The Grey Nato - Episode 11 - "What's Old Is New (again)"

Published on Tue, 21 Jun 2016 09:03:47 -0400

Synopsis

Jason and James discuss the trend of watchmakers releasing "new vintage" watches that harken back to designs from the 1950s and 1960s. They analyze how different brands like TAG Heuer, Tudor, Oris, Eterna, and others have approached this trend, some reissuing faithful recreations while others put a modern twist on vintage aesthetics. They explore what makes these new vintage watches successful or miss the mark, touching on elements like case size, lume color, and overall design philosophy. The discussion also covers topics like bronze cases, brand histories, and the collectors' perspective on new vintage watches vs. original vintage pieces.

Transcript

Speaker
James Stacey Welcome to episode 11 of the Graynado, a loose discussion of travel, adventure, diving, gear, and most certainly watches. I'm James Stacy.
Jason Heaton And I'm Jason Heaton. During today's episode, we're talking about quote-unquote new vintage watches. Those watches that brands are coming out with that sort of harken back to perhaps a vintage model of their own, or just trying to capture sort of the glory of the great days of the 50s and 60s when, you know, there were just a lot of great watches around. So, the watches we're kind of talking about here are those from, you know, Longines and Oris, Tudor, Eterna, Seiko, just a bunch of others. And it's kind of been a trend, I don't know, James, maybe, seems like it kind of, it's kind of in peak form now, but I would say we kind of saw this starting about, I don't know, three years ago, four years ago, would you say?
James Stacey I would say closer to 10. Oh, really? Because 2007 was the Longines Heritage Diver. Yeah, yeah. And I think in, we'll say 2004 to 2005, so if you look to even smaller brands, like if you think of Ocean 7 and some of those early internet micro brands, a lot of them were producing watches that faded the line between a referential model and homage. And, and, and I mean, when it's in a brand, then it's no longer an homage, right? Like if, like a forest makes the 65, that's a legit watch, but if somebody else made a watch that looked just like a 65, yeah, then it's an homage. So, I mean, with, with some of these smaller brands, I don't think you can necessarily call them new vintage, but that's largely it's what, what they were cornering, what they were looking for in the market was, you know, these watches, um, that weren't around anymore in many cases, like, you know, a couple brands were making homages to the Ploprof before Omega released it. Right. So, I mean, there's kind of situations like that. And then you have brands like, I think it's called Persista. Oh, yeah. And they make all sorts of references to models that just don't exist anymore. So, I mean, I think you could trace it back to the early 2000s, this kind of fascination with a modern construction and generally speaking, a modern brand new movement. but overall a style that's usually referential to a pre-quartz era and sometimes just specifically to the sweet spot of a certain brand, right? So, I mean, if you and I were going to set out to make a Rolex homage today, you would look after old Daytonas and old subs first. And I think that's, obviously that's not the direction Rolex has gone, but plenty of other brands have used their back catalog to inspire the new stuff. And I mean, I think kind of the glowing first point to touch on would be Tag Heuer.
Jason Heaton Yeah, they've got such a deep catalog from which to choose. I think it's a brand that has taken full advantage of, in recent years, of the really great stuff that they were making in the 60s and in the 70s.
James Stacey And I think they've done it really, really well. Obviously, right now, a lot of Tag Heuer fans are focused on the Octavia Challenge. where they had, I think it was like 16 designs. I admittedly, I didn't follow it that closely, but one of my favorite ones did get selected. I just saved the photo into Dropbox. And then when I saw it pop up in Twitter, I was like, Oh, Hey, that's it. That's I like that one. That's cool. Um, but I mean that final watch will be outside of the price range of what I normally buy. And it's not like they're going to drop in value. Yeah. That's not going to be the kind of watch that's a deal. Secondhand people are going to go pretty nuts for those Octavias when they come out.
Jason Heaton And of course the big one was, was the Monza at, uh, at Baselworld this year.
James Stacey That mons is something else entirely. What did you think of it when you saw it? I think we talked about it during the Baselworld Mega episode, but maybe we didn't.
Jason Heaton Yeah, I mean, we probably touched on it because I think almost everybody who was at Baselworld was kind of, I wouldn't say floored by it, but people, it was one of the favorites on most people's lists and mine included. I did, I think I posted a photo sometime during the show and somebody kind of nitpicked that they, you know, they kind of missed the case shape exactly, or the sub-dial. But I think, you know, the point of that watch, and I think something we will touch on today, that is important to note about these, quote-unquote, new vintage watches, is that it's not always about recreating the watch itself. And the Manza is a perfect example. It isn't an exact replica of the old one, and I think that's a good thing. You know, the sub-dials are arranged slightly differently. I think there's You know, there's a definite sort of tweak to the shape of the case, but it works. You look at it and you think, wow, this is a really cool watch from the sixties. And it's, it's pure, you know, it's pure Heuer sports watch. And, and I think that that's what they're going for.
James Stacey Yeah. I think, I think what it successfully does is imagine if there'd been a second generation of the Monza that kind of lost its asymmetry. Cause they had this kind of strangely asymmetrical dial and the case was very basic and that like tag doesn't do a basic case anymore. on any of their watches. Like if you pick up even like something basic like an Aquaracer, they're kind of faceted and they have shape, like additional shape to them. And that original kind of tonneau case would feel almost hopelessly referential to the original. So I like that they kind of, they went a different direction. It has a bezel. I love that it's titanium. I think it's really, and it's really killer on wrist and it's not a fortune. I mean, it's not a cheap watch by any stretch, but I think it's a little under six grand. And I really liked it. I like it in the same way that I like those kind of old school Monacos. And I'm not a huge fan of a lot of their more modern aesthetic. Certainly I've had Aquaracers and I enjoy the current Aquaracer lineup. And the nice thing with an Aquaracer is TAG really likes to give buyers a lot of choice. Yeah. So there'll be like 20 SKUs, which as a journalist is a real pain, because that means I have to take pictures of 20 watches if I want to cover it. Whereas with the Monza, there's one skew, which is awesome. I shoot 40 pictures of the one watch, I get coverage, and then I know what I'm writing about. But with the Aquaracer, it's a different thing. But when you see them all in a case, and you're a consumer, and whether you're on a cruise ship, or you're at the mall, or just whatever it is, like tags everywhere. Yeah. And they give you a lot of choice in color and size, and obviously you get quartz and automatic, and they're good movements. And the Aquaracer that I had was really nicely made, But certainly I think if I was going to put my own money back into a modern Tag Heuer now, especially because of the, um, there's a lot of heat on their vintage stuff. Yeah. Uh, you know, old Octavias are hot. Even some of the less popular older models are starting to spike like, uh, Camaros. And, um, what's the one that starts with a J?
