much more interesting for them to follow rather than just, uh, I think the idea of just posting pictures on Instagram, this isn't going to be enough anymore. I think you need to really not necessarily sell the watch to people, but, you know, really give them a real understanding of why this deserves their attention and why this deserves their patronage. |
| James | So, I'm curious, um, why it was important to you to, to, to purchase or whatever the correct terminology is that the, the tornic Rayville name, in this case, and I know you've owned that name for a number of years. I think 2009 is what I've read somewhere, but why was that important as opposed to launching this watch under the Mark II name like you've done with, you know, the Paradive and the Kingston and some of the others? I think you did sort of the Seafighter, I believe, was your earlier kind of TR kind of homage watch a number of years ago. Why was it important to you to do it under the Tornik Ravel name? |
| Bill Yao | What it was is that I couldn't believe at the time that no one wanted this brand. And so I was just like sitting there going things like, you know, this, this has so much potential. And it's just, you know, it's such an integral part of, you know, American watch the story, like the American military watches, which is what I was interested in. And so I just couldn't believe that no one was, no one was interested in, no one wanted to kind of tell a story. No one wanted to, take it, you know, bring it forward and make it relevant again to people. And so that's, I don't know what, I don't know what you want to, it almost was kind of an imperative for me to just to say, this is something that should exist. |
| James | So. Well, also kind of cool to be able to put the name on the dial again, I mean, for a watch that hasn't seen the light of day and such a rare watch that, you know, nobody has seen that name on a, on a dial and you know, what, 70 plus years, it's, uh, That's pretty special as well. |
| Bill Yao | And the way that was presented is it's kind of written in a way that's really not done. And, and there's kind of weird kind of like, I don't know what you want to call it. It's almost grotesque, but at the same time, it's, it's attractive and it's weirdness. And so in that sense, it's, it's, um, that's kind of what it makes it so charming and that dollar sign. So like one of the people that posted on, uh, one of our, threads or something on Instagram was just kind of like, you know, why is the font so big? And I simply said to them, like the font so big is because it's kind of like iconic to the to the first watch. And so we felt like that wasn't something that we could change and still enable it to to kind of like to follow its lineage back to the to the first one. |
| Unknown | Yeah. |
| Bill Yao | Like for me, example, for example, it just, it was just something that really captivated my imagination. And I guess, you know, I was unique at the time and fine and thinking this, you know, interesting. |
| James | So, yeah. You, you mentioned John Gaffney and I got to give him a shout out here. I'm sure he's listening, you know, he and I, I think we were hired as freelancers at gear patrol at the same time back in, I think Oh eight or Oh nine. And it's been fun to watch him work with you. And then I know that, um, Maybe this is a good time to pivot into, into the magazine you, you launched, uh, I guess earlier this year. And, uh, I know you had his help with that as well as, uh, Chris White, who was another old gear patrol guy. But before I move into that, um, you know, I'm wearing this, uh, American trench Tornick Rayville shirt that you guys produced. And I thought that was such a, for one thing, it's a great shirt. Um, the, the Tornick Rayville name sort of presents. interesting ideas for branding for you. I mean, the shirt was great. I'd love to see you spin off more of this kind of stuff, but I guess the flip side of that is there really is only one, correct me if I'm wrong, one watch historically with that name on it. So can you, will you be, and you don't have to give it away at this point, but you know, will you produce other watches with that name on it? Or is this the one that we'll just, you'll make? |
| Bill Yao | Yeah, we don't want to give too much away right now, but we do feel like the brand or the idea of it, the concept of it, has a lot more legs to it. So, for example, there are side products that we've done and our friends at American Trench are just amazing. They do some incredible work and they're kind of of the same mindset in the sense that they're just, they look at, you know, American clothing and just like, you know, why, why don't we make more clothes here? Why don't we spend more time and energy buying good things, not just, you know, things that are, you know, trendy or fashionable. And so they have done for us that t-shirt, but they also, so the plank owners for the tour way back in, it was, February seems like years ago, but it was only like 18 months ago because of COVID. It seems a lot longer than that, but they did for us a, what we call the crewman jacket. So it was a. Sweatshirt, a separate sweatshirt that looked a lot like the jet deck jackets you had from like the fifties and sixties that the Navy used to issue. Yeah. And it was actually manufactured here locally in Pennsylvania. And so we kind of screen