Jason Heaton Oh, is it the Yarama or something like that? Yeah. Something like that.
James Stacey Yeah. It's, I think it's a really cool watch and I've, I've sought them out a couple of times and they're really hard to find. I think it's maybe what's constricting that market, not so much that people would want to buy them. But like if you wanted to step out and buy an Octavia now or, God forbid, an early Carrera, that's a big money proposition. So there's going to be a lot of people who want the aesthetic but don't specifically care if it's vintage or not. And like I think a lot of people, maybe even more people than do care that it is vintage. want the aesthetic and I think that's what Tudor's made a huge name on in the last few years and certainly Oris has really started to find their stride with it comes to offering an aesthetic that still encapsulates all of their ability to build a modern watch. Yeah. Not everybody is successful at this methodology but it is definitely I would say one of the biggest trends in the watch industry and certainly I would say the biggest trend in sport watches.
Jason Heaton Well I think I don't know if this is a conscious decision, you know, certainly not a collectively conscious decision on the part of all these brands that are doing this, but I think this new vintage trend is, it's almost like a reaction to the challenges that the traditional watchmakers are facing these days with people moving to smart watches or not wearing watches at all, referencing devices for the time, et cetera, et cetera. I think they're, by hearkening back to their golden days, um, they're sort of reminding people of what makes a great, you know, traditional, uh, mechanical watch what it is. And, and so you're sort of saying, okay, you know, forget about your, your goofy Apple watch. Um, this, this piece is, is pure 1960s or 1970s or whatever. And, um, it's almost easier now, you know, given the strength of this trend to look at or to list watches that are, not new vintage than it is the new vintage style ones. Because, you know, try to go through a brand's portfolio and find a watch that doesn't necessarily reference something old. I think of Omega, for instance. If you look at the watches that they've released, I mean, they're not all, you know, trying super hard to be vintage-y. But look at, you know, the Ploprof, the, you know, the Seamaster 300, You know, the entire Speedmaster line, what was the dress watch they came out with last year? Tresor. Tresor. You know, all of these references to older watches, and I think that's the strength of these old, especially Swiss companies. The Japanese are doing it to a certain degree too, but they all kind of are referencing what made the brands great. You know, certain styling cues, a fluted bezel, or a hobnail dial, or a certain shape of hands, or something like that.
James Stacey Yeah, I think I think Omega is in a really special position because they've been big for a long time. Like they've been a big brand for a very long time. And they have a wonderful back catalog of eccentric designs. Yes. Yeah. And I would say the main keystone to the success of new vintage is to have a little bit of eccentricity, something that's a little strange. I would agree. Whether it's Something as simple as making a direct reference to color can be really good. But imagine if Omega had redone the Mark II. This would have been, what, two years ago? Yeah. And didn't do the race dial.
Jason Heaton Oh, right, right.
James Stacey The race dial is the first thing I think of with the Mark II. If you're going to buy an Omega Speedmaster chronograph that doesn't have the latest generation technology, and you don't want the first Omega in space, which has the 861,
Unknown Yeah.
James Stacey Then you buy the Mark II and I'd be surprised, like I'm sure that the Black Dial does outsell the Race Dial, but maybe not among, I hope not among enthusiasts because that Race Dial is so, so cool. That's, that would be, if I was going out to buy an Omega, if I wanted another Omega, that would be so high on my list. And certainly an original Mark II with the Race Dial is one of my absolute favorites from the brand, period. I got to see one. you and I got to go to a trip in Houston to NASA for an anniversary for Apollo 13. And while we were there, Omega pretty much had one of everything, including this original Mark II race dial. I have pictures of my phone on it, and I look at them with some frequency. I really think that's a great watch, and they're starting to pop in value, so I'm sure I've lost my chance at a A sweet price on a Mark II with a race dial. And certainly if you want a real Speedmaster with a racing dial, whether it be the older one or the Japan LE, those are a fortune now. That's my absolute favorite normal case Speedmaster is the race dial. Yeah. But they've become... I've followed those for a few years and I should have... Like I said, with all of these sorts of things, I should have bet the bullet years ago.
Jason Heaton Because those are mega and there's not many of them and they're hard to find and they're often faked I think going back to your point that you just made a little earlier about Success largely hinging on sort of a quirky element. I I would tend to agree there I mean, I think the ones that maybe it's not the ones that succeed necessarily but it's the ones that that resonate at least with me and it sounds like with you as well are these kind of The oddballs. I was thinking a few episodes ago, we talked about a watch that I had in for review that the Glycine Airman number one, which I mean, it is so close to to the original watch that it's almost not new vintage. Yeah, it's almost not new vintage. And, you know, I love the watch when I had it. But by the end of it, I was like, I wasn't sure if I would own that or if I would just go out and buy the vintage piece. You know, I don't know. It was just it was almost too close. You know, there just was nothing slightly tweaked about it, whereas on the other side of the coin, if you look at a brand like, Tudor's an obvious brand to talk about in this whole discussion because a lot of what they're doing now, they even have heritage in a certain family of watches that they make, but they're putting a twist. They're not doing exact replicas. I mean, that is more of what something like a Mark II or MK II, however you pronounce it, the small sort of one-man shop out of Pennsylvania that we both happen to like, but he's doing more of the faithful, you know, recreation of vintage pieces that are not made anymore. You know, he made a watch called the Kingston a few years ago that was kind of a direct reference to an old Rolex Submariner from the early 60s, and then when the Black Bay came out, I think it was shortly after that, it looked, you know, they looked very similar, but Tudor had, I think, smartly altered it with you know, the snowflake hands, the bigger case, you know, plenty of, of differences, but yet it feels kind of like a vintage watch, but it's, it feels like a modern watch at the same time.