printed it so it looked vaguely like you were on a ship and you got a box of jackets and then you had to mark them with your ship's name so that they wouldn't kind of walk away or get reappropriated to somebody else's ship who didn't have enough jackets or something like that. And so we made it, we gave it that feel. And so we really felt that this had the possibility of being more than just watches. I think John during our branding exercise process, not to kind of like pull the curtain back too much, uh, was just kind of like, you know, there should be a company that is, that makes watches, but isn't just, but isn't a watch company. And that I think was like pivotal for our way of looking at it. And, um, it also gave me a great excuse to do another project with American Trench that has just started shipping in the last like couple of weeks. So, We started doing a jacket called, we call it the zero zero check, but it's based on a jacket called the one zero check by collectors. And it's essentially a windbreaker that the, uh, studies and observations group guys from, from McAfee SOG war. And it was originally intended to be a, a combat jacket. They were supposed to be like wearing them in the jungle, uh, because it was black and it was water resistant. They, you know, the people, the supply on SOG thought this was, you know, a perfect, uh, outer garment that they could wear. And the guys, when they took them into the bush turn, it turned out that just made way too much noise. And so, you know, they had these boatload of jackets and they're just like, oh, screw it. You know, the, the, the weird thing about Vietnam was that there was like this tremendous, like tailoring industry in, in the country. And so they started embroidering the jackets with like, you know, the McAfee Zog insignias with their team names. And, you know, it was and it was actually driving like the the the the command generals and officers crazy because everything they were doing was strictly black. Like it was completely like under the radar. It was supposed to be secret. You know, they weren't supposed to be they weren't supposed to even exist. And then you hear these guys are walking around Saigon with these jackets with their unit names on them and everything. And it turned into the team jackets. And so, you know, when I ran across that story doing, you know, research for the paradigm, I thought that was just, you know, tremendous. And then we should, we should do it. We should do that, for example. And so those started shipping just a couple of weeks ago. You know, we'll post something online later on. We just haven't gotten to it yet, but, you know, we hope people will enjoy like these kinds of side projects and, Uh, there's going to be more to come. Uh, I just, I just don't want to give away too much of the moment. So we have a lot, we have big plans for the, for the brand and for the idea. |
| James | So, yeah. Well, tell us how the, the, I mean, as if you don't have enough going on, tell us a little bit about how this, uh, this guinea pig zine came about. |
| Jason Heaton | I love it by the way. |
| Bill Yao | Oh, I'm so glad to hear that. It's just one of those things where just, it's a lot like what I've a lot of these side projects that I've done, I'm just kind of like, Oh, how much is it going to cost? And then just think to myself, well, I can afford to lose that kind of money. So let's just do it anyway. You know? And so, you know, it's, it's, um, I, I looked at like, it's almost like the same thing with the watches, right? It's just this like, Oh, I think, you know, people should have a chance to enjoy this. I should, people have to have a chance to kind of, use and experience the design the way it was intended. And so this was kind of our, our way of saying, okay, well, we looked at a lot of like other brand magazines and, and, you know, they're, they're, they're great in their own way, but I don't find myself reading them. I don't find myself wanting to go get a copy of other people's brand magazines, even like the really high end ones where they're talking about, you know, some sort of, you know, winery somewhere, You know, I, you know, I just kind of, this is great, but you know, I, I, I don't want to read this. And so, yeah, I can find you give it to me for free, but the reality is I'm just probably going to recycle it. Like the minute I get home. Yeah. And, um, I felt like, well, why don't we create something that people would act might actually want to read that something that, um, really kind of solves this. It was kind of an extension of that idea that we want, like, so If we do like the paradigm, we want people to take it out there. We don't, you know, for some people it's going to be the nicest watch they own, which is great. And so if they want a baby, they want to take care of it and they want to treat it like they're special, the watch they wear on special occasions, you know, that's completely fine. That's completely up to them. And, you know, we're happy to be that watch for them. But for a lot of people, we want them to say, okay, so you own a type one or what have you, or you own a, a vintage Rolex, a Bond Submariner, you know, we want you to take this diving. We want you to go out there. And so some paradise that made it out into the field. So I have this one good customer that took it to Afghanistan and he was out there, you know, as an EOD tech wearing this watch. Yeah. And that's where we want people to develop their own story with the watch. We want, we don't want them just to say, you know, I had this thing that, you know, You know, I bought from an ABC or that, you know, Wharton in the latter part of Vietnam and, and for that history to stop there, we want them to take that design and build their own story around it. And so getting big one zero was kind of that extension of when you think about all the really, the things that really, really give you joy and that really, really kind of captivate your imagination. In my mind, there are two different things. One of them is that. those events that kind of shift your perspective on things that make you think, Oh my God, this is like a whole new way of looking at things. And the other is just those, you know, share experiences. Like when I think about the times when I'm I've ever, I've ever been most happiest is that idea of being with a group of friends or being with my extended family around the table, you know, sharing stories or sharing a bottle of wine or something like that. And just, you know, just kind of like losing ourselves in the moment. And so this idea of getting big one zero is just. This idea of just trying to hopefully refocus people's imaginations on what they can do as individuals rather than what they can aspire to. You know, you know, it's it's great to go to the Bahamas and have a great vacation and all that, but. You know, wouldn't it be just as great if you were doing something that you have to do, like mending a pair of pants and then creating something that's it's desirable in its own right and turning it, elevating something that's what seems mundane into something that's truly desirable. |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah. The Shishiko coverage in this is fantastic. I really enjoyed it. |
| Bill Yao | Yeah. So when I discovered that concept, I was just like, this is, you know, I had seen it once before in a store called Blue and Green in Soho. And it was a Japanese brand that had taken some torn up, I think OG 107 shirts and then had patched it in a way that was really, really beautiful. And then John was just kind of like, Oh yeah, I'm into that. I'm like, you're into that. Like this is, and so he was like, it's like, that's, that's amazing. Like what, what are you doing? And then he showed me some of these pants that he had done for his partner, Gail. And just looking at these things and they're just like this, they're almost like so beautiful. They're just kind of like, I don't, I don't know if I can wear this out or And that's, you know, something from almost nothing essentially is your time and your imagination. And I want people to, to remember in that sense that, you know, they still have that power to be producers, not just creators. I mean, not just consumers in that sense. And so like, you know, like Chris, Chris Walling, the idea of snorkeling and river, a lot of people are just like, I didn't know you could do that. And that, you know, kind of changes your idea on, on things. And also apparently it's a lot more dangerous than you would think it is. Um, but you know, there are those stories out there that, uh, are just a real celebration of people's creativity and things that are attainable. Just that idea that, you know, you're, you don't have to wait to be rich, to be happy. Like you can live, you know, fulfilling lives and do interesting things. You know, money really isn't everything. |
| Jason Heaton | Bill. I think that's a great, a great, uh, kind of, ethos to end on. I think we could probably do this for a few more hours and maybe we can over time. We would love to have you back on, but we want to be, you know, respectful of your time and everything. So, you know, thank you so much for coming on and man, it's a treat to talk to you. It's been so long since we sat on Lafayette there and had a coffee. It feels like years ago. I guess at this point it was kind of years ago. But yeah, this is such a treat. Thank you so much. |
| James | Well, thanks so much, Bill, for joining us and have a great rest of the week. |
| Bill Yao | Yeah, you too, guys. |
| Jason Heaton | Thank you. All right. All the best. |
| James | Bye. All right. Well, thanks for that, Bill. Once again, you know, we're just so thrilled to have been able to feature Bill Yao on the show and we hope everybody really responds well to that and certainly leave comments and feedback. And I'm sure Bill will be checking in on the show notes afterwards for anybody's feedback. But yeah, that was great. And we look forward to more chats with more interesting people now that we're weekly. I think we're going to keep keep the momentum going here with, with interesting guests. |
| Jason Heaton | Absolutely. And we didn't have Bill explain this at the end. We, we, we got glossed over, but you can find Mark Two Watches at marktwowatch on Instagram, M-K-I-I watch on Instagram. And of course you can find, uh, their actual brand is not that much harder to find M-K-I-I watches.com. Uh, so give them a follow, show them some love. He's doing great work. And, uh, and if you're keen, Maybe subscribe to whatever newsletter they have about the Tornic Rayville stuff, because they're essentially pre-selling them in slots so that production doesn't get all messed up. So if you're keen and you want one, that's absolutely the way to go about it. It looks like a solid watch and certainly you can't argue too much with that price point. Yeah, definitely. Feeling a little bit of a final note to put a bow on it? |