James Stacey It could just be that, that the era with which brands are accessing the designs had more eccentric designs than we see now. Yeah. Like the sixties and seventies had some pretty wild designs, race dials, you know, look at the Auris 65, the 40 millimeter with those, you know, luminous relief markers. Yeah. And so just some really great stuff. You know, this week, I've got an Eterna Super Contiki 1973 limited edition, which is a watch that like, I kind of I didn't mind from the photos, and then I got it in hand. It's an entirely different beast in person. It's awesome. Yeah. And it's really strange, which I think is what like, I find it endearing. And that's a direct, you know, that's a direct reference to a past design. I don't actually know how big the original design is. The, the LE, the new one is 44 millimeters. So it must be upsized. But it feels a bit like it has kind of the strangeness that I would associate with Doxa. Yes. Where you're not, you're not gonna, it doesn't slide anywhere close to being a sub, which kind of sits right in the middle of being a dive watch. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, there's some, just some fantastic legacies for these companies. And then you kind of have like a gamut where you have companies that are going to make a direct, like a photocopy. Yes. Like, uh, like Glycine and the Airman number one. Or the Longines. Yeah, sure. The Longines Legend Diver. Yeah, exactly. And then you certainly have like Omega will make little tweaks, like with their first Omega in space. It's a little bigger, but otherwise like it's a very faithful suggestion of the original. And then with Tudor, they simply kind of said like, well, we're not going to make a watch we made before, but we are going to respect all of the ways that we got to those designs. And that's what the output is with something like a Black Bay or a Ranger. And I think it's a fantastic way of going about it because they're vintage inspired, but I don't think they detract in any way from the original watches. That's not to say that I'd be surprised if someone who has an original Monza would buy a new one. That seems about right. Yeah. The way that Tudors approached the kind of, and I think they were pretty early to the game, but I think the way that Tudor approached it was fairly successful. But yeah, if you look back even as far as 07 for the Longines Legend Diver, it was a really popular watch and one that Longines kind of still references and they still sell the date version. And then, you know, there's all sorts of brands that have since gotten on that train. You look at, you know, you have some experience with Zodiac, And then obviously there's brands that haven't so much gotten on that train, but they've been on the train for so long that they're now part of it. They're part of this trend. So something like JLC with the Reverso. Yeah. All they had to do was basically say, oh, what do you know? It's been 80 years. Right. I guess we'll just kind of look at what we made 80 years ago. And, you know, they make the tribute to 1931. and it's stunning, it's perfect, it definitely feels like an old vintage watch in person, but all reversos kind of have that spirit. Right. And you know, there's lots, Blancpain's done the tribute to Aqualung, which I think you have some experience with, I don't.
Jason Heaton Yeah, I really loved that watch wearing it, but I would almost put it in sort of a, well, I shouldn't say it's a miss, it's a cool watch. I do feel like it's too big. I feel like that's its fatal flaw with most of the current Blancpain diving watches. I think that particular, the whole Fifty Fathoms family now, if they just shrunk it by like two millimeters, I think it would just be that much more perfect.
James Stacey Yeah, a bathyscaphe at like 40 or 41 would be bonkers.
Jason Heaton But what I was going to say was I almost feel like, you know, one brand that you can't not add to this list, ironically enough, is Rolex. I mean, their pace of change to their watches is so glacial that you could argue that they're actually just making the same watch they made, you know, minus the technology, you know, jumps in materials and movement and things like that. I mean, a Submariner, even now, even a modern one, is so much of an homage or just a evolution, slight evolution, from one made in like 1973, you know?
James Stacey Yep. Yeah. I mean, I've, I've definitely made the comparison before and I know I won't stop making it, but they are very much like the Porsche 911. Yeah. You look at a 911. Now you park it next to an old one, to an original and it's bigger, but it's the same shape. Yeah. Even a lay person would say like, well, that car's obviously one's newer and one's older, but it's, this could be the same car. Yeah. And I think that's exactly what we have in the sub and I would, I would not call it new vintage. But I would definitely think that they would be just like I don't necessarily class the Reverso like most of the Reverso family in new vintage. I think the tribute to 1931 is kind of direct thing and their tribute Memovox is kind of a direct which falls into the new vintage. But otherwise you just have a line that's existed outside of the trendiness of being vintage inspired. Yeah. Rolex has not found a reason to stop making the Sub in its current form. They've made different expressions, green, blue, et cetera, but no specific reason to shut that down where lots of their competitors, the watches that were the original competitor to the Sub aren't around anymore. You can't buy... There's not a direct through line for Omega between the original SM300 and say the new one.
Unknown Yeah.
James Stacey And even if it did, they don't share nearly as much in common aesthetically as an old sub to a new one.
Jason Heaton Right. And even the Zodiac, the Super Seawolf versions that they've come out with, they're cool. They're awesome reissues. But, you know, Zodiac, it isn't the same company. I mean, you're right. It isn't a direct lineage.
James Stacey Yeah. In that case, it's a whole different thing where, yeah, it's an entirely different company. Yeah. But boy, they did a great job, you know? No doubt. And there's lots of companies that died during the quartz. Yeah. And came back and, uh, and are now producing watches again under, you know, obviously new management and new families and stuff, which, which I think is, is a, is a plus because it means that there's theoretically more people getting into watches and, uh, and, and things like that. And then, then you have brands on the exact opposite side, brands that feel like they never really change at all, even less so than Rolex with a brand like Patek Philippe. Um, would you consider the Calatrava Pilot travel timer, you know the one I mean. Yeah. Their pilots watch from two years ago. Would you consider that new vintage or just kind of, because like all Pateks basically feel old to me. Right.
Jason Heaton That one actually, the funny thing is it felt so fresh, you know, when it came out, it was like it was so un-Patek and yet it was like the one that they were saying, you know, this is, this is a reference to something we've had in our museum and we used to make pilots watches. But, I don't, yeah, good question. I don't know if I would consider that a new vintage. It's certainly trying to capitalize on that spirit. But from the examples I saw, you know, that they were trying to kind of make a connection to in their past, I actually didn't really see a really strong similarity. It kind of looked like a lot of different old Pilot's watches, but it is, I love that watch. I think it was just a really cool watch regardless.