| James | Yeah, let's do it. You've got two, I've got one. So why don't you go first and bookend. |
| Jason Heaton | I do. Uh, so my first one is actually a Seiko that you can buy that I think is super awesome and is $45. Uh, so I hope you're excited. It's not a watch. It is a kind of alarm clock desk clock, and it's kind of shaped like one of those, um, like sprint timers that would allow an audience up in a stand to see, you know, very accurate time, uh, maybe for a hundred or a 400 meter race or whatever, but it's quite small. It's, it's only, um, You know, it's a rectangle with depth, and it's a few inches across and maybe an inch deep. It runs on batteries. It has a backlight. It's called the Victory Marathon Alarm Clock. It's $45, bright yellow on a little matching yellow metal stand. And it does, you know, time, date, and a chronograph. I absolutely love this thing. It's hilarious. It's small. I didn't look at the dimensions when we ordered it. And they'd recently done a sort of Supreme collaboration, which is what put the yellow one on my radar, I would not buy. If you like Supreme, that's fine. I think it's it bugs me for a lot of different reasons. And I wouldn't buy something simply because it says Supreme on it. But I do really dig this simple yellow one. It looks really cool on a desk. I love that it has a backlight. But it's an on demand backlight. So if you don't like having light in your bedroom, and you want this on your bedside table, you can reach over and just touch the button on the top and it lights up yellow. And then, um, you know, either when you release the button or a moment later, I don't remember it then shuts off, but it's, um, a sort of negative LCD. So, uh, it's a black base with a kind of yellowy gold numbers on top. And I think it's absolutely, uh, super, super cool. I think it's super fun. Um, it has, uh, an alarm and of course a snooze function, calendar, a backlight. Uh, it's a, it's a neat thing. I'll, I'll throw it in the show notes. It's a, uh, it's a replica of a marathon timer, apparently. Uh, so like I had said, you know, some of those big clocks you would see that, that, that allow people to kind of experience time from the stands. Uh, it's that, but it's, it's desk sized. I mean, it's, it has a smaller footprint than my phone. |
| James | It's, it's pretty cool. I've got one on order. I mean, after you. Um, you know, sent me the link. I immediately ordered it. I think this is just so cool that my, my buddy Paul, who helped with the depth charge cover design, he, he bought one a long time ago and then he'd sent me a picture of it and I thought it was really cool. But then, then when you bought one, I was like, yeah, okay, I need one of these. And I think it's particularly fitting with the Tokyo Olympics going on. Oh, absolutely. You know, it's like, you're seeing these types of clocks probably with an Omega name on it, but you know, Seiko has a history of, of track and field timing and Olympics and whatever. So that's, uh, That's super cool. I can't wait. Mine is en route. I hope it arrives sometime this week. So that's a great one. |
| Jason Heaton | We often get to talk about Seikos that aren't too expensive, but not 45 bucks usually. So yeah, if you want a little trinket for your desk or for your nighttide table or really a really sweet gift for a friend in your life or someone you can't visit with and have a coffee or dinner, you could send them this and they'll think of you. It's this like really punchy, bright yellow. It's got Seiko on it, really big in that great font. Oh yeah. I love it. Super fun. Uh, you don't get that lot this much fun for $45 all that often. Yeah. So I figured it was worth, uh, worth a mention. |
| James | Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, um, mine is, it's another podcast and it's called Smashville. Wait, there are other podcasts? A handful. Yeah. Just, just, I thought it was just us out there in the ether. Our voices alone. Yeah. No, it's called Smashville and it's from our chum. Uh, one half of it is our chum, Andy Green, uh, of the OT podcast. So he's, uh, Oh, right. I do know that one. He's into podcasts. Uh, Andy, you know, formerly of time and tide, he's kind of something of an Instagram presence and, and just an all around nice guy. Um, and then he partnered with James McVay, uh, who is a fairly well-known chap. He's a, he's English and he's the guitarist for a band called the vamps. He has a pretty big following on Instagram and, something of a watch nerd as well. I've seen him wear a Bremont recently online and, um, seems like a nice guy and, uh, they both have a love of music. Uh, you'd expect that of a guitarist for a band. Um, but it's not what you expect because, uh, Andy's Australian, James is British and the podcast is about country and Western music, which is a, you know, such a distinctly kind of American genre. And admittedly, I am not a, I'm I've never been a country fan. I used to really be snobby against country music, but you know, the right, the right country music. Now I can, I'm learning to appreciate, and I think that's what this podcast is about. These guys are coming at it from different