James Stacey Yeah, I think you and I are in the relatively small and encircled camp of people who do really dig that watch, and it could be that maybe neither you or I are like hardcore Patek collectors. Yeah, yeah. But I see any Patek and I can't necessarily tell you how old it is. Yeah. The ones that have come out since I got into watches, I'll remember. I can tell you 5270, things like that. But with all of the... With a lot of the Calatravas, I'm always surprised when somebody buys a new one because the old ones are just as beautiful and sometimes cheaper. Yeah. And I guess it just comes down to maybe guys aren't buying one. I don't actually understand the world of Patek buyers that well. It is just an entirely different echelon. And I really like that Calatrava, the Pilot, but it definitely doesn't feel like a Patek. And, you know, there were a lot of comparisons to Zenith with the Type 20, which would be I think as much new vintage as the Patek. Yeah. Because Zenith, of course, is a company that I think for many years was characterized by being fairly wild, futuristic. You know, think of the Defy series. Oh, yeah. And then new people came in and they said, no, no, what we're going to make is like, look back at our tricolor dial and A386s. And we're going to make things like that. And suddenly they had 38 millimeter chronographs. They had striking tenths. good price points. I think a lot of Zenith's line is a little bit too big, but I think that's also outside of what we're talking about today. I think that they're an interesting example in that they have this beautiful lineage of dress watches and sport watches, and they've made quite a few plays in all sorts of different directions. Everything from the Christophe Colomb watches, the really crazy high-end ones, to things like you know, more El Primeros, more and more El Primeros every year. There's more options for anyone. Yeah. And then you then you have options like their pilot watch, the type 20, which is a fairly eccentric design to my eyes. You know, it's not a lot of case. It's a lot of dial. Obviously, everything's kind of oversized and people really love them. Like, it's not my aesthetic. Yeah. But they're beautifully made. And and like often they're limited edition. There was a very cool bronze one. And people really dig stuff like that. And I think that brings me to my next point, which is sometimes that it goes deeper than just say a dial design or a reference to a dial design. Because with, you know, let's look at like Oris or Tudor with the Black Bay Bronze. Bronze seems to be a thing that I think falls under the overall kind of umbrella of of uh vintage kind of new vintage designs like would you agree or you think that's it's a different thing entirely? Bronze just feels old school to me.
Jason Heaton Yeah I mean we could probably do a whole show just about bronze given the popularity these days but um it's funny because I uh you know just I could be I could be completely wrong here but I I almost feel like I don't think watches were made of bronze you know I mean yeah this isn't a reference to a material that watches were made of it's kind of trying to capitalize on in older material and sort of conjuring up this nautical vibe, even though with Zenith, in the Zenith case, it's on a pilot's watch. But it's that old instrument sort of feel to it. So yeah, it kind of, you know, we're kind of circling around this topic of what works, what doesn't work with this new vintage. And there really isn't a magic formula. I think you have brands that are recreating, you know, almost carbon copies of originals. There are ones that are tweaking, you know, using styling cues or elements from their past and kind of putting together a little hybrid. And then you've got things like bronze, which is sort of a more... It's strange. Esoteric sort of like, it brings to mind vintage, but it has nothing to do with any watch that really anybody ever made. Right. So what kind of doesn't work? You know, a lot of people really don't like sort of faux vintage lume, you know, that really deep sort of goldy
James Stacey I'm in that camp, yeah. The brown, the kind of pre-faded lume for me is 99% failure. The one example that comes to mind where it felt perfect was the Radiomir 1940 Accio, I don't know, the one that they showed off this year, the 42 millimeter with the three day movement. It's the sort of Panerai that I would totally wear except that it's 10 grand. That one is a, you know, kind of a white dial and it uses a tan loom for the markers in the hands, which is nicely matched by the strap. And I think that's quite successful. And then I think like Bramont had the new Alt-1 ZT with the kind of vintage vibe from the P-51. Yeah. And that one, I was kind of like on the fence in the photos. I thought it looked good. And then I saw it at Basel and it looked great. There's a really successful kind of re-spin of the P-51 aesthetic into the ZT. Yeah. But other than that, I genuinely, generally I don't care for the faux tan lume. I just like a regular lume. And I think it's because a little bit of me is worried that it won't perform very well. So it's now, it's, it's, it's the form over function. And, you know, like you'd brought up in the last episode, that kind of sickly green color is a little sickly now that you mentioned it, I'm seeing it all the time. despite being a little sickly, that C3 Super LumiNova glows so well, like with the few exception of something like Chromalight, it just does such a great job that I worry that with the brown lume that it's not going to work out. So now we've, you've kind of faux aged my lume so that the watch looks older, but now it's also lives less lume. It just, the like really nerdy side of my preference for watches doesn't, doesn't like it. I just worried that it would be like, I got this panerai with giant markers, it doesn't go very well.
Jason Heaton Well, I don't have the same opinion about faux lume, the same sort of negative reaction. I know what you're saying. I think it works in some cases and in others it doesn't. I think, to me, rather than think about it as faux aged lume, and I've said this to other people too, is just think about it as a different paint color, just a different color palette that they're using for the dial that kind of plays up the kind of works well with sort of the vintage aesthetic of the entire watch, rather than trying to think that, oh, they're trying to sneak in some sort of aged lume. If it doesn't work, that's a whole different matter, you know, if it isn't bright. But on the other hand, when I think back to the watches we talked about already today, the Black Bay, the Oris, the Eterna, the Glycine, you know, the Legend Diver, if I recall correctly, none of those actually do have that really overly faux-aged luminescence. And those work really well. So you don't have to have that to make one of these new vintage watches successful.
James Stacey Yeah, and the TAG Monza has slightly faux-aged lume. It's kind of a tannish color. Not as extensive as some others, but it doesn't bother me at all. So, I mean, this isn't a position that I came to rationally. It's just a gut reaction that I have with some watches. Yeah. Where it feels like they're leaning too hard on the crutch of we need this to be old school. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, you look at something like the Aorus, the 65 uses standard lume and you get this amazing lume expression and they kind of use the colour to their benefit with that design. And yeah, I mean, lots of great examples. And I mean, I think it comes down to there not being any real rules. But in the way I see it is, you know, if it feels like a legitimate nod to something from their past, and I mean, that's a moving target. But if it feels genuine, then I think it can be very successful. Like, I think that's how that Tag Heuer contest with the Octavia worked, is I think somebody at Tag quite wisely said, like, guys, we can't make all the Octavias. Yeah. Like we've got a lot of buzz in the secondary market. These are very popular watches and we should do something to refer to that popularity, but we have 16 amazing designs or 14 or whatever it was, and we can't make all of them. And I mean, that's a remarkable constraint because Tag could have made all of them or they could have made eight of them or six and they're only going to make one. Yeah. And I think that was single-handedly, I think that was the ideal decision for the new Octavia was for them to say, like, there's a lot of Octavias out there and people love the old ones and we'll live with that. Yeah. We're going to make this one to kind of as a tribute to how well things have been going with the Octavia and how much we like the design. And we're going to make sure that the the people who would likely be the ones to pull their wallet out will have a chance to say which one it is. Yeah. Yeah. I think more more companies could learn from the social element of what Tagg succeeded with in that, you know, new vintage project. rather than finding out that they have you know a watch that's suddenly hugely popular on the secondary market at auction or or you know trading between collectors and simply making a a new version right which i think is what some brands are doing yeah yeah i mean i think the by and large it's it's kind of a winning formula it's kind of hard to screw this up if you're if you're not overdoing it and if you're
Jason Heaton You're starting with a good design to begin with. I think one that may have been a bit of a miss, you know, you and I have talked about this before, was that giant Heritage Pilot's Watch that IWC came out with at SIHH, which was a very limited series. So maybe it's kind of a moot point, but what was it, 55 millimeters or something, the big one?
James Stacey They showed two at SIHH this year, and one was like 55, and I want to say the other one was 50. or 48 or something.
Unknown Maybe 48 and 55.
James Stacey Admittedly, like my brain shuts off a little bit. I really liked their 40 and 42 millimeter pilots watches. Yeah. And the new chronographs. I thought those were great. And that's all my brain was seeing. Yeah. They handed us these watches and I'm looking at them and like, OK, beautifully made. It's an IWC beautifully made. Who is wearing these? Yeah. You know, it felt like those. And I'm sure that they sold. I'm sure they only made so many and I'm sure they all sold. So from a business standpoint, nobody's taking my advice. Sure, sure. But from, you know, just purely my singular opinion, it's like when you see those, those guys that bought Hummers.
Unknown Yeah.
James Stacey And then, and then had them like done up to be bigger. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You know, cause I'll see, you see a guy that's like five, 530 pounds with a 46 millimeter big pilot. Yeah. And it's like, it looks like you got dad's watch, right? Which is fine. I mean, that's a really nice watch, but it's just it's a lot of watch for your wrist and I can't imagine at 48 or 55 how that's actually worn around and you know, it has kind of a double wrap strap. Right. That's referential to the way that it was worn by pilots.
Jason Heaton Yeah, it feels like the kind of watch that you'd buy and you really wouldn't wear. I mean, it feels like something you would kind of pull out at a dinner party at your house and say, oh, you know, look at this special edition. It's almost like pulling out like a marine chronometer or something that was on a ship somewhere, you know?
James Stacey You remember those Bell and Ross watches that all had gauge?
Jason Heaton Yeah.
James Stacey Various airplane telemetry gauges on them. Yes.
Unknown Yeah.
James Stacey But they were all technically watches. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, like I'm assuming people like those all sold, those were popular with, with like Bell and Ross, hardcore Bell and Ross types. Yeah. But the, um, I like a Bell and Ross as much as anyone and I think that kind of square aesthetic is cool and it's noticeable. I can see a Bell and Ross from across the room and know what it is. Yeah. But with those ones, they weren't even necessarily telling time very well. Yeah. But people bought them and I think that's what it comes down to. It's a collector thing and it's like this year Longines had a special pocket watch and they'll make 50 or 100 or whatever it is. and X amount had already sold because people collect things like that. And it's not, it's, it eventually moves beyond like the watch as a daily wearing item. Yeah. And now it's just a, just a collector's item. And for me, like, I think people who listen to the podcast would know that we like watches that are worn and designed to be on people's wrists when they live their lives. And so, you know, some of these things that are purposefully vintage and collector's items, just buy the original if you can. Yeah.
Jason Heaton Then it makes more sense. You know, the one thing, I got to say this, one thing about that IWC, that Big Pilot's Watch, I wish I could remember the name of it, the Heritage Pilot Watch, I think they called it Big Pilot Heritage, isn't so much the size, it is the fact that they use a small seconds on the dial of that, or a small seconds movement, because If you're truly going for authenticity, the whole point of that watch, I think, when it was created was, in the original specification, was a center sweep seconds hand. And this actually, unlike the Big Pilot itself, which I think has a sweep seconds hand, a center sweep seconds hand, this one does not. And so it immediately veers away from the original design, despite being the exact correct size. And that was the most bothersome thing to me about that watch.
James Stacey Yeah, the big pilots like the 5009 series have a center seconds. Yeah. And now now a power reserve. Yeah. And then the standard pilots automatic center seconds. But yeah, these watches are called the, as you said, the big pilots heritage 55 and the big pilots heritage 48. And both have sub seconds. Yeah, that what I will say is to me, really beautiful watches, but it feels like you became a smaller person when you pick them up. Yeah. They're beautifully made. It's like my thing with Breitling, with some of the really big Breitlings. They're beautifully made, but I can't ever even imagine putting them on my wrist. Yeah. And I love the aesthetic of the Big Pilot in all of its sizes. I think that the actual dial design is beautiful, but I have to agree that that watch would have made a lot more sense with a big center seconds hand. Yeah. But yeah, so we're not the final word in any of this. Please, if you're listening to this and you've got a distinct opinion or a favorite new vintage or one that you tried and just couldn't find the love, let us know. TheGreyNado at gmail.com. We're at TheGreyNado on Instagram. Please drop us a line. Let us know. We want to know what the audience is thinking. Did you agree with some of our assessments? If not, you know, throw some shade. Let us know what you think. And we'll be back with a new business Q&A. Final notes.