perspectives as well. And I think their enthusiasm for it isn't from kind of a background of, of country music, but of kind of an appreciation from afar that that has grown. And so they've decided to put together. this, uh, podcast about country music and each episode, um, they'll either have a guest who's a country Western musician, or they'll just kind of highlight the music from a certain band or genre. And, uh, you know, I've listened to a couple of them and it's great. The guys are, um, they're fun to listen to. Um, obviously very, Andy's a very accomplished podcaster and, uh, and James is an interesting guy. So, um, give it, give it a go. Uh, it's called Smashville and, uh, Yeah, they're relatively new, so they can certainly use the support. So, you know, give it a try. If you like it, you can keep subscribing and listen to it. |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah, very cool. And good work on Andy for continuing to get out there. You know, we're huge fans of him and what he does. So that's awesome. Yeah. All right. You've got another one. And yeah, so for my next one, I have a trailer for a movie called The Alpinist, which is from Roadside Flicks, the folks behind Valley Uprising and The Dawn Wall. And quick note, if you haven't seen those, you should. literally finish this episode and then just cancel everything else you have going on today and watch both, especially Valley Uprising. It's simply an incredible kind of documentary look at the start, the dawn, if you will, of big wall climbing in Yosemite. Amazing movie, super pumped. And the interesting thing about this new one, again, it's called The Alpinist. It's the telling of kind of the life and high alpine pursuits of a guy named Marc-Andre Leclerc. And I actually met Mark. He was my brother's roommate for a couple months in Squamish, maybe not even a couple months. I'd have to check, but I was in Squamish several years ago. It would have been, uh, 2017, October of 2017. Cause it would have been around his birthday. I remember he was going, he soloed something like alpha or something in the Tantalus range for his birthday. Uh, and he, and he did it like in one push just came up and was back for dinner. Wow. Uh, the guy was, uh, was an absolute kind of freak of nature. And, and this very humble, sweet guy, uh, sadly, you know, uh, he passed away in March of 2018 while climbing in Alaska. And, you know, I, I didn't know him that well. I'd, like I said, I met him once, we traded a few words and then my brother kind of filled me in on the trajectory that he was on. And it was a world-class trajectory as far as alpinism goes, but he didn't have, he didn't have the, the kind of like, push to make himself the center of everything. He didn't have the hubris, if you will, to try and capitalize on everything. A lot of times he just went out and did amazing things and then it kind of just whispered through the climbing community. I'm really excited for this documentary. He was a remarkable guy and a very sweet presence from all kind of reports. So I highly recommend checking out the trailer and the movie will be in theaters September 10th. which I'm, uh, I'm quite excited about. Hopefully they do a digital release, not, not too long after, depending on what the theater scenario is. Uh, but yeah, so that's the Alpinist and it, and it takes a look at the, um, kind of the, the incredible climbing acumen of, uh, Mark Andre Leclerc. |
| James | Well, yeah, it looks, uh, it looks incredible. I mean, I, I, I watched that as well. And I think, you know, anytime there's a good climbing or, or diving film, you know, there's just such a dearth of those around that, that whenever they come along, I get excited for it. And I remember you mentioning, uh, Marc Andre a couple of years ago after he died and it was like, wow, you know, so yeah, really sad. Looking forward to that. |
| Jason Heaton | Yeah. Yeah. I think it's going to be a good one. And, uh, and definitely one to see. So, uh, show him some love, you know, we don't say this often, but in, in especially, you know, do the like and subscribe and the rest of it, try and get this trailer out there. I think it's going to be something special. And for those of you who have seen Valley uprising in the Dawn wall, I think it's easy to say that it'll be really well-made. I mean, the track record's incredible. uh, from these folks so far. And it's, it's also just exciting to see that these stories are making it to big budget, you know, really highly produced storytelling. Yeah. Uh, so I think that's an exciting one. And, uh, in my mind, a great way to kind of, uh, put a bow on the show and, uh, and wrap it up. So as always, thank you so much for listening. You can subscribe to the show notes via notes.thegraynado.com, or you can check the feed for more details and links. You can also follow us on Instagram at Jason Heaton and at J.E. Stacey, or you can simply follow the show at The Graynado. If you have any questions for us, please write thegraynado at gmail.com and please keep sending in those voice memos. Finally, if you're enjoying the show, we'd love it if you would subscribe and review wherever you find your podcasts. Music throughout is Siesta by Jazzar via the free music archive. |
| James | And we leave you with this quote from Kurt Vonnegut, who said, We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. |