Jason Heaton And welcome back. Let's get right into our new business. This is the portion of the show where James and I talk about kind of what's new in our worlds, new acquisitions, new trips, new plans, new adventures, all of that good stuff. Well, actually, James, I'm recording this episode from a hotel room. This is, I think, the first time we've not recorded from our home studios. I'm down here in South Florida, where I'm on a short trip to Everglades National Park for about a three-day trip. I'm actually doing this trip, it's actually being underwritten by Jaeger LeCoultre, who is the primary funder of UNESCO's Marine World Heritage Program. And we're down here to kind of, I'm here with a videographer from Gear Patrol, and we're down here sort of shadowing some National Park researchers. This morning we were out on Florida Bay in some flats boats with a couple of guys that were measuring water depths and taking GPS readings to map new waterway routes and to update their, they're coming out with a new app for mapping the Everglades waterways. And then tomorrow morning we're going to go out with some researchers, I think some interns, that are checking on some trap lines that they've set for an invasive species here that's called the Argentine tegu lizard. So it's kind of an interesting, very science-y project. Having a lot of fun. The weather's kind of iffy. There's a tropical storm blowing in here. But it's kind of different from the usual sort of watch-related trip. I am wearing, as we speak here, a Geophysic True Second in the stainless steel. So cool. Yeah, which is a really cool watch. And I learned today that it was actually a watch worn by Jon Hamm, the actor, in a movie that's about to come out. I guess it was sent over from L.A. Not from John himself, but Yager LeCoultre requisitioned it, got it back from the movie. And so now I'm wearing it here while I'm chasing lizards around a national park. Other than that, I pretty much got off one plane and got on the other one to come down here on Sunday. I was in Bonaire last week. I talked about this trip a couple of weeks ago in our previous episode. Bonaire, if you don't remember, is one of the ABC islands in the southern Caribbean and I was down there for a week working on a project for Eterna, the watch company, Swiss watch company. They released a couple of new super contiki chronographs at Basel in March and a couple of new women's dive watches and when I spoke to them at Basel they told me that they needed some cool, well not cool, they needed some underwater photographs of of the new watches, dive-related photos that they could use in some of their campaigns. So they sent some watches and we took them down to Bonaire and I spent a week diving with all of them and came away with some pretty good impressions. Some pretty cool watches. That's kind of what's new in my world. My Breitling B55 piece finally ran on on Hodinkee last week, and as I predicted, it did meet with some resistance from the usual commenters who just don't care for the watch much.
James Stacey But you know, that's what it's all about. Never read the comments.
Jason Heaton Yeah, exactly. But that's what's happening over here. How about you, James? You're back from a trip as well.
James Stacey Yeah, I was down in L.A. For a week for a wedding and to hang out for a bit and I was reviewing a car. So I had a Well, I knew going down that I'd be getting an infinity q70 Mm-hmm, which is you know, they're larger sedan What I didn't know is that it would be a u.s. Only spec which is the 5.6 liter v8 Wow, so I was expecting 330 horse 3.6 liter twin-turbo Which is the you know the model available in Canada? And instead, I got to where the pickup for the car was, and it was boldly emblazoned in dark graphite shadow, beautiful color, gray, basically dark silver, with a 5.6 liter. So obviously, that was very much to my liking. And I had a blast. For a long time, I'd wanted to get a chance to kick around in LA. I'd been there on a watch trip previously, but didn't have a car. And I don't mind LA. It's fine. I like it. Nice weather. But the main goal for me was to get a chance to drive some of the canyons up around Malibu. And this car did not disappoint. It was on 20-inch wheels, which is definitely overkill. If you're getting a Q70, the V6 or the V8, just keep the 18-inch wheels. I think it would ride a little better. I found that they definitely have tuned the suspension to be Firm, which isn't necessarily what you want when you option a 20-inch wheel. Yeah. So in regular driving, you could feel a lot of the road. In sporty driving, it didn't matter. The car felt really, really capable. It's a 420 horsepower V8, naturally aspirated, 417 pound-feet of torque. It's a seven-speed automatic. And the automatic was really nice around town and then surprisingly competent. in the canyons. I wouldn't say that it necessarily could keep up with something like the ZF, the dual clutch that's in a lot of cars now. But I didn't feel that it was letting me down at any point. And it had the kind of manual shift mode, which is something that I normally ignore. But I noticed on the paperwork that came for the car that the manual shift mode included an automatic downshift rev match. Oh, nice. So it's kind of like, you know, heel and toeing giving, you know, that big V8 a boot. Right. So you'd come in, you know, hard on the brakes into a corner and bring it down a gear and it would just blip the throttle quite aggressively. Yeah. And what's boldly childish and maybe even a little obnoxious in, say, moving traffic is frankly the best thing ever when you're, you know, six or maybe eight inches from a canyon wall on one side. Yeah. And you have that sound just bouncing around. It really added like a liveliness to what's otherwise like a very large, very comfortable kind of cruiser. It became a very competent GT car in its own right and very fast, very, very fast. Huh. Really shrugged off its size. I had a great time. I went up Topanga and then crossed Mulholland. I drove the Snake, which is something I'd wanted to do for a long time. I didn't push it because It was the guaranteed to be the spot where I was told this, I would see cops any time of the day. And sure enough, it was like about quarter past 6am and there was a cop there. And, uh, and then I continued on and came down Latigo and, uh, Latigo or Latigo, depending on who corrected me, um, takes you back to the one to PCH. And that was the best road I've ever driven on. Oh, wow. I was fully alone. Like, I think it's probably a road where if you get behind a truck, it would be terrible. Oh, yeah. But I watch, you know, Monday through Thursday, there's a guy, Matt Farah, who runs a car review site called The Smoking Tire. And he does these one take drives where he drives a car that somebody's like a fan or a reader or a listener to his podcast has offered him. So he gets to drive everything, everything you can imagine. He's basically been in at some point. And he does all of them up in the canyons in Malibu. So I recognized a lot of these roads. I'm writing that up for Nuvo Magazine now and editing the photos. So I guess if you're listening to this and you might want to read that review, check me out on Twitter is probably where I'll put the link up for that. Otherwise, there's a photo in my Instagram long before we're recording this. Other than that, you know, I'm still buying gear for Baker. I've got my rentals in place. I think I did my last. I mean, everybody says they did their last trip to the gear shop to Mac, which is like a Canadian REI. Yeah. Um, so I think I've done my last trip. I'm sure I have one more, uh, just to get the last couple of things, but, uh, it's looking good. I'm learning how to pack stuff and I'm having fun getting ready for an adventure. And I've spoken to a bunch of people who have done the hike and, and, and I think I'm in, uh, I'm in the proper phases of, of planning. So I'm, I'm pretty excited to be able to do that. And then, you know, share it on the show. I'm currently not writing it up for, uh, for anyone or any reason. So it'll just be for, uh, me and I guess any, anyone listened to the show. Nice. And yeah, beyond that, oddly enough, the timing's kind of strange because you had your trip to Bonaire with Eterna and I got an Eterna this weekend from a blog to watch and the two are not in any way connected. But yeah, so I got this Super Contiki. It's their three-hand diver. So it's the Heritage 1973 Limited Edition. And I have to say it's one that I definitely had seen pictures of and didn't care. And I got excited when I knew when it was coming because it's like a new dive watch. It's a little bit outside my comfort zone. It's 44 millimeters. I really like it. I actually haven't worn anything else since it came in, you know, four or five days ago. It's really good on a NATO. It wears pretty similarly to a Seiko 777 in that it wears a little smaller than the case size. Yeah, might suggest, you know, the loom, especially on that giant minute hand is really good. The bezels nice. The case is pretty cool. And I like I like what it refers to with the IDF and the original design and its military history. So I'm enjoying this. I'm not sure whether or not I'll write it up at any point, but certainly if I do, I'll be sure to share that link at some point in the future. And otherwise, I think that's pretty much all I've got. So we can move into Q&A if you're ready. Yeah, let's go for it. So the first question is from Thomas in London. Thomas, thanks very much for writing in. Thomas says, I read a lot of articles from the different watch blogs, generally about diving watches. For some reason, it appears that Panerai is rarely mentioned during dive watch conversations or selection. In fact, in your previous episode about diving watches, you didn't talk about Panerai at all, speaking to Jason and I there. Even if their watches are not groundbreaking in terms of technical aspects compared to brands like Rolex, it seems to me that Panerai has a strong diving history and a role to play. More than just trying to convince you, I was really interested to know if you have the same feeling and why you think journalists omit Panerai when talking about dive watches. Thomas, like I said, thanks so much for the question. The short answer is I actually don't think of Panerai as a dive watch brand anymore. Certainly they have a rich history as a dive watch manufacturer and an outfitter for divers, military divers. But in the macro view of what a dive watch is, really only their submersible line, has all of the functionality required for a dive watch. And I think today they make kind of what I would call a more of a casual dress watch and various more adventurous expressions of that design. And certainly that's not to say their watches aren't massively capable. It's just that I don't, outside of something like a sub, I don't find them especially akin to a dive watch. Jason, where do you land on that?
Jason Heaton Yeah, I pretty much agree with you there. I think part of the, it's not a problem, but I think the thing is it's kind of ironic that Panerai has sort of staked so much of their marketing on this diving history. I mean, you see so many of these grainy old photos of these diving commandos with big watches on their wrists and stuff. But the fact of the matter is the watches that those ads are referring to tend to be the old Luminor and Radiomir watches that didn't have a way of tracking elapsed time, Most of them didn't have even sub-seconds or any way of telling that the watch was even running. You know, so I think those are the Panerais, the iconic Panerais that most people think of. Of course, the Submersible line has some really strong contenders as dive watches, and I actually spent a week diving with the titanium-cased, it's the PAM 305. That was a really cool watch. It was a really cool watch. I loved that watch. It was one of those watches at the end of the trip I thought, I could wear this thing. I could own this thing rather. I mean, it had everything about it I loved. I mean, great bezel, great strap, you know, just a cool, cool watch. And in the past, they made a special edition for the Explorer Mike Horn that even had like an electronic depth gauge that was sort of sandwiched on top of the mechanical movement, which was just a really cool, quirky, collectible watch. But I guess I just think that In front of people's minds, mine included, Panerai kind of means those Luminor and Radiomir watches, which kind of places them in this non-diving territory. But certainly, the Submersible is a very capable dive watch, and I would not hesitate to wear one diving. So thanks a lot for the question, Thomas. I really appreciate it. We'll move into our second question from Brett in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, who writes, what is your experience with maintained water resistance on vintage dive watches? I'd like to expand my collection with a vintage dive watch, but I'm concerned whether water resistance lessens over time. Would it be worthwhile to have the watch tested and have any appropriate service done on it before taking it in the water? Good question. It is a good question. I've got some personal experience with this one. You know, vintage watches are cool, of course, because the diving watches tended to be more robustly built. They're just kind of better day-to-day than most other sort of more fragile dress vintage watches. But, you know, if you're going to get a vintage watch wet, you got to take the same precautions that you would with a watch that's only a few years old. And I happen to come by a 1976 Tudor Submariner, I'd say about two years ago, that I still own. It's one of the Snowflake subs that are so popular now. And I'm really pleased with the watch. But when I got it, it needed a service. It had some issues. The mainspring had broken. The loom was falling off the hands. And it just had, I think the bezel was frozen in place. And so I was going to have it serviced. And I thought, you know, if it's going to require that major a service, why not go all the way and get the thing just overhauled? And not try to stay so close to original condition to make it such a collectible piece. But to get it fully, you know, water tested, serviced, they replaced all the gaskets, you know, crown gasket, case back gasket. They swapped out the crystal and the crystal gasket as well as all the movement servicing. And, you know, I took that watch on a dive trip and, you know, I've had it to, I think, 100 feet deep, you know, several times and it's done just fine. And it's a perfectly capable watch other than the fact that the loom is old and worn out. You can't see it in the dark, but it's, you know, I would say if you're willing to kind of give up the originality that collectors really prize, and if you want to get that watch wet, go for it. Have it serviced, but just, you know, be careful. Make sure you're taking it to a competent place and get all the... get everything done, get all those gaskets swapped out. So, James, anything to add on that one?
James Stacey Not at all. I mean, if you plan to take anything underwater, it should be pressure tested at some point. um that goes for relatively new watches that goes for watches that you buy used and don't know their history if you're buying it to dive with it you shouldn't just assume that it's still going to maintain somebody might have opened it the gasket might not be seated correctly etc etc have your watches tested have your gear tested if you plan to take it underwater and if you have any questions for us please please write in TheGrenadoAtGmail.com. I look at all the questions. I read them all. I try and get back to everyone. And the really good ones, the ones that we like, that we think kind of reflect the spirit of the show, that's what Jason and I talk about. And we appreciate each and every person who's taken time to write in questions so far. And we hope that we're providing the answers that you're looking for. So with that, I think it's about time for final notes. Jason, I've got a couple here. Looks like my total cost might be around $50. So not too bad. The first one is a trailer for a Cousteau biopic called L'Odyssey. And there'll be a link to this in the show notes, of course, like everything we've been speaking about. But there's not a whole lot more to say. I mean, it's a biopic about Jacques Cousteau. As long as they stick to what really went down in his life, that's going to be a really fun movie. And the trailer looks really cool. And it's something that I know both of us are excited about. you got a chance to see. Jason, you sent me that link, didn't you?
Jason Heaton Yeah, I'm super excited about it. It looks really well done, and the lead character actually looks quite a bit like Jacques Cousteau.
James Stacey Yeah, doesn't he? Yeah. And yeah, for my next one, this is a post by Ben Newport Foster of Timepiece Chronicle, and it's called Glory Under the Seas, the DOCSIS sub 300t. And it's this really fun kind of breakdown of various elements of the Doxa Sub 300T, kind of their original professional diver's watch. And it's got some great photographs. The watches were supplied in part by Analog Shifts, so you get some really cool watches. And there's some reference to old and new. I think it's just a really good write-up. Our boy, Jason Heaton, got himself a little mention in there, which is fun.
Jason Heaton Thank you for that, Ben.
James Stacey Yeah, yeah. And yeah, that was cool. I think Ben did a nice job with it. I don't know Ben personally, but I hope he keeps writing pieces like this. I really enjoyed reading it. And you should definitely swing by the show notes and check it out if you're at all interested in old doxes, which I know Jason, I certainly are. And finally is, you know, last week, Jason suggested Gear Patrol Magazine issue two. While my issue two showed up this week, I also got my first issue, which is issue three of Avant magazine. And, uh, it's fantastic. I really, really like it. Um, you should definitely consider if you're into things like basically the sorts of stuff covered on this podcast or the sorts of things that we talk about in final notes, I think Avant would be an excellent way to go way deeper on a lot of these sorts of topics. So you have a magazine which is in part affiliated with Ben Saunders, the polar explorer, and they're basically breaking down all sorts of topics that I think fall into the guise of culture, tech, and gear, and adventure, and things like that, exploration. It's fantastic. I'm part way through this first issue that I got and I'm loving all of it. It looks like it's about 25 to 30 bucks for a year, which is two issues and then plus shipping. So I'll round up to say $50 and I think it's worth every penny so far. I'm already looking forward to the next story, whatever the next page has. And just like with Gear Patrol, I think it's fun to get these kind of longer form, beautifully produced magazines. In the mail, it's a little treat. It's a little bit, it's a little bit more I don't know, a little bit more dear, a little bit more special than just another blog post. If that kind of sounds interesting to you, by all means, check out Avant Magazine and maybe order up an issue and see what you think. Jason, what have you got for us?
Jason Heaton Yeah, I'll second your vote for Avant Magazine. I'm a big fan as well. And I think you must have Cousteau on the brain because all three of yours had some slight reference to Cousteau because in the latest issue of Avant, there's a little piece about Cousteau. Yeah, he's in that episode. Yeah, so I've got your beat on the price. All my stuff is free this week. I've got two sort of web-based things for you to check out. The first is an article that was on mensjournal.com, and it was entitled Jimmy Chin Summits New York City. And it was an article about a project that one of our gray NATO heroes, Jimmy Chin, undertook recently. He was commissioned by the art director at at I think it was the New York Times Magazine. They wanted to do a special issue about New York City. And so they commissioned Jimmy Chin, who's a world-famous rock and mountain climber and a fantastic photographer, to actually scale the top of the tower at the World Trade Center, or WTC1. And so after going through piles and piles of red tape to get permissions to go do this, He has a very short window of time to actually climb outside the top of the building, up the actual Radio Master, whatever it is these days, you know, big tower on the top. And he goes up there with one other guy, and it's the guy who is the man who does the annual inspection of that tower. And so Chin climbs up there armed with all of his cameras, and he has a very short period of time, and he's going to go and take some spectacular photos from that vantage point of New York City in the same way or in the same spirit that he would take photos on a mountain climb. And it's just a really great read. So this is kind of an article about Chin and about his experience doing this piece. And it was really, really an interesting read. So we'll put a link to that article in the show notes.
James Stacey Yeah, Jimmy Chin is awesome. If you haven't seen Meru, the documentary that he made with Conrad Anker. By all means, you should check that out. And I think we should probably consider Jimmy Chin not just a great NATO hero, but also we'll just call him the future friend of the show. Yeah, I think that's aim for the stars on that.
Jason Heaton Yes, indeed. My second item is a follow or suggested follow on Instagram, and it is at Nikonos Project. The Nikonos project is, it's really a unique, they also have a website by the way, Nikonosproject.com, I believe. The Nikonos, if you're not familiar, was kind of the original waterproof diving camera. It was a film camera that Nikon made from the 1950s up until the early 90s, or actually it might even be the late 90s. Just a legendary camera that was used by, you know, anybody who is anybody taking underwater photos for National Geographic or all the dive magazines in all the early days of underwater photography. This guy who started Nikonos Project, I think his name is Brandon Jennings, he had such a love for that camera that he started just sort of stockpiling, buying up old Nikonos cameras off of eBay and refurbishing them. And then he really wanted to see what people could do with these cameras. And so he started just lending them out for free. to anybody that would sign up for them on his website, with the only stipulation that you had to scan the resulting photos from the film that you had developed and submit them and tag him on Instagram. And, you know, most of the stuff is, it's a very kind of surf culture related Instagram feed and website. But, you know, there's also some cool underwater stuff, some diving photos, as well as some topside stuff. But, you know, the Common denominator of all of them is that they were all taken with some generation of Nikonos camera. And apparently his waiting list is up to like three years. So if you like sign up for one year, you're going to be waiting a while. But as a proud owner, I've got, I've got two Nikonos cameras. Um, and I, I just love them. They're, they're just a cool piece of, of industrial art, uh, as well as a good tool. So check that out at Nikonos project on Instagram. We'll put a link in the show notes as always. Thanks so much for listening. Hit the show notes for more details. You can follow us on Instagram. I'm at Jason Heaton, and James is at J.E. Stacey, and follow the show at The Graynado. If you have any questions for us, please write to thegraynado at gmail.com, and please subscribe and review wherever you find your podcasts, or grab the feed from thegraynado.com. Music throughout the program is Siesta by Jazzer via the Free Music Archive.
James Stacey And until next time, we leave you with this thought from Eleanor Roosevelt, who said, the purpose of life is to live it. To taste, experience to the utmost. To reach out eagerly and without fear for newer and richer experience.